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>>>The paste from Mosk's bastie
Okay. I have a new weapon to drool over now...
In fact, I'd trade a few percentage points off my character's soul for one of those. Yeouch!
Amagaim; the player of,
Politics is supposed to be the second-oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first.
The reason you won't be seeing a lot of katanas around is because of their IG history. According to Cesiro when the first one was auctioned off, it was a collaborative effort between the Elotheans and S'kra to fight the Dragon Priests. It's a very old weapon, and I believe it has been imbued with the spirit of some warrior, or it has gained a personality over time. Maybe Magdar can tell us more, or someone who has a log of the original auction.
So the secrets of making them have been lost to time, and the only ones you will see are ones that have been auctioned off.
~Thilan
So the secrets of making them have been lost to time, and the only ones you will see are ones that have been auctioned off.
~Thilan
::glances at Mosk and drools::
whao...now THATS a nice bastard sword...who forged it? whats the weight? Is that normal metals?? wow...I like...
~Dalkin~
If its got two legs and you hear a thud...don't panic...I just killed another one.
>>>>Agonar, apparently taking an uncharacteristic trip to the north, strolls by, winks at Marlena, giggles oddly to himself, and continues his journey onward.
whao...now THATS a nice bastard sword...who forged it? whats the weight? Is that normal metals?? wow...I like...
~Dalkin~
If its got two legs and you hear a thud...don't panic...I just killed another one.
>>>>Agonar, apparently taking an uncharacteristic trip to the north, strolls by, winks at Marlena, giggles oddly to himself, and continues his journey onward.
Well lets just state some plain simple facts.
There is more than one Katana in Game.
They were from Auctions or given by an extremely powerful character or GM to someone.
Mass production would have alot of people using Katana weapons.
Since there are more than one Katana in the game but only a handfull there should be some sort of history behind it(since your limiting it to such small numbers). Who started making these, how they did it. did anyone else try to make them at a later time?
In any event, I dont think all weapons in DR have this sort of history. I could be wrong of course and there is documented somewhere where each weapon originated from and who makes them. Katar? hmmm I dont think any one particular place and history is for this weapon(In DR) and it does have quite a bit of history and ethnicity to it. (The katar originated in southern India as attested by earlier writers; as with the talwar it appears to predominate from the mid-17thc.) check out this web site its fairly nifty for this sort of thing(no guarentees on level of accuracy it has) http://weaponspage.homestead.com/hindustan.html
Personally I believe that all weapons should be allowed in the game its fantasy let it be what it is. I honestly think with the way alterations have been curtailed to not include anything that remotely makes the weapon look magical, old, racial, or anything to help you visually describe it. You would have to take out a paragraph of text to really explain what you have.
Now lets just take the whole Katana issue and lay it out like thus.
You have many different characters that want a Katana... why? who cares they want it, its a valid weapon accepted by the GMs and has been allowed in game. How does this Katana look? is it the same Katana of the Early Japan era. Someone said "I think the Katana should have no puncture damage" Someone else said "katana should be heavier than a bastard sword" There is so much that just will not be conveyed by the word Katana, because some people have a different view of the weapon. I don't even think most people can agree on how many hands it takes to use a Katana and get thier weapons mixed up. There are like four swords that generally resemble a Katana, (daito - katana), (shoto - wakizashi), sunobi tanto, the fourth one I forget but its the big old monster 2 hander. and to give you some visuals of a japanese sword here is the whole diagram of the sword lays out everything!! pretty snazzy.
http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/glossary.htm
Well anyways just thought id chirp in with information, didnt really go anywhere with it, but there it is.
Valgar
There is more than one Katana in Game.
They were from Auctions or given by an extremely powerful character or GM to someone.
Mass production would have alot of people using Katana weapons.
Since there are more than one Katana in the game but only a handfull there should be some sort of history behind it(since your limiting it to such small numbers). Who started making these, how they did it. did anyone else try to make them at a later time?
