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>>Nowhere did I get that the goal was to be this extemely well rounded thing, but rather that they could do one of three things.
Eventually, even as it currently stands, they will run out of weapons to train. The tdps will dry up if they don't go elsewhere. This isn't hard to grasp. I get what he is doing. It works with the current system. But only because the weapons skillset is basically broken compared to the other 4 skillsets.
If anything, what he is currently doing just highlights a bigger problem with the number of skills in the weapon skillset.
If it was changed to 3 skills, and the number of tdps gained in those 3 skills were raised to reach levels approaching what currently exists, it would level out to the same overall number of tdps he is currently getting.
Like seriously.. this isn't complicated.. say with 18 weapons he can currently get 1000 tdps (totally making up numbers here for the example) if he trains each weapon to 700. If they changed it so that if he only got tdps from 3 skills, and that it would still give that 1000 tdps if he reached 700 in them... there is absolutely zero change in tdp gain, except that now everyone can focus on specific weapons that fit their character instead of learning EVERYTHING. As it is though, weapons give disproportionately more tdps than any other skillset, meaning that if you aren't working 18 weapons, you are penalized. Even more so if you are weapons tert.
>>This is only true if you (generic you) feel that you (generic you again) have to keep up with the Jones. So for some people this statement is true and for others it is not.
This wouldn't be a conversation if people didn't feel that way. Even if he doesn't get tdps, he still is gaining ranks and his character is improving if he trains beyond the 3 skills.
My opinion is that the benefit of training a skill, far and away, should first be the utility of the skill. In cases where that doesn't exist, the skill should be fixed.
If I could wave a magic wand and change DR today, skill-based TDP would be on a 3-skill scheme, 5-skill scheme, or gone entirely. As it stands, movement toward this needs to be very careful and the math involved is not my favorite.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
If I could wave a magic wand and change DR today, skill-based TDP would be on a 3-skill scheme, 5-skill scheme, or gone entirely. As it stands, movement toward this needs to be very careful and the math involved is not my favorite.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
People play (and pay for) DR for a decade because their characters are more to them then an increasing collection of numbers.
That increasing collection of numbers is, however, the core gameplay mechanic and you really can't fill that void with any endgame content that isn't a full core game mechanic itself. People don't play DR for a decade after they've reached the point where they can't play the core of DR anymore. DR would be healthier if it had fewer incentives to train your character out of the game and that's a lot more realistic than creating a second game to age into.
Your search-fu is pig dung!
That increasing collection of numbers is, however, the core gameplay mechanic and you really can't fill that void with any endgame content that isn't a full core game mechanic itself. People don't play DR for a decade after they've reached the point where they can't play the core of DR anymore. DR would be healthier if it had fewer incentives to train your character out of the game and that's a lot more realistic than creating a second game to age into.
Your search-fu is pig dung!
> Like seriously.. this isn't complicated
It actually is very complicated. Look back at when Socharas was trying to do this very thing. What ended up happening was that no matter what he had tried it was way to harsh to some poeple and way to generous to others.
For reference
http://forums.play.net/forums/DragonRealms/Abilities,%20Skills%20and%20Magic/The%20Experience%20System/view/554
> Now, I'll be the first to admit that there are still people that will go into TDP debt from this - Largely the same people that were hurting the most from the original formula. However, for those people, their suffering has been reduced by approximately 45%. The only equations that led to everybody having equal or more TDPs to before caused such incredibly high TDP gains for others that it was really just unconscionable.
> If it was changed to 3 skills, and the number of tdps gained in those 3 skills were raised to reach levels approaching what currently exists, it would level out to the same overall number of tdps he is currently getting.
The last sentence above proves that this logic is wrong. I understand what it is you want, however to date the math has not supported it.
http://forums.play.net/forums/DragonRealms/Abilities,%20Skills%20and%20Magic/The%20Experience%20System/view/640
The point is that this has been viewed before and it proved it be difficult to find a balance with. Does that mean stop searching for an answer, no. Does it help for a player to say that it is not complicated just do x, or to state that someone wants it like this?
I can also tell you what it felt like to have TDP debt. It was not a lot of fun to train less skills to work off a debt before I could train stats on my character again outside of circleing. I was less than 100th circle and had debt that took several months to work off. There are also people that had way more debt than mine. I was around 3000 TDPs in the hole last time.
It actually is very complicated. Look back at when Socharas was trying to do this very thing. What ended up happening was that no matter what he had tried it was way to harsh to some poeple and way to generous to others.
For reference
http://forums.play.net/forums/DragonRealms/Abilities,%20Skills%20and%20Magic/The%20Experience%20System/view/554
> Now, I'll be the first to admit that there are still people that will go into TDP debt from this - Largely the same people that were hurting the most from the original formula. However, for those people, their suffering has been reduced by approximately 45%. The only equations that led to everybody having equal or more TDPs to before caused such incredibly high TDP gains for others that it was really just unconscionable.
> If it was changed to 3 skills, and the number of tdps gained in those 3 skills were raised to reach levels approaching what currently exists, it would level out to the same overall number of tdps he is currently getting.
The last sentence above proves that this logic is wrong. I understand what it is you want, however to date the math has not supported it.
http://forums.play.net/forums/DragonRealms/Abilities,%20Skills%20and%20Magic/The%20Experience%20System/view/640
The point is that this has been viewed before and it proved it be difficult to find a balance with. Does that mean stop searching for an answer, no. Does it help for a player to say that it is not complicated just do x, or to state that someone wants it like this?
I can also tell you what it felt like to have TDP debt. It was not a lot of fun to train less skills to work off a debt before I could train stats on my character again outside of circleing. I was less than 100th circle and had debt that took several months to work off. There are also people that had way more debt than mine. I was around 3000 TDPs in the hole last time.
>>It actually is very complicated.
It would be complicated to implement in a way to make it not hurt the populace that is used to it as it currently stands. But some of that just might have to be done if you want a better system.
The math itself really isn't that hard.
It is the changes to a 20 year old system that is hard... because players in general hate change. they learn a system and how to best take advantage of said system.. and rebel against having to relearn new systems, regardless of how much better they might be for the game overall.
TDP debt sucks... but it is a product of a system that is largely broken. Sometimes you gotta just rip the bandaid off. They can always just reset tdps and stats to racial baseline and let you put your points where you want from there.. then there is no tdp debt.
Frankly it really comes down to people in DR like to play the 'its the end of the world' card.. when it just means they would have to adjust.
>>The last sentence above proves that this logic is wrong. I understand what it is you want, however to date the math has not supported it.
umm no it didn't. 1000 tdps is a 1000 tdps, regardless if it took 18 or 3 skills to earn them. 3 (or 5 works too) skills is just a lot more balanced, especially across skillsets.
It would be complicated to implement in a way to make it not hurt the populace that is used to it as it currently stands. But some of that just might have to be done if you want a better system.
The math itself really isn't that hard.
It is the changes to a 20 year old system that is hard... because players in general hate change. they learn a system and how to best take advantage of said system.. and rebel against having to relearn new systems, regardless of how much better they might be for the game overall.
TDP debt sucks... but it is a product of a system that is largely broken. Sometimes you gotta just rip the bandaid off. They can always just reset tdps and stats to racial baseline and let you put your points where you want from there.. then there is no tdp debt.
Frankly it really comes down to people in DR like to play the 'its the end of the world' card.. when it just means they would have to adjust.
>>The last sentence above proves that this logic is wrong. I understand what it is you want, however to date the math has not supported it.
umm no it didn't. 1000 tdps is a 1000 tdps, regardless if it took 18 or 3 skills to earn them. 3 (or 5 works too) skills is just a lot more balanced, especially across skillsets.
>>I can also tell you what it felt like to have TDP debt. It was not a lot of fun to train less skills to work off a debt before I could train stats on my character again outside of circleing. I was less than 100th circle and had debt that took several months to work off. There are also people that had way more debt than mine. I was around 3000 TDPs in the hole last time.
