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>> I'd also like to ask for some verification on what is meant by "magic prime" in relation to "magic tert". It was my impression that prime/secondary/tertiery were ONLY used in reference to learning rate.
That would be basically correct. There is some small crossover in guild definitions being tied to skills in associated skillsets (and the lines becoming blurred from the player perspective).
>> But several of the posts in this thread make us of these terms to "prove" why one or the other guild can or cannot have a certain spell or ability. I haven't sifted through hundreds of posts to find an answer in relation to magic but I haven't seen GM responses confirming this impression in other folders.
You'll likely only find such posts coming from players.
GM Damissak
The difference in ranks between a "prime" and "tert" magic user is, however, an item of concern when discussing shared spells in a practical way. It is the reason I shy from a shared magical ability between pallies and clerics. As a 36th cleric, I probably have a good bit more magic skill than a pallie near by circle, on average. A spell designed to be effective at 250 ranks might be great for me, but might not be useful to a paladin for a dozen or perhaps more circles. This would only lead to problems.
I suggest all creative energy regarding a shared ability be focused on non-magical abilities, where they can be stat and circle driven, as these factors will match up nicely between our guilds.
-Father Gheist
I suggest all creative energy regarding a shared ability be focused on non-magical abilities, where they can be stat and circle driven, as these factors will match up nicely between our guilds.
-Father Gheist
I would agree--I would rather see non-magical abilities shared between the 2 guilds than magical spells.
My cleric is 9 circles younger than my paladin with almost twice the ranks in overall magic.On the other hand, my paladin has around twice the ranks in his armor of choice as my cleric does in his respective armor, and in shield as well.
When you learn at a tertiary rate, unless you pretty much exclusively power-train it, you just don't have the ranks of someone with it primary. just going about your normal day-to-day activities.
My cleric is 9 circles younger than my paladin with almost twice the ranks in overall magic.On the other hand, my paladin has around twice the ranks in his armor of choice as my cleric does in his respective armor, and in shield as well.
When you learn at a tertiary rate, unless you pretty much exclusively power-train it, you just don't have the ranks of someone with it primary. just going about your normal day-to-day activities.
>When you learn at a tertiary rate, unless you pretty much exclusively power-train it, you just don't have the ranks of someone with it primary. just going about your normal day-to-day activities.
>
actually it is quite easy keeping magic locked during normal activities, I'm a paladin and my primary weapon and magical skills are equal
>
actually it is quite easy keeping magic locked during normal activities, I'm a paladin and my primary weapon and magical skills are equal
>>actually it is quite easy keeping magic locked during normal activities, I'm a paladin and my primary weapon and magical skills are equal
That's because both of them are secondary and are learned at the same rate. I believe Gonif was talking about Primary vs Secondary skill learning.
Ecoles
That's because both of them are secondary and are learned at the same rate. I believe Gonif was talking about Primary vs Secondary skill learning.
Ecoles
Just a comment on the whole "conjuration" idea and it being restricted to magic prime guilds.
First, the concept that primary - tertiary only distinguishes learning rates as verified by GM's would seem to dispell any notion that whole abilities (like conjuration) would be restricted based on the primary/secondary/tertiary set up.
Second - Its been a while, but doesn't smite foe create a giant hammer of light thing that smacks the foe? Isn't that manipulation of "holy light" or "Conjuration"?? Hmm??
I am not a big fan of "shared" magical abilities, and my primary character was a Paladin. Would I like "bless" or "SoL"? Sure, but if I really wanted them I would become a cleric.
On the other hand, these things just struck me as being in contradiction to some of the arguments being offered here against such sharing.
- the forgotten one
First, the concept that primary - tertiary only distinguishes learning rates as verified by GM's would seem to dispell any notion that whole abilities (like conjuration) would be restricted based on the primary/secondary/tertiary set up.
Second - Its been a while, but doesn't smite foe create a giant hammer of light thing that smacks the foe? Isn't that manipulation of "holy light" or "Conjuration"?? Hmm??
I am not a big fan of "shared" magical abilities, and my primary character was a Paladin. Would I like "bless" or "SoL"? Sure, but if I really wanted them I would become a cleric.
On the other hand, these things just struck me as being in contradiction to some of the arguments being offered here against such sharing.
