The new proposed enchante list went up and it looks really impressive. Makes me want roll up a Bard and see what they can do when Rigby and Deryka get them rolled out. But reading the list raised a concern in my mind. Where does, in terms of Warrior Mage and Bardic magic, one end and the other begin?
It's already known that Bards use elemental mana to power their enchantes, now there will finally be enchantes that reflect the nature of their magic. Warrior Mages on the other hand have been much like Moon Mages in the aspect of using a mana type solo. It was pretty cut and dry what would be a Warrior Mage spell and what would be a Bard Enchante. We did not have a situation such as the Cleric and Paladin Guild where mana spells and abilities could cross into another guilds M.O.
Excuse me, that is incorrect...
For awhile now Rangers and Warrior Mages have often bumped heads when it cam into terms of spells and abilities. Even though the domain of Warrior Mages is the Elements and Rangers is Life, the perception of nature encompasses things such as the earth and wind. Many Ranger beseeches and a few spells use wind and earth in their descriptions of actions but make little reference to the life aspect of the ability/spell.
I am not going to worry about that because it does not concern me. What does is the nature of Warrior Mage magic seems to be spreading more and more around as spell list of the game's grow larger. The burn of fire is in other spell, the ability for water to freeze is in other spells. Now, Bards will be gaining access to elemental effects in their enchantes. Where does that leave Warrior Mage Magic? How is they're magic their own? Why can a Warrior Mage force wind and make a target be blown away and a Ranger or Bard can't? What are the basic differences in Clerical holy flame and the flame of a fire shard? Now that Moon Mages can freeze a creature to harm it, would a Warrior Mage spell in the water book that does something similar be considered treading on the Moon Mage guild?
Again I'm not ripping on any guilds ability, the more players can do the more I am enamoured with the game. What I am worried about is what limitations will be place on my primary characters guild now that the other guilds are expanding their capabilites.
Thanks
Vandread
Elemental magic concern. on 01/28/2003 02:45 PM CST
Re: Elemental magic concern. on 01/29/2003 05:21 AM CST
Vandread, I think you are working yourself up over nothing.
Warrior Mages will continue to have powerful spells that directly work with the elements, and they will continue on their path of development (thanks to your WM Team).
Two things you need to realize.
1. It is hard to have a spell effect that doesn't do something that would seem 'elemental' in nature. You have to look at HOW it is doing it though. Is it manipulating that element directly? Or is it manipulating something that just happens to also be wet/cold/hot/electrical/etc?
2. Warrior Mages aren't losing anything by spells in other Guilds having 'elemental like' effects.
IF you still feel that other guilds are treading on WM teritory, then perhaps you can get the WM team to add in more books of elemental magic that NO ONE else can use, then you can be the masters of every element, while the rest of the guilds only have access to the mundane elements like eath, fire, water and air. Of course I don't know how useful it will be having spell books like Helium, Titanium, Mercury... ;P
Eldrad
Warrior Mages will continue to have powerful spells that directly work with the elements, and they will continue on their path of development (thanks to your WM Team).
Two things you need to realize.
1. It is hard to have a spell effect that doesn't do something that would seem 'elemental' in nature. You have to look at HOW it is doing it though. Is it manipulating that element directly? Or is it manipulating something that just happens to also be wet/cold/hot/electrical/etc?
2. Warrior Mages aren't losing anything by spells in other Guilds having 'elemental like' effects.
IF you still feel that other guilds are treading on WM teritory, then perhaps you can get the WM team to add in more books of elemental magic that NO ONE else can use, then you can be the masters of every element, while the rest of the guilds only have access to the mundane elements like eath, fire, water and air. Of course I don't know how useful it will be having spell books like Helium, Titanium, Mercury... ;P
Eldrad
Re: Elemental magic concern. on 01/29/2003 08:36 PM CST
Re: Elemental magic concern. on 01/30/2003 08:55 AM CST
I'm not so much as worked up as growing concerned. In a text based game there is only so much you can do within the limitations of code. Now the DR crew has done some amazing things but there is only so many ways direct damage can be dealt and be unique. I take a look at just the names of the enchantes that are proposed and I'm sitting here in high anticipation. I'm also sitting here and wondering if there are somethings Warrior Mages will not be able to do because of the spread of elemental like abilities around the game.
Bardic magic being based of elemental mana is something that was instituted long ingame before my character was created... I think. But them getting bigger better enchantes is perfectly fine for to me, it's a great addition to the game. I just want to know where the line between Bardic elemental Magic and Warrior Mage elemental Magic exist. I know the name of the enchantes is little to base my concern off of but I still think it merits attention, "Breathe of Storms" "Aether Wolves"?
I like to have fun and do all kinds of different things. For quite awhile now the Warrior Mage guild has been very limited in scope in what kind of stuff they could do. Spells to kill critters and talismans. Talismans and familars were a dead system until Rottcloar took the wheel and has begun steering it in the right direction, but our magic is still very basic... kill. Warrior Mages are more than just killers, they are part scholar. Yet their magic and abilities are being limited to destructive forces, while fun as all get out, it would be nice to explore other uses for the elemental forces, uses that would not only benefit the Warrior Mage but others in the game. I see this becoming less of a possibility with more beseeches and other guild spells effecting the elements and Bardic magic soon to be expanded role.
Little has remained the exclusive domain of the Warrior Mage and I'm worried that it will continue to be this way.
Vandread
Bardic magic being based of elemental mana is something that was instituted long ingame before my character was created... I think. But them getting bigger better enchantes is perfectly fine for to me, it's a great addition to the game. I just want to know where the line between Bardic elemental Magic and Warrior Mage elemental Magic exist. I know the name of the enchantes is little to base my concern off of but I still think it merits attention, "Breathe of Storms" "Aether Wolves"?
