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I got an air-headed question. Because I know I've read the answer , but my head is 3.0 muddled right now.
Not all the skills , say I want Alchemy , are released for 3.0 right? Meaning we can't distribute mech into them?
My understanding is that all mech skills are not coming out in DR3, but they ones which are out, are. So you can either choose to split your mech now and put it in any full or partial amount, into a current skill, or you can hold on to it until the crafting you want is released.
You won't be able to train 'generic mech' any more, either.
Adding nothing to the conversation since 1834.
You won't be able to train 'generic mech' any more, either.
Adding nothing to the conversation since 1834.
>>You won't be able to train 'generic mech' any more, either.
Fairly sure that generic mech will be trainable until at least all new mech skills can trained. Not all disciplines released, but at least one from each skill.
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh
Fairly sure that generic mech will be trainable until at least all new mech skills can trained. Not all disciplines released, but at least one from each skill.
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh
Mech lore will still be trainable by the old methods till at least one path of each of the 5 new lores is out. However, post 3.0 release, forging, tailoring and carving will no longer teach mech, they will only teach their respective lore skills and the only way to train those lore skills is by doing those crafting activities.
The only question I have for a GM is once 3.0 is out and the only way to train the current 3 released lores is by doing, can those of us who aren't putting any mech into those 3 skills learn those skills without a cap or is there still a plan to allow only 100 ranks in each till we split our mech?
I'm holding out for enchanting but I'd like to train the other lores enough so I can get the repair/gathering techs needed for each so I can dabble while I wait.
I'm holding out for enchanting but I'd like to train the other lores enough so I can get the repair/gathering techs needed for each so I can dabble while I wait.
>The only question I have for a GM is once 3.0 is out and the only way to train the current 3 released lores is by doing, can those of us who aren't putting any mech into those 3 skills learn those skills without a cap or is there still a plan to allow only 100 ranks in each till we split our mech?
As far as I know, there is no cap on learning the new skills, and you can hold on to your mech however much you have. What I'm not sure of is if, later, you will be forced to put the ranks into the un-released skills if you don't use them now.
Also, glad to hear that mech will be trainable till all 5 skills are out. Last I'd read it was going the other way, and I was less than impressed with that.
Adding nothing to the conversation since 1834.
As far as I know, there is no cap on learning the new skills, and you can hold on to your mech however much you have. What I'm not sure of is if, later, you will be forced to put the ranks into the un-released skills if you don't use them now.
Also, glad to hear that mech will be trainable till all 5 skills are out. Last I'd read it was going the other way, and I was less than impressed with that.
Adding nothing to the conversation since 1834.
>What I'm not sure of is if, later, you will be forced to put the ranks into the un-released skills if you don't use them now.
The last I heard was that you could put Mech into any skill only once. If you want to try each skill before assigning ranks, only the first 100 ranks gained will count after you assign Mech ranks to it. This is to prevent people from storing all their Mech ranks and gaining lower/easier ranks and then using Mech bits to gain higher ranks, while still allowing people to try the craft before deciding.
Elemental Lord Opieus, Master Warrior Mage of Elanthia
"For a bunch of radical empiricists, the Philosophers' system relies on a whole lot of faith." ~Armifer
The last I heard was that you could put Mech into any skill only once. If you want to try each skill before assigning ranks, only the first 100 ranks gained will count after you assign Mech ranks to it. This is to prevent people from storing all their Mech ranks and gaining lower/easier ranks and then using Mech bits to gain higher ranks, while still allowing people to try the craft before deciding.
Elemental Lord Opieus, Master Warrior Mage of Elanthia
"For a bunch of radical empiricists, the Philosophers' system relies on a whole lot of faith." ~Armifer
>The last I heard was that you could put Mech into any skill only once. If you want to try each skill before assigning ranks, only the first 100 ranks gained will count after you assign Mech ranks to it. This is to prevent people from storing all their Mech ranks and gaining lower/easier ranks and then using Mech bits to gain higher ranks, while still allowing people to try the craft before deciding.
So if I never transfer mech to the current 3 skills and only put it into the unreleased ones I could train as many ranks as I wanted in forging etc? That would be perfect! Hope what you heard is right then!
