Previous Thread
Expand All
Collapse All
Ignore Author
Reply
Any GM comment on why TM spells are comparatively the same strength as ranged weapons despite increased limitations?
Limitations include...
1. Unable to keep a spell prepped like you can a bow loaded.
2. Magic resitance on all creatures. Increased MR for barbs.
3. Magic barrier spells. If it helps evasion/shield, it helps against all missle attacks. However, there are many spells (and some extremely strong) that help only against TM or magic attacks.
4. Mana. This one is a HUGE drawback.
5. The TARGET verb is inferior to the AIM verb. One example is that you loose your spell when a creature wanders out of a room. If you're aiming at a creature and it wanders out of the room, you don't have to reload your bow. Another example is that if a target slips into hiding or something, your AIM with a bow still works for > amount of time than if you TARGETed with a TM spell.
So why are their strengths comparable despite these drawbacks?
Do trolls like appels and oranges? I'll take the bait.
1. EVASION PENALTY more significant for ranged.
2. 100% parry penalty.
3. 100% shield penalty for most ranged situations. (how many defenses are left now?).
4. Barbs and paladins can't parry spell castings at melee like they can ranged attacks.
5. Most ranged the roundtime is significantly higher.
6. No added exp for targetting specific area's.
7. No area effect ranged attacks.
8. No hybrid ranged attacks.
9. Much harder to load in hiding then prep in hiding and remain unseen.
10. Ranged is harder to train... risk vs reward.
11. Some mosnters cant be aimmed at and some can prevent you from aiming.
12. Weapon damage affects performance, TM spells can't get "damaged."
13. Most tm spells have better chance to stun.
14. Some TM spells can cause more then just vit/body damage
a. Spells have mana limitaions and bows have ammo limitations.
b. I can't pump more mana into my ranged to make it more damaging.
c. I can't "charge" up my ranged and then focus on it to get an added boost.
d. I can't prep ranged weapons with no arms/hands. Nor do other things with my hands while using ranged.
e. Ranged attacks seem to rely on good balance more then TM spells
f. Nap can't be used with any ranged attack.
The defensive penalty to using ranged is currently far more significant then magic. It's offensive power should be balanced accordingly. Is that not fair?
Even with SOL MPP MaPP and ben up my cleric has a much harder time with LX then TM. It's not even comparable. Vast differance. I prefer TM trainning much more. Is your ranged weapon near your TM skill?
Also keep in mind weapons are due for an overhaul that is already in the planning stages.
Halfling,
http://www.beyondgoodevil.org/users/datarealms/
1. EVASION PENALTY more significant for ranged.
2. 100% parry penalty.
3. 100% shield penalty for most ranged situations. (how many defenses are left now?).
4. Barbs and paladins can't parry spell castings at melee like they can ranged attacks.
5. Most ranged the roundtime is significantly higher.
6. No added exp for targetting specific area's.
7. No area effect ranged attacks.
8. No hybrid ranged attacks.
9. Much harder to load in hiding then prep in hiding and remain unseen.
10. Ranged is harder to train... risk vs reward.
11. Some mosnters cant be aimmed at and some can prevent you from aiming.
12. Weapon damage affects performance, TM spells can't get "damaged."
13. Most tm spells have better chance to stun.
14. Some TM spells can cause more then just vit/body damage
a. Spells have mana limitaions and bows have ammo limitations.
b. I can't pump more mana into my ranged to make it more damaging.
c. I can't "charge" up my ranged and then focus on it to get an added boost.
d. I can't prep ranged weapons with no arms/hands. Nor do other things with my hands while using ranged.
e. Ranged attacks seem to rely on good balance more then TM spells
f. Nap can't be used with any ranged attack.
The defensive penalty to using ranged is currently far more significant then magic. It's offensive power should be balanced accordingly. Is that not fair?
Even with SOL MPP MaPP and ben up my cleric has a much harder time with LX then TM. It's not even comparable. Vast differance. I prefer TM trainning much more. Is your ranged weapon near your TM skill?
