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:::Trying to steer the subject a bit more back on topic so it doesn't get booted outa the forum:::
Yes, we know that in real life what Katanas are and suited for slashing attacks and little sword play (hence the infamous holding the blade up over the head while angled down the body, or else when put against Europeon swords they snapped like twigs). But we can obviously see that DR katanas are, generally, not following the same rules.
One is how the hell can a katana have impact damage. Two, they have no piercing damage. Three, they are heavier then claymores, four they can be one handed (which is something that movies portray, and actual experience doesn't).
So these...real life techniques and methods are a little off. Basically what we should be tlaking about is just why we want/don't want katanas in the game, and what kinda stats they have here. Personally I would love them, I want one cause it follows my character sketch. I agree also I wouldn't mind having a few other items like wakazashi and tanto (I coulda sworn that one was already around). Hakama and kekogi also would be on my list.... not because I wanta be a fanboy and act like a samurai, but because its something I own and use, and they truelly are good fighting clothes.
I would like more katanas in the game. Non-cambrinth, no ornamental, all ok. Just another blade that would be cool to have.
PS> Ringlets where also used for armor in feudal Japan and whoever said it nailed it on the head by saying that not all Katanas are folded over insane ammounts of times.
I was born once as a dying races last resort, I was strong.
I was born again as a weapon against friends, I was stronger.
I am now born from the dying wishes of my loved ones, and I'm pissed.
>>Just another blade that would be cool to have.
They're bastard swords with upgraded templates. So you still just want the name, really. Which's understandable, I suppose. But really, whoever said they could simply code up a weapon which was, to all looks, a katana, but named 'billyjobobo's metal beat stick' in whatever twisted sylable language they feel like, had the best idea.
They're bastard swords with upgraded templates. So you still just want the name, really. Which's understandable, I suppose. But really, whoever said they could simply code up a weapon which was, to all looks, a katana, but named 'billyjobobo's metal beat stick' in whatever twisted sylable language they feel like, had the best idea.
>>although both attempted invasions of the mongols suffered from the miracle winds "tsunamai i think?"
Kamikaze. It's the namesake of the WWII fighter pilots who committed suicide by crashing their planes full of fuel into American ships, since they were led to believe they were protecting Japan like the original 'divine winds' from the barbarian invaders.
~Thilan
Kamikaze. It's the namesake of the WWII fighter pilots who committed suicide by crashing their planes full of fuel into American ships, since they were led to believe they were protecting Japan like the original 'divine winds' from the barbarian invaders.
~Thilan
Personally, I would suggest bastard swords ground for balance. At 28 stones they can get up to just under well balanced, with current skills I've seen, which is nice for parry whereas a claymore does more damage it has the balance of a barn. If it hits it can hurt but it's very unwieldy and most other 2HE are in a similar boat.
I am --- Navak
I am --- Navak
my understanding of weaponary is this: the european weapons such as longswords and broadswords were made to parry with. they were thick and heavy to knock aside shields and swords and bash armor in. the samarai armor and weaponary was a little different. the swords were not made parry. he would only draw the sword if he intended to kill, and that one slice would be aimed at the vulnarable spots such as the back of the knees or in the armpit. samarai ways of fighting as quick and to the point. Most european type fighting was longer becuase of the armor and the heavy swords were geared toward that. thats my knowledge of it.
Insult:
A snow goblin glances at you. The creature then proceeds to grunt and gesticulate at you in an intricate manner that looks to be some sort of Goblinesque insult, apparently, something regarding your mother and a gargoyle.
Insult:
A snow goblin glances at you. The creature then proceeds to grunt and gesticulate at you in an intricate manner that looks to be some sort of Goblinesque insult, apparently, something regarding your mother and a gargoyle.
So theoretically...katanas would be decent weapons against regular moderm people because we don't wear armor. That doesn't include the guy wearing modern body-armor, though, who'd just shrug off the blow and either beat you down with his baton or just plug you with his gun.
But the recent elevation of all things Asian to near-mythical levels makes everyone want this uber-L33T weapon so they can be the dual katana-wielding Drizzt-copying anime-haired super elf. Just like you see in every other game.
So I say no katanas in DR. Not because more weapons aren't cool, but because the element that wants them would be a negative influence on the environment as a whole.
If we must have katanas, make them reflect real-life weapons (in as much as DR sticks to realism in general) and not the ridiculous weapons portrayed in movies/tv. A weapon effective only against lightly armored targets might be useful, perhaps with a very low maximum construction, but not worth the negative influence of calling them "katanas".
Arcelebor
"Back off, man. I'm a scientist."
But the recent elevation of all things Asian to near-mythical levels makes everyone want this uber-L33T weapon so they can be the dual katana-wielding Drizzt-copying anime-haired super elf. Just like you see in every other game.
So I say no katanas in DR. Not because more weapons aren't cool, but because the element that wants them would be a negative influence on the environment as a whole.
If we must have katanas, make them reflect real-life weapons (in as much as DR sticks to realism in general) and not the ridiculous weapons portrayed in movies/tv. A weapon effective only against lightly armored targets might be useful, perhaps with a very low maximum construction, but not worth the negative influence of calling them "katanas".
Arcelebor
"Back off, man. I'm a scientist."
>That doesn't include the guy wearing modern body-armor,
Nope. Modern body armor doesn't protect against blades. You can stab or cut someone right through kevlar as if it were, well, very thick canvas. All it does is spread out the impact of a bullet so that it doesn't enter the body. (Getting shot wearing the stuff is not fun and chances are you will have some cracked, if not broken ribs.) It is actually pretty much the equivalent of the laquered bamboo and leather armor used in Asia, at least where primitive weaponry is concerned.
>But the recent elevation of all things Asian to near-mythical levels makes everyone want this uber-L33T weapon so they can be the dual katana-wielding Drizzt-copying anime-haired super elf.
Yeah, well, that is why I look at bringing in weapons named katanas with the same doubt. Sharp blades and metal armor don't mix. Although I look at scimitars the same way, since they were not designed to be used against heavily armed opponents either.
