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For some random reason I was looking at the core EXP code last night and ran across a random typo that could cause random results. Hopefully I've set the tone for this ... random.
Based on varying conditions this check was either defaulting to a more favorable pool size for those with very high intelligence or potentially hindering those with "above average intelligence." I'll try to be as detailed as possible.
If your intelligence is less than 30, this fix has no impact on your character.
If your intelligence is between 30 to 59, you may not notice a difference or in some cases you may notice an increased pool size.
If your intelligence is above 60, you likely have a smaller experience pool, but possibly won't.
Remember, random.
Wish I had better news but it's something we couldn't ignore as it could potentially have a greater negative impact if left unchecked.
/salute
-Ssra
"Following our will and whim..."
> Can we get confirmation one way or the other that Int/Wis continues to increase field xp drain all the way to 100? There are so many conflicting reports.
Conflicting reports? Everything I've reviewed provides a bonus for each and every TDP you spend.
The primary driver in fixing this bug was to ensure that was the case. There was a gap where it could potentially penalize you and that should never be the case.
Increasing a statistic should always be "a positive thing."
/salute
-Ssra
"Following our will and whim.."
Conflicting reports? Everything I've reviewed provides a bonus for each and every TDP you spend.
The primary driver in fixing this bug was to ensure that was the case. There was a gap where it could potentially penalize you and that should never be the case.
Increasing a statistic should always be "a positive thing."
/salute
-Ssra
"Following our will and whim.."
>Conflicting reports? Everything I've reviewed provides a bonus for each and every TDP you spend.
Where players get lost is that the old way Intel/Wisdom were used had logarithmic diminishing returns, so after 30 points the gain was so small that there was no point in training them.
I don't know if that was ever true, but that's what I read a lot about DR from 'a few years back'.
So players are curious if the returns from mentals are diminishing, and if so, if they diminish at that severity.
Where players get lost is that the old way Intel/Wisdom were used had logarithmic diminishing returns, so after 30 points the gain was so small that there was no point in training them.
I don't know if that was ever true, but that's what I read a lot about DR from 'a few years back'.
So players are curious if the returns from mentals are diminishing, and if so, if they diminish at that severity.
And given that there is no comparable contest (say, I need 60 strength to swing this haralun longsword reliably), I cannot say "I have 500 ranks of a primary skill, so by now I should have at least 50 wis/int".
Unless the name of the game for every guild is just 'train wis/int as much as possible to maximize learning'?
> Where players get lost is that the old way Intel/Wisdom were used had logarithmic diminishing returns, so after 30 points the gain was so small that there was no point in training them.
Each point of int/wis provides benefit.
If it's worth it is up to you to decide. I don't want to give away too much info but what was old ... is old.
/salute
-Ssra
"Following our will and whim.."
Each point of int/wis provides benefit.
If it's worth it is up to you to decide. I don't want to give away too much info but what was old ... is old.
/salute
-Ssra
"Following our will and whim.."
You can use RESPEC in test, but its use might be limited. Some of the options that were around for the 3.0 testing aren't around now. (And some were done via items, which aren't in the TEST instance anymore.) Sorcery is the only one players can set manually, if that's even still an option right now.
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
Newer is better but we're working with things on a small scale. We're talking about fractions of a percent when it comes to "exp drain per pulse." Each point does have a measurable impact but its something that's better measured over time as opposed to a short interval. When you play the game for 10 years ... those little fractions add up. =)
Since your pools are bigger for primary skills vs. tertiary skills each point of wisdom is going to be more efficient when applied to the larger pool and that is obviously manifest in the game today when you look at your EXP Tracker / Window.
If we ramp up for another major test I'll look into giving you more tools to manipulate skills/stats.
/salute
-Ssra
"Following our will and whim..."
Since your pools are bigger for primary skills vs. tertiary skills each point of wisdom is going to be more efficient when applied to the larger pool and that is obviously manifest in the game today when you look at your EXP Tracker / Window.