I like to have fun and do all kinds of different things. For quite awhile now the Warrior Mage guild has been very limited in scope in what kind of stuff they could do. Spells to kill critters and talismans. Talismans and familars were a dead system until Rottcloar took the wheel and has begun steering it in the right direction, but our magic is still very basic... kill. Warrior Mages are more than just killers, they are part scholar. Yet their magic and abilities are being limited to destructive forces, while fun as all get out, it would be nice to explore other uses for the elemental forces, uses that would not only benefit the Warrior Mage but others in the game. I see this becoming less of a possibility with more beseeches and other guild spells effecting the elements and Bardic magic soon to be expanded role.
Little has remained the exclusive domain of the Warrior Mage and I'm worried that it will continue to be this way.
Vandread
Re: Elemental magic concern. on 01/30/2003 01:02 PM CST
I think what Vandread was trying to say was that he's not so much concerned with other guilds "stealing" stuff from the War Mages, but that he's wondering with all the new additions if there will be any new doors for the War Mage guild to open and expand to, and if they'll be able to or if once again Guild "turf" will be called into play.
Speaking of expanding... what's up with that Weather Control ability that got thrown on the table 2 years ago? That sounded like a blast.
~Katrenos
Speaking of expanding... what's up with that Weather Control ability that got thrown on the table 2 years ago? That sounded like a blast.
~Katrenos
Re: Elemental magic concern. on 01/30/2003 02:12 PM CST
Re: Elemental magic concern. on 01/31/2003 08:33 AM CST
My worse fear is that they will get stuff that their enchante's hint at, and we've been told "Later, if at all". Such as the storm thing. Other fear is that they'll be have massive destructive magic, without the need for target, similar to what HB was(is?) I think it's fairly rediculous that a ranger with 150 PM told me he was able to web people with 200+ evasion.
My fears are just fears until they're founded...if they become founded they'll become rants.
Sylme
My fears are just fears until they're founded...if they become founded they'll become rants.
Sylme
Re: Elemental magic concern. on 01/31/2003 01:38 PM CST
Pardon me for saying this but I don't think you War Mages truely understand what Bardic Enchantes do.
Bards use elemental mana to manipulate music to effect emotions. For example, Rage of Clans to increase the fighting ability by singing a rousing tune of glory and conquest. While Drums of the Snake makes a good steady rhythm, numbing out the distractions of everyday life, letting you concentrate better at what ever task you might be doing.
Bardic Enchantes are area enchantes, basically my Will vs Your will, I win you are distracted, confused, or scared, you win, and I just wasted enough time for someone to put a knife in my chest.
War Mages use elemental mana like a well guided laser, you can literally aim for a critters eye ball and hit it, killing it quite dead with small amout of mana.
In a nutshell: Bards area enchantes are emotion driven (I can never see how a Bard could "control" the weather as some people seem to think), while War Mages use percision casting to decimate critters.
Qivalon~ My own random thoughts
PS Now that I think about it, we Bards have been asking for an enchante that lets us create an umbrella of some sort so we can play our instruments outside in the rain, snow, sleet or hail. So maybe that is what some people are thinking about "weather control"?
Bards use elemental mana to manipulate music to effect emotions. For example, Rage of Clans to increase the fighting ability by singing a rousing tune of glory and conquest. While Drums of the Snake makes a good steady rhythm, numbing out the distractions of everyday life, letting you concentrate better at what ever task you might be doing.
Bardic Enchantes are area enchantes, basically my Will vs Your will, I win you are distracted, confused, or scared, you win, and I just wasted enough time for someone to put a knife in my chest.
War Mages use elemental mana like a well guided laser, you can literally aim for a critters eye ball and hit it, killing it quite dead with small amout of mana.
In a nutshell: Bards area enchantes are emotion driven (I can never see how a Bard could "control" the weather as some people seem to think), while War Mages use percision casting to decimate critters.
Qivalon~ My own random thoughts
PS Now that I think about it, we Bards have been asking for an enchante that lets us create an umbrella of some sort so we can play our instruments outside in the rain, snow, sleet or hail. So maybe that is what some people are thinking about "weather control"?
Re: Elemental magic concern. on 01/31/2003 02:13 PM CST
>>PS Now that I think about it, we Bards have been asking for an enchante that lets us create an umbrella of some sort so we can play our instruments outside in the rain, snow, sleet or hail. So maybe that is what some people are thinking about "weather control"?
No. I only have a vague idea about it, but 2 SimuCons ago I believe someone came back with info that there was a weather control system in the works, or being developed. It was gonna be moon Mage controlled, us War Mages threw a fit (:P) and I believe they changed it to a shared system. I've not heard a peep since.
~Katrenos
No. I only have a vague idea about it, but 2 SimuCons ago I believe someone came back with info that there was a weather control system in the works, or being developed. It was gonna be moon Mage controlled, us War Mages threw a fit (:P) and I believe they changed it to a shared system. I've not heard a peep since.
~Katrenos
Re: Elemental magic concern. on 01/31/2003 04:59 PM CST
<<No. I only have a vague idea about it, but 2 SimuCons ago I believe someone came back with info that there was a weather control system in the works, or being developed. It was gonna be moon Mage controlled, us War Mages threw a fit (:P) and I believe they changed it to a shared system. I've not heard a peep since.
The way I heard it was that it had been placed by Solomon to a 'wish list' of things he would like to see developed for the game but for which there were no actual plans, and that he had listed it under moon mages off the cuff. There was a board ruckus over who's territory it would actually be and I seem to remember being assured that any such system would be warrior mage, but that no such system was actually under development or even planned. It was just on a list of possible future development directions.
The way I heard it was that it had been placed by Solomon to a 'wish list' of things he would like to see developed for the game but for which there were no actual plans, and that he had listed it under moon mages off the cuff. There was a board ruckus over who's territory it would actually be and I seem to remember being assured that any such system would be warrior mage, but that no such system was actually under development or even planned. It was just on a list of possible future development directions.
