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>> Honestly, bigger exp pools would be great from a purely selfish standpoint, because I'd love to be able to spend an hour or two locking stuff and then just chill for the rest of the day while my stuff ticks down ala GS. I don't know that this would be something other players would enjoy as much?
I haven't played GemStone much since you paid by the hour, but this an interesting thought. In DR, there's always a skill to lock. No matter how efficient you are, you can't keep all your skills moving.
In GS, from my memories, you'd go hunting until your mind couldn't hold anymore and then go rest on a super node to let it drain.
That certainly encouraged interaction. In DragonRealms, there's never a time when you're just letting things drain, if you're interested in min-maxing skills.
I know at one point super nodes were being considered in DragonRealms, and I think that's the reason why they wouldn't work. But from a social interaction and RP standpoint, they'd probably be helpful.
As a TF player, though, I like the system the way it is. It encourages me to try and maximize experience bit acquisition, so I can train more skills. I may not be able to make my main skills drain faster, but I can train wider by training more efficiently.
>> I haven't played GemStone much since you paid by the hour, but this an interesting thought. In DR, there's always a skill to lock. No matter how efficient you are, you can't keep all your skills moving.
In GS I think the pools drain much faster, so you're still going out to hunt every hour or so.
I kind of like the idea of gathering areas of all stripes being turned into places where experience gain was boosted but a lot of areas of the game would suffer from a lack of real gathering areas, not to mention the various issues around Rangers and Necromancers.
Thayet
Twitter: @thayelf
Tumblr: thayette.tumblr.com
In GS I think the pools drain much faster, so you're still going out to hunt every hour or so.
I kind of like the idea of gathering areas of all stripes being turned into places where experience gain was boosted but a lot of areas of the game would suffer from a lack of real gathering areas, not to mention the various issues around Rangers and Necromancers.
Thayet
Twitter: @thayelf
Tumblr: thayette.tumblr.com
I detest the idea of screwing those of us that choose to train hard so that those that choose to rp more can get their bits. I think you are all on a very slippery slope. There are plenty of other things that need fixed much more than EXP.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
>>DR-Armifer: Not really. TDPs can always be refactored, and I think it'd be healthier for the game in general to cap skill-based TDP. The only question is if it's worth the screaming.
You can't please everyone all the time, but I trust that GMs will only make changes intended to improve the game as a whole. The current paradigm of "train every skill because TDPs" is often cited as problematic, particularly in conjunction with the fact that there is currently no reason not to train 20 skills at a time for 12+ hours a day if you are in a position to do so.
>>DR-Ssra: It's certainly feasible but I would advise that such a system would require us to look into EXP drain at login.
Exp drain at login is among my favorite changes. Disabling it or nerfing it would just result in more people idling to drain experience. (I think that's worth avoiding, since not everyone idles in a private area.)
If anything, I would make it more efficient than it currently is (but still no more efficient than the in-game drain rates for tertiary skills).
>>Julian: TDP gain from only, for instance, your top 15 skills. Or TDPs only from your circling requirements (no idea how this math works out, just an example)
The issue with only granting TDPs from X skills is the math.
>>"What I found was, the wider the disparity between the 'main' and 'alternate' skills in the TDP equation, the worse off and better off some people were - The extremes were more extreme. Looking at the curves, I saw a sharper increase and decrease, which meant that more people were getting significant shakeups. Additionally, wide wide differences between the two, MORE people were suffering, with a smaller number gaining a HUGE number of TDPs. There were a few people losing an extreme amount, but more people were losing TDPs with wide splits. As I brought them closer together, I saw that the curves were less dramatic, and the differences were less extreme." --DR-Socharis (10/03/2012)
If we were to change the experience mechanics, I think the best option that has been proposed is the one where experience drain depends on the number of skills being trained, where you get a bonus for training fewer than X skills. I don't know what the status of that proposal is. (It may be one of the many projects affected by the passing of Socharis.)
Re: Long Time, No Post on 10/02/2012 09:38 PM EDT
>>Call it what you will, but a penalty is a penalty is a penalty.
Please see my earlier post about perspectives. It's a penalty or a bonus or both, and you can look at it in any of those ways. One thing it unequivocally is, though, is a CHANGE. It's different than it is now, and I encourage you to try to view DR3 from DR3's perspective instead of DR2's. The game will be different, easier in some ways and harder in others. It's different and not identical to the way it is today.
>>If somebody wants to play 20 hours a day and cap all their skills at 1750, so be it. If somebody else wants to play 30 mins a day and has only leveled their character to 20th after 10 years, so be it. But please, don't try to 'level the playing field' between these two characters because there is really no comparison.
