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>> Thematic issues aside, I think the issue is less that, and more that if you allow First Aid, a non combat skill, to improve your ability at Skinning, a combat skill, you're violating a rule that GMs are trying to set up about training combat skills outside of combat and without risk.
I agree that having the crossover from combat to non-combat is a concern worth discussing, however this isn't strictly a combat skill gaining a non-combat training application, so it isn't a perfect analog. Instead, this is a somewhat combat skill being merged with a completely non-combat skill.
Methods of Training Skinning:
* Arranging/Skinning creatures - combat
* Scraping skins/fish - non-combat
* Tending bloodsuckers - non-combat
I anticipate the argument that scraping skins is combat-related because combat is how you acquire skins, but this is easily disproved; boxes are also obtained through combat, but we don't call Locksmithing a combat skill, that I know of. For that matter, the primary method of getting wounds (unless you're an Empath) is combat, so if you're using that logic, First Aid is also a combat skill, and the entire issue becomes moot.
Methods of Training First Aid:
* Tending Wounds - non-combat
* Anatomy Charts - non-combat
* Tending bloodsuckers - non-combat
So if we were to merge those two skills - Skinning and First Aid - into a single Anatomy skill, we would end up with five methods of training it, four of which are non-combat. To me, that makes it a non-combat skill that has a single combat application. There's all sorts of precedent for non-combat skills being trainable in combat; Appraisal, Perception, Stealth, and (for Bards) Performance all are non-combat skills that can be trained by incorporating them into combat routines. It also helps out the issue that First Aid currently has no monetization method, but merging it into Anatomy would give it that via skinning creatures, with the trade-off that it's the only Anatomy training method that puts you in immediate danger. (Tending puts you in latent danger.) Something we're seeing more and more in DR3 it seems is the push for various (perhaps all) skills to have the ability to generate revenue for the player; rather than adding a new revenue stream for First Aid, by merging it into Anatomy we get that revenue source for the new skill through an already extant mechanism: skinning creatures.
I'm not going to say that this is a perfect idea, and there's certainly some discussion that needs to take place on the finer points, but I think overall there are a lot more marks in the Pro column than the Con.
I
"Could be worse, I could agree with Pureblade." ~ Samsaren
>>Scraping skins/fish - non-combat
Does this even teach skinning at a reasonable level? From what I've experienced, it teaches skinning as poorly as fishing teaches outdoorsmanship
>>Tending bloodsuckers - non-combat
While non-combat, I would say this is a risk-based training, which to me makes it more understandable as a combat-based thing. I should have probably said 'risk-based' instead of 'combat-based' to begin with.
Plus, it's not like someone can tend green blood worms to 1750 in First Aid/Skinning.
>>To me, that makes it a non-combat skill that has a single combat application.
Except that single combat application is going to be the primary reason anyone wants to train it in the first place.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
Does this even teach skinning at a reasonable level? From what I've experienced, it teaches skinning as poorly as fishing teaches outdoorsmanship
>>Tending bloodsuckers - non-combat
While non-combat, I would say this is a risk-based training, which to me makes it more understandable as a combat-based thing. I should have probably said 'risk-based' instead of 'combat-based' to begin with.
Plus, it's not like someone can tend green blood worms to 1750 in First Aid/Skinning.
>>To me, that makes it a non-combat skill that has a single combat application.
Except that single combat application is going to be the primary reason anyone wants to train it in the first place.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
>> Does this even teach skinning at a reasonable level? From what I've experienced, it teaches skinning as poorly as fishing teaches outdoorsmanship
I don't know; I got the list from Epedia and it was vague.
>> I should have probably said 'risk-based' instead of 'combat-based' to begin with.
In that case, I'd also call First Aid 'risk-based' and say that it renders this whole line of argument invalid.
>> Plus, it's not like someone can tend green blood worms to 1750 in First Aid/Skinning.
That's actually the whole point, right there. Merging these two skills uses each to fill the gaps in the other.
>> Except that single combat application is going to be the primary reason anyone wants to train it in the first place.
This argument is also invalidated by the fact that there are people out there with more FA than Skinning right now, meaning that if the two merged, their primary reason for training Anatomy would be tending wounds not skinning corpses.
I
"Could be worse, I could agree with Pureblade." ~ Samsaren
I don't know; I got the list from Epedia and it was vague.
>> I should have probably said 'risk-based' instead of 'combat-based' to begin with.
In that case, I'd also call First Aid 'risk-based' and say that it renders this whole line of argument invalid.
>> Plus, it's not like someone can tend green blood worms to 1750 in First Aid/Skinning.
That's actually the whole point, right there. Merging these two skills uses each to fill the gaps in the other.
>> Except that single combat application is going to be the primary reason anyone wants to train it in the first place.