- the forgotten one
Despite the lack of distinction between prime/tert magic, this type of suggested spell sharing would still be far more advantageous to Paladins then it would be to Clerics. That's not to say it would NOT be advatageous to Clerics - it would most certainly be. I'd love to have AS, Courage, MO, RW, et cetera. It's just that as a magic primary, many of our spells are developed to assist us in our tertiary weaknesses. Personally, I feel that magic as tertiary is a distinct advantage - you get all the benefits of spells without wasting a primary or secondary skill set. Sure you learn slower, but does anyone actually find PM hard to train if you put a little elbow grease in?
To be honest, if you were to give Paladins the deader assitance spells and bless, there would be no need for Clerics. Take away a Paladin's spells, and he/she is still effective. Clerics serve no pivotal IG role aside from raise and rejuv. Paladins are leaders, forgers, warriors. Clerics are spiritual guidance, but as far as I can tell, that need rarely occurs in DR prime. Sure, we're warriors as well, but there are many guilds in front of us in that department.
I just feel we've got ours, you've got yours. I'd rather have a hand in the armor forging bonus (similar to your bonus in bead carving) than sharing your spells. But that's just me. I also find it very funny that Paladins think this is a great idea, and Clerics seem to be nauseated by it. :P
I'd be all for a non-magic shared ability.
-Statis
To be honest, if you were to give Paladins the deader assitance spells and bless, there would be no need for Clerics. Take away a Paladin's spells, and he/she is still effective. Clerics serve no pivotal IG role aside from raise and rejuv. Paladins are leaders, forgers, warriors. Clerics are spiritual guidance, but as far as I can tell, that need rarely occurs in DR prime. Sure, we're warriors as well, but there are many guilds in front of us in that department.
I just feel we've got ours, you've got yours. I'd rather have a hand in the armor forging bonus (similar to your bonus in bead carving) than sharing your spells. But that's just me. I also find it very funny that Paladins think this is a great idea, and Clerics seem to be nauseated by it. :P
I'd be all for a non-magic shared ability.
-Statis
I would hope there would be more advantages to being magic prime to magic tert other than a extra spell slots...
being Defencive prime, ya get bonuses to forging, armor ench. decreases, added points to be added to stance...
Well, this is starting to get to be a GvG argument again...::groan::
I guess the basic is, if there are bonuses to being pime defence, prime weapons...ect...then there should be bonuses to being Prime magic.
Dark Angel Crusinix
being Defencive prime, ya get bonuses to forging, armor ench. decreases, added points to be added to stance...
Well, this is starting to get to be a GvG argument again...::groan::
I guess the basic is, if there are bonuses to being pime defence, prime weapons...ect...then there should be bonuses to being Prime magic.
Dark Angel Crusinix
>being Defencive prime, ya get bonuses to forging, armor ench. decreases, added points to be added to stance...
Completely wrong folder, but I'd just like to add with the exception of forging bonus, an armor tertiary and an armor secondary guild get all of these benefits. There are no bonuses to being armor primary, we just happen to be the only guild based around defense and therefor get the biggest bonus' in those aspects.
Completely wrong folder, but I'd just like to add with the exception of forging bonus, an armor tertiary and an armor secondary guild get all of these benefits. There are no bonuses to being armor primary, we just happen to be the only guild based around defense and therefor get the biggest bonus' in those aspects.
<<Second - Its been a while, but doesn't smite foe create a giant hammer of light thing that smacks the foe? Isn't that manipulation of "holy light" or "Conjuration"?? Hmm??>>
I don't think that's what's meant by "conjuration" .. My take on the definition of conjuration is an item that's forced into being and kept there, like Shield of Light, Moonblade, FOS, FRS(, shadowling, shadow servant..?) .. If you attempt to define smite foe as a conjuration spell, then you pretty much have to apply that to almost all spells, since almost all magic involves "conjuring" something into being to cause an effect, be it a magical shield, a gust of air, a ball of flame, bees .. whatever.
I don't think that's what's meant by "conjuration" .. My take on the definition of conjuration is an item that's forced into being and kept there, like Shield of Light, Moonblade, FOS, FRS(, shadowling, shadow servant..?) .. If you attempt to define smite foe as a conjuration spell, then you pretty much have to apply that to almost all spells, since almost all magic involves "conjuring" something into being to cause an effect, be it a magical shield, a gust of air, a ball of flame, bees .. whatever.
<<an armor tertiary and an armor secondary guild get all of these benefits.>>
Yep, as well as other abilites. Which is why magic as tert is an advantage, IMHO. Rangers get a ton of stuff including magic, as do Paladins. (I'm sure I'll hear "no we don't...") More power to you. And hey, everyone shares. That's just inevitable.
