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>That's not true, actually I've made a lot of good characters over the years, I always end up selling around the end game because PVP gets more boring at that point. The sweet point in pvp is actually while leveling characters and between the 70-150 range.
Maybe the 'point at which you are finally nearly maximally effective given all your guilds abilities', but I wouldn't call that the 'sweet spot of PvP' (which, by the way, the range you gave is pretty hilariously huge, representing between, I'd say, 2 and 8 years of play depending... which, you know, was kind of my point about 5 year investments anyway). Some of the particularly fun PvP I've engaged in was at the <300 skill level range.
>It seems to me that you post about these things, but don't probably try them out that often.
And it seems to me like you're being contrary for the sake of being contrary, #UselessArguementativePoints
<Maybe the 'point at which you are finally nearly maximally effective given all your guilds abilities', but I wouldn't call that the 'sweet spot of PvP' (which, by the way, the range you gave is pretty hilariously huge, representing between, I'd say, 2 and 8 years of play depending... which, you know, was kind of my point about 5 year investments anyway). Some of the particularly fun PvP I've engaged in was at the <300 skill level range.
Not really, 150th level skills aren't that good. they if you take bits into place besides total ranks are like maybe 1/3 of max. But, yes it was a pretty large gap, and I meant it to be, because 70 is about where you can use most of your abilities, and 150 is about the time where things become more skewed.
If it takes you 8 years to make a 150 character, then I guess I don't know what to tell you. My most recent a thief is now about 45th circle in a few months. I've had a few good pvp encounters with him and i'm sure i'll have many more, though, I think he's to small and hasn't reached the point of being able to use his abilities without hindrances being to great.
Not really, 150th level skills aren't that good. they if you take bits into place besides total ranks are like maybe 1/3 of max. But, yes it was a pretty large gap, and I meant it to be, because 70 is about where you can use most of your abilities, and 150 is about the time where things become more skewed.
If it takes you 8 years to make a 150 character, then I guess I don't know what to tell you. My most recent a thief is now about 45th circle in a few months. I've had a few good pvp encounters with him and i'm sure i'll have many more, though, I think he's to small and hasn't reached the point of being able to use his abilities without hindrances being to great.
>If it takes you 8 years to make a 150 character, then I guess I don't know what to tell you.
Other than the fact that we're having a discussion about XP, and a number of people are talking about not being power levelers, so you should be particularly sensitive to the fact that not everyone plays the way you do? And the name of the game should be reducing player homogenization, not increasing it by spreading the player base across an increasingly vast training differential. I can understand an investment of 2 years - but we all know most characters have far, far more than 2 years separating them from other players.
>he's to small and hasn't reached the point of being able to use his abilities without hindrances being to great.
Yes, which is why we were discussing the '70-150' range as when you hit the 'sweet spot' of ability return? I guess?
And finally,
>But, yes it was a pretty large gap, and I meant it to be, because 70 is about where you can use most of your abilities, and 150 is about the time where things become more skewed.
Skewed how? I think the difference I see from my buffs has only increased - it's pretty reasonable for another PC my main is hunting with to have +/-200 more ranks than I do in a given skill. That's a rather large training investment, BUT, buffs within SoI at this range can also bring that differential within line. Indeed, that's somewhat how it works at all circles, scaled appropriately, but it isn't until ~80th that most guilds are really able to make use of ALL their abilities, give or take. Which is, of course, not to say fun PvP can't happen at lower ranks - you'll have remember of course, that you were the one who levied that particular straw man.
>>Skewed how? I think the difference I see from my buffs has only increased - it's pretty reasonable for another PC my main is hunting with to have +/-200 more ranks than I do in a given skill.
Past 150th you are looking at a difference of 300-500 ranks between primary and terts skills. Buffs can't make up that gap so when you have tert defenses like WM against a weapon prime Barb there is no way they can defend against them successfully, regardless of their buffs. Or tert Perception against Stealth prime Thieves. WM's are my favorite targets when I PvP on my thief because I know there is no way they are going to spot me (even with watch) and it will be an easy fight.
150th+ PvP isn't the pinnacle of PvP in DR, it's actually the least fun IMO with 70-130 being the best and under 30 being second. IMO noob PvP takes more player skill than any other range.
Past 150th you are looking at a difference of 300-500 ranks between primary and terts skills. Buffs can't make up that gap so when you have tert defenses like WM against a weapon prime Barb there is no way they can defend against them successfully, regardless of their buffs. Or tert Perception against Stealth prime Thieves. WM's are my favorite targets when I PvP on my thief because I know there is no way they are going to spot me (even with watch) and it will be an easy fight.
150th+ PvP isn't the pinnacle of PvP in DR, it's actually the least fun IMO with 70-130 being the best and under 30 being second. IMO noob PvP takes more player skill than any other range.
<Yes, which is why we were discussing the '70-150' range as when you hit the 'sweet spot' of ability return? I guess?
Yes, like I said my thief is 44th circle, he's not quite reached the point where his hindrance / ability + buffs can get him off the perception scale which I think it skewed atm. But that's ok he's still a newbie in my eyes. He has more to work for until he can do what he has the potential for.
<Skewed how? I think the difference I see from my buffs has only increased - it's pretty reasonable for another PC my main is hunting with to have +/-200 more ranks than I do in a given skill. That's a rather large training investment, BUT, buffs within SoI at this range can also bring that differential within line. Indeed, that's somewhat how it works at all circles, scaled appropriately, but it isn't until ~80th that most guilds are really able to make use of ALL their abilities, give or take. Which is, of course, not to say fun PvP can't happen at lower ranks - you'll have remember of course, that you were the one who levied that particular straw man.
I think fun pvp does happen at lower ranks, when folks CAN'T take full advantage of their guild buffs. That was my point, if every guild can take advantage of their full buffs then its almost like it equals out, but before that's possible folks can only pick and choose. Why I said that lower level pvp is often more fun and interesting. Honestly I don't know why I keep beating this dead horse, but at lower ranks pvp is more fun, why I keep going back to it, and I do it a lot. Sure high level PVP can be fun to, but it seems that a lot of people don't reach that point and the people that are at that point would more likely train than pvp. so...
I'd just like to add that PVP in the 20-50 range can be some of the most fun pvp around, I just didn't mention that because it takes a good group of people to make it happen, and currently not counting the f2p newb wars, there's not usually that big of a group in the game.
Yes, like I said my thief is 44th circle, he's not quite reached the point where his hindrance / ability + buffs can get him off the perception scale which I think it skewed atm. But that's ok he's still a newbie in my eyes. He has more to work for until he can do what he has the potential for.