In any event, I dont think all weapons in DR have this sort of history. I could be wrong of course and there is documented somewhere where each weapon originated from and who makes them. Katar? hmmm I dont think any one particular place and history is for this weapon(In DR) and it does have quite a bit of history and ethnicity to it. (The katar originated in southern India as attested by earlier writers; as with the talwar it appears to predominate from the mid-17thc.) check out this web site its fairly nifty for this sort of thing(no guarentees on level of accuracy it has) http://weaponspage.homestead.com/hindustan.html
Personally I believe that all weapons should be allowed in the game its fantasy let it be what it is. I honestly think with the way alterations have been curtailed to not include anything that remotely makes the weapon look magical, old, racial, or anything to help you visually describe it. You would have to take out a paragraph of text to really explain what you have.
Now lets just take the whole Katana issue and lay it out like thus.
You have many different characters that want a Katana... why? who cares they want it, its a valid weapon accepted by the GMs and has been allowed in game. How does this Katana look? is it the same Katana of the Early Japan era. Someone said "I think the Katana should have no puncture damage" Someone else said "katana should be heavier than a bastard sword" There is so much that just will not be conveyed by the word Katana, because some people have a different view of the weapon. I don't even think most people can agree on how many hands it takes to use a Katana and get thier weapons mixed up. There are like four swords that generally resemble a Katana, (daito - katana), (shoto - wakizashi), sunobi tanto, the fourth one I forget but its the big old monster 2 hander. and to give you some visuals of a japanese sword here is the whole diagram of the sword lays out everything!! pretty snazzy.
http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/glossary.htm
Well anyways just thought id chirp in with information, didnt really go anywhere with it, but there it is.
Valgar
I don't get the whole problem with the name thing, why is a japanese named weapon out of character and out of genre? A very large number of in game weapons with highly odd sounding names are actual weapons from our real world, in fact almost every store bought weapon short of the telos and such with in game elven language/s'kra names are real weapons, look them up. Why is a japanese Katana out of genre where an african kaskara is not? Aesry looks a lot more like Japan then any other place looks like Africa afterall. There are lots of places where the cultures adopt certain weapons as being part of their history. It's just a name, it's a common name that people use to reflect a certain style of weapon, this is why so many named items with non english names are still allowed. In scotland a claymore was just a sword, people have come to expect a claymore as the big brave-heart 5 foot long cleave everything down weapon, but if you handed a scotsman your english made 'broadsword' he would just accept you handed him a claymore. Katana is more or less the same thing for a japanese warrior, it could be 3 feet long, it could be 5, it's a katana of some variant, you could call it a no-dachi, a dai katana or whatever, it's all just a type of katana. It resembles no type of european weapon to compare it to so calling it katana makes more sense then 'a long-hilted chisel-pointed razor-edged folded-steel sword with a gently curving blade'. I don't see any problem with japanese weapons, it doesn't mean we have to make japan and create 'samurai' and all this just because the weapon is in the game, whose to say there isn't an order of elotheans who happen to use the in-game elothean word 'to serve' and happen to wield katanas, that wouldn't be OOC in my oppinion. I personally like the idea of having kukhris and such as well, doesn't have to mean we are nepalese gurkhas.
>Mass production would have alot of people using Katana weapons.
What might be dreadfully entertaining is to introduce the damascus process to DR. <smirk> If it took thousands of pounds to produce one blade, with each one having to be perfect, well, there would probably be no great increase in the number of katanas in the world. Particularly if they ever fix tempering. There was a reason katanas were rare ... they took forever to make, just like any other damascus blade.
Although I do think it would be interesting to introduce damascus steel, and probably not too painful to code. It would be nice to have a lot more flexible and strong steel for the blasted blade breakers, particularly the LE's.
What might be dreadfully entertaining is to introduce the damascus process to DR. <smirk> If it took thousands of pounds to produce one blade, with each one having to be perfect, well, there would probably be no great increase in the number of katanas in the world. Particularly if they ever fix tempering. There was a reason katanas were rare ... they took forever to make, just like any other damascus blade.
Although I do think it would be interesting to introduce damascus steel, and probably not too painful to code. It would be nice to have a lot more flexible and strong steel for the blasted blade breakers, particularly the LE's.