This argument is also invalidated by the fact that there are people out there with more FA than Skinning right now, meaning that if the two merged, their primary reason for training Anatomy would be tending wounds not skinning corpses.
I
"Could be worse, I could agree with Pureblade." ~ Samsaren
>>I'd also call First Aid 'risk-based' and say that it renders this whole line of argument invalid.
Eeeeeeeeeeeh. I've never felt "at risk" tending a bleeder.
>>That's actually the whole point, right there. Merging these two skills uses each to fill the gaps in the other.
While I think everyone is on the same page with First Aid needing some love, I don't think the solution in this particular situation is to just kill off the first aid skill and make all first aid checks handled under skinning.
Because, let's be honest here, it's not a merging of two skills to fill in the gaps, it's allowing skinning to perform a hostile takeover of first aid. It's less small edged and medium edged merging for the sake of simplicity or swimming and climbing for the sake of filling in each other's gaps, it's saying FA doesn't do enough to warrant being on its own and being absorbed into skinning, which can handle doing it as a tangential thing it decides to take on.
I'd much rather see First Aid get expanded in the long term, not become a side-thing that skinning manages.
>>This argument is also invalidated by the fact that there are people out there with more FA than Skinning right now, meaning that if the two merged, their primary reason for training Anatomy would be tending wounds not skinning corpses.
IMO, most people, or at least non-empaths, who proactively train FA have FA at the ranks they do because they have a trigger that auto-tends them anytime bandages come off. Training FA, at least in 2.0, was like training magic using cyclics when 3.0 first came out: set it and forget it. I wouldn't use it as proof of anything in particular, except highlighting why the way FA skill gain works needs to move away from just tending wounds to being some more proactive than just kicking the wound can a bit further down the road.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
Eeeeeeeeeeeh. I've never felt "at risk" tending a bleeder.
>>That's actually the whole point, right there. Merging these two skills uses each to fill the gaps in the other.
While I think everyone is on the same page with First Aid needing some love, I don't think the solution in this particular situation is to just kill off the first aid skill and make all first aid checks handled under skinning.
Because, let's be honest here, it's not a merging of two skills to fill in the gaps, it's allowing skinning to perform a hostile takeover of first aid. It's less small edged and medium edged merging for the sake of simplicity or swimming and climbing for the sake of filling in each other's gaps, it's saying FA doesn't do enough to warrant being on its own and being absorbed into skinning, which can handle doing it as a tangential thing it decides to take on.
I'd much rather see First Aid get expanded in the long term, not become a side-thing that skinning manages.
>>This argument is also invalidated by the fact that there are people out there with more FA than Skinning right now, meaning that if the two merged, their primary reason for training Anatomy would be tending wounds not skinning corpses.
IMO, most people, or at least non-empaths, who proactively train FA have FA at the ranks they do because they have a trigger that auto-tends them anytime bandages come off. Training FA, at least in 2.0, was like training magic using cyclics when 3.0 first came out: set it and forget it. I wouldn't use it as proof of anything in particular, except highlighting why the way FA skill gain works needs to move away from just tending wounds to being some more proactive than just kicking the wound can a bit further down the road.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
>>What i'm reading is we shouldn't be skinning because we'd be acting too much like Necromancers?
No. I was more talking about the autopsy ideas and other things of that nature that were suggesting Empathy or Theurgy learning along with skinning/first aid/a merged version of these from cutting up corpses and examining them more thoroughly than just a normal skinning. I was being a little tongue in cheek, but several of the suggestions immediately brought to mind Thanatology.
-Persida
No. I was more talking about the autopsy ideas and other things of that nature that were suggesting Empathy or Theurgy learning along with skinning/first aid/a merged version of these from cutting up corpses and examining them more thoroughly than just a normal skinning. I was being a little tongue in cheek, but several of the suggestions immediately brought to mind Thanatology.
-Persida
Being able to tend external skin should be another benefit of high First Aid skill.
External skin bleeders are usually associated with sorcery backlash or traps.
Therefore, I think it should be an ability that only high level first aid can deal with...maybe...600+ skill?
I don't think it needs to merged with skinning.
Finding enough things that high level first aid can deal with should be the solution.
External skin bleeders are usually associated with sorcery backlash or traps.
Therefore, I think it should be an ability that only high level first aid can deal with...maybe...600+ skill?
I don't think it needs to merged with skinning.
Finding enough things that high level first aid can deal with should be the solution.
What about high end treatments for disease/poison? I know the plan is to tie this into Remedies, but temporary treatments is sort of the name of the game with First Aid, so perhaps oozing sores could be lanced/drained, or tourniquets applied to prevent poison from spreading and doing further damage.
Generally reducing the damage from bleeding, poison, or disease, seems like a good application of further more advanced First Aid.