Re: Elemental magic concern. on 01/31/2003 05:13 PM CST
>>Pardon me for saying this but I don't think you War Mages truely understand what Bardic Enchantes do.
>>Bards use elemental mana to manipulate music to effect emotions.
Music itself, in the form of skillfully manipulated sound, has a strong hold over the elements. It may be of a frequency to cause sympathetic vibrations in the elements surrounding you. An example would be a deep bass note that rattles tin cans, or a high C note that shatters glass. The entire world around is subject to the vibrations coursing constantly through them, from the simplicity of speech to the glaring ferocity of a horn piercing the air, causing physical pain.
It is because of these things that some enchantes you will see (or hear) may also have spectacular elemental effects that reach throughout the room: The power to summon the fury of a storm, send objects into flame, or bring forth the earth itself to temple and rage. This combined with the subtle nature of enhanced music upon living beings gives bards both strength and power over any area of magic that they wish to become proficient in, and enough variety to aid them in whatever path in life they pursue.
<Deryka; Bard FAQs>
I do believe you are wrong.
-Frogspawn
>>Bards use elemental mana to manipulate music to effect emotions.
Music itself, in the form of skillfully manipulated sound, has a strong hold over the elements. It may be of a frequency to cause sympathetic vibrations in the elements surrounding you. An example would be a deep bass note that rattles tin cans, or a high C note that shatters glass. The entire world around is subject to the vibrations coursing constantly through them, from the simplicity of speech to the glaring ferocity of a horn piercing the air, causing physical pain.
It is because of these things that some enchantes you will see (or hear) may also have spectacular elemental effects that reach throughout the room: The power to summon the fury of a storm, send objects into flame, or bring forth the earth itself to temple and rage. This combined with the subtle nature of enhanced music upon living beings gives bards both strength and power over any area of magic that they wish to become proficient in, and enough variety to aid them in whatever path in life they pursue.
<Deryka; Bard FAQs>
I do believe you are wrong.
-Frogspawn
Re: Elemental magic concern. on 01/31/2003 05:37 PM CST
>I do believe you are wrong.
True, if the Enchantes come as Deryka suggests, but for the life of me I can't see how music can encourage a storm, or burst things into flame. There has to be some sensibility when it comes to enchantes or magic.
Now, I can see shattering items if Bards could target an item, but I don't imagine us getting a targetting req.
And I will be honset, if I wanted direct control of the elements to set things on fire, or blast it into infinity or cause the earth to attack, I would change guilds to the War mage and cast Fire Shard, that PW spell (don't actually know the name), and then Fist of Earth(?)
Until the time comes when Bards can do that I will go on saying that Bards effect emotion.
Qivalon~
PS I suppose you someone could counter by re-quoting Deryka and say "It may be of a frequency to cause sympathetic vibrations in the elements surrounding you."
True, if the Enchantes come as Deryka suggests, but for the life of me I can't see how music can encourage a storm, or burst things into flame. There has to be some sensibility when it comes to enchantes or magic.
Now, I can see shattering items if Bards could target an item, but I don't imagine us getting a targetting req.
And I will be honset, if I wanted direct control of the elements to set things on fire, or blast it into infinity or cause the earth to attack, I would change guilds to the War mage and cast Fire Shard, that PW spell (don't actually know the name), and then Fist of Earth(?)
Until the time comes when Bards can do that I will go on saying that Bards effect emotion.
Qivalon~
PS I suppose you someone could counter by re-quoting Deryka and say "It may be of a frequency to cause sympathetic vibrations in the elements surrounding you."
Re: Elemental magic concern. on 01/31/2003 09:58 PM CST
Re: Elemental magic concern. on 01/31/2003 10:04 PM CST
>>True, if the Enchantes come as Deryka suggests, but for the life of me I can't see how music can encourage a storm, or burst things into flame. Good. That's kind of the entire point. -Frogspawn
Music alone can't, but don't forget that enchantes are based on elemental mana woven with music, not just straight music. There IS a bit of a difference.
Dash & the gang
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Music alone can't, but don't forget that enchantes are based on elemental mana woven with music, not just straight music. There IS a bit of a difference.
Dash & the gang
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Re: Elemental magic concern. on 01/31/2003 10:05 PM CST
Re: Elemental magic concern. on 02/02/2003 11:19 PM CST
Re: Elemental magic concern. on 02/03/2003 12:45 AM CST
Re: Elemental magic concern. on 02/03/2003 07:24 AM CST
>True, if the Enchantes come as Deryka suggests, but for the life of me I can't see how music can encourage a storm, or burst things into flame.
That would be the power of illusion. Bards' have for a time been able to do basic illusionary magics (ex. Resolve, sleight of hand). The new enchantes expand upon years of bardic wants, needs, and expectations for a fully fledged out guild.
>My fiddle has a devestating 6 tic-tacs of raw elemental fury.
Tic-tac-toe, I wish I could say I'm surprised I hear whining even before anyone actually knows what each of the new enchantes on the proposed list does. But of course I'm not, and on the whole stepping on other guild turf...on the day Barbs give us back dance, I'm sure we'll give ya'll as many aether wolves and storms as you want.
-Derivan
Come have an ale and check out the Tavern Troupe! Elanthia's premier and Zoluren's official performing order. http://www.taverntroupe.net
That would be the power of illusion. Bards' have for a time been able to do basic illusionary magics (ex. Resolve, sleight of hand). The new enchantes expand upon years of bardic wants, needs, and expectations for a fully fledged out guild.
>My fiddle has a devestating 6 tic-tacs of raw elemental fury.
Tic-tac-toe, I wish I could say I'm surprised I hear whining even before anyone actually knows what each of the new enchantes on the proposed list does. But of course I'm not, and on the whole stepping on other guild turf...on the day Barbs give us back dance, I'm sure we'll give ya'll as many aether wolves and storms as you want.