Also keep in mind weapons are due for an overhaul that is already in the planning stages.
Halfling,
http://www.beyondgoodevil.org/users/datarealms/
I have 80+ ranks more TM than ranged weapon. My ranged weapon is faster, more deadly and much more consistant than my TM. I have more TM than is required for a warrior mage my circle, as a cleric, my ranged weapon is more effective vs undead than my TM is. For me running out of mana and such is usually not a factor, my advice is have your cleric donate the LX to someone else, use the same basic set up you had, throw in benediction and use a spear. when you get close to your TM with a spear or throwing hammer come back and we can discuss it a bit more in detail and you can try and convience me.
Just A Cleric
Just A Cleric
>>1. EVASION PENALTY more significant for ranged.
Evasion penalty for preparing spells is based on mana input vs PM skill. Is the bow evasion penalty (which is mainly during aiming, isn't it?) static or skill-minimized?
>>4. Barbs and paladins can't parry spell castings at melee like they can ranged attacks.
MR & BMR don't require any sort of skill check on the defender's part, and operate even against hidden/inviso casters.
>>5. Most ranged the roundtime is significantly higher.
Arguable. TM spells have only a 1 second RT when cast, but have multiple prep times. Load RT is fairly short for most ranged weapons, and can (for certain guilds) be lowered by skill.
>>6. No added exp for targetting specific area's.
That is true of TM casts, as well. All combat attacks, whether "mundane" or magical, do not receive any bonus exp for specifcally targeting certain areas. Strategic effect, only.
>>7. No area effect ranged attacks.
No mana limitations on ranged attacks.
>>9. Much harder to load in hiding then prep in hiding and remain unseen.
Physical actions vs mental actions. Also, from my understanding, hidden prep is still being worked on. And it is still impossible for anyone to cast and remain hidden, unlike certain guilds which can fire a bow and stay hidden.
>>10. Ranged is harder to train... risk vs reward.
Arguable. Very arguable. Ranged is limited by ammunition, which can be picked back up easily (including via macro and script), whereas mana regenerates at a fairly slow rate, especially compared to the amount (expecially at higher levels) needed to affect your opponent.
>>11. Some mosnters cant be aimmed at and some can prevent you from aiming.
And monsters can be immune to spells. And there is no way to "bless" a non-clerical spell in order to let it work on non-corporeal undead, ever.
>>12. Weapon damage affects performance, TM spells can't get "damaged."
Nerve damage affects many aspects of spells, like how much mana can be safely used in it, and can affect things like effective TM. And spell casters are extremely prone to achieving nerve damage at the slightest excuse. And there are, as yet, still no common non-Empath methods of healing nerve damage.
>>a. Spells have mana limitaions and bows have ammo limitations.
Easier to recover and/or carry ammo than it is to increase mana available.
>>b. I can't pump more mana into my ranged to make it more damaging.
Subject, as mentioned, to mana limitations. And I can't "create" most TM spells in a different room, as compared to player-created arrows and bows.
>>c. I can't "charge" up my ranged and then focus on it to get an added boost.
Again, much more limited, even for those able to use worn cambrinth than for those able to make their own ranged weaponry. It takes mana to charge any cambrinth, and that takes from the same pool that it comes from to prepare the spell.
The main benefit of cambrinth (and harnessing) is because mana attunement usage is not at a static progression. It does not take twice as much mana attunement to cast a spell prepared at 10 mana as it does to cast one prepared at 5 mana, it takes more (potentially significantly more) mana than that.
Not to mention that spell mana limits are very strongly tied to three (3) skills, instead of just the one for using a bow.
>>d. I can't prep ranged weapons with no arms/hands. Nor do other things with my hands while using ranged.
Really? If you time it right, it is easy to pick up those spare arrows littering the ground during the aim time without affecting aim; you just need to make sure that your left hand is empty before you get the fully aimed message. I have done that myself, in the past.
And don't forget that the open hand requirement still exists for certain TM spells. Which can actually be harder to deal with than bows, since it isn't consistent across the list.