If we ramp up for another major test I'll look into giving you more tools to manipulate skills/stats.
/salute
-Ssra
"Following our will and whim..."
> It really disproportionately penalizes certain races/guilds.
So now we're going to have a discussion about how races/guilds without an affinity toward strength are penalized because they can't carry as much wealth generating loot?
It scales so you get the most bang for the buck at the low end. As long as you have 10 in mentals you're not dealing with any type of "penalty" and everything beyond that is gravy.
/salute
-Ssra
"Following our will and whim.."
So now we're going to have a discussion about how races/guilds without an affinity toward strength are penalized because they can't carry as much wealth generating loot?
It scales so you get the most bang for the buck at the low end. As long as you have 10 in mentals you're not dealing with any type of "penalty" and everything beyond that is gravy.
/salute
-Ssra
"Following our will and whim.."
>It scales so you get the most bang for the buck at the low end. As long as you have 10 in mentals you're not dealing with any type of "penalty" and everything beyond that is gravy.
Argh, this is exactly what I'm talking about with wanting to know how the stat breakdown works. Saying 'every point helps' isn't the same as saying 'it scales so you get more at the low end'.
I agree with THAYET, I wish Field XP drain rates were decoupled from stats. It removes some of the actual stat allocation choices that need to be made and makes it so people are just throwing points into wis/int because they're scared they aren't optimizing their learning rates, when in fact, the only reason they should be putting points into wis/int is because they want to do more damage with spells or succeed better with contested abilitites that rely on those stats.
I think having learning rates tied to wis/int (and disc? What ever happened there?) is a hold over from old DR. A stupid barbarian should still learn how to use a weapon just as well as an intelligent barbarian, and it seems silly to me to force one to train wis/int for part of a field xp drain maximization guess.
Realtalk for a moment: if we actually do decouple stats from exp gain, you wouldn't get 100+ stat results out of that. We'd probably, by my reckoning, normalize it somewhere in the 30-60 mark.
This would be a nerf at the high(est) end. Is this something everyone is willing to stomach?
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
This would be a nerf at the high(est) end. Is this something everyone is willing to stomach?
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
>>A stupid barbarian should still learn how to use a weapon just as well as an intelligent barbarian
A more intelligent, observant, and wise (more life experience) person will pick up details and techniques, and develop their own techniques, quicker than someone who isn't as intelligent, observant, or been around the block already.
I like having mental stats tied to EXP drain because they would have much less use if they didn't, IMO. If they weren't tied to exp drain and I didn't want to PvP on a NMU I would never put a single TDP in them (intell & wisdom, disc has plenty of other uses). Mentals may have some obscure uses that I am forgetting, but they wouldn't be enough to matter before I had 100 in all the physical stats.
A more intelligent, observant, and wise (more life experience) person will pick up details and techniques, and develop their own techniques, quicker than someone who isn't as intelligent, observant, or been around the block already.
I like having mental stats tied to EXP drain because they would have much less use if they didn't, IMO. If they weren't tied to exp drain and I didn't want to PvP on a NMU I would never put a single TDP in them (intell & wisdom, disc has plenty of other uses). Mentals may have some obscure uses that I am forgetting, but they wouldn't be enough to matter before I had 100 in all the physical stats.
>>DR-Ssra: This would be a nerf at the high(est) end. Is this something everyone is willing to stomach?
Decoupling the learning rates from stats (because they influence the choice of race and/or "force" players to train stats a certain way if they want to optimize) is a slippery slope.
I'm also not sure that I'd want to further homogenize the races by making mentals "not matter" to a large segment of the population.
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
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Decoupling the learning rates from stats (because they influence the choice of race and/or "force" players to train stats a certain way if they want to optimize) is a slippery slope.
I'm also not sure that I'd want to further homogenize the races by making mentals "not matter" to a large segment of the population.