We do have some bonuses - we see more mana and get more spell slots. However, when you look at skill and stat boosters overall, I think magic is the best way to buff yourself. Obviously dances and thief cookies are potent, but they're for short term use only and can't be reused as soon as they drop over a long-term, like a spell generally can.
However, magic primaries do get the best spells in my opinion. Whatever, nunshare para ti. :-)
-Statis
Yep, as well as other abilites. Which is why magic as tert is an advantage, IMHO. Rangers get a ton of stuff including magic, as do Paladins. (I'm sure I'll hear "no we don't...") More power to you. And hey, everyone shares. That's just inevitable.
We do have some bonuses - we see more mana and get more spell slots. However, when you look at skill and stat boosters overall, I think magic is the best way to buff yourself. Obviously dances and thief cookies are potent, but they're for short term use only and can't be reused as soon as they drop over a long-term, like a spell generally can.
However, magic primaries do get the best spells in my opinion. Whatever, nunshare para ti. :-)
-Statis
Wow, who the hell? Uhmm I started this thing a couple days ago,a nd you people still don't get what I plainly stated.
When I said we should share some spells out of some of our spell boosk, thats what i meant. I never said 'hey give us access to all Cleric spells and you can have access to all Paladin Spells'. nooo
Lets go over that one more time <points to second paragraph>
Ok, now proceed.
I suggested that we SHARE some.. keyword, SOME of our spells. My suggestions as far as CLERIC spells, that i had actually MENTIONED was Bless, Shield of Light (doesn't even matter since DA was changed, but it was one of those spells that I think both guilds should have equal rights to) and what was the third? Ya, Centering.
Responses to the psot were "OH MY FREAKIN GOD HELL NO PALADINS WILL = GODS NOOOOOOOOOOOOO I HATE u"
... now, back to what I was TRYING TO GET ACROSS in the first place? Ya, Certains pells (that we have been asking for EVER, suggesting, etc - since atleast 97 when I started playing a Paladin) have shown up on Cleric Boards because of slow, non magic loving - whatever reason maybe Paladin Guru (especially during that long duration we had none).
So, while certain spells Clerics guild has, that does work for em (since they are holy and all) would fit us equally if not more being holy warriors, yeah. nobody is holier than the other. We have our DIFFERENT apects of holiness - You bring life, we fight in the name of.
As an EVEN trade, Clerics would gain access to certain spells of OURS. Now the only reason I even posted this idea in the first place is because I was speakin w/ a Cleric iN IMs (who has 300+ PM) and he said if it was up to him he'd share his guilds spells JUST for Courage and Halt..
Ofcourse, this concept is beyond certain people.
Now, before you post and say 'NO PALI I HATE U AND U CANT HAVE ALL MY SPELLS'... Re-read the post one more time, and then shoot yourself ok? Remember, I DID post <many times too> of LIMITED Shared Access.
~ Teh Solo [irritated] Hunta
When I said we should share some spells out of some of our spell boosk, thats what i meant. I never said 'hey give us access to all Cleric spells and you can have access to all Paladin Spells'. nooo
Lets go over that one more time <points to second paragraph>
Ok, now proceed.
I suggested that we SHARE some.. keyword, SOME of our spells. My suggestions as far as CLERIC spells, that i had actually MENTIONED was Bless, Shield of Light (doesn't even matter since DA was changed, but it was one of those spells that I think both guilds should have equal rights to) and what was the third? Ya, Centering.
Responses to the psot were "OH MY FREAKIN GOD HELL NO PALADINS WILL = GODS NOOOOOOOOOOOOO I HATE u"
... now, back to what I was TRYING TO GET ACROSS in the first place? Ya, Certains pells (that we have been asking for EVER, suggesting, etc - since atleast 97 when I started playing a Paladin) have shown up on Cleric Boards because of slow, non magic loving - whatever reason maybe Paladin Guru (especially during that long duration we had none).
So, while certain spells Clerics guild has, that does work for em (since they are holy and all) would fit us equally if not more being holy warriors, yeah. nobody is holier than the other. We have our DIFFERENT apects of holiness - You bring life, we fight in the name of.
As an EVEN trade, Clerics would gain access to certain spells of OURS. Now the only reason I even posted this idea in the first place is because I was speakin w/ a Cleric iN IMs (who has 300+ PM) and he said if it was up to him he'd share his guilds spells JUST for Courage and Halt..