So, let me try to present this in another way:
This change, fundamentally, gives people more options. You can train a few skills, you can train a medium number of skills, and you can train a lot of skills - Each decision has its own benefits and drawbacks. As the system exists now, there is no tradeoff between the two play styles - It is always better to train more skills. This mode of play only benefits people that have a ton of time to play (given that it takes a bit to warm up a rotation that keeps all N skills draining). What that means is, the people that are already getting ahead are getting a leg up from the system as it stands now. The new system withdraws that benefit - They already HAVE a huge benefit of being able to play and get active draining for hours on end, and they don't need even more help. Instead, now, the people with a crapton of time to play DR with can choose which mode of optimization they want to take part in. If you want to train a bunch of skills for TDPs, you'll want to keep a bunch of skills hot for a while. If your concern is keeping up with the Joneses, you'll still be ahead of him if you train a bunch of skills all day while Mr Jones only plays for a couple hours. The time you spend will still give you a massive edge on people without the same amount of time, you just don't get additional help from the way the system is tuned.
I feel like a lot of the rage surrounding this idea would find a HUGE issue with the idea of somebody getting a bonus to experience after being logged off for a while. This benefits people who don't play frequently, which also narrows the gap between people with a ton of time and people with less. Is this as upsetting of an idea? I ask because this is a fundamental part of almost every MMO that's been released to the public, and few people complain about those people that are getting ahead by 'rest experience'.
>>1) Only grant TDPs for a certain number of skills in your top skills, 2nd skills etc. Any excess is considered rudimentary and you are rewarded less.
That's incorrect - One of the first things I posted is that this idea turned out not to be a good idea, and we're not going to do it.
>>However, I would consider increasing this 'penalty' to well above 3-5 skills.
Again, this the numbers totally aren't set in stone. I've said this a few times already, which is why people getting so worked up about it seems weird. I'm not going to implement something that makes the game horrible to play for a ton of people - I'll find the sweet spot where the most people benefit and the ones who suffer suffer the least. RAILZ's suggestion seems reasonable (though again, not at all a final decision), and it's roughly what I was expecting to land on.
Re: New TDP Method on 10/03/2012 02:09 AM EDT
Grant a bonus for training fewer than N skills, where N is something like 10. There will be a gradient in there somewhere, so that people aren't as much in the mindset of 'I have an extra slot to train a skill for maximum efficiency, I'll add this random skill'
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
Vote for DragonRealms on Top MUD Sites: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
You can't please everyone all the time, but I trust that GMs will only make changes intended to improve the game as a whole. The current paradigm of "train every skill because TDPs" is often cited as problematic, particularly in conjunction with the fact that there is currently no reason not to train 20 skills at a time for 12+ hours a day if you are in a position to do so.
>>DR-Ssra: It's certainly feasible but I would advise that such a system would require us to look into EXP drain at login.
Exp drain at login is among my favorite changes. Disabling it or nerfing it would just result in more people idling to drain experience. (I think that's worth avoiding, since not everyone idles in a private area.)
If anything, I would make it more efficient than it currently is (but still no more efficient than the in-game drain rates for tertiary skills).
>>Julian: TDP gain from only, for instance, your top 15 skills. Or TDPs only from your circling requirements (no idea how this math works out, just an example)
The issue with only granting TDPs from X skills is the math.
>>"What I found was, the wider the disparity between the 'main' and 'alternate' skills in the TDP equation, the worse off and better off some people were - The extremes were more extreme. Looking at the curves, I saw a sharper increase and decrease, which meant that more people were getting significant shakeups. Additionally, wide wide differences between the two, MORE people were suffering, with a smaller number gaining a HUGE number of TDPs. There were a few people losing an extreme amount, but more people were losing TDPs with wide splits. As I brought them closer together, I saw that the curves were less dramatic, and the differences were less extreme." --DR-Socharis (10/03/2012)
If we were to change the experience mechanics, I think the best option that has been proposed is the one where experience drain depends on the number of skills being trained, where you get a bonus for training fewer than X skills. I don't know what the status of that proposal is. (It may be one of the many projects affected by the passing of Socharis.)
Re: Long Time, No Post on 10/02/2012 09:38 PM EDT
>>Call it what you will, but a penalty is a penalty is a penalty.
Please see my earlier post about perspectives. It's a penalty or a bonus or both, and you can look at it in any of those ways. One thing it unequivocally is, though, is a CHANGE. It's different than it is now, and I encourage you to try to view DR3 from DR3's perspective instead of DR2's. The game will be different, easier in some ways and harder in others. It's different and not identical to the way it is today.
>>If somebody wants to play 20 hours a day and cap all their skills at 1750, so be it. If somebody else wants to play 30 mins a day and has only leveled their character to 20th after 10 years, so be it. But please, don't try to 'level the playing field' between these two characters because there is really no comparison.
So, let me try to present this in another way:
This change, fundamentally, gives people more options. You can train a few skills, you can train a medium number of skills, and you can train a lot of skills - Each decision has its own benefits and drawbacks. As the system exists now, there is no tradeoff between the two play styles - It is always better to train more skills. This mode of play only benefits people that have a ton of time to play (given that it takes a bit to warm up a rotation that keeps all N skills draining). What that means is, the people that are already getting ahead are getting a leg up from the system as it stands now. The new system withdraws that benefit - They already HAVE a huge benefit of being able to play and get active draining for hours on end, and they don't need even more help. Instead, now, the people with a crapton of time to play DR with can choose which mode of optimization they want to take part in. If you want to train a bunch of skills for TDPs, you'll want to keep a bunch of skills hot for a while. If your concern is keeping up with the Joneses, you'll still be ahead of him if you train a bunch of skills all day while Mr Jones only plays for a couple hours. The time you spend will still give you a massive edge on people without the same amount of time, you just don't get additional help from the way the system is tuned.