Yea, this wasn't fun at all and in the end the grandfathered magic ranks I got at 3.1 did not make up for the TDP hole I was put into at 3.0. After playing through all the changes of the last 5 years I'm ready to see some content added to the game and the EXP/TDP system left alone. I don't see how the RoI would be worth the years it would take to try and make it perfect, and in the end the game would lose more than it gained.
Yea, this wasn't fun at all and in the end the grandfathered magic ranks I got at 3.1 did not make up for the TDP hole I was put into at 3.0. After playing through all the changes of the last 5 years I'm ready to see some content added to the game and the EXP/TDP system left alone. I don't see how the RoI would be worth the years it would take to try and make it perfect, and in the end the game would lose more than it gained.
<Frankly it really comes down to people in DR like to play the 'its the end of the world' card.. when it just means they would have to adjust.
Not gonna lie, I'd be pretty PO'd if things went to a 5 skill scheme since I've taken a lot of time into making my character well rounded, and a lot of other folks are in the same boat. Nobody likes a minimalist.
Not gonna lie, I'd be pretty PO'd if things went to a 5 skill scheme since I've taken a lot of time into making my character well rounded, and a lot of other folks are in the same boat. Nobody likes a minimalist.
I don't like the fact that at high levels, everybody hits 100 in all stats, because then everyone becomes the same -- or at least much more similar than they otherwise would be. I like the racial differences, and I like the choice differences.
That said, I don't know if altering the TDP system is the answer. I like that you can choose to train extra skills for TDPs if you want to. It opens up advancement possibilities and it rewards ingenuity and hard work (and, yes, time and scripting ability, but not much to do about those). I'd rather see stat costs balanced after 100.
Something else I wouldn't mind would be a bonus to exp gain after a rest period, to help out the casual gamers. Throttling exp gain (but not drain) after 16 straight hours of play would be okay with me too.
- Navesi
That said, I don't know if altering the TDP system is the answer. I like that you can choose to train extra skills for TDPs if you want to. It opens up advancement possibilities and it rewards ingenuity and hard work (and, yes, time and scripting ability, but not much to do about those). I'd rather see stat costs balanced after 100.
Something else I wouldn't mind would be a bonus to exp gain after a rest period, to help out the casual gamers. Throttling exp gain (but not drain) after 16 straight hours of play would be okay with me too.
- Navesi
Probably outside the scope of this discussion, but could TDPs be used for other things than stats again? Used to be able to buy spell slots as I recall with them. Maybe make some obscenely high costing abilities available for TDPs. Not sure what to offer other than things that wouldn't be approved such as spell slots or tech slots. Anyone have any other ideas?
So... since I don't feel like doing the hard work of staying competitive and training well anymore... I mean... Who cares about so many years of effort right? So, can you make DR even easier please? Lets get rid of even more skills, so I don't have to hunt. We should have just "Combat skill" and then "Non-Combat skill". That would be cool. You know... we could even do like WOW and let you pay to start at a specified circle. That way you don't even HAVE to train anymore. You can just RP it up! We're on a roll! Let's keep it going!
This thread is more and more ridiculous as time progresses. I'd like to know the skill level of those begging for all these changes. It just sounds more and more like lower circle people wanting to make it even easier to get to whatever their perceived end game is. If you want it, work for it like everyone else.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
This thread is more and more ridiculous as time progresses. I'd like to know the skill level of those begging for all these changes. It just sounds more and more like lower circle people wanting to make it even easier to get to whatever their perceived end game is. If you want it, work for it like everyone else.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
I could just as easily point out that all of the people most vocally opposed to the changes are either already high level and/or are known to heavily AFK script, frequently many characters at once and frequently for the purposes of selling those characters later, and therefore have a vested and frequently financial interest in keeping the system precisely the way it is.
Maybe we shouldn't make the thread personal?
Thayet
Twitter: @thayelf
Tumblr: thayette.tumblr.com
Maybe we shouldn't make the thread personal?
Thayet
Twitter: @thayelf
Tumblr: thayette.tumblr.com
I have been playing the game since it was on GEnie.. and I am an advocate for change. Just because something is.. and limps on.. doesn't mean it can't be improved.
I also wouldn't necessarily say changing it to top 3 or 5 would make it 'easier' but it would make it more fair across the board.
>>So, can you make DR even easier please? Lets get rid of even more skills, so I don't have to hunt. We should have just "Combat skill" and then "Non-Combat skill". That would be cool. You know... we could even do like WOW and let you pay to start at a specified circle. That way you don't even HAVE to train anymore. You can just RP it up! We're on a roll! Let's keep it going!
You are now in full on QQ mode.
>>I'd like to know the skill level of those begging for all these changes.
I have multiple skills close to or over 1k and lots of skills 500+. It has very little to do with 'lower circle people' wanting it easier.. and everything to do with wanting a better way to do it... that is more fair to all involved.
You are acting like this would change the game into something completely different... it wouldn't. It would just allow players to make choices and instead of being insane generalists (which is mostly done because you have to for the tdps) people would only train what they need to circle, and what they enjoy. It only benefits the game. And it isn't like it would prevent you from training, nor does it diminish the ranks in any way. You can still become awesome at every weapon if you so choose.
Do you seriously not see my point about how weapon tert is unfair? 18 skills. just in weapons. That means Necromancers, Traders, Empaths and Moon Mages will always have to work harder for the vast majority of tdps in this game. That is almost like having 3 skillsets at tert instead of just 2 like everyone else. Can you take a step back and be honest with everyone and acknowledge that at the very least... that it is a problem?
Is it the end of the world? no. But should it be balanced? most definitely. Especially since people like you are sooooo worried about their time and effort and years of investment.. shouldn't everyone's time be relatively equal?
I also wouldn't necessarily say changing it to top 3 or 5 would make it 'easier' but it would make it more fair across the board.
>>So, can you make DR even easier please? Lets get rid of even more skills, so I don't have to hunt. We should have just "Combat skill" and then "Non-Combat skill". That would be cool. You know... we could even do like WOW and let you pay to start at a specified circle. That way you don't even HAVE to train anymore. You can just RP it up! We're on a roll! Let's keep it going!
You are now in full on QQ mode.
>>I'd like to know the skill level of those begging for all these changes.
I have multiple skills close to or over 1k and lots of skills 500+. It has very little to do with 'lower circle people' wanting it easier.. and everything to do with wanting a better way to do it... that is more fair to all involved.
You are acting like this would change the game into something completely different... it wouldn't. It would just allow players to make choices and instead of being insane generalists (which is mostly done because you have to for the tdps) people would only train what they need to circle, and what they enjoy. It only benefits the game. And it isn't like it would prevent you from training, nor does it diminish the ranks in any way. You can still become awesome at every weapon if you so choose.
Do you seriously not see my point about how weapon tert is unfair? 18 skills. just in weapons. That means Necromancers, Traders, Empaths and Moon Mages will always have to work harder for the vast majority of tdps in this game. That is almost like having 3 skillsets at tert instead of just 2 like everyone else. Can you take a step back and be honest with everyone and acknowledge that at the very least... that it is a problem?
Is it the end of the world? no. But should it be balanced? most definitely. Especially since people like you are sooooo worried about their time and effort and years of investment.. shouldn't everyone's time be relatively equal?
> And frankly the weapons skillset is broken in terms of tdp gain. 18 skills compared to ~6-10 in the other skillsets? At the very least that needs to be fixed in my opinion.
Maybe I'm about to reveal my weak script-fu, and you're all going to laugh at me, but I just don't see it being possible to effectively train all the weapons at once and keep them all burning simultaneously without letting other skills fall by the wayside. Maybe everyone else just knows the secret and I don't. As a WM main, I train virtually everything I need in combat. This includes 6 weapons + offhand. I've thought maybe about adding a 7th. But between all my magics, lores, survivals, I don't see how I could slice the time up to add more than that and still come out locked at the end of my training to take advantage of offline drain. I absolutely could spend time training weapons in 3 batches, but if I did that it would be time spent on breadth rather than depth, but that time could be spent having a higher main weapon instead. If someone chooses to do that there are tradeoffs, and I don't really see that as a horrible choice that's ruining the game.