>>e. Ranged attacks seem to rely on good balance more then TM spells
Ranged attacks rely on fewer stats for effect than TM spells, much less Sv spells.
>>f. Nap can't be used with any ranged attack.
And your point there is? It used to be required for some spells (talk about hand requirements), but now it requires a skill not many people work on anyhow in order to provide any benefit to a spell cast, and 6 silver (give or take) per cast is fairly stiff for the (apparently) minor benefit is provides.
>>Even with SOL MPP MaPP and ben up my cleric has a much harder time with LX then TM. It's not even comparable. Vast differance. I prefer TM trainning much more. Is your ranged weapon near your TM skill?
No, much lower. And much quicker and easier (IMO) to kill with when I am training it.
And I have to say that I haven't noticed much of an evasion penalty when I use any of my ranged weapons as compared to any other weapon or spell use. Then again, my secondary weapon skill is brawling, so that may affect my opinion.
~Kyn (Kynevon)
Kynevon's DR Links Page: http://kynevon.info
Mac OS X FE: http://www.play.net/software/warlock-info.asp
Amagaim's What to Hunt list: http://kynevon.info/What2Hunt.xls
"We're not lost. We're just geographically confused." Brian, KoDT
Evasion penalty for preparing spells is based on mana input vs PM skill. Is the bow evasion penalty (which is mainly during aiming, isn't it?) static or skill-minimized?
>>4. Barbs and paladins can't parry spell castings at melee like they can ranged attacks.
MR & BMR don't require any sort of skill check on the defender's part, and operate even against hidden/inviso casters.
>>5. Most ranged the roundtime is significantly higher.
Arguable. TM spells have only a 1 second RT when cast, but have multiple prep times. Load RT is fairly short for most ranged weapons, and can (for certain guilds) be lowered by skill.
>>6. No added exp for targetting specific area's.
That is true of TM casts, as well. All combat attacks, whether "mundane" or magical, do not receive any bonus exp for specifcally targeting certain areas. Strategic effect, only.
>>7. No area effect ranged attacks.
No mana limitations on ranged attacks.
>>9. Much harder to load in hiding then prep in hiding and remain unseen.
Physical actions vs mental actions. Also, from my understanding, hidden prep is still being worked on. And it is still impossible for anyone to cast and remain hidden, unlike certain guilds which can fire a bow and stay hidden.
>>10. Ranged is harder to train... risk vs reward.
Arguable. Very arguable. Ranged is limited by ammunition, which can be picked back up easily (including via macro and script), whereas mana regenerates at a fairly slow rate, especially compared to the amount (expecially at higher levels) needed to affect your opponent.
>>11. Some mosnters cant be aimmed at and some can prevent you from aiming.
And monsters can be immune to spells. And there is no way to "bless" a non-clerical spell in order to let it work on non-corporeal undead, ever.
>>12. Weapon damage affects performance, TM spells can't get "damaged."
Nerve damage affects many aspects of spells, like how much mana can be safely used in it, and can affect things like effective TM. And spell casters are extremely prone to achieving nerve damage at the slightest excuse. And there are, as yet, still no common non-Empath methods of healing nerve damage.
>>a. Spells have mana limitaions and bows have ammo limitations.
Easier to recover and/or carry ammo than it is to increase mana available.
>>b. I can't pump more mana into my ranged to make it more damaging.
Subject, as mentioned, to mana limitations. And I can't "create" most TM spells in a different room, as compared to player-created arrows and bows.
>>c. I can't "charge" up my ranged and then focus on it to get an added boost.
Again, much more limited, even for those able to use worn cambrinth than for those able to make their own ranged weaponry. It takes mana to charge any cambrinth, and that takes from the same pool that it comes from to prepare the spell.
The main benefit of cambrinth (and harnessing) is because mana attunement usage is not at a static progression. It does not take twice as much mana attunement to cast a spell prepared at 10 mana as it does to cast one prepared at 5 mana, it takes more (potentially significantly more) mana than that.
Not to mention that spell mana limits are very strongly tied to three (3) skills, instead of just the one for using a bow.