>A weapon effective only against lightly armored targets might be useful, perhaps with a very low maximum construction
That would be about the only way to do it. The thing is that a real sword fight is nothing like DR or any other game, including fencing. That is what most people forget. A real sword fight usually consists of one strike and that a killing blow. Fencing, DR, D&D, novels almost always stretch it out to keep up the pretense.
Particularly fights with unarmored/lightly armored opponents and very sharp two-handed weapons tend to be one shot kills. I'm rather glad we don't have this situation in DR, because it would be quite, um, dull, but it would be realistic.
Nope. Modern body armor doesn't protect against blades. You can stab or cut someone right through kevlar as if it were, well, very thick canvas. All it does is spread out the impact of a bullet so that it doesn't enter the body. (Getting shot wearing the stuff is not fun and chances are you will have some cracked, if not broken ribs.) It is actually pretty much the equivalent of the laquered bamboo and leather armor used in Asia, at least where primitive weaponry is concerned.
>But the recent elevation of all things Asian to near-mythical levels makes everyone want this uber-L33T weapon so they can be the dual katana-wielding Drizzt-copying anime-haired super elf.
Yeah, well, that is why I look at bringing in weapons named katanas with the same doubt. Sharp blades and metal armor don't mix. Although I look at scimitars the same way, since they were not designed to be used against heavily armed opponents either.
>A weapon effective only against lightly armored targets might be useful, perhaps with a very low maximum construction
That would be about the only way to do it. The thing is that a real sword fight is nothing like DR or any other game, including fencing. That is what most people forget. A real sword fight usually consists of one strike and that a killing blow. Fencing, DR, D&D, novels almost always stretch it out to keep up the pretense.
Particularly fights with unarmored/lightly armored opponents and very sharp two-handed weapons tend to be one shot kills. I'm rather glad we don't have this situation in DR, because it would be quite, um, dull, but it would be realistic.
>>Nope. Modern body armor doesn't protect against blades. You can stab or cut someone right through kevlar as if it were, well, very thick canvas. All it does is spread out the impact of a bullet so that it doesn't enter the body. (Getting shot wearing the stuff is not fun and chances are you will have some cracked, if not broken ribs.)
Actually, some of it does. There's bullet proof vests, knife proof vests, and bullet and knife proof vests. Most jails have their correctional officers wear either just knife proof or bullet and knife proof body armor since a prisoner is about a million and a half times more likely to make or get ahold of a shank than to be able to smuggle a gun into the jail.
"Their lust for gold is immense, their love of drink boundless. Barbarians are without restraint...Although generally they are considered good-looking." -Herwig Wolfram
Actually, some of it does. There's bullet proof vests, knife proof vests, and bullet and knife proof vests. Most jails have their correctional officers wear either just knife proof or bullet and knife proof body armor since a prisoner is about a million and a half times more likely to make or get ahold of a shank than to be able to smuggle a gun into the jail.
"Their lust for gold is immense, their love of drink boundless. Barbarians are without restraint...Although generally they are considered good-looking." -Herwig Wolfram
<<The thing is that a real sword fight is nothing like DR or any other game, including fencing.
All types of fighting. Kenjutsu really is as you say...no sword play in it. When using a katana its basically "make a fatal hit in one strike with trying not to dye yourself."
Broadswords and the type are a bit weightier and involve tactics for knocking off shields and swords, but the attack again are generally down to business.
But for the fencing aspects, compared to other styles its play. Although a gentlemans sport, parry and sword play do involve a great portion of it, particularlly in foil and epee, not so much in sabre. Granted your not gonna be swinging across chandeliers, and doing 20 minute movie fights, but swordplay is still an act involved. Personally with epee rapiers, I like binding blades (escpecially 50" Del10's) and stepping in with a dagger off-hand. Quick yes, byt swordplay and more tactics then just attacking are involved.
But in DR settings where it comes to parrying clubs and two handed weapons with rapiers and the sorts...its not gonna happen. Thats why getting so obsessive and saying katanas should only work on light armor...is kinda a moot point.
The only real significant problem that anyone has mentioned about this all is having a few guys act like anime/ninja fanboys. Granted I don't think it would happen any more then it already does (you thieves know who you are). The audience of DR compared to most games, if you haven't noticed, is alot more mature. The same aspect though applies. Unless your Mosk of course cause he's a special case, you could just as easily dress up and in a kilt and wave your claymore around and speak with your bad Gimli accent while playing your pipes.
Brookie
TAMU - Archery
TAMU - Fencing
- Weapon - Sabre
TAMU - Kendo Club
SCA - Shadowlands Shire
- Weapon - Epee and Dagger offhand.
All types of fighting. Kenjutsu really is as you say...no sword play in it. When using a katana its basically "make a fatal hit in one strike with trying not to dye yourself."
Broadswords and the type are a bit weightier and involve tactics for knocking off shields and swords, but the attack again are generally down to business.
But for the fencing aspects, compared to other styles its play. Although a gentlemans sport, parry and sword play do involve a great portion of it, particularlly in foil and epee, not so much in sabre. Granted your not gonna be swinging across chandeliers, and doing 20 minute movie fights, but swordplay is still an act involved. Personally with epee rapiers, I like binding blades (escpecially 50" Del10's) and stepping in with a dagger off-hand. Quick yes, byt swordplay and more tactics then just attacking are involved.
But in DR settings where it comes to parrying clubs and two handed weapons with rapiers and the sorts...its not gonna happen. Thats why getting so obsessive and saying katanas should only work on light armor...is kinda a moot point.
The only real significant problem that anyone has mentioned about this all is having a few guys act like anime/ninja fanboys. Granted I don't think it would happen any more then it already does (you thieves know who you are). The audience of DR compared to most games, if you haven't noticed, is alot more mature. The same aspect though applies. Unless your Mosk of course cause he's a special case, you could just as easily dress up and in a kilt and wave your claymore around and speak with your bad Gimli accent while playing your pipes.