If we're talking about Barbarians specifically, I suppose you could keep most weapons moving at the same as long as you had no hope of locking them. I haven't tried it myself. But are we making the case here that Barbs are super OP because of it? Because I haven't heard many people saying that.
For the purposes of TDP gain, I see the various skillsets as somewhat balanced except for Lore.
Weapons - 18 skills, but they require active training in combat and you can only do so many at once.
Armor - 6 skills, but you can train them all just by existing in combat.
Magic - 9 skills, easy to train, most can be done in or out of combat.
Survival - 9 skills, most of them trainable in combat. Thievery can go die, but it's just one skill.
Lore - 9 skills (I don't count Mech). Craft skills hard to train anything else with. Easily the worst for TDP's, but crafting is a big deal.
I don't play a Barbarian, but I haven't exactly heard tons of people say Weapons are the best skillset on its own merits, either. Heck, it and Armor offer the least to gain by training multiple skills, since they all do basically the same thing. But at least Armor is passive.
- Saragos
Maybe I'm about to reveal my weak script-fu, and you're all going to laugh at me, but I just don't see it being possible to effectively train all the weapons at once and keep them all burning simultaneously without letting other skills fall by the wayside. Maybe everyone else just knows the secret and I don't. As a WM main, I train virtually everything I need in combat. This includes 6 weapons + offhand. I've thought maybe about adding a 7th. But between all my magics, lores, survivals, I don't see how I could slice the time up to add more than that and still come out locked at the end of my training to take advantage of offline drain. I absolutely could spend time training weapons in 3 batches, but if I did that it would be time spent on breadth rather than depth, but that time could be spent having a higher main weapon instead. If someone chooses to do that there are tradeoffs, and I don't really see that as a horrible choice that's ruining the game.
If we're talking about Barbarians specifically, I suppose you could keep most weapons moving at the same as long as you had no hope of locking them. I haven't tried it myself. But are we making the case here that Barbs are super OP because of it? Because I haven't heard many people saying that.
For the purposes of TDP gain, I see the various skillsets as somewhat balanced except for Lore.
Weapons - 18 skills, but they require active training in combat and you can only do so many at once.
Armor - 6 skills, but you can train them all just by existing in combat.
Magic - 9 skills, easy to train, most can be done in or out of combat.
Survival - 9 skills, most of them trainable in combat. Thievery can go die, but it's just one skill.
Lore - 9 skills (I don't count Mech). Craft skills hard to train anything else with. Easily the worst for TDP's, but crafting is a big deal.
I don't play a Barbarian, but I haven't exactly heard tons of people say Weapons are the best skillset on its own merits, either. Heck, it and Armor offer the least to gain by training multiple skills, since they all do basically the same thing. But at least Armor is passive.
- Saragos
You absolutely do not need to keep things locked to train efficiently now that experience pulses are uniform and it's often counterproductive to attempt to do so.
Obviously this costs you in login pulses, but in terms of active training the goal is not to lock at all, it's to get and keep as many things moving as possible.
Thayet
Twitter: @thayelf
Tumblr: thayette.tumblr.com
Obviously this costs you in login pulses, but in terms of active training the goal is not to lock at all, it's to get and keep as many things moving as possible.
Thayet
Twitter: @thayelf
Tumblr: thayette.tumblr.com
Not necessarily talking about how you would go about training them constantly, and more about the long term ability to have 8+ additional skills that can generate tdps.
But if you want to max your tdp training.. it isn't hard to slowly work a few additional weapons into your rotation.
I would also agree with you that in and of itself.. it is kinda silly to need to train 18 different weapon skills. which is why I think the top 3 or top 5 would be ideal. Then, while you can if you enjoy it, you wouldn't need to for max tdp gain.
But if you want to max your tdp training.. it isn't hard to slowly work a few additional weapons into your rotation.
I would also agree with you that in and of itself.. it is kinda silly to need to train 18 different weapon skills. which is why I think the top 3 or top 5 would be ideal. Then, while you can if you enjoy it, you wouldn't need to for max tdp gain.
> Do you seriously not see my point about how weapon tert is unfair? 18 skills. just in weapons. That means Necromancers, Traders, Empaths and Moon Mages will always have to work harder for the vast majority of tdps in this game. That is almost like having 3 skillsets at tert instead of just 2 like everyone else. Can you take a step back and be honest with everyone and acknowledge that at the very least... that it is a problem?
That wasn't in response to me, but honestly I don't see the problem, because you have to take those guilds in context. The real question is do those "lost TDP's" create a power imbalance that is unintentional and disruptive? How much do those TDP's DO? Because this boils down to a competitive issue - does another guild have an unfair advantage over me in TDP's that's great enough to worry about. Because if we're not talking about competition for power, what do we care about someone having more TDP's?
Moon Mages - Lack offensive power by design, but are super easy to circle and have tons of utility. If they have a problem with weapons, the case to make is that they need better offensive spells, which I personally think they do. That depends on how you mentally rank everything else they've got, though.
Necromancers - Meant to be "hard mode". Their training seems more annoying to me than many other guilds because you likely have to split time between different creatures, but that's not too bad? - higher necros might beg to differ. They've got some nice offensive options, though.
Empaths - Empaths have such a weird relationship with combat that I don't know how we can compare them. But if I were to point to things that make Empaths less powerful than other guilds in combat, being weapons tert would be nowhere near the top of my list.
Traders - Traders are a broken guild when it comes to combat. We can't compare them until they at least get some spells and abilities that do... anything.
> Not necessarily talking about how you would go about training them constantly, and more about the long term ability to have 8+ additional skills that can generate tdps.
> But if you want to max your tdp training.. it isn't hard to slowly work a few additional weapons into your rotation.
It's not about a "few additional weapons". The point at which weapons become arguably competitive with Magic as a skillset is when someone is training 5-6 weapons for 8-9 skills total (it depends on how you feel about Sorcery). That's if you ignore how much simpler magic is to train. Given the realities of training, I suspect it's more like training 8-9 weapons - so long as you can manage to keep them all moving. Honestly, I'm betting if we could see the numbers for everyone that things are far more "unfair" in favor of Magic Prime compared to everyone else.
Ultimately, if you look at the formulas, you're far better off spending time training your main skills than backtraining others, so long as you're not hardcapped on ranks. Heck, this same discussion came up several times in reverse with Thieves/Barbs being worried about lagging behind everyone else in TDP's and missing a few skills from the Magic skillset.
- Saragos
That wasn't in response to me, but honestly I don't see the problem, because you have to take those guilds in context. The real question is do those "lost TDP's" create a power imbalance that is unintentional and disruptive? How much do those TDP's DO? Because this boils down to a competitive issue - does another guild have an unfair advantage over me in TDP's that's great enough to worry about. Because if we're not talking about competition for power, what do we care about someone having more TDP's?
Moon Mages - Lack offensive power by design, but are super easy to circle and have tons of utility. If they have a problem with weapons, the case to make is that they need better offensive spells, which I personally think they do. That depends on how you mentally rank everything else they've got, though.
Necromancers - Meant to be "hard mode". Their training seems more annoying to me than many other guilds because you likely have to split time between different creatures, but that's not too bad? - higher necros might beg to differ. They've got some nice offensive options, though.
Empaths - Empaths have such a weird relationship with combat that I don't know how we can compare them. But if I were to point to things that make Empaths less powerful than other guilds in combat, being weapons tert would be nowhere near the top of my list.
Traders - Traders are a broken guild when it comes to combat. We can't compare them until they at least get some spells and abilities that do... anything.
> Not necessarily talking about how you would go about training them constantly, and more about the long term ability to have 8+ additional skills that can generate tdps.
> But if you want to max your tdp training.. it isn't hard to slowly work a few additional weapons into your rotation.