<Skewed how? I think the difference I see from my buffs has only increased - it's pretty reasonable for another PC my main is hunting with to have +/-200 more ranks than I do in a given skill. That's a rather large training investment, BUT, buffs within SoI at this range can also bring that differential within line. Indeed, that's somewhat how it works at all circles, scaled appropriately, but it isn't until ~80th that most guilds are really able to make use of ALL their abilities, give or take. Which is, of course, not to say fun PvP can't happen at lower ranks - you'll have remember of course, that you were the one who levied that particular straw man.
I think fun pvp does happen at lower ranks, when folks CAN'T take full advantage of their guild buffs. That was my point, if every guild can take advantage of their full buffs then its almost like it equals out, but before that's possible folks can only pick and choose. Why I said that lower level pvp is often more fun and interesting. Honestly I don't know why I keep beating this dead horse, but at lower ranks pvp is more fun, why I keep going back to it, and I do it a lot. Sure high level PVP can be fun to, but it seems that a lot of people don't reach that point and the people that are at that point would more likely train than pvp. so...
I'd just like to add that PVP in the 20-50 range can be some of the most fun pvp around, I just didn't mention that because it takes a good group of people to make it happen, and currently not counting the f2p newb wars, there's not usually that big of a group in the game.
>150th+ PvP isn't the pinnacle of PvP in DR, it's actually the least fun IMO with 70-130 being the best and under 30 being second. IMO noob PvP takes more player skill than any other range.
^
It's been my experience that people enjoy watching those "noob" fights more as well. You're expected to win when you're a high skill HLC, so nobody really cares when you do. I suspect that's why a lot of frequent HLC PvPers stopped participating after 3.0 hit. Before then, it wasn't unusual to see someone significantly less skilled than his opponent win, which made it fun to watch however unfair.
>1) Most important to me is the issue that skill-gain TDP is a runaway system, with values that were decided 19 years ago. For a community that by and large bemoans homogenization, it is surprisingly that there is so little complaint about the situation where everyone is hitting 100+ stats in the high end with limited to irrelevant variation.
I think it's because, with the exception of debilitation contests, you "feel" skills more than stats beyond a certain point. I can train agility or reflex from 50 to 70 in one go and experience little, if any, perceivable difference. Some people say they can, but I'm not one of 'em. 700 ranks in a weapon, however, feels way different than 600 ranks and will get me to a new hunting ground. Adding 50 points of agility won't make me suddenly skin wyverns consistently with 600 ranks, but add another hundred or so ranks and I'm seeing some claws. We train stats because we know they do stuff, but there's less emotion behind it than training skills once you're swinging a weapon with min RT and no longer burdened.
Also, the stat issue only really exists in the HLC range. Even then, I think it only really matters to people who care about PvP because of SvS, and that's a relatively small portion of DR's player base. In my experience, creatures are pretty forgiving on SvS contests.
^
It's been my experience that people enjoy watching those "noob" fights more as well. You're expected to win when you're a high skill HLC, so nobody really cares when you do. I suspect that's why a lot of frequent HLC PvPers stopped participating after 3.0 hit. Before then, it wasn't unusual to see someone significantly less skilled than his opponent win, which made it fun to watch however unfair.
>1) Most important to me is the issue that skill-gain TDP is a runaway system, with values that were decided 19 years ago. For a community that by and large bemoans homogenization, it is surprisingly that there is so little complaint about the situation where everyone is hitting 100+ stats in the high end with limited to irrelevant variation.
I think it's because, with the exception of debilitation contests, you "feel" skills more than stats beyond a certain point. I can train agility or reflex from 50 to 70 in one go and experience little, if any, perceivable difference. Some people say they can, but I'm not one of 'em. 700 ranks in a weapon, however, feels way different than 600 ranks and will get me to a new hunting ground. Adding 50 points of agility won't make me suddenly skin wyverns consistently with 600 ranks, but add another hundred or so ranks and I'm seeing some claws. We train stats because we know they do stuff, but there's less emotion behind it than training skills once you're swinging a weapon with min RT and no longer burdened.
Also, the stat issue only really exists in the HLC range. Even then, I think it only really matters to people who care about PvP because of SvS, and that's a relatively small portion of DR's player base. In my experience, creatures are pretty forgiving on SvS contests.
>It's been my experience that people enjoy watching those "noob" fights more as well. You're expected to win when you're a high skill HLC, so nobody really cares when you do. I suspect that's why a lot of frequent HLC PvPers stopped participating after 3.0 hit. Before then, it wasn't unusual to see someone significantly less skilled than his opponent win, which made it fun to watch however unfair.
Which, again, is why pulling back some of the massive skill differential that exists between players would be a good thing, not a bad thing. There are many ways to try and do this.
I think what you describe in your last sentence, however, was typically a result of a highly unbalanced game system. In pre-3.0, I distinctly remember my Moon Mage, barely able to survive in gryphons, killing a Barbarian that was hunting in the manor, because I MB'd and then PD'd him to death. In today's system, my Moon Mage probably couldn't have landed MB or PD on a character with such a skill disparity. It's a shame that the game is currently more balanced than it's ever been, and the player base is operating under the largest skill disparities ever seen.
Also,
>Also, the stat issue only really exists in the HLC range. Even then, I think it only really matters to people who care about PvP because of SvS, and that's a relatively small portion of DR's player base. In my experience, creatures are pretty forgiving on SvS contests.
Well, yes - SvS is a significant component of PvP, and why people train wide. If you don't care about interacting with players, you are perfectly entitled to play that way, but I don't think you'll get much sympathy from many players, and, I don't think you should be penalized for your choice to not train a specific way. Since we're talking about ways to eliminate homogenization of characters and reduce cookie cutter builds, not forcing players to 'all train a bunch of weapons and a bunch of armors for maximum TDPs' is a great place to start.
>Also, the stat issue only really exists in the HLC range. Even then, I think it only really matters to people who care about PvP because of SvS, and that's a relatively small portion of DR's player base. In my experience, creatures are pretty forgiving on SvS contests.
Well, yes - SvS is a significant component of PvP, and why people train wide. If you don't care about interacting with players, you are perfectly entitled to play that way, but I don't think you'll get much sympathy from many players, and, I don't think you should be penalized for your choice to not train a specific way. Since we're talking about ways to eliminate homogenization of characters and reduce cookie cutter builds, not forcing players to 'all train a bunch of weapons and a bunch of armors for maximum TDPs' is a great place to start.