I feel like a lot of the rage surrounding this idea would find a HUGE issue with the idea of somebody getting a bonus to experience after being logged off for a while. This benefits people who don't play frequently, which also narrows the gap between people with a ton of time and people with less. Is this as upsetting of an idea? I ask because this is a fundamental part of almost every MMO that's been released to the public, and few people complain about those people that are getting ahead by 'rest experience'.
>>1) Only grant TDPs for a certain number of skills in your top skills, 2nd skills etc. Any excess is considered rudimentary and you are rewarded less.
That's incorrect - One of the first things I posted is that this idea turned out not to be a good idea, and we're not going to do it.
>>However, I would consider increasing this 'penalty' to well above 3-5 skills.
Again, this the numbers totally aren't set in stone. I've said this a few times already, which is why people getting so worked up about it seems weird. I'm not going to implement something that makes the game horrible to play for a ton of people - I'll find the sweet spot where the most people benefit and the ones who suffer suffer the least. RAILZ's suggestion seems reasonable (though again, not at all a final decision), and it's roughly what I was expecting to land on.
Re: New TDP Method on 10/03/2012 02:09 AM EDT
Grant a bonus for training fewer than N skills, where N is something like 10. There will be a gradient in there somewhere, so that people aren't as much in the mindset of 'I have an extra slot to train a skill for maximum efficiency, I'll add this random skill'
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
Vote for DragonRealms on Top MUD Sites: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
> I'm not sure I follow this
confirmation:
> Your concern is that adjustments to the EXP model might cause you to lose fights?
I believe that what he was getting at is if he trains grinding skills at 6 hours everyday...Why should someone that is not interested in training even 1 hour a day expect a change to make their progression equal to his or at the least easier for them.
It has nothing to do with winning or loosing in PvP but everything to do with how enjoys spending his time IG. Should he be penalized or throttled for doing what he enjoys?
confirmation:
> Your concern is that adjustments to the EXP model might cause you to lose fights?
I believe that what he was getting at is if he trains grinding skills at 6 hours everyday...Why should someone that is not interested in training even 1 hour a day expect a change to make their progression equal to his or at the least easier for them.
It has nothing to do with winning or loosing in PvP but everything to do with how enjoys spending his time IG. Should he be penalized or throttled for doing what he enjoys?
The main issue he seems to have had was not wanting large numbers of people to lose TDPs and deal with the resultant fallout, which is a nonissue if you don't really care if people lose a lot of TDPs and get mad about it, then balance things around the new status quo. But that's a pretty major decision. And "can I deal with the whining" is probably a valid development question.
If we had experience pools that were large enough to last a day+ that wouldn't actually hurt powertrainers or hinder them in what they wish to do either.
Thayet
Twitter: @thayelf
Tumblr: thayette.tumblr.com
If we had experience pools that were large enough to last a day+ that wouldn't actually hurt powertrainers or hinder them in what they wish to do either.
Thayet
Twitter: @thayelf
Tumblr: thayette.tumblr.com
At the risk of another tangent its always funny to me that people ever choose humans. You can literally NEVER be ahead in stats. The best you can ever be is baseline average.
For example if I roll up a tog and do like
20 strength 20 stamina 10 agil 10 reflex 10 int 10 wis 10 dis 10 charisma Im way ahead! You can never be ahead as a human especially endgame. Everything eventually gets to 100 and then the penalties or bonuses are even more severe.
I guess people choose humans for RP reasons but from a numbers perspective you can't win, the best you can ever do is tie.
Don't forget to vote for dragonrealms:
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For example if I roll up a tog and do like
20 strength 20 stamina 10 agil 10 reflex 10 int 10 wis 10 dis 10 charisma Im way ahead! You can never be ahead as a human especially endgame. Everything eventually gets to 100 and then the penalties or bonuses are even more severe.
I guess people choose humans for RP reasons but from a numbers perspective you can't win, the best you can ever do is tie.
Don't forget to vote for dragonrealms:
http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
Strength : 110 Reflex : 100 +
Agility : 100 Charisma : 100
Discipline : 106 Wisdom : 100
Intelligence : 100 Stamina : 100 +
Discipline matters in so many things why would you regret training it?
Don't forget to vote for dragonrealms:
http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
If anyone is interested in reading up on GS's experience system, you can do so here.
https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Experience
Notice there is an incentive to stay at the maximum mind state, and that pulses occur every 2m. The experience system there is far more similar to DR before the xp overhaul - very small field xp pools, fairly rapid drain, larger drain with fuller pools.
That aside - I'd like to see TDP gain balanced by skillset placement, but sincerely doubt HLCs would let themselves be nerfed like that. Since people have been incentivized to train >lots of weapons and armors on all characters, I wager most people would be angry to see all those TDPs go, forgetting even the hoops they had to jump through to make that training possible (lightened swappable weapons, higher hindrance armor setups, etc)
https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Experience
Notice there is an incentive to stay at the maximum mind state, and that pulses occur every 2m. The experience system there is far more similar to DR before the xp overhaul - very small field xp pools, fairly rapid drain, larger drain with fuller pools.