So if I never transfer mech to the current 3 skills and only put it into the unreleased ones I could train as many ranks as I wanted in forging etc? That would be perfect! Hope what you heard is right then!
>>Fairly sure that generic mech will be trainable until at least all new mech skills can trained. Not all disciplines released, but at least one from each skill.
This is mostly correct. We'll 'turn on' a skill when it's full trainable with its discipline(s). At that point, those things will stop training mech, and when we do turn on the last skill, mech will go away.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
This is mostly correct. We'll 'turn on' a skill when it's full trainable with its discipline(s). At that point, those things will stop training mech, and when we do turn on the last skill, mech will go away.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
Socharis, could you clarify a few of the subtler points about converting?
For example, will there in fact be a cap on how much of a new crafting skill you can learn before transferring Mech into it? And if you split into multiple skills at once, will there be a slight loss factored in as has been mentioned in a few places, and will the lost bits go into the lore pool?
My strategy for what I want to do when 3.0 goes live is going to be heavily dependent on these specifics.
If there is a loss in the conversion, and the lost bits are not put into the lore bonus pool, I'm going to hold on to 100% of my mech until Alchemy is released. Then as more systems are released, I will make a judgment about which I like best and allocate my ranks accordingly. I would like to train Forging in the meantime but won't waste my time if all I can get from it is 100 ranks.
~ Player of Farman et al.
For example, will there in fact be a cap on how much of a new crafting skill you can learn before transferring Mech into it? And if you split into multiple skills at once, will there be a slight loss factored in as has been mentioned in a few places, and will the lost bits go into the lore pool?
My strategy for what I want to do when 3.0 goes live is going to be heavily dependent on these specifics.
If there is a loss in the conversion, and the lost bits are not put into the lore bonus pool, I'm going to hold on to 100% of my mech until Alchemy is released. Then as more systems are released, I will make a judgment about which I like best and allocate my ranks accordingly. I would like to train Forging in the meantime but won't waste my time if all I can get from it is 100 ranks.
~ Player of Farman et al.
Your conversion rate is not affected by how many skills you're putting ranks into. You can't split into multiple skills 'at once' - You can only do one at a time, and if you do it in rapid succession, that's fine. You can train a crafting skill as high as you want before you put your mech lore into it, but since you can only convert your mech into another skill once, that might be a silly choice.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
Ahhh ok it appears that CONVERT was changed since the last time I was in Test maybe two weeks ago. I like this new method a LOT better, thanks.
In my case I foresee picking careers in Blacksmithing and Alchemy. So I would like to continue doing blacksmithing workorders as they have proven to be quite profitable, but also position myself to have as much Mech available to transfer into Alchemy as possible. I don't mind training Forging up from zero--in fact that seems like a lot of fun to start off from completely incompetent ;)
However, I might still choose to throw a few Mech ranks into Forging if it's not where I want it to be when both skills are live. It's good to know that I'm going to be able to do that regardless of how high I manage to get it before Alchemy goes live. Or am I still misunderstanding something? I'm not sure if I follow what might be silly about this approach.
~ Player of Farman et al.
In my case I foresee picking careers in Blacksmithing and Alchemy. So I would like to continue doing blacksmithing workorders as they have proven to be quite profitable, but also position myself to have as much Mech available to transfer into Alchemy as possible. I don't mind training Forging up from zero--in fact that seems like a lot of fun to start off from completely incompetent ;)
However, I might still choose to throw a few Mech ranks into Forging if it's not where I want it to be when both skills are live. It's good to know that I'm going to be able to do that regardless of how high I manage to get it before Alchemy goes live. Or am I still misunderstanding something? I'm not sure if I follow what might be silly about this approach.
~ Player of Farman et al.
FWIW there's a bit of legacy text in the description of CONVERT:
> CONVERT ### MECH INTO {SKILL} - Converts ### ranks of Mech Lore into the specified crafting skill. You can specify >'mechanical' if you want to leave a portion of your ranks in your mech lore. You can also substitute 'ALL' for the number of >ranks to move all of your mech lore over.
