TF is currently in a state of flux. All n00bs will be killed on sight, no questions asked. We accepted our last n00b today. If you have questions as to why, please IM DrNattyTF. After Guildfest we will open up TF to n00bs again. Thank you for your attention to this matter.

Signed,

The TF ANTIn00b Union

>>Only in DR:TF would the playerbase think its a wise idea to PK the idea of wanting GMs to do things for them.

Can you please join TF just so I can waste 200 basilisk arrows on your head? thanks.

Agreed.

The TF ANTIn00b Union

>>Going to have to disagree with you here.

I will disagree with YOU there. Two rules in TF as they've been explained to me. No hacking accts, and no mechanic abuse. We will police otherwise.

The TF ANTIn00b Union

>>>You're basically prohibiting Simu from making money off of TF due to preventing new customers. 10 bucks says you're going to lose regardless of what rules say.

Haven't you heard? They ceded policy enforcement to the players after the recent guildfest debacle.


Avaya, Wizard of TF

what??? we're talking about a n00b who has been outrageous on the chatter. what are you even talking about?!?!??!

The TF ANTIn00b Union

And the last n00b to join has been welcolmed with open arms, and given 600 plat. And shown the ropes, but he is very respectful and not disrupting our pleasurable experience in TF.

The TF ANTIn00b Union

>>Does the report verb actually work in TF?
why are they still posting?

>>You understand that in DragonRealms: The Fallen!, your character is subject to attack from any other player's character at any time for any reason! This is an open Player vs. Player environment. If your character is killed, even permanently, there is no recourse for getting it back. A GameMaster cannot help you.

CASE IN POINT, thank you.

The TF ANTIn00b Union

>>>I encourage you to read this page very carefully:

>>>https://www.play.net/dr/fallen/disclaimer.asp

>>Particularly the last item.


>>>Solomon


You understand that in DragonRealms: The Fallen!, you can be locked out if you violate those Simutronics' policies that prohibit unauthorized or malicious access of another customer's account, those that prohibit the abuse of major "bugs", or for any reason if it is determined to be in Simutronics' best interests to remove you from the playing environment! If you observe someone else abusing a serious bug, or discussing a plan to abuse one, and fail to report it, you are subject to the same penalties as they are. Serious bugs should be reported by using the BUG verb as well as by using REPORT. Benefits obtained from bug abuse may be confiscated, at Simutronics' sole discretion. Even in DragonRealms: The Fallen!, Simutronics reserves the right to make special-case adjustments to its policies and the steps it takes concerning violation of these policies.

>>>Simutronics reserves the right to make special-case adjustments to its policies and the steps it takes concerning violation of these policies.


Aka, there is no policy. They can do whatever they want whenever they want.

<<Aka, there is no policy. They can do whatever they want whenever they want.>>

Since you missed it, I'll highlight the relevant part:

You understand that in DragonRealms: The Fallen!, you can be locked out if you violate those Simutronics' policies that prohibit unauthorized or malicious access of another customer's account, those that prohibit the abuse of major "bugs", or for any reason if it is determined to be in Simutronics' best interests to remove you from the playing environment!

Solomon

>>Can you please join TF just so I can waste 200 basilisk arrows on your head? thanks.

Already have a DR:TF account :(

>>Only in TF would we want some type of order and DR policy followed. Other than that, no more allowed in to TF. Period. Subscription has ended.

DR:TF's policy was "we don't acknowledge you exist". If you don't want more GM support for Newbie Matches, updates to the Extreme Shop, random invasions for laughs, and the other events the GMs really had no reason to provide to begin with, I don't mind having that work/effort/energy siphoned over into Plat (or Prime I guess) instead.

This is just a rather bizarre argument to have. At best, it results in the GMs going "Okay, so we'll go back to ignoring you as per the general contract you agree with when you sign up for DR:TF," and that ignoring can include just never opening limited run events and just rolling in system updates when applicable.

>> Definitely didn't miss the part your bolded. I just thought the part I quoted, where you state your policy is to have no policy despite pretending to have a policy, was more interesting.

The item Solomon mentioned in his policy trumps all over issues. It's a catch all for players that like to play policy games and/or abuse grey areas and think they can get away with it.

My view on the exception is that it essentially catches all behavior that may "deviate from the general intent and heart" of TF. Prohibiting new players from playing the game would certainly destroy both of those, regardless of whether a person is not violating one of the enumerated policies.