Playtime and Constant Training - The problems I have with throttling 24/7 trainers are twofold. First, the Gemstone system sounds nice, but the fact is that some people just want to train all the time, and that's what they're going to do. Forcing them to leave combat isn't going to make them roleplay more. Instead, it will just make the game less enjoyable. People hate being idle at something they're trying to do. Ever know someone that will insist on driving the “back way” when there's traffic, even if it's longer and even if it will get them there more slowly? At least they're moving.
People who have time and enjoy the game are sometimes going to train all the time. That's not easily fixable and we wouldn't want to see a game that resrictive. Furthermore, there will always be haves and have-nots with regard to scripting skill. Again, there's nothing you can do about that unless we're going to ban scripting entirely, which I think nearly nobody wants. No amount of QoL changes you put in can make something easier for the have-nots than the haves, when it comes to scripting.
So, what's our real problem that we can solve? The gap between people who train all the time and people who don't. But, again, the only way to close that gap is to, IMO, give out various forms of easier experience to the short-time trainers. One way to do this might be an RPA-like system for people who don't play as often. Another way would be to have either this sytem or the RPA system actually hand out free bits rather than letting you absorb faster. The big thing we need to be careful with is stomping all over the people who do want to train all the time. Because I very firmly believe there's nothing wrong with that.
Broad Training – Personally, I kind of like this and don't think there's a problem. It doesn't really hurt you in PvE not to, and everything else is voluntary. People who put extra effort into training for the TDP's OUGHT to, IMO, be rewarded for it. It gives me incentive to try out things I otherwise would not have.
Throttling – I'm actually really not in favor of this, for a very simple reason – there are already very HLC's out there, and I don't have one. But I want to. I want to train hard and catch up to some people. If we start throttling constant training, you're going to create a perma-royalty of the existing HLC's, unless a formula is made to strip ranks from existing HLC's for the constant training they would have done... which I think is a really horrible idea for several reasons.
They played the game the way it was made. If you look at the census, something like half the players are 100+. The only thing throttling does is freeze that in place and closes the door on newer characters. DR already has probably the longest training time of any MMO anyway, as has been said before.
TDP Formulas – I wouldn't mind a change here, if the numbers are just too high. Personally, though, I think it's fine that everyone can get to all 100's eventually, and then specialize from there. If the numbers just need to go down that's fine, but don't clip us too hard. As a WM, I already feel the burn of hard choices for spell slots.
- Saragos
People who have time and enjoy the game are sometimes going to train all the time. That's not easily fixable and we wouldn't want to see a game that resrictive. Furthermore, there will always be haves and have-nots with regard to scripting skill. Again, there's nothing you can do about that unless we're going to ban scripting entirely, which I think nearly nobody wants. No amount of QoL changes you put in can make something easier for the have-nots than the haves, when it comes to scripting.
So, what's our real problem that we can solve? The gap between people who train all the time and people who don't. But, again, the only way to close that gap is to, IMO, give out various forms of easier experience to the short-time trainers. One way to do this might be an RPA-like system for people who don't play as often. Another way would be to have either this sytem or the RPA system actually hand out free bits rather than letting you absorb faster. The big thing we need to be careful with is stomping all over the people who do want to train all the time. Because I very firmly believe there's nothing wrong with that.
Broad Training – Personally, I kind of like this and don't think there's a problem. It doesn't really hurt you in PvE not to, and everything else is voluntary. People who put extra effort into training for the TDP's OUGHT to, IMO, be rewarded for it. It gives me incentive to try out things I otherwise would not have.
Throttling – I'm actually really not in favor of this, for a very simple reason – there are already very HLC's out there, and I don't have one. But I want to. I want to train hard and catch up to some people. If we start throttling constant training, you're going to create a perma-royalty of the existing HLC's, unless a formula is made to strip ranks from existing HLC's for the constant training they would have done... which I think is a really horrible idea for several reasons.
They played the game the way it was made. If you look at the census, something like half the players are 100+. The only thing throttling does is freeze that in place and closes the door on newer characters. DR already has probably the longest training time of any MMO anyway, as has been said before.
TDP Formulas – I wouldn't mind a change here, if the numbers are just too high. Personally, though, I think it's fine that everyone can get to all 100's eventually, and then specialize from there. If the numbers just need to go down that's fine, but don't clip us too hard. As a WM, I already feel the burn of hard choices for spell slots.
- Saragos
>>I don't see how it's not presently super homogenized by virtue of there being a single objectively best way to train your character but maybe I'm missing something?
I don't know if do everything and have all stats high is necessarily the objectively best option as much as the path you eventually end up hitting by the sheer fact that you might get bored doing the other things.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
I don't know if do everything and have all stats high is necessarily the objectively best option as much as the path you eventually end up hitting by the sheer fact that you might get bored doing the other things.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
<< Shooting from the hip, but probably by applying throttles to people training for an amount of hours it is physically impossible to be ATK for.
This is the only real way to fight against 24/7 botting or at least slow it down a little bit. I don't want to give anyone any ideas but there are plenty of ways to work around any script checks you could ever come up with or the checks will have to be so obscure that even people ATK don't know what to do with them (which they kind of are already).
<< People who put extra effort into training for the TDP's OUGHT to, IMO, be rewarded for it.
This is true but i think the circling rewards have to start keeping up. It has always been so that you could opt for the broad range skill grind or you could rather work towards circling. So far circling has never paid off very well (i mean ~200 TDPs per circle, what is that) but at 150 the rewards stops entirely. That means there is no incentive to circle at all. Before you say -- but they said no TDPs beyond 150 -- all caps have been raised several times throughout the history of DR and i don't see circling being an exception to that now.
The caps for all TDPs involved (ranks, circles, stats) need to line up in a better way. Currently ranks just keep on going but everything else is lagging behind. For an evergrowing game, i think we could use a better scalable model up to infinity. Either that, or maybe do a numbers squish at some point.
I take it from the 19 year old system reference that TDPs are just waiting to be rebalanced to better synergize with all the caps we have and that would be the right place to consider the circling aspect of it as well.
This is the only real way to fight against 24/7 botting or at least slow it down a little bit. I don't want to give anyone any ideas but there are plenty of ways to work around any script checks you could ever come up with or the checks will have to be so obscure that even people ATK don't know what to do with them (which they kind of are already).
<< People who put extra effort into training for the TDP's OUGHT to, IMO, be rewarded for it.
This is true but i think the circling rewards have to start keeping up. It has always been so that you could opt for the broad range skill grind or you could rather work towards circling. So far circling has never paid off very well (i mean ~200 TDPs per circle, what is that) but at 150 the rewards stops entirely. That means there is no incentive to circle at all. Before you say -- but they said no TDPs beyond 150 -- all caps have been raised several times throughout the history of DR and i don't see circling being an exception to that now.