That aside - I'd like to see TDP gain balanced by skillset placement, but sincerely doubt HLCs would let themselves be nerfed like that. Since people have been incentivized to train >lots of weapons and armors on all characters, I wager most people would be angry to see all those TDPs go, forgetting even the hoops they had to jump through to make that training possible (lightened swappable weapons, higher hindrance armor setups, etc)
> At the risk of another tangent its always funny to me that people ever choose humans. You can literally NEVER be ahead in stats. The best you can ever be is baseline average.
This isn't true. There are stat distributions that are cheapest for humans to achieve--not as cheap as a hypothetical race with stat modifiers suited to that distribution, but cheaper than any of the other ten playable races.
I was interested in this exact question 5 years ago, so I brute forced it. My search came up with 23 different distributions in my search space that favored humans; sadly, I don't have notes on what any of them were, but I could do it again if anyone really cares.
This isn't true. There are stat distributions that are cheapest for humans to achieve--not as cheap as a hypothetical race with stat modifiers suited to that distribution, but cheaper than any of the other ten playable races.
I was interested in this exact question 5 years ago, so I brute forced it. My search came up with 23 different distributions in my search space that favored humans; sadly, I don't have notes on what any of them were, but I could do it again if anyone really cares.
I vastly prefer DR's experience system to GS's. Yeah things take a while to train, yeah it can be tedious at times, but I've always enjoyed the feeling of 'earning' the individual ranks on some level, personally.
My overall opinion on experience and tdp changes would be: If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
I know GM's get burned out on certain projects, and often are looking for other areas to explore, but I'd much rather see the development hours go towards fleshing out guilds, expanding combat, magic, crafting systems, and other playable aspects of the game.
There are thousands of ways to enjoy this game. If you don't like the grind, don't grind.
>befriend clear all
You are now friendless.
My overall opinion on experience and tdp changes would be: If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
I know GM's get burned out on certain projects, and often are looking for other areas to explore, but I'd much rather see the development hours go towards fleshing out guilds, expanding combat, magic, crafting systems, and other playable aspects of the game.
There are thousands of ways to enjoy this game. If you don't like the grind, don't grind.
>befriend clear all
You are now friendless.
>>There are thousands of ways to enjoy this game. If you don't like the grind, don't grind.
This. I grind because that's how I enjoy playing this game, not because of some pointless arms race that can never be won. If you (general) feel you have to do this because of... whatever reason, then maybe you (general) should re-evaluate why you are playing the game.
I am fine with how things are right now, and would rather see development go towards the on-going 3.x changes and not back to exp/tdps again for the third time in less than a decade.
This. I grind because that's how I enjoy playing this game, not because of some pointless arms race that can never be won. If you (general) feel you have to do this because of... whatever reason, then maybe you (general) should re-evaluate why you are playing the game.
I am fine with how things are right now, and would rather see development go towards the on-going 3.x changes and not back to exp/tdps again for the third time in less than a decade.
>> Ssra
Really appreciate everything you've posted in the thread so far. I'm always happy to hear about it when GMs actually go play the game because it feels like when they do that a lot of great things happen as they get to experience firsthand where QOL changes are needed, on top of just generally staying in touch with how the game is doing. I understand it can be hard to fit playing in to what's already a demanding schedule so it's really appreciated. It is also very nice to know that you're actively thinking about ways to be kinder to other playstyles.
>> There are thousands of ways to enjoy this game. If you don't like the grind, don't grind.
Yet everything you listed in the previous line requires ranks, frequently many ranks, to even access, much less be any good at doing. Which is fine, as it's a skill-based game and nobody wants to take that aspect away or tell you that you can't train all day if that's what you enjoy doing. But it's contradictory to tell people to just go do something else if they don't like how grindy the game feels and not bother making suggestions about how to alleviate some of that and make those milestones feel more attainable when the vast majority of activities to do in the game require you to have ranks in certain skills to so much as gain access to them, much less be competent in those activities.
People keep attempting to reframe this discussion as some kind of competition or "arms race", and it would be nice if that could stop, because that isn't the context this discussion is taking place in.
Thayet
Twitter: @thayelf
Tumblr: thayette.tumblr.com
Really appreciate everything you've posted in the thread so far. I'm always happy to hear about it when GMs actually go play the game because it feels like when they do that a lot of great things happen as they get to experience firsthand where QOL changes are needed, on top of just generally staying in touch with how the game is doing. I understand it can be hard to fit playing in to what's already a demanding schedule so it's really appreciated. It is also very nice to know that you're actively thinking about ways to be kinder to other playstyles.
>> There are thousands of ways to enjoy this game. If you don't like the grind, don't grind.