>>d. I can't prep ranged weapons with no arms/hands. Nor do other things with my hands while using ranged.
Really? If you time it right, it is easy to pick up those spare arrows littering the ground during the aim time without affecting aim; you just need to make sure that your left hand is empty before you get the fully aimed message. I have done that myself, in the past.
And don't forget that the open hand requirement still exists for certain TM spells. Which can actually be harder to deal with than bows, since it isn't consistent across the list.
>>e. Ranged attacks seem to rely on good balance more then TM spells
Ranged attacks rely on fewer stats for effect than TM spells, much less Sv spells.
>>f. Nap can't be used with any ranged attack.
And your point there is? It used to be required for some spells (talk about hand requirements), but now it requires a skill not many people work on anyhow in order to provide any benefit to a spell cast, and 6 silver (give or take) per cast is fairly stiff for the (apparently) minor benefit is provides.
>>Even with SOL MPP MaPP and ben up my cleric has a much harder time with LX then TM. It's not even comparable. Vast differance. I prefer TM trainning much more. Is your ranged weapon near your TM skill?
No, much lower. And much quicker and easier (IMO) to kill with when I am training it.
And I have to say that I haven't noticed much of an evasion penalty when I use any of my ranged weapons as compared to any other weapon or spell use. Then again, my secondary weapon skill is brawling, so that may affect my opinion.
~Kyn (Kynevon)
Kynevon's DR Links Page: http://kynevon.info
Mac OS X FE: http://www.play.net/software/warlock-info.asp
Amagaim's What to Hunt list: http://kynevon.info/What2Hunt.xls
"We're not lost. We're just geographically confused." Brian, KoDT
Seems liek most of your points boil down to mana constraints more then any thing eles. There are many magic skills that can aid that problem no?
Can you not hit most things with X amount of TM as you can with X ammount of a bow/xbow?
I agree cadderly Thrown is retard right now and far to easy.
Halfling,
http://www.beyondgoodevil.org/users/datarealms/
Can you not hit most things with X amount of TM as you can with X ammount of a bow/xbow?
I agree cadderly Thrown is retard right now and far to easy.
Halfling,
http://www.beyondgoodevil.org/users/datarealms/
Cadderly,
Heavy thrown is the exception. I think this is a very dubious arguement in either direction. My primary weapon is HX, and frankly its fair inferior to either Harm Evil or Long bow or Thrown. I have played around with bows and with the exception of Heavy Thrown, ranged and TM are pretty comparable with both drawbacks and benefits.
Flavius
Heavy thrown is the exception. I think this is a very dubious arguement in either direction. My primary weapon is HX, and frankly its fair inferior to either Harm Evil or Long bow or Thrown. I have played around with bows and with the exception of Heavy Thrown, ranged and TM are pretty comparable with both drawbacks and benefits.
Flavius
>>Can you not hit most things with X amount of TM as you can with X ammount of a bow/xbow?
Maybe, but which does more damage? In my (admittedly somewhat limited) experience, bow far outperforms TM for killing power.
I have found it much easier to kill, as an example, a ship's rat with no ranks at all of bow as compared to 4 ranks of TM. More damage, less fatigue burned, and easier (especially at that level) to get quicker/more shots with the bow than with the TM spell.
>>Seems liek most of your points boil down to mana constraints more then any thing eles. There are many magic skills that can aid that problem no?
Yes and no.
Additional Power Perception can allow more mana availability, but it is still limited by the actual mana available in the area.
Additional Primary Magic only increases the maximum mana you can put inot a spell, and overcoming your target's MR/BMR, no effect at all on mana efficiency, and all spells have a maximum mana cap.
Additional Harness Ability can allow both a larger mana attunement pool (to the key of 1 more attunement point for every 10 ranks of skill), and improved mana usage (based off of the mana availability that PP gives), but it is slow and very vulnerable to room mana availability. Which also affects the ability to "harness" and hold mana to be used in a cast spell, or for holding a held-mana spell.