The caps for all TDPs involved (ranks, circles, stats) need to line up in a better way. Currently ranks just keep on going but everything else is lagging behind. For an evergrowing game, i think we could use a better scalable model up to infinity. Either that, or maybe do a numbers squish at some point.
I take it from the 19 year old system reference that TDPs are just waiting to be rebalanced to better synergize with all the caps we have and that would be the right place to consider the circling aspect of it as well.
>Part of me wonders what s DR in which you have 6 stats and a max of 500 points between them would play like.
I really like this idea. It'd also be cool if there were more stat contests to make stat choices harder, too; stuff like more debilitating maneuvers that are stat contests modified by tactics skill. Disablers are fun. They spice up combat and make stats more interesting.
Charisma could be the secondary defense stat for any stat maneuvers... Dodge by personality.
I really like this idea. It'd also be cool if there were more stat contests to make stat choices harder, too; stuff like more debilitating maneuvers that are stat contests modified by tactics skill. Disablers are fun. They spice up combat and make stats more interesting.
Charisma could be the secondary defense stat for any stat maneuvers... Dodge by personality.
I recently stopped circling because I don't enjoy thievery. Instead I focus on training so that I can get tdps to compensate, and I can still progress on my own. I LOVE that DR gives me that functionality. Is it a bit much that I can make as many TDPs in three-four days that I could getting a circle? Maybe? But that seems fair to me. I need one skill to circle for a long time. If I worked stealing, as awful as it is, it would take just as long to circle. Now, if I worked pretty much any other normal skill... I could circle every two days easily. My point isn't to gripe about stealing. Everyone knows it's awful. The point was to show how TDP gain matches circl e tdps.
The next issue I have, is that any time there's a "fix" put in place like this, the people in the mid ranges suffer. It's like running up an escalator. When people do things that are unintended and you roll out a fix, no one takes those ranks back from those people. You just let them sit ahead of everyone else, and then everyone else has to do whatever.
A perfect example is when Jack was abusing the bug with his shadowlings with Tenion to have all of his characters hide around them. No one took his exp. You just turned the learning off from shadowlings. That dude had 500+ hiding back when he had only JUST had Galain hit 100th. Not bad for a tert right? He was up there with the top thieves IG.
When people ran around getting insane tdps from HUM, you didn't take those tdps. You just made hum not work. Cool?
When HUNT taught buttloads of stalking, scouting, and perc... you didn't take the stalking tdps. Nope, they kept them. AND as an added bonus it rolled into the hiding skill to make STEALTH when the skills combined. And while they might not have double dipped on the TDPs, they got the bonus pools from that. I still don't think it's correct how much perc exp it awards, but whatever.
There are several examples, and you will either agree or disagree. But I pay a LOT of money to play this silly text based game, and there's my opinion on the matter. I don't envy your position, having to make the hard choices like that.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
The next issue I have, is that any time there's a "fix" put in place like this, the people in the mid ranges suffer. It's like running up an escalator. When people do things that are unintended and you roll out a fix, no one takes those ranks back from those people. You just let them sit ahead of everyone else, and then everyone else has to do whatever.
A perfect example is when Jack was abusing the bug with his shadowlings with Tenion to have all of his characters hide around them. No one took his exp. You just turned the learning off from shadowlings. That dude had 500+ hiding back when he had only JUST had Galain hit 100th. Not bad for a tert right? He was up there with the top thieves IG.
When people ran around getting insane tdps from HUM, you didn't take those tdps. You just made hum not work. Cool?
When HUNT taught buttloads of stalking, scouting, and perc... you didn't take the stalking tdps. Nope, they kept them. AND as an added bonus it rolled into the hiding skill to make STEALTH when the skills combined. And while they might not have double dipped on the TDPs, they got the bonus pools from that. I still don't think it's correct how much perc exp it awards, but whatever.
There are several examples, and you will either agree or disagree. But I pay a LOT of money to play this silly text based game, and there's my opinion on the matter. I don't envy your position, having to make the hard choices like that.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
>>When HUNT taught buttloads of stalking, scouting, and perc... you didn't take the stalking tdps. Nope, they kept them. AND as an added bonus it rolled into the hiding skill to make STEALTH when the skills combined.
It was awhile ago and I had more hiding anyway, but I thought the formula for this specific one didn't just turn 100 stalking and 0 hiding into 100 stealth.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
It was awhile ago and I had more hiding anyway, but I thought the formula for this specific one didn't just turn 100 stalking and 0 hiding into 100 stealth.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
>>I really like this idea. It'd also be cool if there were more stat contests to make stat choices harder, too; stuff like more debilitating maneuvers that are stat contests modified by tactics skill. Disablers are fun. They spice up combat and make stats more interesting.<<
It would be different, for sure.
I'm not personally a huge fan of stat contests. It doesn't matter right now if I have 600 or 1600 debilitation for many of the things I cast, and IMO that's sort of lame.
A lot of basic pieces of DR could use some reconsideration, so many years down the line. New exp and other QOL changes have made it easier to write scripts that keep you learning well but the optimal strategy is still essentially the same as it was - work out a routine that trains the most skills possible without neglecting the skills you most care about, then run with that as long as you can to rack up the ranks. IMO the game rewards grinding for long periods too much verus intense, focused playing to the detriment of the game.
I didn't always have that POV. When I was younger I was very competitive and wanted to get ahead. I looked at it as "putting in the hard work." Now that I'm older I think that was kind of dumb and that I missed a lot on the way up.
I enjoy training, writing scripts, and watching the numbers go up. But I realize that when I'm training the most and focusing on those things I'm also the most checked out of DR as a game. Once everything is set up and running smooth and doesn't need much tweaking it's hard to be engaged even while you're paying attention, at least in my experience. Things happen around you, or nearish, and you just have no idea because they don't intrude on your training. I think a lot of people play that way, and don't realize they're not enjoying themselves with DR so much as letting DR do its thing while entertaining themselves with something else while they're nominally paying attention. Maybe it's worth exploring to see whether there are ways to break this dynamic without people feeling like they can't make progress - or have to script even more to make up for getting less exp.
I'd like the option to front-load my exp then go do other things moreso than the current system allows. Like maybe train for an hour, go do other things for three or four hours while I drain out.
Just some thoughts.
Mazrian
It would be different, for sure.
I'm not personally a huge fan of stat contests. It doesn't matter right now if I have 600 or 1600 debilitation for many of the things I cast, and IMO that's sort of lame.