It's not about a "few additional weapons". The point at which weapons become arguably competitive with Magic as a skillset is when someone is training 5-6 weapons for 8-9 skills total (it depends on how you feel about Sorcery). That's if you ignore how much simpler magic is to train. Given the realities of training, I suspect it's more like training 8-9 weapons - so long as you can manage to keep them all moving. Honestly, I'm betting if we could see the numbers for everyone that things are far more "unfair" in favor of Magic Prime compared to everyone else.
Ultimately, if you look at the formulas, you're far better off spending time training your main skills than backtraining others, so long as you're not hardcapped on ranks. Heck, this same discussion came up several times in reverse with Thieves/Barbs being worried about lagging behind everyone else in TDP's and missing a few skills from the Magic skillset.
- Saragos
>> but honestly I don't see the problem,
You don't consider thousands of potential extra tdps a problem?
Just look at traders. Perfect example. They have almost zero access to the magic skillset. Those 9 skills make a difference in how many tdps they have. You figure a level 100+ trader would have ~300ish magics in most skills by then if they had access to it? (probably a lot more.. but meh) so around 2500ish ranks? thats a good chunk of tdps. ~1.5-2k. Just with ranks to 300..
That makes it worth it. It makes it a competitive advantage.
You are also looking at this from a comparison standpoint of trying to evaluate each guild and their role. It shouldn't matter. Learning is learning. You are already penalized in your learning based upon primary, secondary, tertiary skillsets. On top of that, if weapons are tert, you kinda double dip in the penalty because there are almost double the amount of skills in it.
53 total skills in the game(well, for each class, 1 skill bounces around) and of them, 18 are in weapons. 53 almost works out perfectly since there are 5 skillsets. But it doesn't breakdown neatly at all because weapons ends up with almost 40% of the tdps.
That weapons has so many skills isn't even necessarily a bad thing.. if there is a system like top 3 or top 5. A system that makes it so that any additional choices beyond those 3 or 5 in any skillset are just personal in nature and don't really matter as far as tdps go.
>>The point at which weapons become arguably competitive with Magic as a skillset is when someone is training 5-6 weapons for 8-9 skills total
Most of the people I know that hunt a lot... train almost all weapons. There are plenty of scripts out there that will rotate through a dozen different weapons... or you can just do it yourself..
>>you're far better off spending time training your main skills than backtraining others
Currently this isn't true, or there wouldn't be any argument against a top 3 or top 5 system. You can generate a lot of fast tdps currently by just leveling up low skills, since they rank faster. I can rank my TM 10+ times in the amount of time it takes me to gain 1 rank in engineering.. That adds up. Especially if you are doing that with multiple weapons.
>>this same discussion came up several times in reverse with Thieves/Barbs
I was also heavily against the magic changes back in the day when they originally stripped magic from thieves and traders (and barbs kinda lol).. because of how it removed an entire skillset from them and how it impacted their tdp gain. I think it is a lot fairer now that they have at least access to the skillset. Haven't played much with my thief since like 2001 though so I can't really comment much on their current state.
You don't consider thousands of potential extra tdps a problem?
Just look at traders. Perfect example. They have almost zero access to the magic skillset. Those 9 skills make a difference in how many tdps they have. You figure a level 100+ trader would have ~300ish magics in most skills by then if they had access to it? (probably a lot more.. but meh) so around 2500ish ranks? thats a good chunk of tdps. ~1.5-2k. Just with ranks to 300..
That makes it worth it. It makes it a competitive advantage.
You are also looking at this from a comparison standpoint of trying to evaluate each guild and their role. It shouldn't matter. Learning is learning. You are already penalized in your learning based upon primary, secondary, tertiary skillsets. On top of that, if weapons are tert, you kinda double dip in the penalty because there are almost double the amount of skills in it.
53 total skills in the game(well, for each class, 1 skill bounces around) and of them, 18 are in weapons. 53 almost works out perfectly since there are 5 skillsets. But it doesn't breakdown neatly at all because weapons ends up with almost 40% of the tdps.
That weapons has so many skills isn't even necessarily a bad thing.. if there is a system like top 3 or top 5. A system that makes it so that any additional choices beyond those 3 or 5 in any skillset are just personal in nature and don't really matter as far as tdps go.
>>The point at which weapons become arguably competitive with Magic as a skillset is when someone is training 5-6 weapons for 8-9 skills total
Most of the people I know that hunt a lot... train almost all weapons. There are plenty of scripts out there that will rotate through a dozen different weapons... or you can just do it yourself..
>>you're far better off spending time training your main skills than backtraining others
Currently this isn't true, or there wouldn't be any argument against a top 3 or top 5 system. You can generate a lot of fast tdps currently by just leveling up low skills, since they rank faster. I can rank my TM 10+ times in the amount of time it takes me to gain 1 rank in engineering.. That adds up. Especially if you are doing that with multiple weapons.
>>this same discussion came up several times in reverse with Thieves/Barbs
I was also heavily against the magic changes back in the day when they originally stripped magic from thieves and traders (and barbs kinda lol).. because of how it removed an entire skillset from them and how it impacted their tdp gain. I think it is a lot fairer now that they have at least access to the skillset. Haven't played much with my thief since like 2001 though so I can't really comment much on their current state.
LOL
I wasn't QQ'ing at all. It was to make an over exaggeration on my point, like this sounds to me.
I train as efficiently as possible. That being said, I'm awful at scripting.
I train 10 weapons (counting offhand), and all armors. I'm weapons second and armor tert. It is not the easiest thing in the world, but it's my path. I've never been one for easy. I main a thief, always have. I've ALWAYS trained ALL weapons and armors. I've always been combat oriented. The best part is I don't have to care if you like how he's built. It's a game. And it's my character.
Your circle: 100
Total ranks in weapons: 7884
Total ranks in armor: 3212
Total ranks in magic: 2450
Total ranks in survival: 5301
Total ranks in lore: 2028
Total ranks gained: 20875
TDPs Gained: 27849
Total Ranks: 20875
Most my armor (tert) ranks are higher than most my weapons(secondary), most my magic (tert) ranks are too. My top 4 survivals (prime) are above those numbers... but not the others. And you can say what you want, but I'd argue that my toon is one of the better trained thieves IG.
You can complain about your skillset placement all you want, but it is what it is. Devote yourself and train around it... Or make another character. Skill sets are one of the great things about this game that help to differentiate between guilds. Characters that train well, get that resepect. People like Hitoshi who was a crazy moon mage forger almost as good as Caraamon, Nitish who was a nutso combat moon mage, Lenarra who was much lower key but held her own for years as one of the top combat moon mages. Myannah forged armor as an empath under the OLD system. If you don't know, that was crazy... Those are just a FEW examples of people tho trained outside the box for thier guilds. And in a time before now when it's now MUCH easier.
As for "working much harder"... you have ALWAYS had access to magic, where you could work magic skills both in and out of combat. Mostly you don't even have to step foot in combat to have the access to the massive amount of TDPs that brings in. This isn't GvG, this is cold hard facts and examples. No, I don't think weapon tert is unfair. It is what it is. Thieves NEVER had magic until 3.1. Not just didn't have it, couldn't work it. We were almost COMPLETELY locked out of those skills and TDPs unless we listened to classes. And Some did. Some guys worked HUNDREDS of ranks just from classes man. It was crazy. Yes I have magic now as a thief... but really? Here... here was my grandfathered ranks (Well... the closest log I could find to when thief magic went live):
Inner Magic: 242 00% clear (0/34) Arcana: 200 01% clear (0/34)
Augmentation: 192 00% clear (0/34) Debilitation: 151 00% clear (0/34)
Utility: 151 00% clear (0/34)
Pretty sweet right? Yeah... got loads of TDPs from those bad boys too. Sorry you couldn't ever work magic before, here you go. Oh... guess what, any of those magic skills that you worked before aside from arcana? Well, they screwed up the grandfathering bit, so it actually ended up working against you. BTW MY Arcana was from me working it on my own, the old fashioned way... using classes, sandalwood fans, lightning wands, and an achaedi crystal. I did that for character depth because before I quit DR it was the time of Constellation Jewelry and Inviso Rings... and see, thieves were locked out and couldn't use THAT whole system without MD (now arcana) ranks. So we spent gobs of plats to be able to, or listen to stupid classes.