The bolded sentence is no longer valid, and MECHANICAL isn't a valid target skill.
~ Player of Farman et al.
> CONVERT ### MECH INTO {SKILL} - Converts ### ranks of Mech Lore into the specified crafting skill. You can specify >'mechanical' if you want to leave a portion of your ranks in your mech lore. You can also substitute 'ALL' for the number of >ranks to move all of your mech lore over.
The bolded sentence is no longer valid, and MECHANICAL isn't a valid target skill.
~ Player of Farman et al.
>>You can train a crafting skill as high as you want before you put your mech lore into it, but since you can only convert your mech into another skill once, that might be a silly choice.
Well for example I kind of want to do some outfitting, but also am interested in enchanting. So I'm planning to put no ranks in outfitting at the beginning and train it from 0. In the meantime I'll put some ranks into Forging but then whenever Enchanting comes out I'll want to decide whether to put my remaining Mech Lore ranks into Outfitting or Enchanting. So say I'm up to 600 Outfitting at that point and also have like 700 mech lore ranks that I decide to put into outfitting:
Do all 600 of my Outfitting count and I end up with 600 + 700 = something around 900, or do only my first 100 Outfitting ranks count and I end up with 100 + 700 = something around 710, or do none of my Outfitting ranks count and I just get exactly 700?
Apu
_
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Apu
Well for example I kind of want to do some outfitting, but also am interested in enchanting. So I'm planning to put no ranks in outfitting at the beginning and train it from 0. In the meantime I'll put some ranks into Forging but then whenever Enchanting comes out I'll want to decide whether to put my remaining Mech Lore ranks into Outfitting or Enchanting. So say I'm up to 600 Outfitting at that point and also have like 700 mech lore ranks that I decide to put into outfitting:
Do all 600 of my Outfitting count and I end up with 600 + 700 = something around 900, or do only my first 100 Outfitting ranks count and I end up with 100 + 700 = something around 710, or do none of my Outfitting ranks count and I just get exactly 700?
Apu
_
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Apu
>You can train a crafting skill as high as you want before you put your mech lore into it, but since you can only convert your mech into another skill once, that might be a silly choice.
This makes me sad.
At this point the best way for me to train forging would be to train it up from zero at the same time as I continue to train mechanical lore. Then when they're even or all skills are released I just transfer all mechanical lore to forging.
So the best way to train would also prevent me from actually using the skill.
Makes me sad.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
This makes me sad.
At this point the best way for me to train forging would be to train it up from zero at the same time as I continue to train mechanical lore. Then when they're even or all skills are released I just transfer all mechanical lore to forging.
So the best way to train would also prevent me from actually using the skill.
Makes me sad.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
>>At this point the best way for me to train forging would be to train it up from zero at the same time as I continue to train mechanical lore.
>>So the best way to train would also prevent me from actually using the skill.
If it's so much better, I DARE you to do it.
You aren't going to, because it is not better and you know it.
Apu
_
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Apu
>>So the best way to train would also prevent me from actually using the skill.
If it's so much better, I DARE you to do it.
You aren't going to, because it is not better and you know it.
Apu
_
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Apu
>You aren't going to, because it is not better and you know it.
Since when is being able to train two skills at once then combine them not better than just training one?
I won't do it because I actually like being able to forge, but if I wanted to train the best I would.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
Since when is being able to train two skills at once then combine them not better than just training one?
I won't do it because I actually like being able to forge, but if I wanted to train the best I would.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
>>Since when is being able to train two skills at once then combine them not better than just training one?
If it were better, you would do it. You aren't going to do it because the meager benefits do not come remotely close to the penalty of not being able to forge anything for months.
Stop complaining about a hypothetical advantage that only exists on paper. In the real world, all this does is make things more fair for people who are interested in skills that haven't been coded yet.
Apu
_
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Apu
If it were better, you would do it. You aren't going to do it because the meager benefits do not come remotely close to the penalty of not being able to forge anything for months.
Stop complaining about a hypothetical advantage that only exists on paper. In the real world, all this does is make things more fair for people who are interested in skills that haven't been coded yet.