What might be dreadfully entertaining is to introduce the damascus process to DR.
You glance down to see a damascened kertig-alloy claymore adorned with a twisted black ironwood hilt in your right hand and nothing in your left hand.
Giant Mosk trampled into the room! You fall over stunned!
You glance down to see a damascened kertig-alloy claymore adorned with a twisted black ironwood hilt in your right hand and nothing in your left hand.
Giant Mosk trampled into the room! You fall over stunned!
Somehow I doubt pounding and folding for a few weeks and only doing that to create the blade, is going to be part of the forging system. Although that would be a nice alternative with rare metals...to have them be more plentiful but take literal weeks to create things from them as the preparation process would be so time intensive.
I am --- Navak
I am --- Navak
>but take literal weeks to create things from them as the preparation process would be so time intensive.
Yup, that's exactly what I was thinking. Basically the ability to create alloys that are as flexible and strong as kertig/glaes through the damascening process. It would be fun to see who'd play with it, too. I mean if it took, on average, even 200 hours of IG time of a master forger to pound out the metal for a damascus blade, they certainly wouldn't be any more common than kertig/glaes. (And from what I remember, 200 hours of work for a single blade is far from unreasonable and actually quite short.)
What would be even more entertaining is to allow anyone with enough mech to pound out the 'ingot/plate' stage. This would open up the shared creation of damascus goods to lore primes along with barbarians/paladins to finish the items.
Yup, that's exactly what I was thinking. Basically the ability to create alloys that are as flexible and strong as kertig/glaes through the damascening process. It would be fun to see who'd play with it, too. I mean if it took, on average, even 200 hours of IG time of a master forger to pound out the metal for a damascus blade, they certainly wouldn't be any more common than kertig/glaes. (And from what I remember, 200 hours of work for a single blade is far from unreasonable and actually quite short.)
What would be even more entertaining is to allow anyone with enough mech to pound out the 'ingot/plate' stage. This would open up the shared creation of damascus goods to lore primes along with barbarians/paladins to finish the items.
Okay, I'm confused, which isn't a new experience for me by any stretch of the imagination.
I thought Damascene referred to the application of interlacing gold (and later copper) into steel.
Maybe it's because I work in the technology sector where 'double damascene process' refers to a copper deposition process used for inlaying copper into the insulation oxide layer.
~heroiklim
I thought Damascene referred to the application of interlacing gold (and later copper) into steel.
Maybe it's because I work in the technology sector where 'double damascene process' refers to a copper deposition process used for inlaying copper into the insulation oxide layer.
~heroiklim
Here Damascene refers to a technique similar to that. You fold over, and then pound, and then fold over and pound and fold etc. the metal. This is why katanas have wavy cresent patterns on the blade (note that imitations have this etched into them :) Not sure if the name actually comes from the city Damascus or not.
>Here Damascene refers to a technique similar to that. You fold over, and then pound, and then fold over and pound and fold etc. the metal. This is why katanas have wavy cresent patterns on the blade (note that imitations have this etched into them :) Not sure if the name actually comes from the city Damascus or not.
Thanks Ucu. I looked up a few sites on it. Seems 'Damascene' is a confusing term. I found 4 distinct definitions for it. The irony is that none of them originated in Damascus.
~Heroiklim
Thanks Ucu. I looked up a few sites on it. Seems 'Damascene' is a confusing term. I found 4 distinct definitions for it. The irony is that none of them originated in Damascus.
~Heroiklim
>I thought Damascene referred to the application of interlacing gold (and later copper) into steel.
That's a current version. Originally referent to steel produced in Damascus (although yes, it may well be apocryphal, but Tyrian purple really did come from Tyre, so I have hope) by taking one softer steel and one harder steel. Pound them together. Fold. Pound. Fold. Pound. Typical damascus blades will have 200 or more folds. Top quality blades will have far, far more. It is an extremely time intensive method, however it also produces very strong blades with tremendous flexibility ... which was the true strength of the katana. Yes, they were frightfully sharp, but even more, they also had astonishing flexibility for their hardness, which you can't get without the damascus process. Single steel blades just don't have that combination.