Get the point yet? It could always be worse. Again, it's not GvG, just showing the other side. You don't HAVE to do anything but get your guild reqs if you want to circle. You aren't jumping through stupid hoops. You don't HAVE to have craploads of TDPs. But if you want them, you work for them and they are there. It's your option. Thieves used to complain for the same reason. Between ALL of the weapons skills that there used to be, it was much harder to stay relevant. Completely locked out of one skillset, and could only train most of ours as survival prime. Which hurt, quite a bit.
Yes people train more generally now. But that's because it's honestly MUCH easier. Like... a bajillion times easier. So while there aren't as many cool stand out examples from DR 3.1... that's more because it's easier to train that way, so people do. There have been a crapload of system updates, new systems, and QOL improvements since that time. Complaining about skill set placement is what got you into this position. Now it's infinitely easier to train.
Now to use your own examples...
Necros... They seem to do pretty well for themselves in combat, and pvp.
Empaths? Dude. Really? You'll laugh but I seriously think Empath is one of the most OP guilds in PVE. They have so much DEV for ridiculous things that I've NEVER seen in another healer class anywhere.
Moon Mages not what they once were in pvp, but overall, they still do what they do just fine. I know plenty of people that rock the hell out of moon mages. Also have some pretty sweet crafting perks.
Trader? Well, they are riding the train to screwed town and have been for a long while, at least until they get brought to 3.1. But that being said, they've got it better than anyone on crafting. Hell, it even trains their primary guild skill.
Skill sets are vital, and are set up how they are for a reason. What if they got rid of a tert skill set and you had 3 secondary's? You'd still see a lot of the same crap. All I'm hearing is "It's hard for me to train like everyone else so make it easier, or make it so they can't train like they are". That may not be what you are after, but that sure as hell is what it comes across as.
I don't disagree that something needs to change, I just think that making this more Samerealms is not the answer. I don't think this is the way. If you want to stand out, stand out. If not, I guess you and others will sit back and whine. I just hope the GM's disregard it.
I wish the GM's would post census data of all the guilds who have chars over... 100th, 150th, and then who have hit 200. I know far more magic users than nmu's off the top of my head. Yeah, I'd love to see that census.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
I wasn't QQ'ing at all. It was to make an over exaggeration on my point, like this sounds to me.
I train as efficiently as possible. That being said, I'm awful at scripting.
I train 10 weapons (counting offhand), and all armors. I'm weapons second and armor tert. It is not the easiest thing in the world, but it's my path. I've never been one for easy. I main a thief, always have. I've ALWAYS trained ALL weapons and armors. I've always been combat oriented. The best part is I don't have to care if you like how he's built. It's a game. And it's my character.
Your circle: 100
Total ranks in weapons: 7884
Total ranks in armor: 3212
Total ranks in magic: 2450
Total ranks in survival: 5301
Total ranks in lore: 2028
Total ranks gained: 20875
TDPs Gained: 27849
Total Ranks: 20875
Most my armor (tert) ranks are higher than most my weapons(secondary), most my magic (tert) ranks are too. My top 4 survivals (prime) are above those numbers... but not the others. And you can say what you want, but I'd argue that my toon is one of the better trained thieves IG.
You can complain about your skillset placement all you want, but it is what it is. Devote yourself and train around it... Or make another character. Skill sets are one of the great things about this game that help to differentiate between guilds. Characters that train well, get that resepect. People like Hitoshi who was a crazy moon mage forger almost as good as Caraamon, Nitish who was a nutso combat moon mage, Lenarra who was much lower key but held her own for years as one of the top combat moon mages. Myannah forged armor as an empath under the OLD system. If you don't know, that was crazy... Those are just a FEW examples of people tho trained outside the box for thier guilds. And in a time before now when it's now MUCH easier.
As for "working much harder"... you have ALWAYS had access to magic, where you could work magic skills both in and out of combat. Mostly you don't even have to step foot in combat to have the access to the massive amount of TDPs that brings in. This isn't GvG, this is cold hard facts and examples. No, I don't think weapon tert is unfair. It is what it is. Thieves NEVER had magic until 3.1. Not just didn't have it, couldn't work it. We were almost COMPLETELY locked out of those skills and TDPs unless we listened to classes. And Some did. Some guys worked HUNDREDS of ranks just from classes man. It was crazy. Yes I have magic now as a thief... but really? Here... here was my grandfathered ranks (Well... the closest log I could find to when thief magic went live):
Inner Magic: 242 00% clear (0/34) Arcana: 200 01% clear (0/34)
Augmentation: 192 00% clear (0/34) Debilitation: 151 00% clear (0/34)
Utility: 151 00% clear (0/34)
Pretty sweet right? Yeah... got loads of TDPs from those bad boys too. Sorry you couldn't ever work magic before, here you go. Oh... guess what, any of those magic skills that you worked before aside from arcana? Well, they screwed up the grandfathering bit, so it actually ended up working against you. BTW MY Arcana was from me working it on my own, the old fashioned way... using classes, sandalwood fans, lightning wands, and an achaedi crystal. I did that for character depth because before I quit DR it was the time of Constellation Jewelry and Inviso Rings... and see, thieves were locked out and couldn't use THAT whole system without MD (now arcana) ranks. So we spent gobs of plats to be able to, or listen to stupid classes.
Get the point yet? It could always be worse. Again, it's not GvG, just showing the other side. You don't HAVE to do anything but get your guild reqs if you want to circle. You aren't jumping through stupid hoops. You don't HAVE to have craploads of TDPs. But if you want them, you work for them and they are there. It's your option. Thieves used to complain for the same reason. Between ALL of the weapons skills that there used to be, it was much harder to stay relevant. Completely locked out of one skillset, and could only train most of ours as survival prime. Which hurt, quite a bit.
Yes people train more generally now. But that's because it's honestly MUCH easier. Like... a bajillion times easier. So while there aren't as many cool stand out examples from DR 3.1... that's more because it's easier to train that way, so people do. There have been a crapload of system updates, new systems, and QOL improvements since that time. Complaining about skill set placement is what got you into this position. Now it's infinitely easier to train.
Now to use your own examples...
Necros... They seem to do pretty well for themselves in combat, and pvp.
Empaths? Dude. Really? You'll laugh but I seriously think Empath is one of the most OP guilds in PVE. They have so much DEV for ridiculous things that I've NEVER seen in another healer class anywhere.
Moon Mages not what they once were in pvp, but overall, they still do what they do just fine. I know plenty of people that rock the hell out of moon mages. Also have some pretty sweet crafting perks.
Trader? Well, they are riding the train to screwed town and have been for a long while, at least until they get brought to 3.1. But that being said, they've got it better than anyone on crafting. Hell, it even trains their primary guild skill.
Skill sets are vital, and are set up how they are for a reason. What if they got rid of a tert skill set and you had 3 secondary's? You'd still see a lot of the same crap. All I'm hearing is "It's hard for me to train like everyone else so make it easier, or make it so they can't train like they are". That may not be what you are after, but that sure as hell is what it comes across as.
I don't disagree that something needs to change, I just think that making this more Samerealms is not the answer. I don't think this is the way. If you want to stand out, stand out. If not, I guess you and others will sit back and whine. I just hope the GM's disregard it.
I wish the GM's would post census data of all the guilds who have chars over... 100th, 150th, and then who have hit 200. I know far more magic users than nmu's off the top of my head. Yeah, I'd love to see that census.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
>>It's a game. And it's my character.
It is, and power to you. Looks like you have a great character, and one you enjoy. Which is nice. Nothing about how you train or where you would want to exist in game would change. With a top 3 or top 5 system you just wouldn't gain tdps from extra weapon skills. But you would still be awesome with multiple weapons... which should be the main point in training a weapon.