Additional Magical Devices skill can allow the use of Cambrinth, but until the upper 100's in MD, it is not really a faintly usable combat skill (you can use a pre-charged and pre-tuned piece of cambrinth once, for the first spell cast); and even after that you need to have an open hand to charge and tune a worn piece of camb, incurring both RT and mana attunement drain.
Additional Targeted Magic skill only acts as a modifier for the amount of PM-determined potential damage that the spell could do that actually gets done, and that is a skill vs (multiple) skill contest, just like ranged.
One of the main differences is that an archer can get more shots by carrying more arrows. where a spell caster is limited to the mana available in the room he is in, or having to move to a "better" room. And you have to hunt where the monsters are, not necessarily where the mana is best for you.
~Kyn (Kynevon)
Kynevon's DR Links Page: http://kynevon.info
Mac OS X FE: http://www.play.net/software/warlock-info.asp
Amagaim's What to Hunt list: http://kynevon.info/What2Hunt.xls
"We're not lost. We're just geographically confused." Brian, KoDT
Maybe, but which does more damage? In my (admittedly somewhat limited) experience, bow far outperforms TM for killing power.
I have found it much easier to kill, as an example, a ship's rat with no ranks at all of bow as compared to 4 ranks of TM. More damage, less fatigue burned, and easier (especially at that level) to get quicker/more shots with the bow than with the TM spell.
>>Seems liek most of your points boil down to mana constraints more then any thing eles. There are many magic skills that can aid that problem no?
Yes and no.
Additional Power Perception can allow more mana availability, but it is still limited by the actual mana available in the area.
Additional Primary Magic only increases the maximum mana you can put inot a spell, and overcoming your target's MR/BMR, no effect at all on mana efficiency, and all spells have a maximum mana cap.
Additional Harness Ability can allow both a larger mana attunement pool (to the key of 1 more attunement point for every 10 ranks of skill), and improved mana usage (based off of the mana availability that PP gives), but it is slow and very vulnerable to room mana availability. Which also affects the ability to "harness" and hold mana to be used in a cast spell, or for holding a held-mana spell.
Additional Magical Devices skill can allow the use of Cambrinth, but until the upper 100's in MD, it is not really a faintly usable combat skill (you can use a pre-charged and pre-tuned piece of cambrinth once, for the first spell cast); and even after that you need to have an open hand to charge and tune a worn piece of camb, incurring both RT and mana attunement drain.
Additional Targeted Magic skill only acts as a modifier for the amount of PM-determined potential damage that the spell could do that actually gets done, and that is a skill vs (multiple) skill contest, just like ranged.
One of the main differences is that an archer can get more shots by carrying more arrows. where a spell caster is limited to the mana available in the room he is in, or having to move to a "better" room. And you have to hunt where the monsters are, not necessarily where the mana is best for you.
~Kyn (Kynevon)
Kynevon's DR Links Page: http://kynevon.info
Mac OS X FE: http://www.play.net/software/warlock-info.asp
Amagaim's What to Hunt list: http://kynevon.info/What2Hunt.xls
"We're not lost. We're just geographically confused." Brian, KoDT
Kyn,
I am not sure what the real arguement here is? That ranged is better than Targetted Magic overall? Because its a pretty apples and oranges arguement.
As a cleric, I use TM, and my primary weapon is HX. I also dabble in short bow and heavy thrown.
Now when I am using TM, I can use any or all of my defenses- I can have my shield up, I can parry, I can evade. I have a defensive penalty to my evasion for a few moments, but its minimal and I still have my shield or parry up.
When I am using a bow, the only defense that can be used is evasion. With a HX, the only viable HX are not usable with shields. And there is a substantial defensive penalty for just holding a bow or crossbow, not just while aiming.
With TM, when I am preparing a spell, there is no RT. With bows there is minimal but with HX it is upwards of 11 seconds of not being able to do anything.
With TM there is no weight or encumbrance. With bows there is a slight weight, but for longbows its a matter of where the bow will fit. For Crossbows the weight is substantial. Carrying a number of arrows or bolts adds up in weight also.