Apu
_
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Apu
>You aren't going to, because it is not better and you know it.
I'm going to though. It's my plan to not transfer any of my mech lore skill with any of my characters until all the systems have been released, mostly because I don't want to decide now without know every system.
Isn't that the cost every person need to decide? Is my current usage of the system now (being able to forge the top items of my chosen skill, sell particular items people want, prestige, etc.) worth the extra ranks I may gain later? Essentially, am I not just earning interest by not being able to use the skill now and waiting for later?
Nikpack
I'm going to though. It's my plan to not transfer any of my mech lore skill with any of my characters until all the systems have been released, mostly because I don't want to decide now without know every system.
Isn't that the cost every person need to decide? Is my current usage of the system now (being able to forge the top items of my chosen skill, sell particular items people want, prestige, etc.) worth the extra ranks I may gain later? Essentially, am I not just earning interest by not being able to use the skill now and waiting for later?
Nikpack
>>If it were better, you would do it.
Not everyone wants to game the system just because they can game the system.
In the long run, it's "better" to double dip for exp by filling two pools than just fill one pool. That doen't mean people will definitely invest in doing it for some reason or another. Some might just want the instant payout because they're impatient (or whatever). Some might want to fill mech with the intention of eventually dumping that pool into another craft instead. Others might just not care enough about lores.
When in doubt, http://elanthipedia.org/
Not everyone wants to game the system just because they can game the system.
In the long run, it's "better" to double dip for exp by filling two pools than just fill one pool. That doen't mean people will definitely invest in doing it for some reason or another. Some might just want the instant payout because they're impatient (or whatever). Some might want to fill mech with the intention of eventually dumping that pool into another craft instead. Others might just not care enough about lores.
When in doubt, http://elanthipedia.org/
I imagine I'll be doing it too. My character has just started, so there is very little significant loss associated with losing my forging/outfitting ability for a while. I am fairly sure I'll want to go with weaponsmithing and tailoring as careers, while taking blacksmithing as hobby so I can make my own tools for my careers (and see my darn ingot composition). This said, I am not certain how much of my mech I'll want to move, and as was said, filling and draining 2 pools simultaneously is going to be the best way to train.
There is only one way to avoid this problem: make mech continue working as the functional creation skill until all systems are released, but that creates it own problems. Players won't be able to train 2 future crafting skills simultaneously while getting all the immediate benefits of both now... exactly the present situation.
--Wryhk
1st grade tl;dr version:
Numbers didn't change. Words changed. Words don't matter. Numbers all that matters.
--GRIM45
There is only one way to avoid this problem: make mech continue working as the functional creation skill until all systems are released, but that creates it own problems. Players won't be able to train 2 future crafting skills simultaneously while getting all the immediate benefits of both now... exactly the present situation.
--Wryhk
1st grade tl;dr version:
Numbers didn't change. Words changed. Words don't matter. Numbers all that matters.
--GRIM45
> There is only one way to avoid this problem
There are many ways to avoid this situation. For example, have transferring mech first knock your crafting skill back down to some small value, such as 0 or 100. Or more severely: make a crafting skill not trainable until after you've transferred mech into it (or waived your chance to do so).
There are many ways to avoid this situation. For example, have transferring mech first knock your crafting skill back down to some small value, such as 0 or 100. Or more severely: make a crafting skill not trainable until after you've transferred mech into it (or waived your chance to do so).
>>In the long run, it's "better" to double dip for exp by filling two pools than just fill one pool.
No it is not. If you care about only one specific skill out of the five crafting skills, to the point that you're going to train both Mech Lore and the Crafting skill simultaneously just to get a small bonus in extra exp bits, then are you REALLY going to willingly give yourself a 100% penalty to your only Crafting skill that you care about just for this small long-term advantage in exp bits, while also taking a massive hit to your ability to train all other skills (because trying to keep Mech Lore plus a Crafting skill moving simultaneously is going to be a nearly full time job). I will free admit that I am all for gaming the system to gain any unintended min/max advantage I can find - but honestly I would not ever do this half-baked "double dipping" training idea, because it is flat out NOT worth it.