Yet everything you listed in the previous line requires ranks, frequently many ranks, to even access, much less be any good at doing. Which is fine, as it's a skill-based game and nobody wants to take that aspect away or tell you that you can't train all day if that's what you enjoy doing. But it's contradictory to tell people to just go do something else if they don't like how grindy the game feels and not bother making suggestions about how to alleviate some of that and make those milestones feel more attainable when the vast majority of activities to do in the game require you to have ranks in certain skills to so much as gain access to them, much less be competent in those activities.
People keep attempting to reframe this discussion as some kind of competition or "arms race", and it would be nice if that could stop, because that isn't the context this discussion is taking place in.
Thayet
Twitter: @thayelf
Tumblr: thayette.tumblr.com
>>If we had experience pools that were large enough to last a day+ that wouldn't actually hurt powertrainers or hinder them in what they wish to do either.
This is what I don't want. I enjoy watching numbers go up each day. Seeing what one is closest to ranking next, which of my favorite skills are closest to the next "round number" like 50 or 100.
The way I understand it, you want to be able to hunt for an hour and then drain all day. Which... yay for you? What am I going to do for the other 10 hours I'm playing? You really want me interacting with the populace that much more? If you find that amusing, think of all the people that find time to be jerks now, think of all the free time they'll have to "RP" with you. So what then, we "rebalance" tdps again, and create deficits for those of us who like to train? That was awful last time. It'll be worse this time.
Sounds great. I'll pass. I guess be careful what you wish for.
A large part of my enjoyment of this game is getting TDPs, I set goals for myself, and want to hit X number of ranks per circle and everything else. I'm sorry you don't, or can't enjoy the game the same way. I no longer enjoy RPing all day and not being big enough to do anything physical when I want to. If you want to do that, that's on you. But I shouldn't need to suffer because of it.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
This is what I don't want. I enjoy watching numbers go up each day. Seeing what one is closest to ranking next, which of my favorite skills are closest to the next "round number" like 50 or 100.
The way I understand it, you want to be able to hunt for an hour and then drain all day. Which... yay for you? What am I going to do for the other 10 hours I'm playing? You really want me interacting with the populace that much more? If you find that amusing, think of all the people that find time to be jerks now, think of all the free time they'll have to "RP" with you. So what then, we "rebalance" tdps again, and create deficits for those of us who like to train? That was awful last time. It'll be worse this time.
Sounds great. I'll pass. I guess be careful what you wish for.
A large part of my enjoyment of this game is getting TDPs, I set goals for myself, and want to hit X number of ranks per circle and everything else. I'm sorry you don't, or can't enjoy the game the same way. I no longer enjoy RPing all day and not being big enough to do anything physical when I want to. If you want to do that, that's on you. But I shouldn't need to suffer because of it.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
>tdp cap, et al.
Let's go the other way on this and allow tdps and ranks to be purchased with RPAs and plats.
You (general you) like to train, earn your skills and tdps through training.
You like to Arpee? Your diligence to your character and commitment to the community now pays off with more than just personal satisfaction.
You like to make money trading? Exchange that big red paperclip for some cold hard ranks and stats. You've earned it, baby!
Now all play styles have a way to get to the top. Since ranks are the only things that matter.
Heck, pay a monthly fee? Well, here's some ranks because you deserve it.
/s
To me, one of the things I rather enjoy about Dragonrealms is you reap what you sow. If you want to be a mastersmith, you put the time in. Wanna be that guy who punches a wyvern in the face wearing a pink loincloth laughing like a pirate? Better start brawling now. I have a modest group of friends that covers all sorts of play-styles. We celebrate the hitting of 100 ranks or 50th circle for the RP casual type just as thoroughly (or more so) as we do someone kicking over a 1k mark in their skill of choice. The reward is what YOU make of it. Speaking personally, one of the big enjoyments is to write and tweak scripts to do XYZ. I'm amused that I can train every weapon in one place in spite of hilarious gaps by utilizing a wide array of tools. THAT'S fun to me, and I only train a buncha weapons out of sheer enjoyment. I highly suggest a similar approach to those worried about a power creep.
If you (general you) are suffering from feeling like you're falling behind, or behind the curve, good news, there's almost always someone bigger (unless you're one of the 2-3 at cap).
Samsaren
If you (general you) are suffering from feeling like you're falling behind, or behind the curve, good news, there's almost always someone bigger (unless you're one of the 2-3 at cap).
Samsaren
>>People keep attempting to reframe this discussion as some kind of competition or "arms race", and it would be nice if that could stop, because that isn't the context this discussion is taking place in
I view it explicitly as an arms race. That's not a judgement on it being one, just that I've never not viewed discussions around how to maximize X as anything but an arms race, especially in Prime.
You don't need 1k ranks to enjoy hunting. Crafting was made explicitly so you could participate (and participate well!) before hitting high ranks. So on. Now, if your view on participate means "I want to make a silversteel riste" and not "I want to make a glaes dagger," then yeah you're going to be disappointed, but that's a whole different issue about what amounts to tangible fun in the game, and if it's possible to enjoy things like hunting at lower levels of skill (I think it is).
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
I view it explicitly as an arms race. That's not a judgement on it being one, just that I've never not viewed discussions around how to maximize X as anything but an arms race, especially in Prime.