-Derivan
Come have an ale and check out the Tavern Troupe! Elanthia's premier and Zoluren's official performing order. http://www.taverntroupe.net
Re: Elemental magic concern. on 02/03/2003 10:25 AM CST
Re: Elemental magic concern. on 02/03/2003 10:33 AM CST
We, as bards collectively, don't see a TM-enchante happening. If anything, it'd be directed music that wouldn't use TM. I don't know if that makes a difference to you. We see it as focusing the musical aspect of the enchante, not the magical.
As for dealing more damage than you could... I think we've yelled long enough about wanting a damaging enchante, so we'll probably get at least one... and the level of damage would depend on the Bard, really - just like w/ a WM or anyone else. So Niprud or Nystarn or Khory (all in the 75+ circle range) would be able to hurt most folks with a damaging enchante, but not someone like Galain or Sebashtin (sp?). Which makes complete sense in the skills sense.
Espritia
As for dealing more damage than you could... I think we've yelled long enough about wanting a damaging enchante, so we'll probably get at least one... and the level of damage would depend on the Bard, really - just like w/ a WM or anyone else. So Niprud or Nystarn or Khory (all in the 75+ circle range) would be able to hurt most folks with a damaging enchante, but not someone like Galain or Sebashtin (sp?). Which makes complete sense in the skills sense.
Espritia
Re: Elemental magic concern. on 02/04/2003 12:52 AM CST
I think the main point has been lost somewhere.
Bards got elemental as their mana type by chance and it was decided not to make another mana type just for bards. The others contradict, elemental just leaves us asking why.
What a bard posted earlier about enchants effecting people, not the elements... Great, that's all nice and dandy, modifying a person's stats and effective experience is plenty a boost in combat. Controlling a critter with song to have it fall over or even stab itself... fine. Getting elemental effects by a default decision long ago is uncreative to say the least.
Bards will soon relatively be on par with a warrior mage who plays music and also has a group of enhancing spells. Just to quickly interject it, I once again restate Aether Wolves? ::chuckles::
Majebrad
Bards got elemental as their mana type by chance and it was decided not to make another mana type just for bards. The others contradict, elemental just leaves us asking why.
What a bard posted earlier about enchants effecting people, not the elements... Great, that's all nice and dandy, modifying a person's stats and effective experience is plenty a boost in combat. Controlling a critter with song to have it fall over or even stab itself... fine. Getting elemental effects by a default decision long ago is uncreative to say the least.
Bards will soon relatively be on par with a warrior mage who plays music and also has a group of enhancing spells. Just to quickly interject it, I once again restate Aether Wolves? ::chuckles::
Majebrad
Re: Elemental magic concern. on 02/04/2003 01:10 AM CST
>>Yes, Bards getting anything useful out of elemental magics is absolutely intangible and should never come into being.
I don't care whether bards get anything useful out of elemental magic. I'd prefer they do, but if they didn't, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.
My problem is that certain parts of the proposed enchante system {some enchantes you will see (or hear) may also have spectacular elemental effects that reach throughout the room: The power to summon the fury of a storm, send objects into flame, or bring forth the earth itself to temple and rage.} are clearly stepping on WM toes. Look at that mage over there, bringing the wrath of fire down upon his foes! Oh wait, he has a fiddle, he must be a bard!
If you want to use elemental magic to enhance the power that music has over people and creatures, be my guest. But leave the manipulation of raw elements to the WM's (and occasionally rangers). No amount of banjo playing should ever set something on fire.
-Frogspawn
I don't care whether bards get anything useful out of elemental magic. I'd prefer they do, but if they didn't, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.
My problem is that certain parts of the proposed enchante system {some enchantes you will see (or hear) may also have spectacular elemental effects that reach throughout the room: The power to summon the fury of a storm, send objects into flame, or bring forth the earth itself to temple and rage.} are clearly stepping on WM toes. Look at that mage over there, bringing the wrath of fire down upon his foes! Oh wait, he has a fiddle, he must be a bard!
If you want to use elemental magic to enhance the power that music has over people and creatures, be my guest. But leave the manipulation of raw elements to the WM's (and occasionally rangers). No amount of banjo playing should ever set something on fire.
-Frogspawn
Re: Elemental magic concern. on 02/04/2003 01:47 AM CST
>If you want to use elemental magic to enhance the power that music has over people and creatures, be my guest. But leave the manipulation of raw elements to the WM's (and occasionally rangers).
So, yeah. RANGERS, they can screw around with raw elements. But not bards. That doesn't make sense, man. Bards use the same mana. Rangers may be in touch with nature, but that doesn't give them elemental fury.
>No amount of banjo playing should ever set something on fire.
Frogspawn, if I ever catch you playing a banjo, I'm fireballing you.
(Ok, so that would get me killed.)
-Eudren
So, yeah. RANGERS, they can screw around with raw elements. But not bards. That doesn't make sense, man. Bards use the same mana. Rangers may be in touch with nature, but that doesn't give them elemental fury.
>No amount of banjo playing should ever set something on fire.
Frogspawn, if I ever catch you playing a banjo, I'm fireballing you.
(Ok, so that would get me killed.)
-Eudren
Re: Elemental magic concern. on 02/04/2003 03:44 AM CST
Re: Elemental magic concern. on 02/04/2003 07:24 AM CST
>I want a spell that summons a fire elemantal who is an expert flute player that can play a song that makes it so I can do all the survival stuff easier.
Hey thats a good idea, I want one too!
One problem though... elemental fire mages don't play music, they have no fingers, and besides, there are no Winds enchantes yet.
Qivalon~
PS work your charisma people, you are going to need it against Bardic magic.
Hey thats a good idea, I want one too!
One problem though... elemental fire mages don't play music, they have no fingers, and besides, there are no Winds enchantes yet.
Qivalon~
PS work your charisma people, you are going to need it against Bardic magic.
Re: Elemental magic concern. on 02/04/2003 09:42 AM CST
> My problem is that certain parts of the proposed enchante system are clearly stepping on WM toes.