People are overly worrying about a tiny long-term advantage that is balanced by an enormous short-term penalty, and apparently seem fine with including massively unfair long-term penalties to people who prefer to wait for Enchanting and Alchemy to come out before they decide where to put their ranks. Not surprisingly, this selfish attitude only comes from the people lucky enough for their favored crafting discipline to be released already, so they don't care about screwing over hundreds of players who legitimately want to wait to decide, just because in theory there might be one or two people out there who game the system for an advantage not intended by the GMs.
>>There are many ways to avoid this situation. For example, have transferring mech first knock your crafting skill back down to some small value, such as 0 or 100. Or more severely: make a crafting skill not trainable until after you've transferred mech into it (or waived your chance to do so).
An even better way to avoid the situation is for people to stop coming up with selfish suggestions to screw over anyone who wants to wait for Enchanting and Alchemy to be released (for which there are very legitimate reasons to want to wait). The only fair way to avoid "double dipping" would be, as mentioned above, not splitting up Mech Lore until all 5 skills are fully trainable, but that is obviously not an option at this point.
Apu
_
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Apu
No it is not. If you care about only one specific skill out of the five crafting skills, to the point that you're going to train both Mech Lore and the Crafting skill simultaneously just to get a small bonus in extra exp bits, then are you REALLY going to willingly give yourself a 100% penalty to your only Crafting skill that you care about just for this small long-term advantage in exp bits, while also taking a massive hit to your ability to train all other skills (because trying to keep Mech Lore plus a Crafting skill moving simultaneously is going to be a nearly full time job). I will free admit that I am all for gaming the system to gain any unintended min/max advantage I can find - but honestly I would not ever do this half-baked "double dipping" training idea, because it is flat out NOT worth it.
People are overly worrying about a tiny long-term advantage that is balanced by an enormous short-term penalty, and apparently seem fine with including massively unfair long-term penalties to people who prefer to wait for Enchanting and Alchemy to come out before they decide where to put their ranks. Not surprisingly, this selfish attitude only comes from the people lucky enough for their favored crafting discipline to be released already, so they don't care about screwing over hundreds of players who legitimately want to wait to decide, just because in theory there might be one or two people out there who game the system for an advantage not intended by the GMs.
>>There are many ways to avoid this situation. For example, have transferring mech first knock your crafting skill back down to some small value, such as 0 or 100. Or more severely: make a crafting skill not trainable until after you've transferred mech into it (or waived your chance to do so).
An even better way to avoid the situation is for people to stop coming up with selfish suggestions to screw over anyone who wants to wait for Enchanting and Alchemy to be released (for which there are very legitimate reasons to want to wait). The only fair way to avoid "double dipping" would be, as mentioned above, not splitting up Mech Lore until all 5 skills are fully trainable, but that is obviously not an option at this point.
Apu
_
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Apu
>>I will free admit that I am all for gaming the system to gain any unintended min/max advantage I can find - but honestly I would not ever do this half-baked "double dipping" training idea, because it is flat out NOT worth it.
From my observation, crafting payouts are based on volume when it comes to work orders.
If you're not selling stuff to the player market, you're not at any penalty/loss/etc outside of temporarily not being able to make higher tier stuff.
Mix that with the fact that you'll be able to learn both your craft and mech at a bonused rate if your lore bonus pool is nice and the only thing keeping you from doing it is wanting to make (and possibly sell) higher tier stuff. If you're earning money strictly through the WO system, you're not going to have much of a loss.
I don't think there will be a lot of people who take advantage of this, but the argument of "no one will do this! it makes no sense! no one would ever see this as a productive us of a time!" are playing dumb. I'm not saying there's an easy solution for this that won't screw over people waiting for enchanting/alchemy by locking out future mech lore gain, but come on now.
That said, if there was a "dream" solution, it would be preventing crafting skill gains from the crafts out now until someone either converts some mech into that skill or opts out of training mech. That way, people either have to go "yes, I will put some skill into ::craft X:: now and start to train it as a legitimate skill" or train mech while waiting for the new skill to come out.