You see this now with titanium blades. They're hard, they're sharp, they're awful if you actually want to kill something with them. They don't have the heft but even more, they're too hard. They don't give, which means they're incredibly easy to knock out of someone's hands, they'll bind on anything and while they'll cut on pure edge, there's nothing more.
There are countless tricks to actually swinging a real blade. Many of them are dependent on the give and heft of the blade. Try it sometime, if you haven't. Its a real trip to actually feel what these weapons are like to swing and maneuver around. When you swing a real blade, there's a particular snap to the wrists that depends on the flexibility of the blade along its entire length to drive the edge through the target. If you've ever seen (or been) a pro cook chopping up animals of any kind you know the trick.
That's a current version. Originally referent to steel produced in Damascus (although yes, it may well be apocryphal, but Tyrian purple really did come from Tyre, so I have hope) by taking one softer steel and one harder steel. Pound them together. Fold. Pound. Fold. Pound. Typical damascus blades will have 200 or more folds. Top quality blades will have far, far more. It is an extremely time intensive method, however it also produces very strong blades with tremendous flexibility ... which was the true strength of the katana. Yes, they were frightfully sharp, but even more, they also had astonishing flexibility for their hardness, which you can't get without the damascus process. Single steel blades just don't have that combination.
You see this now with titanium blades. They're hard, they're sharp, they're awful if you actually want to kill something with them. They don't have the heft but even more, they're too hard. They don't give, which means they're incredibly easy to knock out of someone's hands, they'll bind on anything and while they'll cut on pure edge, there's nothing more.
There are countless tricks to actually swinging a real blade. Many of them are dependent on the give and heft of the blade. Try it sometime, if you haven't. Its a real trip to actually feel what these weapons are like to swing and maneuver around. When you swing a real blade, there's a particular snap to the wrists that depends on the flexibility of the blade along its entire length to drive the edge through the target. If you've ever seen (or been) a pro cook chopping up animals of any kind you know the trick.
I swear, why is there such a ridiculous romantic notions about a katana? It's a sharp damascened weapon, about three feet long, meant to be used on unarmored or lightly armored opponents. There's no magic or secret forging process involved in folding steel, nor does it take that long, and there is a finite number of possible folds beyond which you are accomplishing nothing at best, and creating imperfections in the blade at worst. Seriously. If you could fold the metal perfectly, it would only take around 25 folds to accomplish this (since the thickness of the individual folds is on the level of angstroms), and most real katanas were not folded even that many times.
Seriously. Reality check. If you want to spout off 'facts', it helps if you bother to look into them first, instead of just going by what you see in Kill Bill or Highlander.
Orpheus: "You've been powering this machine with a forsaken child?"
Venture: "What? It's not like I used the whole thing."
Seriously. Reality check. If you want to spout off 'facts', it helps if you bother to look into them first, instead of just going by what you see in Kill Bill or Highlander.
Orpheus: "You've been powering this machine with a forsaken child?"
Venture: "What? It's not like I used the whole thing."
I'd like katanas in the game, afterall they're great weapons. But personally I'd also like a few more japanese items too. Like the smaller swords, Wakazashi and Tanto. I'd also like to see some clothing like Hakama's. However, I worry that we'd then have people wanting martial arts too and it's scale out of control.
The wavy line on a katana (Hamon) is made from covering the blade with clay. This also serves to make the blade cool at different rates cause an extremely hard edge (Ha) but a more flexible back (Mune). This is what makes Katana's so durable. Another reason why Katana's were so well made was that iron and iron ore were much rarer in Japan than compared to Europe. In europe, almost anyone could get enough iron to make a blade. Hence the high number and low quality of blades. Most blades wouldn't last more than a couple of battles or duels. Also, in Japan, owning a Katana was illeagal unless you were a Samurai, which was almost a noble position itself.