And of course certain TM spells have their specific advantages- multiple shards, death from above, negating shields/armor(Harm Evil) and others I am sure I am not familiar with. Certain guilds under certain circumstances get to dual load bows and/or snipe. But I certainly can't do those things with my ranged weapons.
And of course power. I can pack mana into a TM spell. Its not as efficient as lots of little shots, but if I need to kill something quickly, I can do so. I can one shot kill most anything at my level using Harm Evil if I want to and work it. I cannot one shot anything near me with my HX. The closest equivelent is the power player made arrows- the claymores on a stick. But these are rare and expensive.
Of course- I use both- often at the same time. Both Ranged and TM are usable and frankly both are better than melee combat.
I don't see really what the point of the arguement is. Is it that ranged should be made less powerful? Less flexible? Or is it that TM should be more powerful?
Its easy to complain about what you feel is wrong, but its more useful to make suggestions on how to balance things out the way you would like to see them balanced.
Flavius
I am not sure what the real arguement here is? That ranged is better than Targetted Magic overall? Because its a pretty apples and oranges arguement.
As a cleric, I use TM, and my primary weapon is HX. I also dabble in short bow and heavy thrown.
Now when I am using TM, I can use any or all of my defenses- I can have my shield up, I can parry, I can evade. I have a defensive penalty to my evasion for a few moments, but its minimal and I still have my shield or parry up.
When I am using a bow, the only defense that can be used is evasion. With a HX, the only viable HX are not usable with shields. And there is a substantial defensive penalty for just holding a bow or crossbow, not just while aiming.
With TM, when I am preparing a spell, there is no RT. With bows there is minimal but with HX it is upwards of 11 seconds of not being able to do anything.
With TM there is no weight or encumbrance. With bows there is a slight weight, but for longbows its a matter of where the bow will fit. For Crossbows the weight is substantial. Carrying a number of arrows or bolts adds up in weight also.
And of course certain TM spells have their specific advantages- multiple shards, death from above, negating shields/armor(Harm Evil) and others I am sure I am not familiar with. Certain guilds under certain circumstances get to dual load bows and/or snipe. But I certainly can't do those things with my ranged weapons.
And of course power. I can pack mana into a TM spell. Its not as efficient as lots of little shots, but if I need to kill something quickly, I can do so. I can one shot kill most anything at my level using Harm Evil if I want to and work it. I cannot one shot anything near me with my HX. The closest equivelent is the power player made arrows- the claymores on a stick. But these are rare and expensive.
Of course- I use both- often at the same time. Both Ranged and TM are usable and frankly both are better than melee combat.
I don't see really what the point of the arguement is. Is it that ranged should be made less powerful? Less flexible? Or is it that TM should be more powerful?
Its easy to complain about what you feel is wrong, but its more useful to make suggestions on how to balance things out the way you would like to see them balanced.
Flavius
>>I am not sure what the real arguement here is? That ranged is better than Targetted Magic overall? Because its a pretty apples and oranges arguement.
Not my arguement originally, but I was just trying to point out to those who use ranged without actual magic experience that TM is not wihtout its own drawbacks.
>>Now when I am using TM, I can use any or all of my defenses- I can have my shield up, I can parry, I can evade. I have a defensive penalty to my evasion for a few moments, but its minimal and I still have my shield or parry up.
For Warrior Mages, there are TM spells that require an open hand. When trying to use those spells, you either have to remember to enmpty a hand, or deal with a blanket failure message. GZ, as an example. I am not sure if ALA or AEL require an open hand or not.
>>Its easy to complain about what you feel is wrong, but its more useful to make suggestions on how to balance things out the way you would like to see them balanced.
Didn't I state it earlier in this thread? Either fix the amount of mana available, since it is seriously deficient, at least for WMs in many hunting grounds; or fix the damage ratio so that it is more firmly based on TM not just for % of potential, but that the potential is based (at least in part) off of TM for TM spells.