A lot of basic pieces of DR could use some reconsideration, so many years down the line. New exp and other QOL changes have made it easier to write scripts that keep you learning well but the optimal strategy is still essentially the same as it was - work out a routine that trains the most skills possible without neglecting the skills you most care about, then run with that as long as you can to rack up the ranks. IMO the game rewards grinding for long periods too much verus intense, focused playing to the detriment of the game.
I didn't always have that POV. When I was younger I was very competitive and wanted to get ahead. I looked at it as "putting in the hard work." Now that I'm older I think that was kind of dumb and that I missed a lot on the way up.
I enjoy training, writing scripts, and watching the numbers go up. But I realize that when I'm training the most and focusing on those things I'm also the most checked out of DR as a game. Once everything is set up and running smooth and doesn't need much tweaking it's hard to be engaged even while you're paying attention, at least in my experience. Things happen around you, or nearish, and you just have no idea because they don't intrude on your training. I think a lot of people play that way, and don't realize they're not enjoying themselves with DR so much as letting DR do its thing while entertaining themselves with something else while they're nominally paying attention. Maybe it's worth exploring to see whether there are ways to break this dynamic without people feeling like they can't make progress - or have to script even more to make up for getting less exp.
I'd like the option to front-load my exp then go do other things moreso than the current system allows. Like maybe train for an hour, go do other things for three or four hours while I drain out.
Just some thoughts.
Mazrian
>> It was awhile ago and I had more hiding anyway, but I thought the formula for this specific one didn't just turn 100 stalking and 0 hiding into 100 stealth.
I was wrong in my initial post, but even after a buddy pointed it out to me, it's the same basic premise.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
I was wrong in my initial post, but even after a buddy pointed it out to me, it's the same basic premise.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
>I'm not personally a huge fan of stat contests. It doesn't matter right now if I have 600 or 1600 debilitation for many of the things I cast, and IMO that's sort of lame.
Just touching on this part. I originally thought the same thing, but as long as mana plays a role in the debilitation it will matter. To your point, you can cap most simple debilitations early. However, mana (debilitation skill) still affects success, strength, duration and, in some cases, incidental spell effects of all spells up to their cap. That said, I think there should be more, difficult (read: esoteric), spell debilitations exclusive to magic primary guilds that do cool things.
Alternatively or additionally, weaving additional debilitation effects through symbioses should be a thing. I like the symbiosis system a lot, but it has little practical application right now outside training magic. It takes about over 800 debilitation ranks, a non-trivial amount, to cap a basic spell cast with symbiosis. It should do something more special than boost skinning or make the spell harder to cast. It'd be cool to be able to do things like weave electric damage amplification into an ice patch or add a moderate stun to tingle through symbiosis or add a dispel to either, for instance. You can even add difficulty tiers to the symbioses so the most desirable effects make the spell even harder than a skinning symbiosis might make it.
Fact is you can't really eliminate SvS with the current debilitation system. Magic primary and secondary guilds would be the only ones able to consistently land and defend against debilitations in PvP. Given how necessary disablers are in this iteration of the game, that's not a good change. I say embrace it and expand it. If there were non-magic forms of debilitation, then maybe SvS could be eliminated from the equation, but then we circle back to stats not feeling like they do a whole lot outside SvS once you have no burden, min attack RT, etc. It also seems like more efficient dev time since the systems are in place already and current.
Just touching on this part. I originally thought the same thing, but as long as mana plays a role in the debilitation it will matter. To your point, you can cap most simple debilitations early. However, mana (debilitation skill) still affects success, strength, duration and, in some cases, incidental spell effects of all spells up to their cap. That said, I think there should be more, difficult (read: esoteric), spell debilitations exclusive to magic primary guilds that do cool things.
Alternatively or additionally, weaving additional debilitation effects through symbioses should be a thing. I like the symbiosis system a lot, but it has little practical application right now outside training magic. It takes about over 800 debilitation ranks, a non-trivial amount, to cap a basic spell cast with symbiosis. It should do something more special than boost skinning or make the spell harder to cast. It'd be cool to be able to do things like weave electric damage amplification into an ice patch or add a moderate stun to tingle through symbiosis or add a dispel to either, for instance. You can even add difficulty tiers to the symbioses so the most desirable effects make the spell even harder than a skinning symbiosis might make it.
Fact is you can't really eliminate SvS with the current debilitation system. Magic primary and secondary guilds would be the only ones able to consistently land and defend against debilitations in PvP. Given how necessary disablers are in this iteration of the game, that's not a good change. I say embrace it and expand it. If there were non-magic forms of debilitation, then maybe SvS could be eliminated from the equation, but then we circle back to stats not feeling like they do a whole lot outside SvS once you have no burden, min attack RT, etc. It also seems like more efficient dev time since the systems are in place already and current.
I'd honestly prefer if we stopped trying to find a way to slow down learning through the system, and put our focus into having more happen in the game that draws people away from the endless scripting of skills.
I'm sure others do as I do... log in, see nothing at all is happening, so decide to train skills.... 5 hours later, still nothing happening, keep training skills...
Until we fix the issue that there is very little happening in the game, we will constantly be fixing the issue that people are reaching caps in stats and skills
>>I'm sure others do as I do... log in, see nothing at all is happening, so decide to train skills.... 5 hours later, still nothing happening, keep training skills...
It's a dynamic that feeds on itself, or that's what I noticed happening to me.
You perceive nothing's happening, so you go off to train. You're training, not paying much attention after a little while, so you're not engaged with anything. You're not engaged with anything, so it seems like nothing's happening. And since you never end up engaging much something has to literally bust in and slap you to get your attention.
Mazrian
It's a dynamic that feeds on itself, or that's what I noticed happening to me.
You perceive nothing's happening, so you go off to train. You're training, not paying much attention after a little while, so you're not engaged with anything. You're not engaged with anything, so it seems like nothing's happening. And since you never end up engaging much something has to literally bust in and slap you to get your attention.
Mazrian
I actually agree with there Marzian, I believe that to be totally correct. I also thing the years of downtime around focus into big in game stories, while we developed 3.0 and 3.1, has led people into habit now... years of logging in to train skills, breeds number watching IMO
For what its worth, I actually like the new systems, but I'd hate for us to go through it all again so soon
Before we jump on there 'there is nothing to do in DR' subject, that belongs in Social Side in the General Discussion folder and possibly the OOC conflicts folder.
TL;DR - Tangents need their own subject header separate from this subject that's long time done.
Annwyl
Message Board Supervisor
If you've questions or comments, take it to e-mail by writing me at DR-Annwyl@play.net.