I've pasted some forging details from a website below:-
How a sword is made:
Japanese swords are manufactured by heating the blade and folding a steel billet several times, then hammering to form a laminate, which is then beaten out into the final shape. It is hardened by a unique method of heat treatment. The blade is first coated with a slurry of clay which is then partially removed along the cutting edge. When dried the whole is heated red and quenched in cold water. This produces a resilient body able to withstand the shock of violent combat and a cutting edge of hard steel which can be polished razor sharp. When a blade is polished a grain formed by the folding process becomes visible. The crystalline structure of the hardened edge appears as a whitish line, the hamon (`badge? of the blade). The various hues and patterns within the hamon are described using terms derived from nature.
The polishing process:
The polishing process is no less important than the original manufacturing process. This often involves the use of more than twenty grades of stone, from the coarsest down to the finest. It is the unique nature of the Japanese polish that it reveals all the varied textures in the blade. Above all the polisher ensures that the lines of the curved blade are smooth and continuous and that the angles of the planes are clearly defined. The polisher produces a completely even surface, which not only renders the textures of the blade clearly visible but also helps preserve it against corrosion. The final stages of polishing involve the use of various powders, including stone dust and iron oxides. These processes are intended to produce a surface that reveals microscopic variations in both grain contour and crystalline formations.
Vhad - Player of
The wavy line on a katana (Hamon) is made from covering the blade with clay. This also serves to make the blade cool at different rates cause an extremely hard edge (Ha) but a more flexible back (Mune). This is what makes Katana's so durable. Another reason why Katana's were so well made was that iron and iron ore were much rarer in Japan than compared to Europe. In europe, almost anyone could get enough iron to make a blade. Hence the high number and low quality of blades. Most blades wouldn't last more than a couple of battles or duels. Also, in Japan, owning a Katana was illeagal unless you were a Samurai, which was almost a noble position itself.
I've pasted some forging details from a website below:-
How a sword is made:
Japanese swords are manufactured by heating the blade and folding a steel billet several times, then hammering to form a laminate, which is then beaten out into the final shape. It is hardened by a unique method of heat treatment. The blade is first coated with a slurry of clay which is then partially removed along the cutting edge. When dried the whole is heated red and quenched in cold water. This produces a resilient body able to withstand the shock of violent combat and a cutting edge of hard steel which can be polished razor sharp. When a blade is polished a grain formed by the folding process becomes visible. The crystalline structure of the hardened edge appears as a whitish line, the hamon (`badge? of the blade). The various hues and patterns within the hamon are described using terms derived from nature.
The polishing process:
The polishing process is no less important than the original manufacturing process. This often involves the use of more than twenty grades of stone, from the coarsest down to the finest. It is the unique nature of the Japanese polish that it reveals all the varied textures in the blade. Above all the polisher ensures that the lines of the curved blade are smooth and continuous and that the angles of the planes are clearly defined. The polisher produces a completely even surface, which not only renders the textures of the blade clearly visible but also helps preserve it against corrosion. The final stages of polishing involve the use of various powders, including stone dust and iron oxides. These processes are intended to produce a surface that reveals microscopic variations in both grain contour and crystalline formations.
Vhad - Player of
A common misconception. Katanas were not particularily durable, nor were they 'great weapons' - they were tools of warfare created and adapted for their location and period, which is to say, sharp cutting blades intended for mostly unarmored and lightly armored opponents. Being a lightweight cutting weapon, it is unlikely that a katana would be capable of inflicting injury on an opponent armored with something sturdier than laquered bamboo.
Again, feel free to continue distributing the myth of the masterfully crafted japanese weaponry. Just keep in mind that the katana-as-superweapon IS a myth - a romanticization popularized by Hollywood. Much like ninja. And pirates.
Orpheus: "You've been powering this machine with a forsaken child?"
Venture: "What? It's not like I used the whole thing."
Again, feel free to continue distributing the myth of the masterfully crafted japanese weaponry. Just keep in mind that the katana-as-superweapon IS a myth - a romanticization popularized by Hollywood. Much like ninja. And pirates.
Orpheus: "You've been powering this machine with a forsaken child?"