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
Vote for DragonRealms on Top MUD Sites: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
Exp gain in DR could use a nerf. Lots of content whips by right now for little to no payoff except maybe short-term PVP goals and the strange euphoria that comes with a larger number. Not that it hasn't been lovely to see my old dusty main character jump from 30 to 80 in fraction of the time it took to get her to 30th, the main result has been I have that much less content to look forward to -- I feel like this contributed to shelving that character.
On the other hand I expect averaging exp gain would mostly affect people with skill levels where they've already passe all of DR's content and are just here for the numbers so ... shruuuug?
Your search-fu is pig dung!
On the other hand I expect averaging exp gain would mostly affect people with skill levels where they've already passe all of DR's content and are just here for the numbers so ... shruuuug?
Your search-fu is pig dung!
>> I expect averaging exp gain would mostly affect people with skill levels where they've already passe all of DR's content and are just here for the numbers so...
This is exactly what is being proposed. It wouldn't slow down anyone except the people have been investing in the same character for years.
This is exactly what is being proposed. It wouldn't slow down anyone except the people have been investing in the same character for years.
>> This would be a nerf at the high(est) end. Is this something everyone is willing to stomach?
I am, but I realize my voice is pretty tiny in the face of people who have min/maxed their mentals from the word go.
>> Exp gain in DR could use a nerf.
LOL no. Not even a little bit.
Thayet
Twitter: @thayelf
Tumblr: thayette.tumblr.com
I am, but I realize my voice is pretty tiny in the face of people who have min/maxed their mentals from the word go.
>> Exp gain in DR could use a nerf.
LOL no. Not even a little bit.
Thayet
Twitter: @thayelf
Tumblr: thayette.tumblr.com
>Realtalk for a moment: if we actually do decouple stats from exp gain, you wouldn't get 100+ stat results out of that. We'd probably, by my reckoning, normalize it somewhere in the 30-60 mark.
I'd say if we were going to do anything then I'd be more in favor of decoupling stats from race. Just wipe everyone and set every race to +/- 0 on all stats.
Race then becomes a RP tool rather than a min/max tool.
I'd say if we were going to do anything then I'd be more in favor of decoupling stats from race. Just wipe everyone and set every race to +/- 0 on all stats.
Race then becomes a RP tool rather than a min/max tool.
>>Badgopher: I'd say if we were going to do anything then I'd be more in favor of decoupling stats from race. Just wipe everyone and set every race to +/- 0 on all stats. Race then becomes a RP tool rather than a min/max tool.
The physical and mental characteristics of the races are an inseparable part of the RP. Part of the lore of Gor'Togs is that they are strong and resilient; part of the lore of Gnomes is that they are clever. Giving Gor'Togs and Gnomes equal stat costs would diminish the immersion of playing those races. Making every race stat-neutral would also render mundane the unusual or challenging race/guild combinations that some people enjoy playing.
And IMO, it is more fun to have meaningful choices instead of eleven races that only differ cosmetically.
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
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The physical and mental characteristics of the races are an inseparable part of the RP. Part of the lore of Gor'Togs is that they are strong and resilient; part of the lore of Gnomes is that they are clever. Giving Gor'Togs and Gnomes equal stat costs would diminish the immersion of playing those races. Making every race stat-neutral would also render mundane the unusual or challenging race/guild combinations that some people enjoy playing.
And IMO, it is more fun to have meaningful choices instead of eleven races that only differ cosmetically.
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
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>The physical and mental characteristics of the races are an inseparable part of the RP.
If this were true, we would have hard locks on stats, where a Tog must have X more strength than mentals before he can train mentals again.
But we don't.
Because race is an RP tool.
The racial profiles apply, like everything in DR, to the masses. Our players are 'special'.
If this were true, we would have hard locks on stats, where a Tog must have X more strength than mentals before he can train mentals again.
But we don't.
Because race is an RP tool.
The racial profiles apply, like everything in DR, to the masses. Our players are 'special'.
I am perceiving a whole lot of crazy in this thread, whether that's real or not IDK.