>>You can complain about your skillset placement all you want
Not complaining. At all. Pointing out that there is a discrepancy in how weapons tert is double dipping in the learning penalty... when it really shouldn't be.
>>Thieves NEVER had magic until 3.1. Not just didn't have it, couldn't work it. We were almost COMPLETELY locked out of those skills and TDPs unless we listened to classes.
Not technically true. But I agree in general with that paragraph. But I also argued when those changes went into effect and even runestones were stripped from thieves that it was BS. It was the right move to give access to the magic skillset back to thieves. Because tdp access should be equal to all guilds. Though it definitely seems like based upon your logs the magic situation for thieves isn't that much improved. meh. that is a completely different conversation.
>>the rest of it..
You are basically complaining at this point about how you have had it hard or they didn't have the system set up right in the past.. maybe even now.. but because you dealt with it or adjusted to it... that it shouldn't then be improved upon.. and that is just bad logic.
>>class comparison stuff
This isn't about class comparisons or what one guild can do that another can't. This is about simply leveling the playing field for tdps. Which would make it more balanced across the game as a whole. Which should be something you support based upon the bad experiences you have mentioned.
>>class numbers/census data
Considering there are 12 guilds and 3 of them are semi-nonmagicalish, with traders becoming magical at some point.. there should be more magic users period. It doesn't help that thieves in general feel like they have lost a ton of the mojo that they used to have. Traders are traders... and Barbs.. well I see plenty of barbarians.
It is, and power to you. Looks like you have a great character, and one you enjoy. Which is nice. Nothing about how you train or where you would want to exist in game would change. With a top 3 or top 5 system you just wouldn't gain tdps from extra weapon skills. But you would still be awesome with multiple weapons... which should be the main point in training a weapon.
>>You can complain about your skillset placement all you want
Not complaining. At all. Pointing out that there is a discrepancy in how weapons tert is double dipping in the learning penalty... when it really shouldn't be.
>>Thieves NEVER had magic until 3.1. Not just didn't have it, couldn't work it. We were almost COMPLETELY locked out of those skills and TDPs unless we listened to classes.
Not technically true. But I agree in general with that paragraph. But I also argued when those changes went into effect and even runestones were stripped from thieves that it was BS. It was the right move to give access to the magic skillset back to thieves. Because tdp access should be equal to all guilds. Though it definitely seems like based upon your logs the magic situation for thieves isn't that much improved. meh. that is a completely different conversation.
>>the rest of it..
You are basically complaining at this point about how you have had it hard or they didn't have the system set up right in the past.. maybe even now.. but because you dealt with it or adjusted to it... that it shouldn't then be improved upon.. and that is just bad logic.
>>class comparison stuff
This isn't about class comparisons or what one guild can do that another can't. This is about simply leveling the playing field for tdps. Which would make it more balanced across the game as a whole. Which should be something you support based upon the bad experiences you have mentioned.
>>class numbers/census data
Considering there are 12 guilds and 3 of them are semi-nonmagicalish, with traders becoming magical at some point.. there should be more magic users period. It doesn't help that thieves in general feel like they have lost a ton of the mojo that they used to have. Traders are traders... and Barbs.. well I see plenty of barbarians.
The Barbarian, because he can train almost all of his skills in combat and doesn't have half of the game hunting him down if he tries to use his abilities.
(sorry, had to go there)
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(sorry, had to go there)
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators
Since most systems have been sort of balanced with the current tdp/stat system tossing it all out would be like DR 3.0 + 3.1 + 3.2 + 3.3 + 3.4 + 3.5 + 3.6 + 3.7. We'd be seeing new content development somewhere around 2025. Why is this thread still even persisting? As a philosophical discussion ok, but seriously? Threads like this are why there's 20 to 30 people who are regular posters.
Vote:
http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
Vote:
http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
>Since most systems have been sort of balanced with the current tdp/stat system
And the people doing that balancing say its broken? Historically when a system has been difficult to balance around, GMs stop developing around it because what's the point?
Id wager its 50/50 that started getting discussed internally because of philosophical "this would be good for the health of the game long term" and "oh but we can't do any of that because the tdp model is out of control"
Your search-fu is pig dung!
And the people doing that balancing say its broken? Historically when a system has been difficult to balance around, GMs stop developing around it because what's the point?
Id wager its 50/50 that started getting discussed internally because of philosophical "this would be good for the health of the game long term" and "oh but we can't do any of that because the tdp model is out of control"
Your search-fu is pig dung!
I'd like to point out that if the cap for a stat point is around 200, and "cookie-cutter" is all 100s (one of my characters that I have played daily for like 4 years doesn't even have all 70s), TDPs are hardly out of control. If you have ever tried to gain 1 stat point over 100, you know it takes quite a while to achieve. If anything, the insane cost at that level is the balancing factor.
"Brace yourselves, Squanto is going to bleh blah fart fart bleh.." -the player of the character formerly known as Pureblade
"Brace yourselves, Squanto is going to bleh blah fart fart bleh.." -the player of the character formerly known as Pureblade
>>Or we could stop expecting this game to be a perpetual number go bigger simulator and explore other things to do once we reach the cap? I think DRs biggest problems right now are the extrodinarily high cap which spreads the character population over such a ridiculous ranges. The solution isn't to just keep raising the caps.
i'm curious why you believe this is such an issue, from someone who keeps posting about diversification in stat spread across the population, why do you have such a problem with how wide the ranges are? ultimately, i think it comes down to this: you enjoy DR in a different fashion than others, neither of which is wrong and does not require a system limit because you feel the need to have one. no one is forcing you to reach for 110 in strength etc. take a load off and stop training if it bothers you so much
i speak from my experience, if 150 had stayed the the circle limit, having hit it, i'm not sure that i'd have stuck around to see all the other content that was afterward implemented with crafting. i like seeing my progress and my numbers increase. why is this such an issue that needs to be addressed at the system level (actual system/memory limits notwithstanding)? and more specifically why do i have to conform to your style of game play when the game already offers varied play styles?
Damian, a voice from the distant and long-forgotten past.
AIM:DamianDR
i'm curious why you believe this is such an issue, from someone who keeps posting about diversification in stat spread across the population, why do you have such a problem with how wide the ranges are? ultimately, i think it comes down to this: you enjoy DR in a different fashion than others, neither of which is wrong and does not require a system limit because you feel the need to have one. no one is forcing you to reach for 110 in strength etc. take a load off and stop training if it bothers you so much
i speak from my experience, if 150 had stayed the the circle limit, having hit it, i'm not sure that i'd have stuck around to see all the other content that was afterward implemented with crafting. i like seeing my progress and my numbers increase. why is this such an issue that needs to be addressed at the system level (actual system/memory limits notwithstanding)? and more specifically why do i have to conform to your style of game play when the game already offers varied play styles?
Damian, a voice from the distant and long-forgotten past.
AIM:DamianDR
>I'd like to point out that if the cap for a stat point is around 200, and "cookie-cutter" is all 100s (one of my characters that I have played daily for like 4 years doesn't even have all 70s), TDPs are hardly out of control. If you have ever tried to gain 1 stat point over 100, you know it takes quite a while to achieve. If anything, the insane cost at that level is the balancing factor.
What Squanto states here is exactly right and what I was trying to say previously. Also, I'm with Elec's view. If the 3-5 skill only giving TDPs were implemented I'd probably not play anymore. That's not an ultimatum or a reason not to make a change like this, but for me, I see it as completely unfair, unneeded, and downright crazy. For example, what if one of my top 3-5 was crossbow and my only ranged weapon. Then changes like say, bow making, come out that affect my decision. Now I have to train up bow (personal choice I know) to pass one of those 3-5 to start gaining TDPs again?
That's just one example but the unintended consequences of changing TDP gain to a system like being discussed are vast and could through the game into the dustbin of history. That's how serious I think it is.