I can appreciate that...to a degree. On the other hand, to be perfectly blunt, at this late stage in the game, pretty much ANYTHING they do for enchantes is going to be stepping on someone's toes. And of course, that's leaving out the fact that a great many of our enchantes have been passed out to other guilds already in one form or another. (seeing invisible? Now everyone can do that. Increasing harness? Clerics just got that. Increasing survivals? Get a ranger. Calming critters or making them go prone? Call a moonie. Increase mana in the room? Call any spellcaster except a warrior mage)
Seriously...there's not a heck of lot they CAN do that isn't going to step on someone's toes. Lilt? That's gonna step on empath, warrior mage, AND cleric toes. Rage of Clans? Barb toes. Drums of Snakes? Ranger toes (and probably thief toes too). Meraud's Blessings? Cleric toes. Nexus? Pretty much everyone these days. Eye of Kertigen? Moon mage and warrior mage toes, undoubtedly. Albreda's Balm? Moon mage toes. Demriss' Resolve? Given that it's an illusion and that's now supposed to be moon mage turf (despite the fact we've always had several illusions on the design board and one live for years now...) so we'll be stomping hard on their toes. That's just the one's already existing - things like Damaris's Lullaby will undoubtedly step on empath toes, and I'm sure paladins will get worked up if we actually get Naming of Tears to do what it's supposed to do - stepping on their toes, ya know.
I seriously doubt anyone is going to be mistaking bards for warrior mages, and if they do, then I'd have to agree something got screwed up somewhere along the way. I don't wanna be a wanna-be warrior mage any more than Frogspawn wants me to be, but I honestly don't think there's any real danger of that mistake being made. I suspect it'll end up that bards mostly have elemental utility magics with a few combat things tossed in, while warrior mages will have a lot of combat things with a few utility magics tossed in. In any case, toes are going to be trampled, no matter WHAT they do...so worrying about it is completely pointless. Maybe I'm silly, but I actually trust Rigby to make sure that warrior mage and bardic magic remain distinctive, and complimentary rather than overlapping - which would be a win-win scenario for both guilds if they treated it as such.
Dash & the gang
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I can appreciate that...to a degree. On the other hand, to be perfectly blunt, at this late stage in the game, pretty much ANYTHING they do for enchantes is going to be stepping on someone's toes. And of course, that's leaving out the fact that a great many of our enchantes have been passed out to other guilds already in one form or another. (seeing invisible? Now everyone can do that. Increasing harness? Clerics just got that. Increasing survivals? Get a ranger. Calming critters or making them go prone? Call a moonie. Increase mana in the room? Call any spellcaster except a warrior mage)
Seriously...there's not a heck of lot they CAN do that isn't going to step on someone's toes. Lilt? That's gonna step on empath, warrior mage, AND cleric toes. Rage of Clans? Barb toes. Drums of Snakes? Ranger toes (and probably thief toes too). Meraud's Blessings? Cleric toes. Nexus? Pretty much everyone these days. Eye of Kertigen? Moon mage and warrior mage toes, undoubtedly. Albreda's Balm? Moon mage toes. Demriss' Resolve? Given that it's an illusion and that's now supposed to be moon mage turf (despite the fact we've always had several illusions on the design board and one live for years now...) so we'll be stomping hard on their toes. That's just the one's already existing - things like Damaris's Lullaby will undoubtedly step on empath toes, and I'm sure paladins will get worked up if we actually get Naming of Tears to do what it's supposed to do - stepping on their toes, ya know.
I seriously doubt anyone is going to be mistaking bards for warrior mages, and if they do, then I'd have to agree something got screwed up somewhere along the way. I don't wanna be a wanna-be warrior mage any more than Frogspawn wants me to be, but I honestly don't think there's any real danger of that mistake being made. I suspect it'll end up that bards mostly have elemental utility magics with a few combat things tossed in, while warrior mages will have a lot of combat things with a few utility magics tossed in. In any case, toes are going to be trampled, no matter WHAT they do...so worrying about it is completely pointless. Maybe I'm silly, but I actually trust Rigby to make sure that warrior mage and bardic magic remain distinctive, and complimentary rather than overlapping - which would be a win-win scenario for both guilds if they treated it as such.
Dash & the gang
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Re: Elemental magic concern. on 02/04/2003 10:20 AM CST
I'm going to re-post these two posts here to see if it offers any clarification about the various concerns and issues that seem to be arising in this thread. The double-lines denote where actual boundaries in posts are. For future reference, the first post can be found in the Bardic Category's FAQs folder, while the second can be found under the Bardic Category's Suggestions and Discussions on Enchantes and Special Abilities.
Please read it ALL before posting any further conjecture in response, and take the documents as a whole. Taking certain lines out of context of the others leads to only misinformation and unneeded anxiety over misunderstanding the true nature of the document.
Deryka
Bard Guru
DR-DERYKA
Tree-dweller
What is an Enchante? ? on 1/25/2003 12:29:58 PM 7
There has been much discussion and debate amongst bards regarding just what an enchante is. Is it like a spell, and composed of patterns and matrices? Or is it composed of music that is given life by magic?
Both of these are true.
A little background on magic: Spells are composed of patterns and matrices.
Pattern spells have a single effect that manifests, though the impact of that single effect is dependant upon the amount of mana that the mage is able to channel into the creation of the pattern itself. Stronger patterns could create more pronounced effects or longer durations of the effects involved.
Matrices are composed a pattern that serves as a template for a cascading sequence of ever more complex patterns, ones that manifest themselves as the mage is able to channel more mana through it. As the initial pattern grows stronger, it will spontaneously grow more complex, causing the effects of the spell itself to vary and grow.
This is, of course, a greatly simplified explanation. Still follow me, though?
Enchantes are examples of elementally-powered magical patterns and matrices created from the music that the bard performs. Music is often said to be mathematical in nature, and so it is. It can form patterns, whether simple or complex in nature, and so long as the bard has the necessary tools and skill, he or she should be able to sustain the pattern.