I am against decoupling EXP gain from int/wis. I am against setting aside racial bonuses. It would be too much homogenization. It's hard to decide where to spend my 10,000 TDPs right now. And that's a good thing. Part of the fun is debating where to invest. The GMs here say 10. Players probably will say 20-30 in stats and you're no longer "weak" in any of them. So we're not talking about true traps/character ruining effects.
I am against decoupling EXP gain from int/wis. I am against setting aside racial bonuses. It would be too much homogenization. It's hard to decide where to spend my 10,000 TDPs right now. And that's a good thing. Part of the fun is debating where to invest. The GMs here say 10. Players probably will say 20-30 in stats and you're no longer "weak" in any of them. So we're not talking about true traps/character ruining effects.
>>The GMs here say 10. Players probably will say 20-30 in stats and you're no longer "weak" in any of them. So we're not talking about true traps/character ruining effects.
Let's be clear here. 10 in a mental stat is when you reach the baseline of the equation and after that the equation skews beyond baseline into positive bonuses. I fully anticipate most players consider some degree of bonus to be normal (hence why I said we'd likely normalize well above 10 if we were going to normalize at all).
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
Let's be clear here. 10 in a mental stat is when you reach the baseline of the equation and after that the equation skews beyond baseline into positive bonuses. I fully anticipate most players consider some degree of bonus to be normal (hence why I said we'd likely normalize well above 10 if we were going to normalize at all).
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
If I want to make a character who is weak, I can opt out of or compensate for most activities that require strength or stamina. If I want to make a character that is sluggish or clumsy, I can opt out of or compensate for most activities that require reflexes and agility. I cannot opt out of the exp system. I cannot compensate for it. It is core to every single thing we do in the game.
There are ways to make races feel unique and less homogenized without making a single set of stats way more important than everything else. If anything, the disparity encourages broader homogeneity within the population because you are intensely incentivized to favor races who are at least neutral on mentals if you care about training efficiently. And honestly, races should be a roleplaying choice first, with the mechanics being balanced around making each race possess its own feel and its own niches.
I wish each stat was equally important, honestly, and that you picked and chose which stats you trained based on what you want to do with your character. And that will never be the case as long as experience is tied to mentals. I'm aware it'll never change, DR just isn't in a place where that can happen, but it's a bad model for advancement and it always has been.
Thayet
Twitter: @thayelf
Tumblr: thayette.tumblr.com
There are ways to make races feel unique and less homogenized without making a single set of stats way more important than everything else. If anything, the disparity encourages broader homogeneity within the population because you are intensely incentivized to favor races who are at least neutral on mentals if you care about training efficiently. And honestly, races should be a roleplaying choice first, with the mechanics being balanced around making each race possess its own feel and its own niches.
I wish each stat was equally important, honestly, and that you picked and chose which stats you trained based on what you want to do with your character. And that will never be the case as long as experience is tied to mentals. I'm aware it'll never change, DR just isn't in a place where that can happen, but it's a bad model for advancement and it always has been.
Thayet
Twitter: @thayelf
Tumblr: thayette.tumblr.com
I'll do something out of the ordinary and actually give you hard numbers. For Int and Wis, the following bonuses apply at key breakpoints:
Compared to baseline pool size, for each stat you get are at...
Int/Wis 30 = 112%
Int/Wis 60 = 121%
Int/Wis 90 = 125%
Int/Wis 120 = 130%
Disc also increases pool size, at 10% efficacy, thus continuing its trend of doing just a little bit of everything.
Thank Ssra for wanting to put these numbers up originally, and Zadraes for giving me approval to do so.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
Compared to baseline pool size, for each stat you get are at...
Int/Wis 30 = 112%
Int/Wis 60 = 121%
Int/Wis 90 = 125%
Int/Wis 120 = 130%
Disc also increases pool size, at 10% efficacy, thus continuing its trend of doing just a little bit of everything.
Thank Ssra for wanting to put these numbers up originally, and Zadraes for giving me approval to do so.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
>> I can opt out of or compensate for most activities that require reflexes and agility. I cannot opt out of the exp system.