Finally, it sounds like the ones wanting this kind of change are more about "keeping up with the Jones" than about fairness. If you want the TDPs, do the work.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
What Squanto states here is exactly right and what I was trying to say previously. Also, I'm with Elec's view. If the 3-5 skill only giving TDPs were implemented I'd probably not play anymore. That's not an ultimatum or a reason not to make a change like this, but for me, I see it as completely unfair, unneeded, and downright crazy. For example, what if one of my top 3-5 was crossbow and my only ranged weapon. Then changes like say, bow making, come out that affect my decision. Now I have to train up bow (personal choice I know) to pass one of those 3-5 to start gaining TDPs again?
That's just one example but the unintended consequences of changing TDP gain to a system like being discussed are vast and could through the game into the dustbin of history. That's how serious I think it is.
Finally, it sounds like the ones wanting this kind of change are more about "keeping up with the Jones" than about fairness. If you want the TDPs, do the work.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
Say you do switch from crossbow to bow? You still have all the TDPs from training crossbow, you didn't lose anything. In effect, you have the TDPs of having a much higher bow skill than your character actually has. I tend to agree with Armifer, the benefit of training a skill should by far be that you are better at using that skill. Switching TDP formulas wouldn't make Elec any less of a beast in combat, in terms of skill. What it would do is remove the incentive to carry around 3 different sets of leg armor, 3 swords, 4 different-shaped bludgeons, a spear, a bow, and a crossbow, just to train your stats (yes, I know swappable weapons mitigate the number of things to carry).
Not that it's relevant, but I'll just add that I've trained every weapon on my Bard enough that mastery lets me use it close to at level, and while I don't swap greaves, I do have a set-up that trains every armor.
Not that it's relevant, but I'll just add that I've trained every weapon on my Bard enough that mastery lets me use it close to at level, and while I don't swap greaves, I do have a set-up that trains every armor.
You guys keep talking about "incentive to train everything"... I don't understand that. It's a game, the incentive is that if you want a good and well rounded character, you train it. Put in the work. This is how life works... That is what I can't wrap my head around. It's like... using Juggling instead of HUNT. One is more efficient and allows me to make my character better in a different way. The other is simply tedious...S o that's what I choose to use. Instead of using either system though, it's like you are telling me I am going to need to use treasure maps to lock my perc.
I refuse to be told how I'm going to train by people who just want it easier. That's asinine. I'll not let my enjoyment of the game be ruined by a few people who can't/aren't/won't (be) able to even use the said system they are proposing. You think this "makes things fair" or is going to make training your character better, but it's not. It's not going to be any different than it currently is... I've put in the work, you haven't. Why should I suffer?
Your argument should be for more effective ways to spend TDPs to fill out characters instead of just stat points... Like an entire customization system where you can spend TDPs for RP purposes like custom features, or a cool scar, or a special prep, or an extra slot for a feat.
But then the gripe will be "But I've used my TDPs on RP choices and you didn't! So your stats are better than mine! Nerf stats!"
LOL this will never end and this thread has spiraled completely out of control. Absolutely ludicrous. And I don't mean the rapper. I'd not tolerate someone trying to nerf him.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
I refuse to be told how I'm going to train by people who just want it easier. That's asinine. I'll not let my enjoyment of the game be ruined by a few people who can't/aren't/won't (be) able to even use the said system they are proposing. You think this "makes things fair" or is going to make training your character better, but it's not. It's not going to be any different than it currently is... I've put in the work, you haven't. Why should I suffer?
Your argument should be for more effective ways to spend TDPs to fill out characters instead of just stat points... Like an entire customization system where you can spend TDPs for RP purposes like custom features, or a cool scar, or a special prep, or an extra slot for a feat.
But then the gripe will be "But I've used my TDPs on RP choices and you didn't! So your stats are better than mine! Nerf stats!"
LOL this will never end and this thread has spiraled completely out of control. Absolutely ludicrous. And I don't mean the rapper. I'd not tolerate someone trying to nerf him.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
>Say you do switch from crossbow to bow? You still have all the TDPs from training crossbow, you didn't lose anything.
Actually this was my specific situation when I returned to DR two years ago after an extended hiatus. DR 2.0 wrecked my character development. DR 3.0 gave it new life. It took me 1 1/2 years of hard back training to get my lower weapons up to the level of my third highest. It'll take me another year to get all those up to the same level as my two highest. I didn't circle for that 1 1/2 years so that means would have received next to no tdps and would have stats in the 40s up to circle 100 (I was at 85 for that 1 1/2 years). This may not seem like a big deal but the way barbs have to push critter ladder to circle there'd be almost no way to make up the stat differential I needed to start circling again.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
Actually this was my specific situation when I returned to DR two years ago after an extended hiatus. DR 2.0 wrecked my character development. DR 3.0 gave it new life. It took me 1 1/2 years of hard back training to get my lower weapons up to the level of my third highest. It'll take me another year to get all those up to the same level as my two highest. I didn't circle for that 1 1/2 years so that means would have received next to no tdps and would have stats in the 40s up to circle 100 (I was at 85 for that 1 1/2 years). This may not seem like a big deal but the way barbs have to push critter ladder to circle there'd be almost no way to make up the stat differential I needed to start circling again.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
The point should be, somewhat similarly to what Armifer said, that each guild should have skills they focus on, and those skills should in and of their own merits be valid. A barbarian that trains 10 weapons to 200 each is not going to be better off in terms of raw offensive power than a Moon Mage who trains TM/debil to 200, but (and this is the important part!) *the barbarian in this example will have more TDPs, and thus more stats, and thus be in a better place than the moon mage*.
This is silly, because it means there is a specific way to train characters that is actually counter intuitive for their overall actual function, if you want to be competitive in PvP. And this is FURTHER exacerbated by the fact that because everyone trains like this over long long long periods of time, 100 in all stats is considered the baseline from which further differentiation can finally happen.
There is a lot more to do in DR than make your numbers get bigger. Indeed, one of the things that has kept me playing DR is the experience of trying each guild the game has to offer. If you get your character to the point where you're bored witless and just watching numbers get bigger, consider rolling a new character! No MMO to date has stuck around because a singular class could enjoy a decade long grind - most of them stuck around because of content releases and other things to do, or, le gasp, other classes to try.
>> I'd like to point out that if the cap for a stat point is around 200, and "cookie-cutter" is all 100s (one of my characters that I have played daily for like 4 years doesn't even have all 70s), TDPs are hardly out of control. If you have ever tried to gain 1 stat point over 100, you know it takes quite a while to achieve.
The original request was to give some thought to how long milestones like that should actually take for different playstyles, and make adjustments to the system as necessary. I still think that's a reasonable request.
That is an absolutely massive amount of time for something people are treating as "baseline stats" as well. I think that's a deeply flawed perspective and assertion unique to a tiny sliver of the playerbase personally, so it would be nice to know if GM-side this perception is shared.
>> But then the gripe will be "But I've used my TDPs on RP choices and you didn't! So your stats are better than mine! Nerf stats!"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
>> This may not seem like a big deal but the way barbs have to push critter ladder to circle there'd be almost no way to make up the stat differential I needed to start circling again.
Doesn't this kind of fly in the face of people saying the current model is fine and people saying it's completely optional (albeit objectively worse)?
Thayet
Twitter: @thayelf
Tumblr: thayette.tumblr.com
The original request was to give some thought to how long milestones like that should actually take for different playstyles, and make adjustments to the system as necessary. I still think that's a reasonable request.
That is an absolutely massive amount of time for something people are treating as "baseline stats" as well. I think that's a deeply flawed perspective and assertion unique to a tiny sliver of the playerbase personally, so it would be nice to know if GM-side this perception is shared.
>> But then the gripe will be "But I've used my TDPs on RP choices and you didn't! So your stats are better than mine! Nerf stats!"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
>> This may not seem like a big deal but the way barbs have to push critter ladder to circle there'd be almost no way to make up the stat differential I needed to start circling again.
Doesn't this kind of fly in the face of people saying the current model is fine and people saying it's completely optional (albeit objectively worse)?