It seems pretty cut and dry from my end.

>>Since you missed it, I'll highlight the relevant part:
>>Solomon



>>Definitely didn't miss the part your bolded. I just thought the part I quoted, where you state your policy is to have no policy despite pretending to have a policy, was more interesting.

>>Since you missed it, the implication here is that you and your staff are intentionally vague in your policy to avoid having to:

>>1.) articulate policy
>>2.) investigate policy violations
>>3.) address any bugs that may be subject to abuse
>>4.) apply sanctions in a fair, proportionate way


Thanks for writing this post, you literally summed up all my thoughts - just more eloquently and precisely.

What a joke of a policy. What's the point of a policy if at the end you're going to include 'Despite all the nonsense we just laid out as 'official policy', we have in our right, to do whatever we want, whenever we want, for any reason we want'.

I feel sort of bad for the guy who actually had to write any sort of policy in this game. What a waste of time.

---

Don't make accounts while under the influence - it may lead to ridiculous spelling errors.

>>What a joke of a policy. What's the point of a policy if at the end you're going to include 'Despite all the nonsense we just laid out as 'official policy', we have in our right, to do whatever we want, whenever we want, for any reason we want'.

The open ended policy amounts to the recognition that select players can and will be incredible idiots at times, and it is in the companies best interests to not keep them around.

It's not within the companies best interests for anyone to proactively discourage other players to pay more money to do things. Of course SIMU won't permit it.

>>>You realize how ridiculous all the TFers who are trying to prevent account creation in TF sound right? You sound like a bunch of petulant children to the rest of us grown ups. Try looking at the bigger picture, as opposed to yourself for a change.

I like you man. Getting all ad hominem without knowing what the heck people are upset about. Good stuff. No one is surprised by the intentionally vague policy. Everybody does it, sure. Everybody has their reasons, sure.

But do you realize how vegetative all you Primers who are perfectly fine with the way Solomon exercises his carte blanche sound right? How would you feel if they punished all of Prime for something 1 (one) person did? And how would you feel if they singled out you on the forums and told all of Prime to punish you? And why do you think it's okay for some bugs to be abused by the entire playing population, while others are swiftly and excessively punished?

Lets give some examples. Hiding/shivering in RT to avoid losing your class. This nets people hundreds of ranks of hiding, teaching, scholarship exp. Pyramids nets people hundreds of ranks of mech lore. Sneaking across the ice road to Hib nullifies the danger of the road. Dragging items ignores swim checks. These have been ignored forever, but using them still means you are abusing mechanics and should receive a lockout. "But everyone does it!" "But it's a feature!" No, it's mechanics abuse plain and simple. Simu just applies the policy when it is convenient for them.

Why is selectively applying vague policy a problem? It's their game. It's not a democracy. So why should we protest what we think are unfair sanctions and unclear policies?

1.) Solomon and his staff have a history of playing favorites. There are multiple documented cases of Solomon abusing his position to give advantages to his friends and sanction players for taking actions against his friends that are expressly NOT policy violations. Ie, gwethsmashers. This speaks to the character of the people enforcing the policies and their ability to perform their function in a reasonable way. Which is to say, they can't be trusted to act fairly.

2.) Bugs are coding mistakes. In such a large, rapidly changing program, bugs are understandable and expected. They are not, however, player mistakes and it is not our job to find them or fix them. When so many bugs get abused for so many years, it starts to blur the lines. Some mechanics abuse is clearly okay, but other types are not. Most people want to legitimately follow the rules, but they can't because no one will tell them what is or is not permitted. They have to guess. And you know what? Some people will guess wrong and get the ban hammer. Further, the years of allowing multiple bugs to be abused in a huge way indicates that a.) fixing bugs and b.) benefiting from bugs are not a priority of Simu. Yet, they randomly apply this "policy" when it suits them. (See point 1 for how this can get out of hand).