Due to the inherent nature of music, enchantes will often have the power to eventually form matrices, or cascading patterns, as the music forming the matter for each one becomes increasingly more complex and colorful. Thus, as more skill is gained in the areas of both music and magic, additional effects from enchantes may become apparent to the performer utilizing them.
Enchantes have the potential to reach as far as the voice or song of a performing bard can be heard, or so quietly reiterated that they only affect the singer themself. Very often enchantes themselves merely amplify the music that conveys them, allowing the most powerful and subtle effects: Stirring one's blood to bring them prowess in combat, calming them into a peaceful sleep, or amplifying the skill they already possess by focusing their mind on a specific area of knowledge.
It is on the strength of music that the bard performs, and their control of elemental that they channel through these patterns that the special effects of an enchante are created. However, the effects of enchantes, in and of themselves, need not be musical -- music is merely the medium through which they are brought into being.
Music itself, in the form of skillfully manipulated sound, has a strong hold over the elements. It may be of a frequency to cause sympathetic vibrations in the elements surrounding you. An example would be a deep bass note that rattles tin cans, or a high C note that shatters glass. The entire world around is subject to the vibrations coursing constantly through them, from the simplicity of speech to the glaring ferocity of a horn piercing the air, causing physical pain.
It is because of these things that some enchantes you will see (or hear) may also have spectacular elemental effects that reach throughout the room: The power to summon the fury of a storm, send objects into flame, or bring forth the earth itself to temple and rage. This combined with the subtle nature of enhanced music upon living beings gives bards both strength and power over any area of magic that they wish to become proficient in, and enough variety to aid them in whatever path in life they pursue.
That said -- I think it's plain that enchantes are a unique form of pattern manipulation, and in and of themselves are very different from what is commonly referred to as 'spells'. Just because the two are similar is no need to lower our standards. <scoffs and looks huffily at the mage guilds>
<winks> This satisfy some questions?
Deryka
DR-DERYKA
Tree-dweller
What is an Enchante? (Responses) ? on 1/25/2003 7:41:06 PM 1777
I seriously doubt we are in any danger of becoming 'musical warrior mages'. Rigby and I have had some very long talks as we worked through enchante ideas about what just does and doesn't constitute something that would be suitable for a bardic enchante -- or whether it was more suitable for a spell. I think we have a solid grounding down of the differences between the magics of the two kindred guilds and, while some small overlap may be seen, each guild will retain their own unique niche.
Deryka
<< <<<It is because of these things that some enchantes you will see (or hear) may also have spectacular elemental effects that reach throughout the room: The power to summon the fury of a storm, send objects into flame, or bring forth the earth itself to temple and rage.>>>
So you ARE musical war mages ::ducks::
I sincerely hope that the various enchantes that have effects like this are different enough to be called the Bard's own, and not a copy of another. I don't think Bards want to be copies of War Mages. Yes you obviously have other enchantes (like lilt, rage, balm, etc), but the Bard guild needs distinction, not to be a copy.
It's good to see the definition of an enchante, just don't turn them into musical War Mages, that would be a cheap way to fix the guild.
-Windreaper, the player of
(and yes, I still play a bard) >>
Please read it ALL before posting any further conjecture in response, and take the documents as a whole. Taking certain lines out of context of the others leads to only misinformation and unneeded anxiety over misunderstanding the true nature of the document.
Deryka
Bard Guru
DR-DERYKA
Tree-dweller
What is an Enchante? ? on 1/25/2003 12:29:58 PM 7
There has been much discussion and debate amongst bards regarding just what an enchante is. Is it like a spell, and composed of patterns and matrices? Or is it composed of music that is given life by magic?
Both of these are true.
A little background on magic: Spells are composed of patterns and matrices.
Pattern spells have a single effect that manifests, though the impact of that single effect is dependant upon the amount of mana that the mage is able to channel into the creation of the pattern itself. Stronger patterns could create more pronounced effects or longer durations of the effects involved.
Matrices are composed a pattern that serves as a template for a cascading sequence of ever more complex patterns, ones that manifest themselves as the mage is able to channel more mana through it. As the initial pattern grows stronger, it will spontaneously grow more complex, causing the effects of the spell itself to vary and grow.
This is, of course, a greatly simplified explanation. Still follow me, though?
Enchantes are examples of elementally-powered magical patterns and matrices created from the music that the bard performs. Music is often said to be mathematical in nature, and so it is. It can form patterns, whether simple or complex in nature, and so long as the bard has the necessary tools and skill, he or she should be able to sustain the pattern.
Due to the inherent nature of music, enchantes will often have the power to eventually form matrices, or cascading patterns, as the music forming the matter for each one becomes increasingly more complex and colorful. Thus, as more skill is gained in the areas of both music and magic, additional effects from enchantes may become apparent to the performer utilizing them.
Enchantes have the potential to reach as far as the voice or song of a performing bard can be heard, or so quietly reiterated that they only affect the singer themself. Very often enchantes themselves merely amplify the music that conveys them, allowing the most powerful and subtle effects: Stirring one's blood to bring them prowess in combat, calming them into a peaceful sleep, or amplifying the skill they already possess by focusing their mind on a specific area of knowledge.
It is on the strength of music that the bard performs, and their control of elemental that they channel through these patterns that the special effects of an enchante are created. However, the effects of enchantes, in and of themselves, need not be musical -- music is merely the medium through which they are brought into being.
Music itself, in the form of skillfully manipulated sound, has a strong hold over the elements. It may be of a frequency to cause sympathetic vibrations in the elements surrounding you. An example would be a deep bass note that rattles tin cans, or a high C note that shatters glass. The entire world around is subject to the vibrations coursing constantly through them, from the simplicity of speech to the glaring ferocity of a horn piercing the air, causing physical pain.