Brookie
TAMU - Archery
TAMU - Fencing
- Weapon - Sabre
TAMU - Kendo Club
SCA - Shadowlands Shire
- Weapon - Epee and Dagger offhand.
Unless your Mosk of course cause he's a special case, you could just as easily dress up and in a kilt and wave your claymore around and speak with your bad Gimli accent while playing your pipes.
LOL Since when have I talked like Gimli? I'm not even a dwarf and don't even train anything musical:P
Giant Mosk trampled into the room! You fall over stunned!
LOL Since when have I talked like Gimli? I'm not even a dwarf and don't even train anything musical:P
Giant Mosk trampled into the room! You fall over stunned!
>>LOL Since when have I talked like Gimli? I'm not even a dwarf and don't even train anything musical:P
You do now. You'll of course need to trade in your claymore for an axe. Bring it to me and I'll take care of that. Now quit your yappin' and go kill some orcs, laddy.
"Their lust for gold is immense, their love of drink boundless. Barbarians are without restraint...Although generally they are considered good-looking." -Herwig Wolfram
You do now. You'll of course need to trade in your claymore for an axe. Bring it to me and I'll take care of that. Now quit your yappin' and go kill some orcs, laddy.
"Their lust for gold is immense, their love of drink boundless. Barbarians are without restraint...Although generally they are considered good-looking." -Herwig Wolfram
Frankly, I think the points have been, up to this point, that the katana is a cultural irrelevancy to DR's climate. It is much like introducing a gun, since the aspects which lead up TO the weapon are not present, point in fact they are completely opposite to, the aspects which lead to the creation and use of such highly damascened weapons. To continue to say 'oh, people just don't want it because they're afraid of ninja/anime cliches' is to ignore most of the discussion which has preceeded this. And for the record, no, the fanbase really isn't more mature. It's just that there are stringent guidlines on what is and is not permissable, and they're adhered to. If there weren't, this'd be just another EQ.
We have watered-steel weapons, pattern-welded weapons(yeah I know this is different but it's a similary fold-it-over a bunch concept), and damascened weapons so I'd say we aren't behind the quality that goes into making a katana. Watered-steel is much like wootz steel which was an indian steel that japanese sword makers prized when making swords. They are not more highly damascened then an average middle-eastern scimitar was anyhow. You can't bend a katana over the way you can a high quality damascus steel weapon. That wavy look to the hamon of a katana is not a natural aspect of it's forging process, it has to be polished correctly to be revealed and many would be collectors have passed over quality blades assuming that the lack of hamon meant it was not an antique blade. Not to start up the argument though, but if it was done in the past then whose to say the technique has been forgotten. It's as if some people treat katanas like they don't exist already, or that the ones in the game currently are just someones bad highly-illegal alterations of something. I'm not saying they should be all over the place or anything, just saying I just don't see them not fitting in. I would like to have one personally, don't think I would use it much but would look great on my weapons racks next to all the other unusual weapons I collect.
<<Frankly, I think the points have been, up to this point, that the katana is a cultural irrelevancy to DR's climate. It is much like introducing a gun, since the aspects which lead up TO the weapon are not present, point in fact they are completely opposite to,
Cept for the fact that, ya know, DR is a medieval fantasy game and swords are a medieval weapon and guns...aren't.
And cultural irrelevancy? How bout oragami, throwing spikes, and 5 pointed throwing stars? Nothing irrelevent about it. Even if its the process that the complaint is in, so what? Do you think forging weapons in DR is just like real life forging? If so, I can tell you that your horribly wrong. But the process of folding a blade is not difficult and can be done in a forge.
Navak kinda nailed it on the head really. The only real reason alot of people want katanas is more diversity. I fully agree on that for one. I'de rather not have nothing but shortswords, scimitars, broadswords, and two-handed swords in the game. Theres reasons why we get more junk then those choices...cause people want diversity.
I was born once as a dying races last resort, I was strong.
I was born again as a weapon against friends, I was stronger.
I am now born from the dying wishes of my loved ones, and I'm pissed.
Cept for the fact that, ya know, DR is a medieval fantasy game and swords are a medieval weapon and guns...aren't.
And cultural irrelevancy? How bout oragami, throwing spikes, and 5 pointed throwing stars? Nothing irrelevent about it. Even if its the process that the complaint is in, so what? Do you think forging weapons in DR is just like real life forging? If so, I can tell you that your horribly wrong. But the process of folding a blade is not difficult and can be done in a forge.
Navak kinda nailed it on the head really. The only real reason alot of people want katanas is more diversity. I fully agree on that for one. I'de rather not have nothing but shortswords, scimitars, broadswords, and two-handed swords in the game. Theres reasons why we get more junk then those choices...cause people want diversity.
I was born once as a dying races last resort, I was strong.
I was born again as a weapon against friends, I was stronger.
I am now born from the dying wishes of my loved ones, and I'm pissed.
How much do you want to bet that if katanas were introduced in a method that anyone who wanted one could reasonably get one (20 plat or less), that everyone and their duck would be walking around with one?
Then where will your diversity be?
Orpheus: "You've been powering this machine with a forsaken child?"
Venture: "What? It's not like I used the whole thing."
Then where will your diversity be?
Orpheus: "You've been powering this machine with a forsaken child?"
Venture: "What? It's not like I used the whole thing."
Kamikaze. It's the namesake of the WWII fighter pilots who committed suicide by crashing their planes full of fuel into American ships, since they were led to believe they were protecting Japan like the original 'divine winds' from the barbarian invaders.
~Thilan
Just for any of you who are history/war interested.. the Japaneese also had Kamikaze Subs, although I honestly can't remember the name they used for them.. the subs were really nothing more then rather large torpedoes that were modified to be one man piloted and loaded up with more then the usual amount of explosives.. they were also fairly short ranged due to lack of space for fuel. They didn't see quite as much in the way of action as the planes (and can you blame em.. imagine drowing in there.. shudders?) and were not nearly as numerous.