You don't need 1k ranks to enjoy hunting. Crafting was made explicitly so you could participate (and participate well!) before hitting high ranks. So on. Now, if your view on participate means "I want to make a silversteel riste" and not "I want to make a glaes dagger," then yeah you're going to be disappointed, but that's a whole different issue about what amounts to tangible fun in the game, and if it's possible to enjoy things like hunting at lower levels of skill (I think it is).
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
> Let's go the other way on this and allow tdps and ranks to be purchased with RPAs and plats.
RPAs already allow for faster exp gain which in turn gains TDPs
> and plats
Have you been to an auction? Do you really think that paying for TDPs with plats would be a good thing? Anyone that can throw around the ammount of coin being spent at the aucitons of late could simply buy TDPs and then people would complain about that too.
> Heck, pay a monthly fee? Well, here's some ranks because you deserve it.
Pay to win. Now the guy who has the most most money to throw at Simu would be complained about.
Try again.
Speaking for myself, who is designing a video game at the moment, I have two interests in mind.
1) Most important to me is the issue that skill-gain TDP is a runaway system, with values that were decided 19 years ago. For a community that by and large bemoans homogenization, it is surprisingly that there is so little complaint about the situation where everyone is hitting 100+ stats in the high end with limited to irrelevant variation.
2) Slightly less important, but still important, is cutting down on the rewards for AFK scripting 24/7. I have no interest in slowing down even heavy players of the game, but there is a significant amount of legroom where we could potentially start tapering or shut off exp awards while still not even touching anyone's actual focused time in game.
I do not think either point is particularly shocking or out of character for us, but I am prepared to be surprised.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
1) Most important to me is the issue that skill-gain TDP is a runaway system, with values that were decided 19 years ago. For a community that by and large bemoans homogenization, it is surprisingly that there is so little complaint about the situation where everyone is hitting 100+ stats in the high end with limited to irrelevant variation.
2) Slightly less important, but still important, is cutting down on the rewards for AFK scripting 24/7. I have no interest in slowing down even heavy players of the game, but there is a significant amount of legroom where we could potentially start tapering or shut off exp awards while still not even touching anyone's actual focused time in game.
I do not think either point is particularly shocking or out of character for us, but I am prepared to be surprised.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
The problem with that is, you aren't going to penalize those at the tippy top who AFK because you "can't". So the people in the middle get squeezed while the people at the bottom say "yay, life is fair once more!". It's a pretty crap situation. I don't envy you guys.
There already is rampant AFKing. And short of one of you guys randomly stumbling onto them... they'll continue to do so. I don't know. I fail to see any good outcome from throttling exp gain. I'm interested in seeing what red names have to say. I could care less about the masses. Ultimately it's your call, not theirs.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
There already is rampant AFKing. And short of one of you guys randomly stumbling onto them... they'll continue to do so. I don't know. I fail to see any good outcome from throttling exp gain. I'm interested in seeing what red names have to say. I could care less about the masses. Ultimately it's your call, not theirs.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
>1) Most important to me is the issue that skill-gain TDP is a runaway system, with values that were decided 19 years ago. For a community that by and large bemoans homogenization, it is surprisingly that there is so little complaint about the situation where everyone is hitting 100+ stats in the high end with limited to irrelevant variation.
In my mind, the only thing driving the every stat to 100 race is the excessive price of stats post-100. There's no reason to spend 1500 tdp's to take one stat from 100 to 101 when I could be spending 300 tdps or less to take another stat from 99 to 100. I agree that homogenization in general is a bad thing, but I wonder if this issue might be addressable in other ways. Would things go haywire if stats were being pushed to 200+ with the same scaling cost that we see sub-100? That might remove the incentive for the 100 in everything race, at the very least.
>I have no interest in slowing down even heavy players of the game, but there is a significant amount of legroom where we could potentially start tapering or shut off exp awards while still not even touching anyone's actual focused time in game.
I'm not sure I understand how this would work, but I'm interested in hearing more.
>befriend clear all
You are now friendless.
In my mind, the only thing driving the every stat to 100 race is the excessive price of stats post-100. There's no reason to spend 1500 tdp's to take one stat from 100 to 101 when I could be spending 300 tdps or less to take another stat from 99 to 100. I agree that homogenization in general is a bad thing, but I wonder if this issue might be addressable in other ways. Would things go haywire if stats were being pushed to 200+ with the same scaling cost that we see sub-100? That might remove the incentive for the 100 in everything race, at the very least.
>I have no interest in slowing down even heavy players of the game, but there is a significant amount of legroom where we could potentially start tapering or shut off exp awards while still not even touching anyone's actual focused time in game.
I'm not sure I understand how this would work, but I'm interested in hearing more.
>befriend clear all
You are now friendless.
For stats to have differentiation I think you would have to rebalance TDP gain. Yes. I'm stating the obvious. But if you revalued stats completely and changed the costs after 100 to be more reasonable, then changed how they are gained, you could also roll in stat bonuses on items to push differentiation more. Or allow players to purchase permanent effects with tdps, like a boost to mana or health recovery rates, and other non stat features.