I agree with Elec 100%. Also, TDPs are "capped" right now at 100. The post 100 is where people differentiate themselves. All capping total stats would do is make it so that everyone had base "some number" and differentiated themselves from that baseline. It's the same as what happens now.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
Because of the amount of time it takes to get all your stats to 100, and training paradigm it requires, it seems like a bad idea to have the 'point of differentiation' be 'after 5+ years of serious min-max training' instead of 'after a couple years of reasonable play fitting to your guild'.
It makes little sense that a Moon Mage who trained a dozen weapons should have more Wisdom/Int. It makes even less sense to bemoan the state of rank differentials in the post 150th skill range, and proffer solutions that are based around INCREASING that skill differential.
If you want to see more heterogeneity of player builds, you should support a system where people don't have to train every thing to reach a super long term goal of 100 in all stats and then some differentiation from that point after. You should support a system that places a greater emphasis on player choice and allows flexibility therein, that doesn't demand everyone train the same way, and where stat allocation matters from day one.
It makes little sense that a Moon Mage who trained a dozen weapons should have more Wisdom/Int. It makes even less sense to bemoan the state of rank differentials in the post 150th skill range, and proffer solutions that are based around INCREASING that skill differential.
If you want to see more heterogeneity of player builds, you should support a system where people don't have to train every thing to reach a super long term goal of 100 in all stats and then some differentiation from that point after. You should support a system that places a greater emphasis on player choice and allows flexibility therein, that doesn't demand everyone train the same way, and where stat allocation matters from day one.
I personally would love a system that would only reward tdps to your top 3ish skills in each skill set..
like for weapons... it would reward like it currently does for up to 3 weapons, and parry. past that, any other weapon wouldn't grant tdps unless they passed one of your main 3. melee, missile, etc masteries wouldn't give tdps at all.
for magic... again.. top 3 whatever you choose to pursue, and PM wouldn't give tdps.
etc. limit the amount of skills that can generate tdps. maybe even boost the tdp gain depending upon what 'average' you want people to be at.. then people can focus on things they enjoy without some feeling that they have to train everything or suffer on tdps (this really sucks for some of skill sets... for tert anything it sucks.. especially skill sets like weapons that have a lot of options.. there are a ton of tdps that it would take a billion years to get.. but if you could focus instead on just 3.. it balances it out). They will still be able to train skills beyond that if they want to be well rounded, but it wouldn't be as mandatory.
like for weapons... it would reward like it currently does for up to 3 weapons, and parry. past that, any other weapon wouldn't grant tdps unless they passed one of your main 3. melee, missile, etc masteries wouldn't give tdps at all.
for magic... again.. top 3 whatever you choose to pursue, and PM wouldn't give tdps.
etc. limit the amount of skills that can generate tdps. maybe even boost the tdp gain depending upon what 'average' you want people to be at.. then people can focus on things they enjoy without some feeling that they have to train everything or suffer on tdps (this really sucks for some of skill sets... for tert anything it sucks.. especially skill sets like weapons that have a lot of options.. there are a ton of tdps that it would take a billion years to get.. but if you could focus instead on just 3.. it balances it out). They will still be able to train skills beyond that if they want to be well rounded, but it wouldn't be as mandatory.
<< Is it a bit much that I can make as many TDPs in three-four days that I could getting a circle? Maybe? But that seems fair to me.
I agree but lets not neglect circling completely, is all i'm saying. I wouldn't want TDPs from ranks to be reduced in any way at all because the viability to function without conventional circling is one of those things that make this game great. Never hurts to have more options.
I think of circling as one of those devices that alleviate frustration coming from the need to train all skills just because of TDPs. It leaves you with the option to make up for the difference by training those other skills that you wouldn't otherwise train and progress in the guild for those TDPs. I don't know if it all adds up but this is how i've always justified circling.
There should be room for changes that would fix high end caps so that they make more sense and preserve the current progression models at the same time. Regretfully, i don't have any specific ideas to offer and i feel like anything i have to say would only come out as biased to my situation. It's all up to the DR developing masterminds to figure this out and on a subtle side note before you make any changes, you should know that i too am a yelp reviewer, so i only expect premium ranks served on my plate. :)
I agree but lets not neglect circling completely, is all i'm saying. I wouldn't want TDPs from ranks to be reduced in any way at all because the viability to function without conventional circling is one of those things that make this game great. Never hurts to have more options.
I think of circling as one of those devices that alleviate frustration coming from the need to train all skills just because of TDPs. It leaves you with the option to make up for the difference by training those other skills that you wouldn't otherwise train and progress in the guild for those TDPs. I don't know if it all adds up but this is how i've always justified circling.
There should be room for changes that would fix high end caps so that they make more sense and preserve the current progression models at the same time. Regretfully, i don't have any specific ideas to offer and i feel like anything i have to say would only come out as biased to my situation. It's all up to the DR developing masterminds to figure this out and on a subtle side note before you make any changes, you should know that i too am a yelp reviewer, so i only expect premium ranks served on my plate. :)
I'm all in favour in keeping the system as it is, partly for selfish reasons, but I like that the more you do the more you gain.
My main for example, lives in Therengia and serves in Therengia, for that reason I don't leave the area for training... What this means is, I passed the cap a long time ago on what I could train there, so I picked up extra weapons, and another armor.... I like that DR had the flexibility to allow for this.
If the system was TDPs just for the top 3 skills in each category, you would soon find that everyone trained just three skills in each category, and trained them very hard, leading them to reach rank caps, and more system development being needed to raise that cap.
>...and more system development being needed to raise that cap.
Or we could stop expecting this game to be a perpetual number go bigger simulator and explore other things to do once we reach the cap? I think DRs biggest problems right now are the extrodinarily high cap which spreads the character population over such a ridiculous ranges. The solution isn't to just keep raising the caps.
<<Or we could stop expecting this game to be a perpetual number go bigger simulator and explore other things to do once we reach the cap? I think DRs biggest problems right now are the extrodinarily high cap which spreads the character population over such a ridiculous ranges.
This is the only reason this game has the longevity it has had in my opinion. If the cap wasn't so high then I don't think any of us would even be here to be discussing this. Coming up on 20 years is unheard of in any MMO with an end-game.
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This is the only reason this game has the longevity it has had in my opinion. If the cap wasn't so high then I don't think any of us would even be here to be discussing this. Coming up on 20 years is unheard of in any MMO with an end-game.
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>This is the only reason this game has the longevity it has had in my opinion. If the cap wasn't so high then I don't think any of us would even be here to be discussing this. Coming up on 20 years is unheard of in any MMO with an end-game.