You can opt out of learning at a super charged rate as easily as you can opt out of combat. They're both doable, but suboptimal ways of advancing (most) characters.
You can opt out of learning at a super charged rate as easily as you can opt out of combat. They're both doable, but suboptimal ways of advancing (most) characters.
>>Why don't spells/abilities that buff mentals also buff learning rates?
Because, you would be doing it wrong if you didn't constantly have an intel/wisdom/disc buff on you. DR players think baseline is fully bonused and anything else is a penalty and this would be no different. Then every guild who doesn't have those mental buffs would be complaining because other guilds can advance quicker than they can. Eventually every guild would have a buff for all 3 mental stats and everyone would be learning even faster than they are now.
Introducing something like that would have a huge ripple effect across game systems and players that would not be good for anyone.
Because, you would be doing it wrong if you didn't constantly have an intel/wisdom/disc buff on you. DR players think baseline is fully bonused and anything else is a penalty and this would be no different. Then every guild who doesn't have those mental buffs would be complaining because other guilds can advance quicker than they can. Eventually every guild would have a buff for all 3 mental stats and everyone would be learning even faster than they are now.
Introducing something like that would have a huge ripple effect across game systems and players that would not be good for anyone.
My vote... leave it alone and as is. I first rolled my character in 1996 and I chose Dwarf because I liked Dwarves. I didn't know the problems with agility/reflex learning but so what? I've learned to plan and build my character accordingly. Part of what's cool about this game is that stats and skills mean everything and circle means much less. Why try to change this awesome paradigm because some races have to spend more TDPs on one stat over another. Post 100 stat points it all "evens out" anyway, cost wise.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
>> Because, you would be doing it wrong if you didn't constantly have an intel/wisdom/disc buff on you.
How is that situation meaningfully different from what we currently have in place? Aren't you already "doing it wrong" if you don't have your mentals quite high? Aren't you already disadvantaged to some degree if you have a racial penalty to mentals, or a guild which theoretically values mentals less than other stats when it comes to sheer ability or spell efficacy?
It's a silly double standard to have in place, in my opinion.
Thayet
Twitter: @thayelf
Tumblr: thayette.tumblr.com
How is that situation meaningfully different from what we currently have in place? Aren't you already "doing it wrong" if you don't have your mentals quite high? Aren't you already disadvantaged to some degree if you have a racial penalty to mentals, or a guild which theoretically values mentals less than other stats when it comes to sheer ability or spell efficacy?
It's a silly double standard to have in place, in my opinion.
Thayet
Twitter: @thayelf
Tumblr: thayette.tumblr.com
We don't have the development hours to do the sexy things that people (both staff and players) want as it is. Why dream up a way to put development in limbo for another year or 2? Decoupling experience from mentals would be a nightmare to balance.
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>How is that situation meaningfully different from what we currently have in place? Aren't you already "doing it wrong" if you don't have your mentals quite high? Aren't you already disadvantaged to some degree if you have a racial penalty to mentals, or a guild which theoretically values mentals less than other stats when it comes to sheer ability or spell efficacy?
The difference is that if guild A had a mentals booster and guild B did not, suddenly guild A has a significant in-game advantage over guild B, because at the end of the day ranks determine (mostly) everything, and guild A can grind ranks faster.
Ergo every guild needs access to the same quality and quantity of mentals booster, and suddenly the 'new normal' is people running around with a 24x7 1-100 stat point buff to mentals.
When you're dealing with static points it's a trade off; 1 point in intel means 1 point not in something else. With buffs it's just all of them all the time.
The difference is that if guild A had a mentals booster and guild B did not, suddenly guild A has a significant in-game advantage over guild B, because at the end of the day ranks determine (mostly) everything, and guild A can grind ranks faster.
Ergo every guild needs access to the same quality and quantity of mentals booster, and suddenly the 'new normal' is people running around with a 24x7 1-100 stat point buff to mentals.
When you're dealing with static points it's a trade off; 1 point in intel means 1 point not in something else. With buffs it's just all of them all the time.