Honestly if tdps weren't generated by training all the skills there are a lot of combat skills I would probably drop. I don't really enjoy having them, but the cost is so minimal that there's no reason not to.
Honestly if tdps weren't generated by training all the skills there are a lot of combat skills I would probably drop. I don't really enjoy having them, but the cost is so minimal that there's no reason not to.
>> The way I understand it, you want to be able to hunt for an hour and then drain all day.
I'd be happy if pools were bigger, but I wouldn't go so far as to pin down an exact time. And I suspect if we saw pool sizes increase we'd also see time to lock increase too.
>> A large part of my enjoyment of this game is getting TDPs, I set goals for myself, and want to hit X number of ranks per circle and everything else.
I'm glad for you. Nobody wants to take that away from you.
>> You don't need 1k ranks to enjoy hunting.
No, but to use my own progress as an example, I did need 300 and change of various skills to even get access to Universal Solvent as it now requires 80th circle. I will need over 700 ranks and change in various skills to hit 150th. This is just to say there are milestones characters might care about reaching that have nothing to do with competing with other players. Giving some thought to "how much time should this take a player to reach assuming X/Y/Z hours a week" is not a bad thing and has nothing to do with how other players are spending their time.
>> I'm not sure I understand how this would work, but I'm interested in hearing more.
Shooting from the hip, but probably by applying throttles to people training for an amount of hours it is physically impossible to be ATK for.
Thayet
Twitter: @thayelf
Tumblr: thayette.tumblr.com
I'd be happy if pools were bigger, but I wouldn't go so far as to pin down an exact time. And I suspect if we saw pool sizes increase we'd also see time to lock increase too.
>> A large part of my enjoyment of this game is getting TDPs, I set goals for myself, and want to hit X number of ranks per circle and everything else.
I'm glad for you. Nobody wants to take that away from you.
>> You don't need 1k ranks to enjoy hunting.
No, but to use my own progress as an example, I did need 300 and change of various skills to even get access to Universal Solvent as it now requires 80th circle. I will need over 700 ranks and change in various skills to hit 150th. This is just to say there are milestones characters might care about reaching that have nothing to do with competing with other players. Giving some thought to "how much time should this take a player to reach assuming X/Y/Z hours a week" is not a bad thing and has nothing to do with how other players are spending their time.
>> I'm not sure I understand how this would work, but I'm interested in hearing more.
Shooting from the hip, but probably by applying throttles to people training for an amount of hours it is physically impossible to be ATK for.
Thayet
Twitter: @thayelf
Tumblr: thayette.tumblr.com
I can honestly say that I train now how I always have. I always wanted Elec to be a "beast". So that's how I trained. There are a few skills I'd drop, but not many. The only thing I really train that is an annoyance is all of the armor skills. Hindrance is silly, but it's simply too easy not to train them. I would love to see benefits to cashing in TDPs for other effects. Hell, I'd like to cash in RPA's for permanent effects.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
I am super pro the idea of a stat cap, but, I want to make another plug for making respeccing a far more accessible feature for players.
Somewhat tangentially related but kind of sort of in the same vibe of the discussion, I am also super pro the idea of limiting spell/ability slots to be more in line with the Barbarian paradigm, such that at 150th you do not have access to everything your guild offers, BUT, if and ONLY if, respecs are more accessible features for players. As in, once a week or so total stat and ability respecs.
Frankly, the argument that you don't have to play like a min-maxer doesn't hold a lot of water, because the game encourages that behavior. If you want less homogenization of characters, stat/TDP caps based on skillsets is a great way to go about it. I would much much rather see players be able to actually make choices for their characters, as in, a 'PvP spec' and a 'PvE spec' and an experimental and just for funsies spec, etc.
<<I am also super pro the idea of limiting spell/ability slots to be more in line with the Barbarian paradigm, such that at 150th you do not have access to everything your guild offers, BUT, if and ONLY if, respecs are more accessible features for players. As in, once a week or so total stat and ability respecs.
<<If you want less homogenization of characters, stat/TDP caps based on skillsets is a great way to go about it. I would much much rather see players be able to actually make choices for their characters, as in, a 'PvP spec' and a 'PvE spec' and an experimental and just for funsies spec, etc.
This approach would lead to more homogenization, as people will gravitate to cookie cutter builds if they could change their ability specs on a weekly basis.
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators
<<If you want less homogenization of characters, stat/TDP caps based on skillsets is a great way to go about it. I would much much rather see players be able to actually make choices for their characters, as in, a 'PvP spec' and a 'PvE spec' and an experimental and just for funsies spec, etc.
This approach would lead to more homogenization, as people will gravitate to cookie cutter builds if they could change their ability specs on a weekly basis.
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators
>>I would love to stop training 3 extra armors, and 6 extra weapons that I just use for TDPs.
>>But no one has to do this. People want to because they want to compete in a race where there is no end in sight.
>>3.0 initially planned this, kinda, and IIRC the board response was generally apathetic toward negative.