I wouldn't say it has that much of an impact on players sticking around. People who take DR breaks, which is pretty much everyone, usually don't cite "I want to get my small edged skill up to 500" as the motivation for returning. Also, the people who have hit 200th circle or 1750 in skills would've all left. To me, for people who care about numbers, it almost seems as if it's more momentum that keeps them playing passed whatever arbitrary number we want to call HLC.
I think "end game" has always been a problem area and would benefit from a lower cap. The game has always played in unintended ways the closer you get to whatever end game is. I'd rather see more balance at HLC and stuff like current creatures redesigned than new creatures made because 5 people can't train stealth on current creatures or whatever. There should be other things that make players want to keep playing passed any cap. Crafting is one of those things. I think the game would benefit from more character customization beyond skill/stat points, like the ability to join other guild-like organizations not restricted by guild, like sects that are not guild-specific, that open up unique perks with advancement within the org. There are other things like quests and boss creature battles, etc. that could easily spice things up passed a lower level cap.
I wouldn't say it has that much of an impact on players sticking around. People who take DR breaks, which is pretty much everyone, usually don't cite "I want to get my small edged skill up to 500" as the motivation for returning. Also, the people who have hit 200th circle or 1750 in skills would've all left. To me, for people who care about numbers, it almost seems as if it's more momentum that keeps them playing passed whatever arbitrary number we want to call HLC.
I think "end game" has always been a problem area and would benefit from a lower cap. The game has always played in unintended ways the closer you get to whatever end game is. I'd rather see more balance at HLC and stuff like current creatures redesigned than new creatures made because 5 people can't train stealth on current creatures or whatever. There should be other things that make players want to keep playing passed any cap. Crafting is one of those things. I think the game would benefit from more character customization beyond skill/stat points, like the ability to join other guild-like organizations not restricted by guild, like sects that are not guild-specific, that open up unique perks with advancement within the org. There are other things like quests and boss creature battles, etc. that could easily spice things up passed a lower level cap.
<<I wouldn't say it has that much of an impact on players sticking around.
You're underestimating the effect that not being at your character's advancement limit has on a person's interest in a game. If there was a definable end-game then there would have to be something else to replace the sense that there's something more that you could do with your character. Games with end-games do this by adding content like raids, new zones, new classes and yes, even periodically increasing level caps. Heck, even DR has raised level caps for the same reason. Too many people were at the previous technical definition of end-game and there was var less incentive for them to stick around compared to games with proper end-games. The problem with the end-game model in DR is that new content has to be constantly added in order to keep feeding interest. And we all know how quickly the DR development model works at adding new content. This is not a diss against GM productivity or anything, but just an illustration as why an end-game model would not work for DR. If it wasn't for the feeling of always being able to improve your character that exists because of the incredibly high caps there would a very large drop in interest once people reached any reasonably attainable cap.
<<People who take DR breaks, which is pretty much everyone, usually don't cite "I want to get my small edged skill up to 500" as the motivation for returning.
Correct. It's nostalgia that brings them back. To a game that still exists because of the open-endedness.
<<Also, the people who have hit 200th circle or 1750 in skills would've all left.
They pretty much have. I haven't seen Nilassa either in game or on the forums since she hit 200th and 1750 in Arcana, for example.
<<To me, for people who care about numbers, it almost seems as if it's more momentum that keeps them playing passed whatever arbitrary number we want to call HLC.
To be clear I'm not talking about explicitly caring about numbers, I'm talking about the sense that people have that there's a reason to keep playing a character for 20 years. You'll never be able to convince me that this many people would still be playing after 20 years for the RP or the sake of experiencing DR if the cap on skills was say 500 or the circle cap was still 100.
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You're underestimating the effect that not being at your character's advancement limit has on a person's interest in a game. If there was a definable end-game then there would have to be something else to replace the sense that there's something more that you could do with your character. Games with end-games do this by adding content like raids, new zones, new classes and yes, even periodically increasing level caps. Heck, even DR has raised level caps for the same reason. Too many people were at the previous technical definition of end-game and there was var less incentive for them to stick around compared to games with proper end-games. The problem with the end-game model in DR is that new content has to be constantly added in order to keep feeding interest. And we all know how quickly the DR development model works at adding new content. This is not a diss against GM productivity or anything, but just an illustration as why an end-game model would not work for DR. If it wasn't for the feeling of always being able to improve your character that exists because of the incredibly high caps there would a very large drop in interest once people reached any reasonably attainable cap.
<<People who take DR breaks, which is pretty much everyone, usually don't cite "I want to get my small edged skill up to 500" as the motivation for returning.
Correct. It's nostalgia that brings them back. To a game that still exists because of the open-endedness.
<<Also, the people who have hit 200th circle or 1750 in skills would've all left.
They pretty much have. I haven't seen Nilassa either in game or on the forums since she hit 200th and 1750 in Arcana, for example.
<<To me, for people who care about numbers, it almost seems as if it's more momentum that keeps them playing passed whatever arbitrary number we want to call HLC.
To be clear I'm not talking about explicitly caring about numbers, I'm talking about the sense that people have that there's a reason to keep playing a character for 20 years. You'll never be able to convince me that this many people would still be playing after 20 years for the RP or the sake of experiencing DR if the cap on skills was say 500 or the circle cap was still 100.
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Did I say otherwise?
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>>My main for example, lives in Therengia and serves in Therengia, for that reason I don't leave the area for training... What this means is, I passed the cap a long time ago on what I could train there, so I picked up extra weapons, and another armor.... I like that DR had the flexibility to allow for this.
Would still be able to do that. Nothing is saying you couldn't improve your character that way, and by removing tdp gain from all weapons, it by no means limits the experience gained in those weapons if your goal is to be extremely well rounded. Eventually you will stop gaining tdps either which way.
>>If the system was TDPs just for the top 3 skills in each category, you would soon find that everyone trained just three skills in each category, and trained them very hard, leading them to reach rank caps, and more system development being needed to raise that cap.
And there is nothing wrong with training just 3 skills. It would mean you weren't forced, as you are now, to train everything. You could then just train the weapons that actually fit your RP. (which would also benefit racial choices where weight makes some of the heavier weapons a pain)
As for more developement, it would be nice if there were more areas to train in, and by all means it might encourage more development. But I think what would actually happen, is that people might not spend as much time hunting and might try more other areas of experience, like spending more time crafting, since if the GMs did it right, they could easily maintain the same level of tdp gain (if they want it to remain at the level it is now) if you diversify the skill sets you learn.