Ofcourse, this concept is beyond certain people.
Now, before you post and say 'NO PALI I HATE U AND U CANT HAVE ALL MY SPELLS'... Re-read the post one more time, and then shoot yourself ok? Remember, I DID post <many times too> of LIMITED Shared Access.
~ Teh Solo [irritated] Hunta
>>and he said if it was up to him he'd share his guilds spells JUST for Courage and Halt..
and if it was up to some others, who have 300+ magic, they wouldn't share.
It's not a hard concept, you made a suggestion, and people didn't like it, for whatever reason.
I don't see how a spell like halt or Courage would work into the cleric's spellbook. Maybe trothfangs rally...
then you'd have to look at the book they are in. Center is in clerics Spirit manipulation book, so the spell has something to do with the spirit, which is a cleric speciality.
The only one's I could see a palie get access to are holy defence spell book. Spirit manipulation is strickly cleric. Enchantments seem to be left for magic prime guilds...so maybe. And if we had a chadatru spell in divine intervention...but we don't so Divine intervention seems to be out of the question.
Dark Angel Crusinix
and if it was up to some others, who have 300+ magic, they wouldn't share.
It's not a hard concept, you made a suggestion, and people didn't like it, for whatever reason.
I don't see how a spell like halt or Courage would work into the cleric's spellbook. Maybe trothfangs rally...
then you'd have to look at the book they are in. Center is in clerics Spirit manipulation book, so the spell has something to do with the spirit, which is a cleric speciality.
The only one's I could see a palie get access to are holy defence spell book. Spirit manipulation is strickly cleric. Enchantments seem to be left for magic prime guilds...so maybe. And if we had a chadatru spell in divine intervention...but we don't so Divine intervention seems to be out of the question.
Dark Angel Crusinix
<< Responses to the psot were "OH MY FREAKIN GOD HELL NO PALADINS WILL = GODS NOOOOOOOOOOOOO I HATE u">>
Nobody said that, let alone multiple people.
<<As an EVEN trade, Clerics would gain access to certain spells of OURS.>>
Two issues with this.
1 You really don't want Geoffin or Smegul to have access to any spells you might want to share. With their PM ranks you can bet your bottom dollar those spells will be tweaked down for the average paladin level PM user.
2 When scrolls cam out the Paladins rallied that their spells should never be on scrolls and shared because nobody else has soul, including clerics. It got ugly. Now everything the paladins have fought tooth and nail for is offered as a bartering chip? Oh the irony.
Let's share a future nonmagical ability, not spells. The ground is more level there.
Lagerby
Nobody said that, let alone multiple people.
<<As an EVEN trade, Clerics would gain access to certain spells of OURS.>>
Two issues with this.
1 You really don't want Geoffin or Smegul to have access to any spells you might want to share. With their PM ranks you can bet your bottom dollar those spells will be tweaked down for the average paladin level PM user.
2 When scrolls cam out the Paladins rallied that their spells should never be on scrolls and shared because nobody else has soul, including clerics. It got ugly. Now everything the paladins have fought tooth and nail for is offered as a bartering chip? Oh the irony.
Let's share a future nonmagical ability, not spells. The ground is more level there.
Lagerby
>1 You really don't want Geoffin or Smegul to have access to any spells you might want to share. With their PM ranks you can bet your bottom dollar those spells will be tweaked down for the average paladin level PM user.
I'm not sure this applies anymore, by reason of global caps. As an example, Courage caps out so early, with relatively low mana (60ish) Those folks would simply already be capped. I could see your point becoming an issue with some of the justice spellbook spells, but that doesn't fit with the cleric guild defination very well, so is prolly moot.
>Let's share a future nonmagical ability, not spells. The ground is more level there.
I think your on the right track here, although I wouldn't mind a new shared spell either.
Not to dis clerics .. I don't want any of your current spells, well, OM and HeS could rock, but I realize thats too huge a request.
-Slris
I'm not sure this applies anymore, by reason of global caps. As an example, Courage caps out so early, with relatively low mana (60ish) Those folks would simply already be capped. I could see your point becoming an issue with some of the justice spellbook spells, but that doesn't fit with the cleric guild defination very well, so is prolly moot.
>Let's share a future nonmagical ability, not spells. The ground is more level there.
I think your on the right track here, although I wouldn't mind a new shared spell either.
