So a 30 stone 2HE performs the same as a 30 stone SE?

Even though the 2HE will have better stats?

>So a 30 stone 2HE performs the same as a 30 stone SE?
>Even though the 2HE will have better stats?

It would swing at the same rate, yes.

And in theory, based on the way forging works, they're be approximately the same in stats, though the 2HE would have a minor edge due to it's 2-hand bonus. It would just be distributed differently.

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>And you dont even need to go to an extreme like from SE to 2HE to see it. Take a throwing club and a throwing hammer (SB and HB) and make them at 30 stones and look at the appraisals. The larger templates would be superior to similar smaller templates nearly 100% of the time if a given weight could be hit with either. Some examples would be slightly and others more drastic, but the point here is that it would take effort to find a case where that DIDNT hold true (if any exist at all).

Okay, lets take a throwing club and a throwing hammer. Weight 30, material rare metals:

LB: 00/01/09 07/05/07
HB: 00/00/11 09/06/06

Now you're right, even within the unknown 5 point ranges we work with, the hammer comes out a bit better... until you remember that throwing clubs cap at 2-3 seconds per throw and throwing hammers cap at 3-4 seconds. This means that throwing hammers have roughly 70% the speed of a throwing club.

See note 1 for more examples.

When you adjust for the relative minimum RTs of each category, you reach a roughly approximation, if you discount armor and barriers, which is a separate issue that requires whole different conversation.

Now the question becomes that if they're balanced, why bother making any changes. It's because they're balanced for end game, the point where all weapons have reached minimum RT. This would address that issue and make them balanced along the entire lifetime of the weapon, not just the end.

>Im not against a new metric for roundtimes and weapons but this particular version would need a total rebalance of weapon templates to accompany it and god help the game for all weapons that exist now that wouldnt be retroactively changed.

I can't speak for non-crafted weapons, as I pay little attention to them, but I believe crafted weapons are already fairly well balanced, as previously explained.

>And semblance of avoiding "this is best, use this" for every given weapon template type would vanish and the only place for the smaller volume templates would be to hit a weight that a larger one could not hit.

I'm not understanding how this follows.

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Note 1: More examples.

cutlass and broadsword, 44 in steel.

ME: 03/09/07 04/04/09
HE: 02/11/06 03/05/08

war club and horseman's flail, 44 in steel.

MB: 00/03/11 08/03/09
HB: 00/02/13 10/03/10

dao and broadsword, 37 stones in rare metals:

LE: 02/08/06 03/03/10
HE: 02/11/05 03/06/07

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Note 2: I haven't put and one handed vs. two handed because it becomes much more difficult to compare them as there's a lot more than differences that crop up. Higher minimum RTs, two hands required, and interference between shield and 2 handers, all of these changed the end weighting of 2 handed stats.

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>So should it be by weight within a category?

You mean almost exactly like the system we have no? :-D

I like the current setup honestly. I feel light/small weapons get the shaft hard enough as is, and this change would simply reduce what little penalty there is for large weapons.

If I'm understanding your suggestion right, then why would anyone ever use anything smaller than LE/LB weapons outside of Thieves, and Necros who have to train SE for guild reqs/abilities?

The only thing I see possibly being an issue is that it makes strength less useful and makes stamina even more important early on.

I would be in favor of increasing the strength bonus to damage to give a reason to train strength along with making all weapons always have their min RT. They're already balanced for min RT, you just don't hit it until you've got a certain amount of strength/stamina.

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>I feel light/small weapons get the shaft hard enough as is

I disagree. I think small weapons are the most underrated weapon types. I think barriers are the cause of any underperformance people are experiencing. If anything, I think "large" weapons (not 2-handers) are in a weird place because most have damage comparable to a medium edged weapon but they have the RT of a two-hander. Overall, however, I feel like all weapons are pretty well balanced against each other.

Let me see if I can do a quick BS experiment against very good plate armor, which is SE's greatest weakness... Alright, so here's 15 swings with a 36 stone HCS ME with 18 overall points of damage:

Template: Scimitar
Weight: 36 stones
Metal: HCS
Damage stats: 18 points overall
Average vitality hit per slice: 2.2%
Min slice RT: 3
Damage per RT: .73%

Template: Greatsword
Weight: 109 stones
Metal: HCS
Damage stats: 36 points overall
Average vitality hit per slice: 3.3%
Min slice RT: 4
Damage per RT: .83%

The vit numbers were pretty consistent, but this doesn't factor things like stats which are supposed to affect accuracy and damage which is why I called it a BS experiment. The slicing character had pretty even stats but his stats were relatively low.

So... 2HE does indeed do more damage and with 120 strength I'm sure there's more than a .1% difference in damage per RT against plate so why doesn't everyone just use 2HE? Well, there are other things to consider such as the limited 2HE template types. You can come close to finding a 2HE thruster, for instance, but there's no real 2HE thruster. Also, those massive damage weapons have very low balance, making accuracy noticeably worse when wielding them unless you have a surplus of ranks to back it up. And then there's the 2HE penalty when used with a shield. Strength and agility are also factors since most of us aren't 100-every-stat characters yet. Gnomes aren't going to swing a 100+ stone greatsword for a good long time.

What does SE have going for it, especially against heavy armor even though so few creatures and people actually use the heaviest armors? With HLC strength and a weapon the size of a house, 2HE is unbeatable on damage, after all. Well, for one, SE has better overall templates which means you can have SE jabbers and slicers and thrown weapons to 2HE's slicers only. SE has the most accurate thrusters, which can be paired with 1 RT jabs for character balance/position building. You can sword-and-board with a small edged weapon, and there's no shield penalty.

Large edged, on the other hand, has many of the advantages of SE, but I'm betting it does less overall damage per RT. Every other weapon type not "large" is pretty well balanced IMO. I like the idea of changing the way RT works if it means making large edged better and I'm not primarily a large edged user (fortunately). I usually use 2-handers or small weapons as primary weapons on my characters.

(double post sorry)

In addition look no further than our current swappable weapons for a built-in illustration of my point:

bastard sword
war sword
broadaxe
bar mace
half-handled riste
riste

All the swaps would have the same roundtimes under your proposal by default.