Frankly as it is now it is biased towards guilds with weapons primary or secondary.. because that is the biggest pool of tdps(18 skills vs 10 at most for the rest, with armor at 6) in the game. (though with 3.0 they definitely worked to spread the love by expanding magic -- which traders still basically get screwed from, and reducing weapons.. but more could still be done).
Would still be able to do that. Nothing is saying you couldn't improve your character that way, and by removing tdp gain from all weapons, it by no means limits the experience gained in those weapons if your goal is to be extremely well rounded. Eventually you will stop gaining tdps either which way.
>>If the system was TDPs just for the top 3 skills in each category, you would soon find that everyone trained just three skills in each category, and trained them very hard, leading them to reach rank caps, and more system development being needed to raise that cap.
And there is nothing wrong with training just 3 skills. It would mean you weren't forced, as you are now, to train everything. You could then just train the weapons that actually fit your RP. (which would also benefit racial choices where weight makes some of the heavier weapons a pain)
As for more developement, it would be nice if there were more areas to train in, and by all means it might encourage more development. But I think what would actually happen, is that people might not spend as much time hunting and might try more other areas of experience, like spending more time crafting, since if the GMs did it right, they could easily maintain the same level of tdp gain (if they want it to remain at the level it is now) if you diversify the skill sets you learn.
Frankly as it is now it is biased towards guilds with weapons primary or secondary.. because that is the biggest pool of tdps(18 skills vs 10 at most for the rest, with armor at 6) in the game. (though with 3.0 they definitely worked to spread the love by expanding magic -- which traders still basically get screwed from, and reducing weapons.. but more could still be done).
So, let me tell you what would happen if you only got TDPs from your top three skills...
Nothing will change aside from slower progression.
RP Heavy will still progress slower.
RP Medium will remain a step ahead.
RP light/no RP will continue to pull ahead.
Focus on introducing/fixing game content that draws people from the grind. That's the way to win here. You are never going to stop the people who grind constantly.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
Nothing will change aside from slower progression.
RP Heavy will still progress slower.
RP Medium will remain a step ahead.
RP light/no RP will continue to pull ahead.
Focus on introducing/fixing game content that draws people from the grind. That's the way to win here. You are never going to stop the people who grind constantly.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
Something would change. People wouldn't have to literally train EVERYTHING to progress. It wouldn't slow anything down. if the GMs adjusted how quickly the top 3 skills gained tdps, it would at the very least remain the same. You would just be able to train what fits your character.
Would it make it perfect? maybe not, its a game with people that play differently, so nothing will ever be 'perfect' but it would have a higher chance of letting people enjoy the game the way they want to -- which is kinda the point of a game like DR. You don't have to be a cookie cutter build. Except currently you kinda do because if you aren't training everything you aren't getting the most out of the game.
saying 'NOTHING WOULD CHANGE' is just fear-mongering. You don't want it to change, and are probably weapons primary or secondary, so it benefits you currently. We get it.
I am also all for adding content and improving systems. But nothing says they can't do both.
And frankly the weapons skillset is broken in terms of tdp gain. 18 skills compared to ~6-10 in the other skillsets? At the very least that needs to be fixed in my opinion.
Would it make it perfect? maybe not, its a game with people that play differently, so nothing will ever be 'perfect' but it would have a higher chance of letting people enjoy the game the way they want to -- which is kinda the point of a game like DR. You don't have to be a cookie cutter build. Except currently you kinda do because if you aren't training everything you aren't getting the most out of the game.
saying 'NOTHING WOULD CHANGE' is just fear-mongering. You don't want it to change, and are probably weapons primary or secondary, so it benefits you currently. We get it.
I am also all for adding content and improving systems. But nothing says they can't do both.
And frankly the weapons skillset is broken in terms of tdp gain. 18 skills compared to ~6-10 in the other skillsets? At the very least that needs to be fixed in my opinion.
Sounds like a pretty big disconnect going on here.
> I passed the cap a long time ago on what I could train there, so I picked up extra weapons, and another armor.... I like that DR had the flexibility to allow for this
> Nothing is saying you couldn't improve your character that way, and by removing tdp gain from all weapons, it by no means limits the experience gained in those weapons if your goal is to be extremely well rounded.
Nowhere did I get that the goal was to be this extemely well rounded thing, but rather that they could do one of three things.
1) Leave the area that they RP in strictly to train (either for circle or primary suite of weapons, both of these apply as they both gain TDPs and advance their character in some way)
2) Stay in the area and not advance in guild (no circle TDPs) and train a few more skills (which also gains some tdps) allowing further character development with regard to stat training.
3) Stay in the area strictly for RP purposes and not advance their characters combat skills/stats.
They chose number 2 which still happens to be a compromise.
> I like that DR had the flexibility to allow for this.
And they are thankful for the freedom to be able to make such a compromise.
> Eventually you will stop gaining tdps either which way.
> lives in Therengia and serves in Therengia
https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Therengia_hunting_ladder
Looks like according to that link that 700 would be close enough to cap for this discussion therefor the statement about stopping gaining either way is false due to the fact that skill cap is over double that.
> It would mean you weren't forced, as you are now, to train everything.
This is only true if you (generic you) feel that you (generic you again) have to keep up with the Jones. So for some people this statement is true and for others it is not.
> I passed the cap a long time ago on what I could train there, so I picked up extra weapons, and another armor.... I like that DR had the flexibility to allow for this
> Nothing is saying you couldn't improve your character that way, and by removing tdp gain from all weapons, it by no means limits the experience gained in those weapons if your goal is to be extremely well rounded.
Nowhere did I get that the goal was to be this extemely well rounded thing, but rather that they could do one of three things.
1) Leave the area that they RP in strictly to train (either for circle or primary suite of weapons, both of these apply as they both gain TDPs and advance their character in some way)
2) Stay in the area and not advance in guild (no circle TDPs) and train a few more skills (which also gains some tdps) allowing further character development with regard to stat training.
3) Stay in the area strictly for RP purposes and not advance their characters combat skills/stats.
They chose number 2 which still happens to be a compromise.
> I like that DR had the flexibility to allow for this.
And they are thankful for the freedom to be able to make such a compromise.
> Eventually you will stop gaining tdps either which way.
> lives in Therengia and serves in Therengia
https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Therengia_hunting_ladder
Looks like according to that link that 700 would be close enough to cap for this discussion therefor the statement about stopping gaining either way is false due to the fact that skill cap is over double that.
> It would mean you weren't forced, as you are now, to train everything.
This is only true if you (generic you) feel that you (generic you again) have to keep up with the Jones. So for some people this statement is true and for others it is not.