Thayet
Twitter: @thayelf
Tumblr: thayette.tumblr.com
>>Also, I'm with Elec's view. If the 3-5 skill only giving TDPs were implemented I'd probably not play anymore.
Bye. But I bet you would. and would just adjust. because it wouldn't really change how anyone plays, except that you wouldn't be forced to train 18 weapons to earn as many tdps as possible. You still could if you enjoy that, and the ranks would still do their main role, which is help you use said weapon more effectively.
>>completely unfair, unneeded, and downright crazy.
The proposed top3 or top5 idea... doesn't change anything about how DR is played. Weapons would still be able to be learned. You would still use those skills to fight with those weapons, etc. The ONLY thing it changes is how tdps are earned, and it makes it completely FAIR, unlike the current system -- which double dips on the penalty by having almost twice the number of skills in weapons than any other skillset.
>>For example, what if one of my top 3-5 was crossbow and my only ranged weapon. Then changes like say, bow making, come out that affect my decision. Now I have to train up bow (personal choice I know) to pass one of those 3-5 to start gaining TDPs again?
Yes. So? the other tdps wouldn't go away. And once you pass crossbows you would then start gaining new tdps with bows. And as Armifer even said.. the main reason to train bows in that situation is because you want to use bows.. not just to gain tdps.
>>That's just one example but the unintended consequences of changing TDP gain to a system like being discussed are vast and could through the game into the dustbin of history. That's how serious I think it is.
Fear-mongering at its best and beyond ridiculous.
>>Finally, it sounds like the ones wanting this kind of change are more about "keeping up with the Jones" than about fairness.
Even Armifer is for the change. And it isn't about 'keeping up with jones' as much as it is, lets make sure that everyone has equal access to tdps. It is called game balance.
Let me break it down again for you.
top3 or top5:
-skills would still be skills. reasons for training them would still be primarily to use said skill. (or because your guild requires it)
-tdps would only be earned from the top3 or top5 in each skillset. This equalizes tdp gain across skillsets, regardless of how many skills are in each skillset. (Hint: This is called game balance. It is an important thing.)
-This allows developers to add as many skills as they want, because it wouldn't impact tdp gain.
-tdp generation, if developers decide they want to leave it as is, could still generate the same amount of tdps as they currently do. (Meaning, that if the weapons skillset currently produces xyz tdps, even if they switch it to a top3 or top5 system, it would still produce xyz tdps, you would just only gain them from 3 or 5 skills, instead of having to train every skill.)
-The Weapons skillset no matter what, shouldn't offer as many tdps as it currently does. It is broken period. Unless you are just really horribad at math and can't figure out why having almost double the skills in weapons compared to every other skillset is a bad thing, you are basically just enjoying a broken system and don't want it fixed. At least be honest about it.
>>You guys keep talking about "incentive to train everything"... I don't understand that. and the rest...
You are just talking about random stuff at this point, that has zero to do with the real conversation.
If you want to train up weapons, power to you. train them. But you should be training them because you want to use those weapons. Not because the system is broken and has double the amount of weapon skills and you are using them to gain tdps.
If this was reversed and magic or lore had 20 skills and weapons only had 10, it would be the same problem, and still wouldn't be okay because the skillsets wouldn't be balanced. If everyone learned everything at the same speed, it wouldn't matter, but that isn't how DR works (and that would be a huge change, one I am not suggesting). But if you are going to have people learning at different speeds, based upon skillsets, then any bonus character improvements that come from learning ranks, also have to be balanced, and as it currently stands, tdps are not balanced at all.
>>I refuse to be told how I'm going to train by people who just want it easier.
No one is telling you how to train. Nor are the top3 or top5 suggestions really any easier. It just balances out the skillsets. I am starting to question if you are bothering to actually read... because if you are, you must have problems with comprehension.
>>I've put in the work, you haven't. Why should I suffer?
The QQ is strong with this one. Because the system isn't working right currently, so it should be fixed. It isn't about you or me. It is a game, that is really old, and some things should eventually be improved. This is one area. And you are also vastly exaggerating the impact the top3 or top5 would have upon you. "The sky is falling!" attitude is such a cop out.
Bye. But I bet you would. and would just adjust. because it wouldn't really change how anyone plays, except that you wouldn't be forced to train 18 weapons to earn as many tdps as possible. You still could if you enjoy that, and the ranks would still do their main role, which is help you use said weapon more effectively.
>>completely unfair, unneeded, and downright crazy.
The proposed top3 or top5 idea... doesn't change anything about how DR is played. Weapons would still be able to be learned. You would still use those skills to fight with those weapons, etc. The ONLY thing it changes is how tdps are earned, and it makes it completely FAIR, unlike the current system -- which double dips on the penalty by having almost twice the number of skills in weapons than any other skillset.
>>For example, what if one of my top 3-5 was crossbow and my only ranged weapon. Then changes like say, bow making, come out that affect my decision. Now I have to train up bow (personal choice I know) to pass one of those 3-5 to start gaining TDPs again?
Yes. So? the other tdps wouldn't go away. And once you pass crossbows you would then start gaining new tdps with bows. And as Armifer even said.. the main reason to train bows in that situation is because you want to use bows.. not just to gain tdps.
>>That's just one example but the unintended consequences of changing TDP gain to a system like being discussed are vast and could through the game into the dustbin of history. That's how serious I think it is.
Fear-mongering at its best and beyond ridiculous.
>>Finally, it sounds like the ones wanting this kind of change are more about "keeping up with the Jones" than about fairness.
Even Armifer is for the change. And it isn't about 'keeping up with jones' as much as it is, lets make sure that everyone has equal access to tdps. It is called game balance.
Let me break it down again for you.
top3 or top5:
-skills would still be skills. reasons for training them would still be primarily to use said skill. (or because your guild requires it)
-tdps would only be earned from the top3 or top5 in each skillset. This equalizes tdp gain across skillsets, regardless of how many skills are in each skillset. (Hint: This is called game balance. It is an important thing.)
-This allows developers to add as many skills as they want, because it wouldn't impact tdp gain.
-tdp generation, if developers decide they want to leave it as is, could still generate the same amount of tdps as they currently do. (Meaning, that if the weapons skillset currently produces xyz tdps, even if they switch it to a top3 or top5 system, it would still produce xyz tdps, you would just only gain them from 3 or 5 skills, instead of having to train every skill.)
-The Weapons skillset no matter what, shouldn't offer as many tdps as it currently does. It is broken period. Unless you are just really horribad at math and can't figure out why having almost double the skills in weapons compared to every other skillset is a bad thing, you are basically just enjoying a broken system and don't want it fixed. At least be honest about it.
>>You guys keep talking about "incentive to train everything"... I don't understand that. and the rest...
You are just talking about random stuff at this point, that has zero to do with the real conversation.
If you want to train up weapons, power to you. train them. But you should be training them because you want to use those weapons. Not because the system is broken and has double the amount of weapon skills and you are using them to gain tdps.
If this was reversed and magic or lore had 20 skills and weapons only had 10, it would be the same problem, and still wouldn't be okay because the skillsets wouldn't be balanced. If everyone learned everything at the same speed, it wouldn't matter, but that isn't how DR works (and that would be a huge change, one I am not suggesting). But if you are going to have people learning at different speeds, based upon skillsets, then any bonus character improvements that come from learning ranks, also have to be balanced, and as it currently stands, tdps are not balanced at all.
>>I refuse to be told how I'm going to train by people who just want it easier.
No one is telling you how to train. Nor are the top3 or top5 suggestions really any easier. It just balances out the skillsets. I am starting to question if you are bothering to actually read... because if you are, you must have problems with comprehension.
>>I've put in the work, you haven't. Why should I suffer?
The QQ is strong with this one. Because the system isn't working right currently, so it should be fixed. It isn't about you or me. It is a game, that is really old, and some things should eventually be improved. This is one area. And you are also vastly exaggerating the impact the top3 or top5 would have upon you. "The sky is falling!" attitude is such a cop out.