~Kyn (Kynevon)
Kynevon's DR Links Page: http://kynevon.info
Mac OS X FE: http://www.play.net/software/warlock-info.asp
Amagaim's What to Hunt list: http://kynevon.info/What2Hunt.xls
"We're not lost. We're just geographically confused." Brian, KoDT
Not my arguement originally, but I was just trying to point out to those who use ranged without actual magic experience that TM is not wihtout its own drawbacks.
>>Now when I am using TM, I can use any or all of my defenses- I can have my shield up, I can parry, I can evade. I have a defensive penalty to my evasion for a few moments, but its minimal and I still have my shield or parry up.
For Warrior Mages, there are TM spells that require an open hand. When trying to use those spells, you either have to remember to enmpty a hand, or deal with a blanket failure message. GZ, as an example. I am not sure if ALA or AEL require an open hand or not.
>>Its easy to complain about what you feel is wrong, but its more useful to make suggestions on how to balance things out the way you would like to see them balanced.
Didn't I state it earlier in this thread? Either fix the amount of mana available, since it is seriously deficient, at least for WMs in many hunting grounds; or fix the damage ratio so that it is more firmly based on TM not just for % of potential, but that the potential is based (at least in part) off of TM for TM spells.
~Kyn (Kynevon)
Kynevon's DR Links Page: http://kynevon.info
Mac OS X FE: http://www.play.net/software/warlock-info.asp
Amagaim's What to Hunt list: http://kynevon.info/What2Hunt.xls
"We're not lost. We're just geographically confused." Brian, KoDT
>My primary weapon is HX, and frankly its fair inferior to either Harm Evil or Long bow
>I have played around with bows and with the exception of Heavy Thrown, ranged and TM are pretty comparable with both drawbacks and benefits.
How can you say HX is "fair inferior" to longbow but then say both are "comparable" to TM?
>I have played around with bows and with the exception of Heavy Thrown, ranged and TM are pretty comparable with both drawbacks and benefits.
How can you say HX is "fair inferior" to longbow but then say both are "comparable" to TM?
>My primary weapon is HX, and frankly its fair inferior to either Harm Evil or Long bow
>I have played around with bows and with the exception of Heavy Thrown, ranged and TM are pretty comparable with both drawbacks and benefits.
"How can you say HX is "fair inferior" to longbow but then say both are "comparable" to TM? "
thats a good question- since I posted this awhile back I had to think about it. It comes down to a range- HX currently is far inferior to Long Bow when you compare total advantages and disadvantages- including hitting power, balance, ammo, etc. LX probably comes out worse, but I don't know personally. But from my experiences with HX, HT and Short Bow, and watching LB and CB, I believe that within a range all of these weapons are comparable to TM. Currently I think that HT eclipses it, and that slings are way short changed. I think that Crossbows need some loving. But the original post complained that TM was far inferior to ranged weapons, and in my experience I think that DR has done a relatively good job of balancing the power of both.
>I have played around with bows and with the exception of Heavy Thrown, ranged and TM are pretty comparable with both drawbacks and benefits.
"How can you say HX is "fair inferior" to longbow but then say both are "comparable" to TM? "
thats a good question- since I posted this awhile back I had to think about it. It comes down to a range- HX currently is far inferior to Long Bow when you compare total advantages and disadvantages- including hitting power, balance, ammo, etc. LX probably comes out worse, but I don't know personally. But from my experiences with HX, HT and Short Bow, and watching LB and CB, I believe that within a range all of these weapons are comparable to TM. Currently I think that HT eclipses it, and that slings are way short changed. I think that Crossbows need some loving. But the original post complained that TM was far inferior to ranged weapons, and in my experience I think that DR has done a relatively good job of balancing the power of both.
well seeing as how ive been killed by one spell in a spar prolly 100 times without even targetting me, like chain lightning which uses tm too, and not yet in my life have i lost a spar to someone near my level in one shot from a bow even fully aimed, id wager to say magic is not weaker heh
Don't fear the dark, fear what hides in it.
Don't fear the dark, fear what hides in it.
Valcer's hate of magic aside, his point rings true. I can one shot kill things with magic through putting more mana into the spell. Can't say that any of my characters have ever been able to do the same with a bow...