Not to dis clerics .. I don't want any of your current spells, well, OM and HeS could rock, but I realize thats too huge a request.
-Slris
<<Not to dis clerics .. I don't want any of your current spells,>>
No insult taken. I wouldn't want your spells either. Totally useless to my style of hunting - with the mild exception of AS and RW. Most people are completely clueless towards Clerical magic,(not saying you are) and I think if many saw the +15 benediction give to Str/ref/agil, you'd want in on that too. :-p
"OMG HOW DO I REJUV! WUT DO U MEENE VIGIL DA CORPSE AND GOTO BETTA MANA SPOT! U R STOOPD THAT DUS NOT HAPPEN"
-Statis
No insult taken. I wouldn't want your spells either. Totally useless to my style of hunting - with the mild exception of AS and RW. Most people are completely clueless towards Clerical magic,(not saying you are) and I think if many saw the +15 benediction give to Str/ref/agil, you'd want in on that too. :-p
"OMG HOW DO I REJUV! WUT DO U MEENE VIGIL DA CORPSE AND GOTO BETTA MANA SPOT! U R STOOPD THAT DUS NOT HAPPEN"
-Statis
Uhmm - To Crusi - It seems you are only thinking spells should be shared by name? not necessarily. My offer was vague as to what spells or anything really. I just threw up Examples in my posts. Nothin hardcore, except the 'sharing one anothers spells with limitations to which spells out of what books' part.. that part i think I was pretty clear about :)
As far <limited> spells being shared by their placement in books, That would be a good way to categoriez <better> what spells might be sharable. Still, I wasn't really concerned with how/which/where or anythign as far as spells, just the idea in general was somethin I liked.
To Lagerby, as far as "Geoffin or Smegul" casting the spells, the global caps is one, and somebody else suggested maybe some slight changes in affects/affectiveness of spells.
Paladin casts spellA from Paladin book, It = where it should be. Paladin casts spellA from Cleric/Universal book, it = [here it should be]-10% or 25% Same goes for a Cleric.
And say, the ability does come out. There are so many ways to go about this. Lets take this for an Example. Before a Paladin could learn a spell from the cleric book, they would have to do a <somewhat randomized> quest, given by the Cleric Leader, to gain favor with them. So The guild leaders will speak with the paladin.
And/Or - To use the spells, it would take a Spell Slot+ TDPs.
And/Or - Each time the Paladin is able to learn a new spell with the Guild (And this could be not 'oh i have 3 open spell slots lets get 3 cleric spells, more like 'Oh They'll allow me to learn a new spell from their book ever X/XX levels')... and the Paladin would have to go on another quest.
Same goes for clerics gettin access to a Paladin's Book.
As far as Paladin spells being used by clerics, They could tie the way its used by a clerics Devotion to their gods, inplace of the soul. not sure how easy/hard it is to keep devotion good, but it could supliment, fairly.
This is gettin too long.
~ Teh Solo Hunta
As far <limited> spells being shared by their placement in books, That would be a good way to categoriez <better> what spells might be sharable. Still, I wasn't really concerned with how/which/where or anythign as far as spells, just the idea in general was somethin I liked.
To Lagerby, as far as "Geoffin or Smegul" casting the spells, the global caps is one, and somebody else suggested maybe some slight changes in affects/affectiveness of spells.
Paladin casts spellA from Paladin book, It = where it should be. Paladin casts spellA from Cleric/Universal book, it = [here it should be]-10% or 25% Same goes for a Cleric.
And say, the ability does come out. There are so many ways to go about this. Lets take this for an Example. Before a Paladin could learn a spell from the cleric book, they would have to do a <somewhat randomized> quest, given by the Cleric Leader, to gain favor with them. So The guild leaders will speak with the paladin.
And/Or - To use the spells, it would take a Spell Slot+ TDPs.
And/Or - Each time the Paladin is able to learn a new spell with the Guild (And this could be not 'oh i have 3 open spell slots lets get 3 cleric spells, more like 'Oh They'll allow me to learn a new spell from their book ever X/XX levels')... and the Paladin would have to go on another quest.
Same goes for clerics gettin access to a Paladin's Book.
As far as Paladin spells being used by clerics, They could tie the way its used by a clerics Devotion to their gods, inplace of the soul. not sure how easy/hard it is to keep devotion good, but it could supliment, fairly.
This is gettin too long.