It is because of these things that some enchantes you will see (or hear) may also have spectacular elemental effects that reach throughout the room: The power to summon the fury of a storm, send objects into flame, or bring forth the earth itself to temple and rage. This combined with the subtle nature of enhanced music upon living beings gives bards both strength and power over any area of magic that they wish to become proficient in, and enough variety to aid them in whatever path in life they pursue.
That said -- I think it's plain that enchantes are a unique form of pattern manipulation, and in and of themselves are very different from what is commonly referred to as 'spells'. Just because the two are similar is no need to lower our standards. <scoffs and looks huffily at the mage guilds>
<winks> This satisfy some questions?
Deryka
DR-DERYKA
Tree-dweller
What is an Enchante? (Responses) ? on 1/25/2003 7:41:06 PM 1777
I seriously doubt we are in any danger of becoming 'musical warrior mages'. Rigby and I have had some very long talks as we worked through enchante ideas about what just does and doesn't constitute something that would be suitable for a bardic enchante -- or whether it was more suitable for a spell. I think we have a solid grounding down of the differences between the magics of the two kindred guilds and, while some small overlap may be seen, each guild will retain their own unique niche.
Deryka
<< <<<It is because of these things that some enchantes you will see (or hear) may also have spectacular elemental effects that reach throughout the room: The power to summon the fury of a storm, send objects into flame, or bring forth the earth itself to temple and rage.>>>
So you ARE musical war mages ::ducks::
I sincerely hope that the various enchantes that have effects like this are different enough to be called the Bard's own, and not a copy of another. I don't think Bards want to be copies of War Mages. Yes you obviously have other enchantes (like lilt, rage, balm, etc), but the Bard guild needs distinction, not to be a copy.
It's good to see the definition of an enchante, just don't turn them into musical War Mages, that would be a cheap way to fix the guild.
-Windreaper, the player of
(and yes, I still play a bard) >>
Re: Elemental magic concern. on 02/04/2003 11:49 AM CST
No offense Deryka, but I don't see how that brings anything into greater clarity. Maybe I'm just daft or something...
I havent commented on the situation on the boards, basicaly because there is nothing to comment about YET. We've already voiced a concern over the boundries of our turf; its time to sit back and let the GMs do their work. If and when enchantes are relased that we feel corss the line... then we should complain =)
-P
I havent commented on the situation on the boards, basicaly because there is nothing to comment about YET. We've already voiced a concern over the boundries of our turf; its time to sit back and let the GMs do their work. If and when enchantes are relased that we feel corss the line... then we should complain =)
-P
Re: Elemental magic concern. on 02/04/2003 11:55 AM CST
> If and when enchantes are relased that we feel corss the line... then we should complain =)
Exactly.
Dash & the gang
Curious about DragonRealms Platinum? Find out more at http://members.tripod.com/cervanntes/DragonRealms/index.htm
Exactly.
Dash & the gang
Curious about DragonRealms Platinum? Find out more at http://members.tripod.com/cervanntes/DragonRealms/index.htm
Re: Elemental magic concern. on 02/04/2003 12:29 PM CST
>>If and when enchantes are relased that we feel corss the line... then we should complain =)
Not making a statement one way or another on enchantes, but I felt a need to point something out.
Historically, player complaints are often ignored after the fact. If you want something modified, it would seem the best time to encourage the change is before it has been implemented.
Anabasis
Not making a statement one way or another on enchantes, but I felt a need to point something out.
Historically, player complaints are often ignored after the fact. If you want something modified, it would seem the best time to encourage the change is before it has been implemented.
Anabasis
Re: Elemental magic concern. on 02/04/2003 01:22 PM CST
Re: Elemental magic concern. on 02/04/2003 01:26 PM CST
>>>Historically, player complaints are often ignored after the fact. If you want something modified, it would seem the best time to encourage the change is before it has been implemented.
>>>Anabasis
In that case, I must protest the sheer audacity of war mages getting flute-playing undead war mammoth companions... <insert 20 line rant here>...
After all, if I don't complain about it before it happens, I'll be ignored after it happens...
How can you want a modification of things which have neither been described nor defined, but merely named?
Now I'll admit, just because you're paranoid doesn't mean people aren't out to get you, but it doesn't mean they are either,
Meigs
>>>Anabasis
In that case, I must protest the sheer audacity of war mages getting flute-playing undead war mammoth companions... <insert 20 line rant here>...
After all, if I don't complain about it before it happens, I'll be ignored after it happens...
How can you want a modification of things which have neither been described nor defined, but merely named?
Now I'll admit, just because you're paranoid doesn't mean people aren't out to get you, but it doesn't mean they are either,
Meigs
Re: Elemental magic concern. on 02/04/2003 01:27 PM CST
Re: Elemental magic concern. on 02/04/2003 01:52 PM CST
>>How can you want a modification of things which have neither been described nor defined, but merely named?
Specific you, or general you?
Me in particular? I don't give a damn. I said as much in my post where I said I wasn't contributing an opinon on the subject of enchantes. They could give bards enchantes that copy every one of the other guilds' special abilites and it probably wouldn't affect my gameplay in the least. Yah for Bards!
WMs in general? Any WM player who has been around a few years can tell you about the debacles over Mantle of Flame, Purify Water, or Poison Cloud that involved other guilds. Two of the three spells I just mentioned were either nerfed, or completely removed because of player complaints before they were ever released.
Yet try to get the staff to budge on anything after it has already been released, and you are fighting an uphill battle. How long have people been complaining about the Leucros area that is just now seeing attention? Unless it is effecting the game on a system level, something percieved as broken or wrong can take literally years to see action taken.
In all justice, this gap has narrowed in recent years, but it does still exist.
No offense intended to anyone on staff who may feel slighted, as I said, I'm only pointing out a trend.
Ana
Specific you, or general you?