-Seraphael, player of
"We have loved the stars too fondly to be fearful of the night."
- Tombstone epitaph of two amateur astronomers
-Seraphael, player of
"We have loved the stars too fondly to be fearful of the night."
- Tombstone epitaph of two amateur astronomers
>>Valcer's hate of magic aside, his point rings true. I can one shot kill things with magic through putting more mana into the spell. Can't say that any of my characters have ever been able to do the same with a bow...
You do that in bows by making/buying better bows and arrows from the high end people. Only difference is that in magic it is based only and purely off of your own skill, not that of your supplier.
Bows win. Again.
Kynevon in DR
Info Page http://kynevon.info
Mac OS X FE http://tinyurl.com/4btcl
What2Hunt
Excel http://tinyurl.com/44jlt
HTML http://tinyurl.com/6tpls
Free Satellite Dish http://tinyurl.com/6mfv3
Affiliate Sign-Up http://tinyurl.com/5bnkz
You do that in bows by making/buying better bows and arrows from the high end people. Only difference is that in magic it is based only and purely off of your own skill, not that of your supplier.
Bows win. Again.
Kynevon in DR
Info Page http://kynevon.info
Mac OS X FE http://tinyurl.com/4btcl
What2Hunt
Excel http://tinyurl.com/44jlt
HTML http://tinyurl.com/6tpls
Free Satellite Dish http://tinyurl.com/6mfv3
Affiliate Sign-Up http://tinyurl.com/5bnkz
>>You do that in bows by making/buying better bows and arrows from the high end people. Only difference is that in magic it is based only and purely off of your own skill, not that of your supplier.
I fail to see how spending 100s of plats on capped weapons trumps my ability to do it for free with my spells, both took training, mine was free.
>Bows win. Again.
I maintain advantage magic.
-Seraphael, player of
"We have loved the stars too fondly to be fearful of the night."
- Tombstone epitaph of two amateur astronomers
I fail to see how spending 100s of plats on capped weapons trumps my ability to do it for free with my spells, both took training, mine was free.
>Bows win. Again.
I maintain advantage magic.
-Seraphael, player of
"We have loved the stars too fondly to be fearful of the night."
- Tombstone epitaph of two amateur astronomers
my like of magic has nothing to do with the results of my spars
and i dont hate magic i like lots of magic, i hate overpowered spells when compared to other spells and abilities, and most the ones i hate have been agreed upon as being broken by gms, they just aint fixed em
Don't fear the dark, fear what hides in it.
and i dont hate magic i like lots of magic, i hate overpowered spells when compared to other spells and abilities, and most the ones i hate have been agreed upon as being broken by gms, they just aint fixed em
Don't fear the dark, fear what hides in it.
Personally, I think the only advantage of bows is the non-requirement of a room effect(mana) Sure, some places are harder to use bows(indoors on charging critters) but they always work. Trying to use a spell in no mana...
Samsaren Remlane
I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed man, target practice on the other hand, is another matter entirely.
Samsaren Remlane
I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed man, target practice on the other hand, is another matter entirely.
>>Use both
Good advice, while your at it, train all weapons. It's good for the soul too. :)
~
A hele'la head arrow lifts off the ground and flies toward a blood wolf!
The hele'la head arrow lands an overwhelming strike (Oooh, the next generation of wolfs are going to feel that!) to its chest!
Good advice, while your at it, train all weapons. It's good for the soul too. :)
~
A hele'la head arrow lifts off the ground and flies toward a blood wolf!
The hele'la head arrow lands an overwhelming strike (Oooh, the next generation of wolfs are going to feel that!) to its chest!
If the GMs gave rangers/warriors an ability called Barrage/Volley of Arrows that made them shoot out up to 12 arrows in a random direction. If you were the only one in the room and they all hit you they'd one shot you with one attack.
Most people don't die on the First CL strike its the subsequent strikes which make it deadly.
Most people don't die on the First CL strike its the subsequent strikes which make it deadly.