~ Teh Solo Hunta
> To Lagerby, as far as "Geoffin or Smegul" casting the spells, the global caps is one, and somebody else suggested maybe some slight changes in affects/affectiveness of spells.
Many spells have PM components. For example, the soft cap on Benediction is raised through training PM. I'd bet, but don't know for a fact, that Courage works in a similar manner. In other words, more PM means you can give immense courage to more people at the maximum prep. Paladin spells are designed for Paladin skills. Cleric spells are designed for Cleric skills.
>Paladin casts spellA from Paladin book, It = where it should be. Paladin casts spellA from Cleric/Universal book, it = [here it should be]-10% or 25% Same goes for a Cleric.
Why should we (meaning both Paladins and Clerics) be penalized for casting spells available to us? I'm confused on your reasoning.
To tell you the truth, I really don't want Paladin spells. The idea of a combined ability is interesting, but I'm not really all that enthusiastic about it. If we were to share an ability, can we make it something that has absolutely nothing to do with deaders? It could be interesting to have something like a 'super lead' in which the Paladin's leadership skills are increased greatly through the use of a Clerics devotion.
Many spells have PM components. For example, the soft cap on Benediction is raised through training PM. I'd bet, but don't know for a fact, that Courage works in a similar manner. In other words, more PM means you can give immense courage to more people at the maximum prep. Paladin spells are designed for Paladin skills. Cleric spells are designed for Cleric skills.
>Paladin casts spellA from Paladin book, It = where it should be. Paladin casts spellA from Cleric/Universal book, it = [here it should be]-10% or 25% Same goes for a Cleric.
Why should we (meaning both Paladins and Clerics) be penalized for casting spells available to us? I'm confused on your reasoning.
To tell you the truth, I really don't want Paladin spells. The idea of a combined ability is interesting, but I'm not really all that enthusiastic about it. If we were to share an ability, can we make it something that has absolutely nothing to do with deaders? It could be interesting to have something like a 'super lead' in which the Paladin's leadership skills are increased greatly through the use of a Clerics devotion.
>>Uhmm - To Crusi - It seems you are only thinking spells should be shared by name?
well, not nessissarily by name, I was thinking more along the lines of "chapers" the spell is in. I don't know what chapters a palie has, but cleric has 4. Holy defence, Spirit Manipulation, Divine Intervention and Holy Enchantments. Of the 4, only 2 seem appropriate to "share" Holy Defence and Possibly holy enchantments. DI I wouldn't say, as while palies are holy, clerics are more in tune with gods, than a palie. A palie seems holy to themselves, while cleric is holy to gods *Which is why there is soul/divotion*.
>>It could be interesting to have something like a 'super lead' in which the Paladin's leadership skills are increased greatly through the use of a Clerics devotion.
How about an instant increase to like courage, to the spirit, and added encumberance bonus.
Heck, just make it so that this can happen while a cleric is "vigiled" to a palie.
Dark Angel Crusinix
well, not nessissarily by name, I was thinking more along the lines of "chapers" the spell is in. I don't know what chapters a palie has, but cleric has 4. Holy defence, Spirit Manipulation, Divine Intervention and Holy Enchantments. Of the 4, only 2 seem appropriate to "share" Holy Defence and Possibly holy enchantments. DI I wouldn't say, as while palies are holy, clerics are more in tune with gods, than a palie. A palie seems holy to themselves, while cleric is holy to gods *Which is why there is soul/divotion*.
>>It could be interesting to have something like a 'super lead' in which the Paladin's leadership skills are increased greatly through the use of a Clerics devotion.
How about an instant increase to like courage, to the spirit, and added encumberance bonus.
Heck, just make it so that this can happen while a cleric is "vigiled" to a palie.
Dark Angel Crusinix
>Heck, just make it so that this can happen while a cleric is "vigiled" to a palie
Interesting thought, but I have a question or two. Is Vigil the spirit refresher spell? If so, What happens if you Vigil with both the cleric and the target at "spirit full of life"? That could provide the link to enhanced Leading, and other combined abilities.
Does Cleric Devotion work like the new Paladin soul? Overall devotion, and a devotion pool, or is it full -> none, like mana.
-Slaris
Interesting thought, but I have a question or two. Is Vigil the spirit refresher spell? If so, What happens if you Vigil with both the cleric and the target at "spirit full of life"? That could provide the link to enhanced Leading, and other combined abilities.
Does Cleric Devotion work like the new Paladin soul? Overall devotion, and a devotion pool, or is it full -> none, like mana.