Venture: "What? It's not like I used the whole thing."
A katana is a time involving process, but it is not a process of years by far, more like a process of weeks with a good bit of that time being the actual polishing of the weapon which is a very complex art in itself. If it took years then the symbol of the samurai would be the yari spear because no one would of hardly had a katana, let alone a wakisashi to go with it. I have also read before that there is some belief that the best japanese swords were made of special steel mixes using 'rare japanese ore' or some such thing when the truth is around the 1500s or so Japanese swordsmith were proud to use imported steel from india(wootz steel I think, this was more like damascus steel then what the japanese were actually using) and in fact they would proudly mark that they used the indian steel on the tang of their weapon to showcase the fact. Another interesting tidbit on katanas, in function modern swords made today by master swordsmiths in Japan are actually superior quality blades given the wealth of metallurgical knowledge they have access to in these modern times, people tend to think the best swords ever made are those collector pieces from the 1400s that bring in $100,000. Today obtaining a real hand made japanese katana is a matter of years(most sources seem to say about 18 months actually), but that is because the people who make them have long waiting lists and because they are only allowed by law to make 2 long swords(daitos/katanas) per month. This time period being chosen because they watched a well known meticulous but somewhat SLOW swordsmith work and this was roughly how many he could produce in a month so again it's a process of weeks at best, not years by any stretch. Now what does take years to make are those longbows they used. Those guys usually put away the wood that their apprentices would be making 30 years in advance as they were using the wood their former masters had treated and stored away for them.
Olesh samurais that went to battle were not lightly armored. They were in fact very heavily armored. You have been watching to much tv my friend. Furthermore the second invasion of Japan by the mongols " you know the country that conquered 3/4's of the known world at that time" although both attempted invasions of the mongols suffered from the miracle winds "tsunamai i think?" in the second invasion a few thousands mongol troops actually made it to shore and were decimated by the samurai. Due largely to the fact that the japenese troops "mainly the samurai" were surperiorly trained and armed.
Laquered bamboo, despite appearances, is not 'heavily armored'. I fail to see how you could imagine it protecting as well as, say, fully articulated plate mail.
Again, weapons and armor go hand in hand. When the best protection generally available is treated wood, weapons naturally tend towards the sharp and lightweight. This is compared to the chain mail and the (expensive, rare) articulated plate mail of europe, which would resist the flimsy cutting edges of the katana. European weaponry (the broadsword, mace, flail, etc.) tend to be heavier, more durable, with less of an edge. Broadswords did not cut through an armored opponent - they bludgeoned him.
Much like in medieval europe, in feudal japan battles were largely fought with one's own peasants armed with spears. The samurai, as a noble class, did not generally get into direct conflict outside of duels - much like european knights. When you go to war against your neighbor, the people who do the fighting and the dying are your peasants. Certainly, no army was ever fielded consisting of tens of thousands of samurai.
Orpheus: "You've been powering this machine with a forsaken child?"
Venture: "What? It's not like I used the whole thing."
Again, weapons and armor go hand in hand. When the best protection generally available is treated wood, weapons naturally tend towards the sharp and lightweight. This is compared to the chain mail and the (expensive, rare) articulated plate mail of europe, which would resist the flimsy cutting edges of the katana. European weaponry (the broadsword, mace, flail, etc.) tend to be heavier, more durable, with less of an edge. Broadswords did not cut through an armored opponent - they bludgeoned him.
Much like in medieval europe, in feudal japan battles were largely fought with one's own peasants armed with spears. The samurai, as a noble class, did not generally get into direct conflict outside of duels - much like european knights. When you go to war against your neighbor, the people who do the fighting and the dying are your peasants. Certainly, no army was ever fielded consisting of tens of thousands of samurai.
Orpheus: "You've been powering this machine with a forsaken child?"