Anywhos.. back to the topic.. Katana's would be interesting to have in DR.. simply because in a truly skilled hand they could slice through even some metal armors *granted I find plate armor being sliced hard to belive.. but wouldn't surprise me if someone did at some point just to prove it lol).. but I also agree that if they were released, you'd have a swarm of Ninja and Samuri wanna-bes running around. ahh well.. was a nice thought.
Tylarn
~Thilan
Just for any of you who are history/war interested.. the Japaneese also had Kamikaze Subs, although I honestly can't remember the name they used for them.. the subs were really nothing more then rather large torpedoes that were modified to be one man piloted and loaded up with more then the usual amount of explosives.. they were also fairly short ranged due to lack of space for fuel. They didn't see quite as much in the way of action as the planes (and can you blame em.. imagine drowing in there.. shudders?) and were not nearly as numerous.
Anywhos.. back to the topic.. Katana's would be interesting to have in DR.. simply because in a truly skilled hand they could slice through even some metal armors *granted I find plate armor being sliced hard to belive.. but wouldn't surprise me if someone did at some point just to prove it lol).. but I also agree that if they were released, you'd have a swarm of Ninja and Samuri wanna-bes running around. ahh well.. was a nice thought.
Tylarn
"truly skilled hand". Feh.
I'd ask where you folks got this garbage from, but I already know. A katana, which is primary a cutting weapon, would be only minimally effective against a target in fully articulated plate mail. Even someone wearing chain mail would be better protected against a katana than against a broadsword or a mace when struck on an armored area.
Orpheus: "You've been powering this machine with a forsaken child?"
Venture: "What? It's not like I used the whole thing."
I'd ask where you folks got this garbage from, but I already know. A katana, which is primary a cutting weapon, would be only minimally effective against a target in fully articulated plate mail. Even someone wearing chain mail would be better protected against a katana than against a broadsword or a mace when struck on an armored area.
Orpheus: "You've been powering this machine with a forsaken child?"
Venture: "What? It's not like I used the whole thing."
>>Olesh Blah blah blah, cutting vs impact , blah blah blah
That isn't how the game mecanics work.
I don't want katanas more available IG because I don't see any reason for them to be more available than through the auctions and I don't like having non-racial weaponry that is just a template rip-off.
A unique template for a weapon I'm all for that as long as it has a situation where a weapon from that template is better than a different weapon. That isn't what I see with the katanas.
I am --- Navak
That isn't how the game mecanics work.
I don't want katanas more available IG because I don't see any reason for them to be more available than through the auctions and I don't like having non-racial weaponry that is just a template rip-off.
A unique template for a weapon I'm all for that as long as it has a situation where a weapon from that template is better than a different weapon. That isn't what I see with the katanas.
I am --- Navak
Wouldn't mind having a unique template also. I figured, more then anything, they should have piercing instead of impact. Only reason I see that GM's made it so simular to bastard swords is that impact and 2HE seem to go together too well.
And to the constant complains to not wanting people running around acting like samurai and ninjas... think about this. How often do you see someone running around with a bow and pretending they are Legolas from Lord of the Rings (Gimli in Ssra's case)? The whole LOTR fad is alot more popular in DR then anything with katanas. And frankly, not saying it hasn't happened a few times, but I don't see people pushing the elf fanboy club thing much. People in DR are mature enough to keep things in check...usually.
I was born once as a dying races last resort, I was strong.
I was born again as a weapon against friends, I was stronger.
I am now born from the dying wishes of my loved ones, and I'm pissed.
And to the constant complains to not wanting people running around acting like samurai and ninjas... think about this. How often do you see someone running around with a bow and pretending they are Legolas from Lord of the Rings (Gimli in Ssra's case)? The whole LOTR fad is alot more popular in DR then anything with katanas. And frankly, not saying it hasn't happened a few times, but I don't see people pushing the elf fanboy club thing much. People in DR are mature enough to keep things in check...usually.
I was born once as a dying races last resort, I was strong.
I was born again as a weapon against friends, I was stronger.
I am now born from the dying wishes of my loved ones, and I'm pissed.
I think they should be more impact then piercing. The chisel point at the end of a katana is not so great for thrusting maneuvers. Not saying that it isn't sharp or pointy enough but it is one of the weak spots in the blade's construction and prone to breakage. It would not traditionally have been used in that fashion, though we can't just break certain parts of our blades in DR so the point is moot I guess. Impact in this case makes the edge a little more effective and ensures someone with good strength could get that nice cleave through effect. They should probably lean more toward balance then strength suitability though. I think they use the bastard sword template because it currently makes the most sense for this type of weapon being swappable and even balance/suitability. People tend to say it should be strictly two-handed but that is just the traditional way of using the weapon, they are plenty light and balanced enough for one-handed use as well and that has allowed for many people to master using it one-handed especially for the purpose of wielding two blades as Miyamoto Musashi pioneered. I do think it would be neat though, like that person suggested with scimitars, to have multiple classes of weapons in this style. Like a two-handed only no-dachi, swappable katana/daito or one-handed only model, a medium edged wakizashi, light edge tanto etc. A naginata would be a sweet halberd too. As far as not fitting in the game, I think there are plenty of people who would continue to use traditional styles of swords(myself included) and it would just give people more options for how they want to play themselves out. I really doubt half the game would become overnight anime-samurai-ninjas like some people are worried about(and why don't they complain about the overabundance of anime-furry rakash/prydaen people?), and I think they would become less popular as their novelty wore off. Like I've said before, I don't understand the fear of adding this particular class of weapons when there are already so many other 'multi-cultural non-medieval/european' style of weapons attributed to other in-game races and cultures.