Me in particular? I don't give a damn. I said as much in my post where I said I wasn't contributing an opinon on the subject of enchantes. They could give bards enchantes that copy every one of the other guilds' special abilites and it probably wouldn't affect my gameplay in the least. Yah for Bards!
WMs in general? Any WM player who has been around a few years can tell you about the debacles over Mantle of Flame, Purify Water, or Poison Cloud that involved other guilds. Two of the three spells I just mentioned were either nerfed, or completely removed because of player complaints before they were ever released.
Yet try to get the staff to budge on anything after it has already been released, and you are fighting an uphill battle. How long have people been complaining about the Leucros area that is just now seeing attention? Unless it is effecting the game on a system level, something percieved as broken or wrong can take literally years to see action taken.
In all justice, this gap has narrowed in recent years, but it does still exist.
No offense intended to anyone on staff who may feel slighted, as I said, I'm only pointing out a trend.
Ana
Re: Elemental magic concern. on 02/04/2003 01:58 PM CST
Re: Elemental magic concern. on 02/04/2003 02:20 PM CST
Thank you very much Deryka for taking the time to come and comment, but it doesn't address the concern in my mind. Bards are long overdue for some really cool abilities. In no means do I mean for you to lower your standards of what Bards should get, I can't remember what GM or player said it "Let's do what would be fun or exciting, and then figure out what limitations should be put on it." So go hog wild, I'm not afraid of what your Bards are going to be able to do. What I'm afraid of is what Warrior Mages wil not be able to do.
DISCLAIMER:
I have no idea what the staff had planned for this enchant just using an example of what worries me that MAY happen.
Aether Wolves, saw someone mention what a proposed spell that was suggested earlier. Summoned aether wolves for every member in the party of the bard that invokes the enchante. Now the first trick is summoning, well... that's cool many guilds can now 'summon' magical creatures to aid them. And from Deryka's post this would fit well within the scope of Bardic Magic, and dammit if it fits run with it. Secondly they are composed of aether, the mysterious element that can form cloaks, whips and some think Warrior Mage's familiars. Finally the creatures involved are going to take the shape of wolves... Well according to our man Rotty, War Mages should not concern themselves with this so I'll leave it alone.
So, if Bards were to get a enchante like this, would it mean that warrior mages would not be able to summon aethereal wolv... (I didn't say that) creatures that would come and protect their party? If Warrior Mages got something similar would it be treading on the "turf" of the Bards guild, or taking away a guild uniqueness? That's a hard design question I'm sure, and something Deryka and Rigby I'm sure have touched one, somewhere.
I love putting ideas on the boards most of them for the Warrior Mage guild, now if I am to suggest a spell or abilitiy envolving the elements are there certain things that will have to differentiate why it would be in one or the others guild domains?
I've rambled on long enough, where's that nice fella that summarized my previous post so well...
Van-
Oderint dum metaunt
-dread
DISCLAIMER:
I have no idea what the staff had planned for this enchant just using an example of what worries me that MAY happen.
Aether Wolves, saw someone mention what a proposed spell that was suggested earlier. Summoned aether wolves for every member in the party of the bard that invokes the enchante. Now the first trick is summoning, well... that's cool many guilds can now 'summon' magical creatures to aid them. And from Deryka's post this would fit well within the scope of Bardic Magic, and dammit if it fits run with it. Secondly they are composed of aether, the mysterious element that can form cloaks, whips and some think Warrior Mage's familiars. Finally the creatures involved are going to take the shape of wolves... Well according to our man Rotty, War Mages should not concern themselves with this so I'll leave it alone.
So, if Bards were to get a enchante like this, would it mean that warrior mages would not be able to summon aethereal wolv... (I didn't say that) creatures that would come and protect their party? If Warrior Mages got something similar would it be treading on the "turf" of the Bards guild, or taking away a guild uniqueness? That's a hard design question I'm sure, and something Deryka and Rigby I'm sure have touched one, somewhere.
I love putting ideas on the boards most of them for the Warrior Mage guild, now if I am to suggest a spell or abilitiy envolving the elements are there certain things that will have to differentiate why it would be in one or the others guild domains?
I've rambled on long enough, where's that nice fella that summarized my previous post so well...
Van-
Oderint dum metaunt
-dread
Re: Elemental magic concern. on 02/04/2003 03:28 PM CST
<<So, yeah. RANGERS, they can screw around with raw elements. But not bards. That doesn't make sense, man. Bards use the same mana. Rangers may be in touch with nature, but that doesn't give them elemental fury.
She was referencing rangers in an attempt to point out what happened with them and their crawl into the manipulation of the elements. It directly applies to this stuation. A guild needs new abilities that happen to share a few simularities with warrior mages, in this instance the fluke that bards got elemental mana as their type.. and wham they start to produce element manipulation.
<<Deryka's Reposting
Okay... the resonance thing to produce... a thunderclap (heh), vertigo (heh), bursting stuff into flame (not going to go into it)... sure that can fly a lil bit. But... aether manipulation ie aether wolves? Creating storms with noise? ::scratches his head:: I can't wait for the Flame Shout enchante. exhale hog You turn your head towards a musk hog and shout! Your breathe ignites as it streams towards the musk hog! <insert dead musk hog>
Majebrad
She was referencing rangers in an attempt to point out what happened with them and their crawl into the manipulation of the elements. It directly applies to this stuation. A guild needs new abilities that happen to share a few simularities with warrior mages, in this instance the fluke that bards got elemental mana as their type.. and wham they start to produce element manipulation.
<<Deryka's Reposting
Okay... the resonance thing to produce... a thunderclap (heh), vertigo (heh), bursting stuff into flame (not going to go into it)... sure that can fly a lil bit. But... aether manipulation ie aether wolves? Creating storms with noise? ::scratches his head:: I can't wait for the Flame Shout enchante. exhale hog You turn your head towards a musk hog and shout! Your breathe ignites as it streams towards the musk hog! <insert dead musk hog>
Majebrad