Venture: "What? It's not like I used the whole thing."
where you getting this info from? They wore heavy suits of leather armor that were MAYBE reinforced with wood. The wood additions were more for projectile protection than anything else LOL and your wrong about samuria not participating in battles.. Bushido dictating that a samuria warrior fight or be dishonored. They didnt sit idlely by and watch the peasants fight and why would they when if they lost a battle they would be required to either commit sepaku "suicide" or swear their loyalty to a new lord "another dishonor". Often times sepaku was the only choice for a samuria after suffering a defeat because living with dishonor was far worse than death for a samurai. Answer my previous question though where you getting this info from?
Well, I could just say it's from a japanese history course, but to be honest the text doesn't go into too much detail about the armor and weaponry. I have to go to the library to find books with detailed, in depth descriptions of weaponry and armor.
Very fascinating, though, especially studied side-by-side with european weapons and armor. The cultural aspects are a different matter entirely - feudal japan mirrors feudal europe in some ways, and is vastly different in many others. I found it necessary to study the language to understand aspects of the culture that are simply untranslatable. I've run into a similar problem with ancient China, which is in my opinion a much more subtle and interesting culture than feudal Japan.
I'm curious as to where you're getting your ideas from. Did you watch that Tom Cruise movie seven times or something? It's clear that the opinions you are posting could benefit from some in depth study in the matter.
If you wish to continue this discussion, please do so via e-mail to my play.net address, as this is very off topic for the folder and I will ignore further replies here without reading them.
Orpheus: "You've been powering this machine with a forsaken child?"
Venture: "What? It's not like I used the whole thing."
Very fascinating, though, especially studied side-by-side with european weapons and armor. The cultural aspects are a different matter entirely - feudal japan mirrors feudal europe in some ways, and is vastly different in many others. I found it necessary to study the language to understand aspects of the culture that are simply untranslatable. I've run into a similar problem with ancient China, which is in my opinion a much more subtle and interesting culture than feudal Japan.
I'm curious as to where you're getting your ideas from. Did you watch that Tom Cruise movie seven times or something? It's clear that the opinions you are posting could benefit from some in depth study in the matter.
If you wish to continue this discussion, please do so via e-mail to my play.net address, as this is very off topic for the folder and I will ignore further replies here without reading them.
Orpheus: "You've been powering this machine with a forsaken child?"
Venture: "What? It's not like I used the whole thing."
>>Answer my previous question though where you getting this info from?
From non-anime sources? Leather is light armor. Even if reinforced with wood, it holds NO candle to metal armors. Second, while bushido was the 'idealized' method, very, very, few ever commited sepuku. The caste system in Japan was no different from the one is, say, concurrent france, where virtue was promoted and then the knights when to the whorehouse after mass.
From non-anime sources? Leather is light armor. Even if reinforced with wood, it holds NO candle to metal armors. Second, while bushido was the 'idealized' method, very, very, few ever commited sepuku. The caste system in Japan was no different from the one is, say, concurrent france, where virtue was promoted and then the knights when to the whorehouse after mass.
Alright guys, either jump back to two-handed weapons or take discussion of RL weapon/armor making processes to the proper folder over in Outside Elanthia. I've included a link because I'm just that nice :).
Thanks,
Wixs
The proper folder:
http://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=20&category=24&topic=22
With any further questions, feel free to contact me (Mod-Wixs@play.net), Senior Board Monitor Annwyl (DR-Annwyl@play.net), or Message Board Supervisor Cecco (DR-Cecco@play.net).
Thanks,
Wixs
The proper folder:
http://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=20&category=24&topic=22
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>What might be dreadfully entertaining is to introduce the damascus process to DR. <smirk> If it took thousands of pounds to produce one blade, with each one having to be perfect, well, there would probably be no great increase in the number of katanas in the world. Particularly if they ever fix tempering. There was a reason katanas were rare ... they took forever to make, just like any other damascus blade.
The thing is those hundred or thousand layer doesn't take that many fold. If I seem to remember my reading right too many layer make a lousy weapon, so at most weaponsmith will fold are 7-10 time.
Raishi, Player of
The different between bravery and stupidity are success and failure.
The thing is those hundred or thousand layer doesn't take that many fold. If I seem to remember my reading right too many layer make a lousy weapon, so at most weaponsmith will fold are 7-10 time.