Aside from what I said before though, really, who cares about what a katana can do in real life anyway, look how many people perceive them as some super-fantasy-cut-through-anything weapons, the current ones around fit this role very well. This is still a fantasy game, let them cut through anything and everything, just like the other weapons in the game. I promise a real life claymore would not cleave through a knight dressed in full plate, hell big two-handed swords were meant for cutting down pike hedges and cleaving down cavalry anyway, but it works in DR and it is fun so who cares. It would get old real quick if we had to all carry a hammer for plate guys, a sword for leather guys, and a pointy stick for chain guys plus all the other stuff we wanted to use. Bring on katanas and a million other oddball weapons, the more weapons the better, I want my 300+ item holding vault to be one massive weapon collection. And bring on two-weapon fighting! I need a maine-gauche and rapier, or two scimiars, or two axes at once, a giant pair of scissors, a Katana AND a wakizashi!
Ya if I remember correctly claymores where used to break horses legs. If they where used on plated guys, it would have the same effect as a warhammer, crush the armor so tight against the body it messes up organs or prevents an opponent from expanding his chest to breathe.
Stepping forward to stab an opponent while he does an overhead strike is a valid move with a katana. One of the...13(?someone help me been a long time, don't know number or proper name of the maneuvers) basic steps of kendo involves that. Think its step 2 or so. Basically, its just getting as much distance as possible and piercing him before he can move forward. Problem is that a kote strike would render one useless as well.
Anyways, I totally agree with you on what you say. Weapons have no relavence in DR according to there real life use. Bring them out! Lets have fun with am and collect things that are cool!... I think a tanto and wakazashi mix would be great when dual wield comes out.
I was born once as a dying races last resort, I was strong.
I was born again as a weapon against friends, I was stronger.
I am now born from the dying wishes of my loved ones, and I'm pissed.
Stepping forward to stab an opponent while he does an overhead strike is a valid move with a katana. One of the...13(?someone help me been a long time, don't know number or proper name of the maneuvers) basic steps of kendo involves that. Think its step 2 or so. Basically, its just getting as much distance as possible and piercing him before he can move forward. Problem is that a kote strike would render one useless as well.
Anyways, I totally agree with you on what you say. Weapons have no relavence in DR according to there real life use. Bring them out! Lets have fun with am and collect things that are cool!... I think a tanto and wakazashi mix would be great when dual wield comes out.
I was born once as a dying races last resort, I was strong.
I was born again as a weapon against friends, I was stronger.
I am now born from the dying wishes of my loved ones, and I'm pissed.
Hehe, I could care less about Katanas I want a scissor katar, like from that site Valgar posted. that looks sweet
>forage turd
>
You begin scanning the area before you, trying to find just the right spot to forage.
You are certain you could find what you were looking for, if you had a bit more luck.
Roundtime: 6 sec.
>forage turd
>
You begin scanning the area before you, trying to find just the right spot to forage.
You are certain you could find what you were looking for, if you had a bit more luck.
Roundtime: 6 sec.
""truly skilled hand". Feh.
I'd ask where you folks got this garbage from, but I already know. A katana, which is primary a cutting weapon, would be only minimally effective against a target in fully articulated plate mail. Even someone wearing chain mail would be better protected against a katana than against a broadsword or a mace when struck on an armored area."
I got it from a demonstration that was held when I was stationed in Japan for a few weeks and witnessed a man slice through a chain mail shirt and into the dummy underneath.... while using a Katana... supposedly (according to the tour guides at the time) it was a old Katana, or one made the way they did in the old days (been a few years so I don't remember all the details). Soo.. with that being said, I'd have to belive them and what they showed us that day then what someone else says (no offense, and I don't expect you to belive me just cause I said I saw it either.. just telling you what I saw and why I said what I said). Now, that being said.. I did not see them try anything bigger or heavier, though there was some people there claiming that it could do more such as through a car door (not sure I belive them, but that is why I made the comment about the plate mail and how I didn't think it would, but wouldn't be surprised if someone did do it.).
Tylarn
P.S. I do acknowledge that it is possible that the chain mail was not made the same as it was.. or might have been crappy.. or maybe the Sword itself was not made (or authentic) like the old ones... I am only posting what I saw. I was so caught up in it, I failed to ask alot of information of them before we had to pack up and move on, and never got to go back cause we deployed to the gulf a couple days later. So there is my reason for saying what I did... I love swords irl, and collect as many as I can and read what Ic an about them.. but I am far from an expert on them or Japaneese History.
I'd ask where you folks got this garbage from, but I already know. A katana, which is primary a cutting weapon, would be only minimally effective against a target in fully articulated plate mail. Even someone wearing chain mail would be better protected against a katana than against a broadsword or a mace when struck on an armored area."
I got it from a demonstration that was held when I was stationed in Japan for a few weeks and witnessed a man slice through a chain mail shirt and into the dummy underneath.... while using a Katana... supposedly (according to the tour guides at the time) it was a old Katana, or one made the way they did in the old days (been a few years so I don't remember all the details). Soo.. with that being said, I'd have to belive them and what they showed us that day then what someone else says (no offense, and I don't expect you to belive me just cause I said I saw it either.. just telling you what I saw and why I said what I said). Now, that being said.. I did not see them try anything bigger or heavier, though there was some people there claiming that it could do more such as through a car door (not sure I belive them, but that is why I made the comment about the plate mail and how I didn't think it would, but wouldn't be surprised if someone did do it.).
Tylarn
P.S. I do acknowledge that it is possible that the chain mail was not made the same as it was.. or might have been crappy.. or maybe the Sword itself was not made (or authentic) like the old ones... I am only posting what I saw. I was so caught up in it, I failed to ask alot of information of them before we had to pack up and move on, and never got to go back cause we deployed to the gulf a couple days later. So there is my reason for saying what I did... I love swords irl, and collect as many as I can and read what Ic an about them.. but I am far from an expert on them or Japaneese History.
okay, your all in luck!!!
i just watched a History Channel special on Samurai!!! also sum stuff on Last Samurai DVD i believe. ANYWAY, there were a few things i think you guys misunderstand about a true Katana blade.
-It works like a Bastie sword... either one handed or two handed
-Took a few months to create
-Blades have been discovered with over 200 folds!!! i think the monotone narrator mentioned one found in a river that was 300+ and was still sharp as ever.
-light weight in comparison to spanish style swords that are heavy and folded about 75 times at a best.