-Slaris
Why do we have to share anything with Paladins? I mean, come on...they are Paladins. Always running around in bulky armor and saying very clich things like "Stop you villan!" and other such supermanesque things. To top it off, after running around in massive blindingly polished bulky plate armor all day they stink. Is this really a group of people we want to share anything with?
Clerics are the James Bond's of DR. We are refined, ellegant, and when need be-deadly.
Paladins are the Maxwell Smart of DR. Bumbling, full of bravado and hot hair, and mostly deadly by accident (have you ever had a paladin in plate fall on you?)
I say let the Paladins be Paladins and the Clerics be Clerics and don't share nada. Afterall, how would it look if James Bond lent his breathing aparatus to Agent 86 and then didn't have it when he needed it? He would be forced to use his jam trousers and that's just not something I as a cleric am willing to accept. Sure, it may keep the sharks away, but it's one hell of a sticky mess.
So, what is the point of all this other than a bit of comic relief? Honestly I don't wana share nada with the Paladins. Give 'em an inch, they take the whole bloody province.
Clerics are the James Bond's of DR. We are refined, ellegant, and when need be-deadly.
Paladins are the Maxwell Smart of DR. Bumbling, full of bravado and hot hair, and mostly deadly by accident (have you ever had a paladin in plate fall on you?)
I say let the Paladins be Paladins and the Clerics be Clerics and don't share nada. Afterall, how would it look if James Bond lent his breathing aparatus to Agent 86 and then didn't have it when he needed it? He would be forced to use his jam trousers and that's just not something I as a cleric am willing to accept. Sure, it may keep the sharks away, but it's one hell of a sticky mess.
So, what is the point of all this other than a bit of comic relief? Honestly I don't wana share nada with the Paladins. Give 'em an inch, they take the whole bloody province.
>>I say let the Paladins be Paladins and the Clerics be Clerics and don't share nada.
If, I can cast vigil on a paladin, and become spiritually "Linked" and thus, when he does a "courage" I get a boost to my health and spirit, but with a more imidiate effect, rather than "waiting" for vigil to work up, I see no loss for anyone.
Dark Angel Crusinix
If, I can cast vigil on a paladin, and become spiritually "Linked" and thus, when he does a "courage" I get a boost to my health and spirit, but with a more imidiate effect, rather than "waiting" for vigil to work up, I see no loss for anyone.
Dark Angel Crusinix
>If, I can cast vigil on a paladin, and become spiritually "Linked" and thus, when he does a "courage" I get a boost to my health and spirit, but with a more imidiate effect, rather than "waiting" for vigil to work up, I see no loss for anyone.
I agree. If our spells work in conjunction making each spell more powerful than the other is alone, great! I don't see a point in actually sharing spells though. Let each guild have their own stuff.
I agree. If our spells work in conjunction making each spell more powerful than the other is alone, great! I don't see a point in actually sharing spells though. Let each guild have their own stuff.
WHITEFLAME- You've got it wrong, I am a devote cleric (when I decide to play him) and hold the cleric guild close to heart as it was my very first guild I played. And though I am very loyal to that, I'll make the acception to give paladin's one of our spells. Now, what is this spell you ask? Well I can see giving them PFE, not because it isn't useful because it is, but if they are willing to pay the price I ask for it I can see making just this one little exception.
While talking to a paladin just recently that was complaining about a certain skill it dawned on me. In order for paladin's to recieve PFE (and only PFE) they have to agree to a give-take scenario, being we give them the spell and they trade teaching req's. See paladins only need 58 ranks of teaching or so, and this paladin that I was talking about is about to be the same circle as my cleric (24th) now for a 24th circle cleric you need 70 teaching and 54 Scholarship, now for a 24th circle paladin they need 53 in teaching with no scholarship req (that I know of, it may be there but I've never heard anyone needing it.)
Also once said paladin reaches the goal of 58 (or whatever dismally low number it is) they never have to teach again, whereas Clerics don't get such a benefit. Now, seeings as we have to do alot more for our skills I say we charge more for em, if that paladin wants PFE I say up their teaching req's to 3.5-4 ranks per circle and make them work for everything. See while I was guildsitting (bored off my you know what) to get the skills so that I could advance and aquire more spells, a paladin gets to sit in combat where things are actually interesting to learn skill. I say this is unfair <nods>.