I'd like to echo this, no one is forcing you to train all those armors/weapons, you may feel like you have to do so but no guild leader is making you do it. I, for one, would be highly upset if i had to yet again rebalance my stats because someone thought i trained too deep and got too many TDPs out of the deal. it all comes down to how much time you have to put into developing your character and how diverse you have wanted to make him/her. two thumbs down to this idea sorry.
PS. i am also looking forward to having 100 in all stats in the distant future because it's always been a goal since we were told we could.
Damian, a voice from the distant and long-forgotten past.
AIM:DamianDR
>>But no one has to do this. People want to because they want to compete in a race where there is no end in sight.
>>3.0 initially planned this, kinda, and IIRC the board response was generally apathetic toward negative.
I'd like to echo this, no one is forcing you to train all those armors/weapons, you may feel like you have to do so but no guild leader is making you do it. I, for one, would be highly upset if i had to yet again rebalance my stats because someone thought i trained too deep and got too many TDPs out of the deal. it all comes down to how much time you have to put into developing your character and how diverse you have wanted to make him/her. two thumbs down to this idea sorry.
PS. i am also looking forward to having 100 in all stats in the distant future because it's always been a goal since we were told we could.
Damian, a voice from the distant and long-forgotten past.
AIM:DamianDR
>This approach would lead to more homogenization, as people will gravitate to cookie cutter builds if they could change their ability specs on a weekly basis.
I think the opposite would happen. If choice was forced (say, abilities summing to 100 spell slots, but you only ever get 70), then players would be forced to make choices. 'Cookie cutter' builds would only be an issue for guilds that lacked choice diversity, or, more to the point, had too many 'must have' abilities.
While a totally different game, a good way of seeing how this was handled was in Diablo 3. Blizzard was able to take snapshots of spec setups, and determine which abilities were OP or 'must have' by what being slotted by, say, >95% of players, and then take steps to balance them. In an ideal world, there's nothing wrong with two Warrior Mage's having identical 'PvP' builds, the problem is when ALL Warrior Mages have the same builds. By forcing choice (and allowing respeccing!) you increase the number of builds people can experiment with.
Personally, I'd be happy if everyone was able to just switch between specs, say, once a day. I'm all about forcing choice, but the notion that I should have to pay SIMU money to experiment with different choices, or roll up and grind up a whole new character is somewhat silly to me.
I don't see how it's not presently super homogenized by virtue of there being a single objectively best way to train your character but maybe I'm missing something?
Yeah you don't HAVE to train them like that but you are objectively worse off.
Thayet
Twitter: @thayelf
Tumblr: thayette.tumblr.com
Yeah you don't HAVE to train them like that but you are objectively worse off.
Thayet
Twitter: @thayelf
Tumblr: thayette.tumblr.com
And the reality of the game is if you don't train wide, you aren't competitive for PvP. Given that the name of the game shouldn't be to exclude people from interacting other people unless they train a certain way, it seems like making heterogeneity being a function of player choice instead of forced game mechanics is a better paradigm.
In other words, if 100th circle Warmie wants to PvP, they should be able to respec stats and abilities and have roughly the same number of stats available to a 100th circle Barbarian. I don't think at any point in the game should 100 stats across the board be a reasonable expectation - no reasonable pen and paper D&D player gets pissed when they don't roll 6 consecutive 18s, and that DR is turning into such an enterprise is somewhat frustrating.
I'm all for letting people who train harder be better at PvP, but the way things shake out now, the only way to be competitive in PvP is if you invest half a decade of time into min-maxing a character, presuming everyone else stops training. I appreciate the effort to make a newbie wars, but I'd rather see competition between players being less 'whelp, I was just Godsmote by that HLC, and there was nothing I can do about it' and more 'I selected the right abilities and leveled the playing field with that player, even though they outranked me'.
I suppose I'm saying a lot of players complain that PvP is borked in this game, and that not enough people PvP (or those that get ganked cry about it and hide behind their PvP Stance), but we're currently talking about a system that could be adjusted to help level the PvP playing field and those who invested heavily in it in a way that further imbalanced PvP are those who seem to be most vocal about not changing it.
<I'm all for letting people who train harder be better at PvP, but the way things shake out now, the only way to be competitive in PvP is if you invest half a decade of time into min-maxing a character, presuming everyone else stops training. I appreciate the effort to make a newbie wars, but I'd rather see competition between players being less 'whelp, I was just Godsmote by that HLC, and there was nothing I can do about it' and more 'I selected the right abilities and leveled the playing field with that player, even though they outranked me'.
That's not true, actually I've made a lot of good characters over the years, I always end up selling around the end game because PVP gets more boring at that point. The sweet point in pvp is actually while leveling characters and between the 70-150 range. So i'm not sure where the mentality that you can't PvP unless your high level comes from. Its almost the other way around, if you want to have any fun while doing it anyway. It seems to me that you post about these things, but don't probably try them out that often.
That's not true, actually I've made a lot of good characters over the years, I always end up selling around the end game because PVP gets more boring at that point. The sweet point in pvp is actually while leveling characters and between the 70-150 range. So i'm not sure where the mentality that you can't PvP unless your high level comes from. Its almost the other way around, if you want to have any fun while doing it anyway. It seems to me that you post about these things, but don't probably try them out that often.