-Would be more inclined to cause severe and bleeding damage rather than impact.
-defintly not a stabbing sword, although well trained samurai could thrust quite effectivly
-They are balanced amazingly!!
-an untrained swordsman could severly hurt himself if trying to battle with one.
-the thing that makes me laugh now is that some people seem to think that a Katana blade is only against light armors... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA (continues for pages). Maybe a makeshift blade you would get on discount price at the Xena convention would be like that, but a true Katana can be put in the hands of a 93 yeard old man (i saw the video!!) and can chop through a 1 foot in diameter stack of bamboo after the sword had been sitting in the bottem of a river for hundreds of years!!!
After my extensive History Channel lesson on these swords and their makes, i think that the katanas existing in DR are an emberassment to the true sword, and any attempt to mimic the true power of a true Katana blade (obviously would have to be made by a Barb) would be like having a 20d20 toothpick... everybody would start using 2he if the true power of a katana was implemented in DR.
BUT, if your going to have Katanas, PLEASE include the Seppuku verb so we can all enjoy the true spirit of the weapon.
DISCLAIMER: yes, this information is true (According to the History Channel, and they are God). yes i did write this humerously but with alotta true feeling behind it. and Yes, i know disclaimers usually go at the beginning. thanks
i just watched a History Channel special on Samurai!!! also sum stuff on Last Samurai DVD i believe. ANYWAY, there were a few things i think you guys misunderstand about a true Katana blade.
-It works like a Bastie sword... either one handed or two handed
-Took a few months to create
-Blades have been discovered with over 200 folds!!! i think the monotone narrator mentioned one found in a river that was 300+ and was still sharp as ever.
-light weight in comparison to spanish style swords that are heavy and folded about 75 times at a best.
-Would be more inclined to cause severe and bleeding damage rather than impact.
-defintly not a stabbing sword, although well trained samurai could thrust quite effectivly
-They are balanced amazingly!!
-an untrained swordsman could severly hurt himself if trying to battle with one.
-the thing that makes me laugh now is that some people seem to think that a Katana blade is only against light armors... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA (continues for pages). Maybe a makeshift blade you would get on discount price at the Xena convention would be like that, but a true Katana can be put in the hands of a 93 yeard old man (i saw the video!!) and can chop through a 1 foot in diameter stack of bamboo after the sword had been sitting in the bottem of a river for hundreds of years!!!
After my extensive History Channel lesson on these swords and their makes, i think that the katanas existing in DR are an emberassment to the true sword, and any attempt to mimic the true power of a true Katana blade (obviously would have to be made by a Barb) would be like having a 20d20 toothpick... everybody would start using 2he if the true power of a katana was implemented in DR.
BUT, if your going to have Katanas, PLEASE include the Seppuku verb so we can all enjoy the true spirit of the weapon.
DISCLAIMER: yes, this information is true (According to the History Channel, and they are God). yes i did write this humerously but with alotta true feeling behind it. and Yes, i know disclaimers usually go at the beginning. thanks
Let me go down the list here...
- Works like a bastie. Um, no kidding. The ones in the game are HE/2HE.
- Took a few months to create. Pure myth.
- The 200/300+ folds myth. This was already covered earlier in the thread, but some basic math will give you the details as to why this is untrue. Here's a hint to get you started. What is 2^(-30) power, and how does it compare to the size of an atom?
- Uh. Yes. Japanese weaponry is lightweight compared to most Western weapons. Covered earlier in the thread.
- Related to the above, the katana is a cutting weapon, not an impact weapon. Also covered earlier in the thread.
- Not primarily a thrusting weapon. No kidding.
- Their balance, like anything else, is a product of the skill of the craftsman. There are plenty of sabres and rapiers in museums that are also perfectly balanced, and there are plenty of katanas that are poorly balanced. Nothing about a katana makes it innately more balanced than a rapier or a shamshir.
- Sure. An untrained swordsman can hurt himself with one. Of course, that applies to most weapons, and even edged tools. Never cut yourself with a kitchen knife before?
- Of course, the sword in the river was not cleaned, restored, or sharpened before any of this happened, because katanas are teh indestructarble weapons yAR!.
I've seen museum pieces where the paper trick has been demonstrated - basiclly, the katana is held with blade facing upwards, and a piece of paper is dropped onto the blade, and subsequently is halved with only the force of its own weight.
Katanas are sharp weapons, mean for cutting lightly armored or unarmored opponents. Just because I can split a piece of paper without effort, or kill a man wearing armor made from laquered bamboo, does not mean that I'm going to be able to do more than chip my sword trying to break through metal western armors like chain mail or plate mail.
Like Arcelebor said, the history channel is a corporate entity which is as a whole, unashamed of inserting blatant inaccuracies into their programs in an attempt to garner more viewership. True according to the history channel is a completely meaningless statement. Much like ANYTHING else on television, you should do some real research before you start quoting it for facts.
And try actually READING back in the thread before you post, to see what is actually being argued about, instead of what you THINK people are arguing about.
Orpheus: "You've been powering this machine with a forsaken child?"
Venture: "What? It's not like I used the whole thing."
- Works like a bastie. Um, no kidding. The ones in the game are HE/2HE.
- Took a few months to create. Pure myth.
- The 200/300+ folds myth. This was already covered earlier in the thread, but some basic math will give you the details as to why this is untrue. Here's a hint to get you started. What is 2^(-30) power, and how does it compare to the size of an atom?
- Uh. Yes. Japanese weaponry is lightweight compared to most Western weapons. Covered earlier in the thread.
- Related to the above, the katana is a cutting weapon, not an impact weapon. Also covered earlier in the thread.
- Not primarily a thrusting weapon. No kidding.
- Their balance, like anything else, is a product of the skill of the craftsman. There are plenty of sabres and rapiers in museums that are also perfectly balanced, and there are plenty of katanas that are poorly balanced. Nothing about a katana makes it innately more balanced than a rapier or a shamshir.