In summary, if paladin's think they should get Cleric spells make em work for em. Oh and make it so only the really high paladins can get em so Pureblade won't be able to <nods>.
(This post brought to you tongue in cheek, kinda)
Inept Acolyte.
While talking to a paladin just recently that was complaining about a certain skill it dawned on me. In order for paladin's to recieve PFE (and only PFE) they have to agree to a give-take scenario, being we give them the spell and they trade teaching req's. See paladins only need 58 ranks of teaching or so, and this paladin that I was talking about is about to be the same circle as my cleric (24th) now for a 24th circle cleric you need 70 teaching and 54 Scholarship, now for a 24th circle paladin they need 53 in teaching with no scholarship req (that I know of, it may be there but I've never heard anyone needing it.)
Also once said paladin reaches the goal of 58 (or whatever dismally low number it is) they never have to teach again, whereas Clerics don't get such a benefit. Now, seeings as we have to do alot more for our skills I say we charge more for em, if that paladin wants PFE I say up their teaching req's to 3.5-4 ranks per circle and make them work for everything. See while I was guildsitting (bored off my you know what) to get the skills so that I could advance and aquire more spells, a paladin gets to sit in combat where things are actually interesting to learn skill. I say this is unfair <nods>.
In summary, if paladin's think they should get Cleric spells make em work for em. Oh and make it so only the really high paladins can get em so Pureblade won't be able to <nods>.
(This post brought to you tongue in cheek, kinda)
Inept Acolyte.
<<yeah good luck getting 15 ranks of lore per without teaching. And do remember the only way a paladin could learn scholarship was from a class till the advent of spellbooks>>
Patterns worked long before spellbooks - in fact, they worked better then spellbooks before they were nerfed. Although they are a still a fairly "new" item.
-Statis
Patterns worked long before spellbooks - in fact, they worked better then spellbooks before they were nerfed. Although they are a still a fairly "new" item.
-Statis
>>Not true. There were other ways, and still are. >>
bingo, one of my characters needed a rank er two in scholarship... and I guarantee no one in plat has ever actually met him.. possibly seen him run by.. but he got those ranks
Player of Ravanos - and that one guy - and the other one too!
bingo, one of my characters needed a rank er two in scholarship... and I guarantee no one in plat has ever actually met him.. possibly seen him run by.. but he got those ranks
Player of Ravanos - and that one guy - and the other one too!
>While talking to a paladin just recently that was complaining about a certain skill it dawned on me. In order for paladin's to recieve PFE (and only PFE) they have to agree to a give-take scenario, being we give them the spell and they trade teaching req's.
I stand fully corrected. I am willing to share spells if this becomes the swap off.
I stand fully corrected. I am willing to share spells if this becomes the swap off.
>I suggest, for those of you who have never played a Paladin, to try it.
I have to admit I found my cousin's paladin (which I played a few times) to be very fun to play. Now granted, his training methods were a bit unorthodox (have to be when your Paladin is a gnome) so his skills were a bit whacky, but it was great fun none-the-less. I know Paladin's have some *** skills to learn just as Clerics do. Frankly, all guilds do. I never slighted the Paladins at all, but I'd trade a spell or two for Paladin teaching ranks any day of the week and twice on Sunday.
Make that three times on Sunday.
I have to admit I found my cousin's paladin (which I played a few times) to be very fun to play. Now granted, his training methods were a bit unorthodox (have to be when your Paladin is a gnome) so his skills were a bit whacky, but it was great fun none-the-less. I know Paladin's have some *** skills to learn just as Clerics do. Frankly, all guilds do. I never slighted the Paladins at all, but I'd trade a spell or two for Paladin teaching ranks any day of the week and twice on Sunday.
Make that three times on Sunday.
Before this turns back into another guild vs guild arguement and the board monitors come to slap us (again), let's get this back on track, shall we? I like Crusi's suggestion of our spells combined to have some interesting and beneficial effects. I still do not think we need any shared spells. I especially do not think we need to share any spells that are already in our spell books.
That being said, a non-magical ability that requires both a cleric and a paladin (or even a group of paladins and clerics) to perform different parts of and, if done properly, the effects would be spectacular would be a fantastic idea. However, this isn't the folder to discuss this in. ::grins::
That being said, a non-magical ability that requires both a cleric and a paladin (or even a group of paladins and clerics) to perform different parts of and, if done properly, the effects would be spectacular would be a fantastic idea. However, this isn't the folder to discuss this in. ::grins::