3.) Everyone has to follow policy. Yes, everyone. Including Solomon and his staff. It is a two-way street to prevent players and staff from disrupting the gaming environment. But the current policy is written with the assumption that only players have the ability to be disruptive. This is not true. The staff are just as capable of harming our enjoyment of the game, yet they are not subject to any policy. You have argued that the staff need broad powers to accommodate any sort of abuse they haven't thought of yet. I tend to agree with that statement: it's hard to imagine every possible infraction. So some leeway is reasonable. But unlimited power to apply any sanction in any circumstance is not acceptable. Nuclear options, such as punishing an entire instance, is not an acceptable course of action. You do not want to see this kind of behavior in Prime. A fair system, one that is subject to review, that punishes infractions in a proportional way is best for all of us.
I get that Simu can do more or less whatever they want. They can ban someone for being the kindest, most generous player of all time if they want. But should they? What I am saying is that Simu should voluntarily limit their power and establish a system that applies to both players and staff. A system with reasonable granularity to allow minor punishments for minor infractions, severe punishments for severe infractions, and everything in between. A system that is predictable and applied consistently across all players and staff. A system that limits the scope of punishment to the people that actually commit the infraction. A system for which the process is clearly published with adequate recourse for players to challenge unfair decisions.

---

Now, Natty and Achilles tend to embody the belligerent attitude of TF players. But they're actually pretty reasonable people when it's all said and done. I will suggest to you here that their decision to prevent new players from participating in the TF instance is actually a symptom of the systemic abuse of TF players that has taken place in the past few months (if not longer). Not saying it's ok, not saying they should be allowed to do it. I am saying, however, that all parties involved are responsible for the current situation and that escalation on the part of the players is a reflection of the complete lack of willingness on the part of the staff to address realm-wide concerns.


Avaya

>>I like you man. Getting all ad hominem without knowing what the heck people are upset about. Good stuff. No one is surprised by the intentionally vague policy. Everybody does it, sure. Everybody has their reasons, sure.

I couldn't care less why the TF population suddenly decided to act like a 3 year old with a bad case of the MINE's and say "NOT YOURS, YOU CAN'T PLAY!" (I mean literally). Nor is understanding required to call out the actions as childish, and state that no reasons justify that level of behavior. Even IF the other side did it first.

>>Why is selectively applying vague policy a problem? It's their game. It's not a democracy. So why should we protest what we think are unfair sanctions and unclear policies?

No one said you shouldn't protest, or make your displeasure known. What is being said/implied is that throwing a temper tantrum like is being done now is the wrong way to do it. Especially if you expect any support.

As an aside, I'd wager you and those protesting, either don't have the full story, are are choosing to be selective in what you say to paint yourselves in a better light.

>>I am saying, however, that all parties involved are responsible for the current situation and that escalation on the part of the players is a reflection of the complete lack of willingness on the part of the staff to address realm-wide concerns.

Actually, only the players who are attempting to impose a ban on new players are responsible for that situation. They have other choices they could have made to protest. They choose a nuclear option, that will almost certainly backfire in their faces.

---

TG, TG, GL, et al.

>>What other actions would you suggest?

I would suggest the ultimate expression of dissatisfaction: cancellation. This is the final, complete, and arguably only reasonable recourse any 'paying customer' has to attempt to affect any sort of change in the way things are handled.

Criticism of the way policy is interpreted by the people who write and enforce the policy is an exercise in futility. Threats with regards to how you will operate your 'play style' in protest of policy enforcement is akin to beating your head against the wall.

- Kart

>>>Vote with your wallet

People have done so and plan to do so if nothing changes. Nothing has changed. In the next couple of weeks people will allow their subscriptions to expire, in part because of this issue.

>>> Start a discussion

All previous discussions have been outright ignored by the staff, at least on the TF forums. On these forums the staff have only commented on the anti-n00b movement. Symptom, not the problem.

>>> email

I don't know that anyone has tried to email them. I may do that to see what kind of response we get. I'm anticipating it will go like this: buff, turf, stone wall.

The point is, the population of TF didn't just perceive a small slight and decide to snipe n00bs. This has built up over months of inaction in the face of sustained protest.

Believe it or not, you guys in prime have a stake in how this turns out. TF may be the land of belligerent, unsupervised players, but this is fundamentally a customer service breakdown. Whatever precedent gets set here will also be set for you--you should vote no on realm-wide knee jerk reactions.

Avaya

This one's done too.

Again same response, if you have issues about the TF instance, post on the TF forum.

Thanks!


Annwyl
Message Board Supervisor

If you've questions or comments, take it to e-mail by writing me at DR-Annwyl@play.net.

Some posts were removed.

Annwyl
Message Board Supervisor

If you've questions or comments, take it to e-mail by writing me at DR-Annwyl@play.net.