- Sure. An untrained swordsman can hurt himself with one. Of course, that applies to most weapons, and even edged tools. Never cut yourself with a kitchen knife before?
- Of course, the sword in the river was not cleaned, restored, or sharpened before any of this happened, because katanas are teh indestructarble weapons yAR!.
I've seen museum pieces where the paper trick has been demonstrated - basiclly, the katana is held with blade facing upwards, and a piece of paper is dropped onto the blade, and subsequently is halved with only the force of its own weight.
Katanas are sharp weapons, mean for cutting lightly armored or unarmored opponents. Just because I can split a piece of paper without effort, or kill a man wearing armor made from laquered bamboo, does not mean that I'm going to be able to do more than chip my sword trying to break through metal western armors like chain mail or plate mail.
Like Arcelebor said, the history channel is a corporate entity which is as a whole, unashamed of inserting blatant inaccuracies into their programs in an attempt to garner more viewership. True according to the history channel is a completely meaningless statement. Much like ANYTHING else on television, you should do some real research before you start quoting it for facts.
And try actually READING back in the thread before you post, to see what is actually being argued about, instead of what you THINK people are arguing about.
Orpheus: "You've been powering this machine with a forsaken child?"
Venture: "What? It's not like I used the whole thing."
1) didnt look on DVD, friend said some was there
2) Yes, considering all information comes from specialists, not out of their head.
3) 93 year old man can cut through bamboo.... a buff adventurer could easily cut into metal armor, maybe not heavy plate, but defnitly through chain, and if you think not you have no buisness commenting on this thread.
2) Yes, considering all information comes from specialists, not out of their head.
3) 93 year old man can cut through bamboo.... a buff adventurer could easily cut into metal armor, maybe not heavy plate, but defnitly through chain, and if you think not you have no buisness commenting on this thread.
It doesn't follow that since a blade can cut bamboo, it can cut metal with simply more force. See, there are physics inherint in the type of blade a katana is made of (from?). Those physics are: a sharp, strong, flexible blade, that also turns/chips easily when encountering metal/extremely hard objects. It has nothing to do with the force you swing a blade with. It's the TYPE of blade. Which is to say: I could swing a sledgehammer with enough force to slice a tree in two. But it wouldn't be delivering 'slicing' damage as much as it would be 'impacting' the tree in half. Going by period armor and weapons, a katana would have sliced into most chainmails, but would not have fully broken them. Going by modern weapons, a modern katana would slice into modern chainmail, and be bounced back.
The whole using katanas one handed is mostly a movie crock also. A person would be so incredibly inaccurate swinging one of those with only one hand. This is because all power that comes from the swing is delt with left hand, while guiding comes from the right.
Put it this way...try hitting a pitched baseball with a bat swung with only one hand. Yes its possible, but 9 times outa 10 you'll be swinning way high or way low cause your not conteracting the leverage. Its hard to swing something as long as a katana and not doing something like breaking your wrist as the weight on the end of the weapon keeps moving even after your hand stops.
Yes, Tom Cruise can do it, thats cause he was payed to do it. There are a "few" notable people in history that did practice a few styles one handed. But then again, history is filled with people trying new and unusual things. Theres reasons why certain methods pass down through history...they work. If you see someone holding two blades that look like katanas, your probably looking at a wakazashi and tanto.
I was born once as a dying races last resort, I was strong.
I was born again as a weapon against friends, I was stronger.
I am now born from the dying wishes of my loved ones, and I'm pissed.
Put it this way...try hitting a pitched baseball with a bat swung with only one hand. Yes its possible, but 9 times outa 10 you'll be swinning way high or way low cause your not conteracting the leverage. Its hard to swing something as long as a katana and not doing something like breaking your wrist as the weight on the end of the weapon keeps moving even after your hand stops.
Yes, Tom Cruise can do it, thats cause he was payed to do it. There are a "few" notable people in history that did practice a few styles one handed. But then again, history is filled with people trying new and unusual things. Theres reasons why certain methods pass down through history...they work. If you see someone holding two blades that look like katanas, your probably looking at a wakazashi and tanto.
I was born once as a dying races last resort, I was strong.
I was born again as a weapon against friends, I was stronger.
I am now born from the dying wishes of my loved ones, and I'm pissed.
Just outta curiousity, where did you all become experts on Katana's and Katana making?
Any of you actually Samurai?
Have any of you actually made a Katana in real life?
Or at least went to college to learn how?
Anyone spend twenty plus years using them in actual combat?
Or use them in actual combat at all?
I mean, I know a little bout Katana's too, but none of it I can prove is fact. So why spout drivel as fact when you know someone else is gonna spout more drivel against your drivel and cause a huge argument of drivel about something none of you know anything about. Its all just silly if you ask me.
Let the thread go. I know its hard, but count to ten and click next category. :)
~Malyck Taenrya
Of the Zoluren Dragoons
Any of you actually Samurai?
Have any of you actually made a Katana in real life?
Or at least went to college to learn how?
Anyone spend twenty plus years using them in actual combat?
Or use them in actual combat at all?
I mean, I know a little bout Katana's too, but none of it I can prove is fact. So why spout drivel as fact when you know someone else is gonna spout more drivel against your drivel and cause a huge argument of drivel about something none of you know anything about. Its all just silly if you ask me.
Let the thread go. I know its hard, but count to ten and click next category. :)
~Malyck Taenrya
Of the Zoluren Dragoons
<<Just outta curiousity, where did you all become experts on Katana's and Katana making?
The things I've said about hand maneuvering, steps, and grips do come from experience. I've been member of the Texas A&M Kumdo/Kendo team. Things comparing fencing techniques a few post back come from the fact that I am also a sabre'ist on the Texas A&M Fencing team (wish them luck at nationals guys though I won't be heading down). Things I've pulled from history facts are due to the fact that my major is Japanese. But I would never say I'm a master, I'm far from it...just not blowing hot air "all" the time.