Raishi, Player of
The different between bravery and stupidity are success and failure.
>It takes 17 folds to get 131072 layers. Ten folds will give you just over a thousand layers.
Yup, I know why I said most smith only do like 7-10 fold, some not even that. That why I don't get why everyone think katana are all powerful weapon of the gods that take years to make by a mastersmith. I just don't get why ratinal americans think that Katana are the end all of all sword. Katana are good at what it do, cutting down unarmor or light armor oponent, but blade to blade it plain stink.
Raishi, Player of
The different between bravery and stupidity are success and failure.
Yup, I know why I said most smith only do like 7-10 fold, some not even that. That why I don't get why everyone think katana are all powerful weapon of the gods that take years to make by a mastersmith. I just don't get why ratinal americans think that Katana are the end all of all sword. Katana are good at what it do, cutting down unarmor or light armor oponent, but blade to blade it plain stink.
Raishi, Player of
The different between bravery and stupidity are success and failure.
>Ten folds will give you just over a thousand layers.
Actually, no, because you don't cut and then pound so its not 2 to the n layers. <shrug> Lets see if I can ascii this
First pound
*********
###########
Second pound
#####\
***\######
**/***
############
Third pound
#####\
***\####
#####\**
##########
********
##########
And so on. This is all predicate on getting those center layers to meld completely and the crystals in the metal to behave and all end up pointing the right way. That's why forged blades are so much stronger than cast. It is also why only master or very high level journeymen can produce decent damascus steel. It isn't trivial getting a true weld in those center layers without pounding through the others. Try it some time. Its hard enough to do with puff pastry, much less steel. <g>
Although, actually, there is another great blade that is made from damascus steel ... the scimitar. <g> Yup, the generic DR scim was, in the real word, a damascus steel blade with tremendous flexibity and strength. It was just a cavalry blade instead of a footman's. But, like the katana, it was designed to go up against lightly armored opponents and to be a slashing weapon, rather than a bludgeoning or thrusting weapon.
I've always thought it would be fascinating to bring some of the scimitar variants into DR, such as the massive two handed version used for cutting off various body parts under Shari'a or the lighter ones more closely related to sabres, or the heavy chopping versions used by some tribes or ...
Yes, there were and are two handed scimitars as well as swappable ones, many scims were/are by their balance, actually. I'd love to have one of the beheading scimitars. Those things were and are wicked. (Yes, they are still in use in some countries.) Talk about suitability for strength, if lousy balance, and massive impact to go along with some decent cutting ability.
Actually, no, because you don't cut and then pound so its not 2 to the n layers. <shrug> Lets see if I can ascii this
First pound
*********
###########
Second pound
#####\
***\######
**/***
############
Third pound
#####\
***\####
#####\**
##########
********
##########
And so on. This is all predicate on getting those center layers to meld completely and the crystals in the metal to behave and all end up pointing the right way. That's why forged blades are so much stronger than cast. It is also why only master or very high level journeymen can produce decent damascus steel. It isn't trivial getting a true weld in those center layers without pounding through the others. Try it some time. Its hard enough to do with puff pastry, much less steel. <g>
Although, actually, there is another great blade that is made from damascus steel ... the scimitar. <g> Yup, the generic DR scim was, in the real word, a damascus steel blade with tremendous flexibity and strength. It was just a cavalry blade instead of a footman's. But, like the katana, it was designed to go up against lightly armored opponents and to be a slashing weapon, rather than a bludgeoning or thrusting weapon.
I've always thought it would be fascinating to bring some of the scimitar variants into DR, such as the massive two handed version used for cutting off various body parts under Shari'a or the lighter ones more closely related to sabres, or the heavy chopping versions used by some tribes or ...
Yes, there were and are two handed scimitars as well as swappable ones, many scims were/are by their balance, actually. I'd love to have one of the beheading scimitars. Those things were and are wicked. (Yes, they are still in use in some countries.) Talk about suitability for strength, if lousy balance, and massive impact to go along with some decent cutting ability.