Yes everyone that ever watched anime, Last Samurai, read a book bout ninjas, seen Real Ultimate Power or Kill Bill...they all think they know there stuff. Some people here really do have knowledge in what they are talking about. The guy talking about how the edge of the Katanas is usually tempered differently along with a harder steal was right on the money. The person that described how the folding process isn't done thousands of actual times was also dead right on too (same words directly from a forgers mouth that I work with.) But the fact is...that unless any of us really are forgers or have been practicing for years and years, we aren't experts.
So lets dispell some of these things by someone that is. (Granted I'm not a fan of ARMA but the guy knows his stuff here.) For those not wanting to read the passage, heres a few highlights.
<<It (katana) has good balance, may be well constructed, and it does what it was designed to do pretty well. But it is made out of steel, and has all the limitations of other steel swords
<<The Japanese sword is a superb draw-cutting weapon.
<<The draw back is that it doesn't cut armor, even mail, very well. A draw cut is very ineffective against hard armor. Changing the cut, and delivering a shearing blow does not work either. The blade of the katana is thick, with a sharp cutting bevel. The edge is strong, but the wedge it presents has to move aside more material. When cutting into metal, this is very difficult to do.
**Note - Not impossible, just not very well. If it was impossible, then the sword probably wouldnt have been very successful in any fights. This is because in war you don't usually go lightly armored. I honestly don't know why people on these forums kept thinking Japanese armor was only laquered bamboo. Why would they not use metal in there armors? They have enough metal for blades and spears, they have enough metal to add to armor too. Even then, other weapons that Japanese have are plenty able to take care of metal armor.
<<The Japanese made good swords, but they also made very good armor. Many of the suits have plates of the same steel as the sword blades. The front of the plates was just as hard as the sword edge, while the back was soft and springy.
Again on the two handed/one handed stuff.
<<The Japanese sword was a two-handed weapon. Using both hands, a much harder blow can be delivered. Earlier swords, which were slightly heavier and longer, would add even additional force to the blow. But even with these advantages, the sword was not very good at penetrating armor.
<<I have been assured, frequently in fact, that Japanese blades are so strong and tough that they never break, nick or bend. Well, they break, they nick, and they bend. They frequently nick quite badly. Damascus steel is a superior steel, or it can be when done by a superb smith. But even a superior steel is still steel and will respond like steel.
<<Another "fact" about Japanese swords is that the point, which is distinct and unique, is an armor-piercing point. It isn't. Shoving a knife or sword through a car door isn't that hard and many blades can do it. The Japanese point is harder to pierce with than many other designs.
There are many people here fanatical enough to read the couple pages of info on this same topic. I would advise so as many, as the author puts, hypes are about.
I was born once as a dying races last resort, I was strong.
I was born again as a weapon against friends, I was stronger.
I am now born from the dying wishes of my loved ones, and I'm pissed.
The things I've said about hand maneuvering, steps, and grips do come from experience. I've been member of the Texas A&M Kumdo/Kendo team. Things comparing fencing techniques a few post back come from the fact that I am also a sabre'ist on the Texas A&M Fencing team (wish them luck at nationals guys though I won't be heading down). Things I've pulled from history facts are due to the fact that my major is Japanese. But I would never say I'm a master, I'm far from it...just not blowing hot air "all" the time.
Yes everyone that ever watched anime, Last Samurai, read a book bout ninjas, seen Real Ultimate Power or Kill Bill...they all think they know there stuff. Some people here really do have knowledge in what they are talking about. The guy talking about how the edge of the Katanas is usually tempered differently along with a harder steal was right on the money. The person that described how the folding process isn't done thousands of actual times was also dead right on too (same words directly from a forgers mouth that I work with.) But the fact is...that unless any of us really are forgers or have been practicing for years and years, we aren't experts.
So lets dispell some of these things by someone that is. (Granted I'm not a fan of ARMA but the guy knows his stuff here.) For those not wanting to read the passage, heres a few highlights.
<<It (katana) has good balance, may be well constructed, and it does what it was designed to do pretty well. But it is made out of steel, and has all the limitations of other steel swords
<<The Japanese sword is a superb draw-cutting weapon.
<<The draw back is that it doesn't cut armor, even mail, very well. A draw cut is very ineffective against hard armor. Changing the cut, and delivering a shearing blow does not work either. The blade of the katana is thick, with a sharp cutting bevel. The edge is strong, but the wedge it presents has to move aside more material. When cutting into metal, this is very difficult to do.
**Note - Not impossible, just not very well. If it was impossible, then the sword probably wouldnt have been very successful in any fights. This is because in war you don't usually go lightly armored. I honestly don't know why people on these forums kept thinking Japanese armor was only laquered bamboo. Why would they not use metal in there armors? They have enough metal for blades and spears, they have enough metal to add to armor too. Even then, other weapons that Japanese have are plenty able to take care of metal armor.
<<The Japanese made good swords, but they also made very good armor. Many of the suits have plates of the same steel as the sword blades. The front of the plates was just as hard as the sword edge, while the back was soft and springy.
Again on the two handed/one handed stuff.
<<The Japanese sword was a two-handed weapon. Using both hands, a much harder blow can be delivered. Earlier swords, which were slightly heavier and longer, would add even additional force to the blow. But even with these advantages, the sword was not very good at penetrating armor.
<<I have been assured, frequently in fact, that Japanese blades are so strong and tough that they never break, nick or bend. Well, they break, they nick, and they bend. They frequently nick quite badly. Damascus steel is a superior steel, or it can be when done by a superb smith. But even a superior steel is still steel and will respond like steel.
<<Another "fact" about Japanese swords is that the point, which is distinct and unique, is an armor-piercing point. It isn't. Shoving a knife or sword through a car door isn't that hard and many blades can do it. The Japanese point is harder to pierce with than many other designs.
There are many people here fanatical enough to read the couple pages of info on this same topic. I would advise so as many, as the author puts, hypes are about.
I was born once as a dying races last resort, I was strong.
I was born again as a weapon against friends, I was stronger.
I am now born from the dying wishes of my loved ones, and I'm pissed.