When in doubt, http://elanthipedia.org/
From my observation, crafting payouts are based on volume when it comes to work orders.
If you're not selling stuff to the player market, you're not at any penalty/loss/etc outside of temporarily not being able to make higher tier stuff.
Mix that with the fact that you'll be able to learn both your craft and mech at a bonused rate if your lore bonus pool is nice and the only thing keeping you from doing it is wanting to make (and possibly sell) higher tier stuff. If you're earning money strictly through the WO system, you're not going to have much of a loss.
I don't think there will be a lot of people who take advantage of this, but the argument of "no one will do this! it makes no sense! no one would ever see this as a productive us of a time!" are playing dumb. I'm not saying there's an easy solution for this that won't screw over people waiting for enchanting/alchemy by locking out future mech lore gain, but come on now.
That said, if there was a "dream" solution, it would be preventing crafting skill gains from the crafts out now until someone either converts some mech into that skill or opts out of training mech. That way, people either have to go "yes, I will put some skill into ::craft X:: now and start to train it as a legitimate skill" or train mech while waiting for the new skill to come out.
When in doubt, http://elanthipedia.org/
To those of you at the high end with only one skill to work, I understand there is a significant trade-off. In my case, however, I have very little interest in combat and intend to grab work orders from all available society, with the goal being always moving all of them. Those that I can practice outside of the society, I plan to train right next to my trusty pyramids, and any time I see more than 20/34 in the 5 craft skills...
>.fold
That's the plan, anyhow.
--Wryhk
1st grade tl;dr version:
Numbers didn't change. Words changed. Words don't matter. Numbers all that matters.
--GRIM45
>.fold
That's the plan, anyhow.
--Wryhk
1st grade tl;dr version:
Numbers didn't change. Words changed. Words don't matter. Numbers all that matters.
--GRIM45
>>I don't think there will be a lot of people who take advantage of this, but the argument of "no one will do this! it makes no sense! no one would ever see this as a productive us of a time!" are playing dumb.
I guarantee that I have put FAR more thought and analysis into min/maxing any advantage that I can out of the mech lore split than you or Caraamon have. All I can really say is that I dare either of you to do it, because I'd love to say "told you so" when you realize it was a waste of your time.
Sure, it will be worth it if your current Mech Lore skill is very low or for any new character created after 3.0 (of which I'm sure there will be many). If you only have a few hundred ranks of Mech Lore to transfer, then you aren't really losing much by giving yourself a 100% penalty. You do lose the ability to train much else besides Mech and Crafting, but that can be worth it if you are set on powertraining your Crafting skill up to a point where maybe you can enter the market and sell stuff. But, no offense intended - who the hell cares if people whose skills are too low to be relevant end up with a method to learn faster? It doesn't affect me, you or anyone else, so good for them.
This whole "double dipping" stuff is simply not the big deal that people are trying to pretend like it is. If your forging skill (because let's be honest, this is only about a handful of selfish people who care specifically about FORGING, and not anything else) is high enough to affect other people then there are massive disadvantages to the double dipping training approach, to the point that probably no one will ever do it. If your forging skill is low enough to make double dip training appealing, then it doesn't affect anyone else and there's no reason to consider screwing over every person who has an interest in Enchanting or Alchemy just to prevent some Forgers with very low skill from training a bit faster
Apu
_
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Apu
I guarantee that I have put FAR more thought and analysis into min/maxing any advantage that I can out of the mech lore split than you or Caraamon have. All I can really say is that I dare either of you to do it, because I'd love to say "told you so" when you realize it was a waste of your time.
Sure, it will be worth it if your current Mech Lore skill is very low or for any new character created after 3.0 (of which I'm sure there will be many). If you only have a few hundred ranks of Mech Lore to transfer, then you aren't really losing much by giving yourself a 100% penalty. You do lose the ability to train much else besides Mech and Crafting, but that can be worth it if you are set on powertraining your Crafting skill up to a point where maybe you can enter the market and sell stuff. But, no offense intended - who the hell cares if people whose skills are too low to be relevant end up with a method to learn faster? It doesn't affect me, you or anyone else, so good for them.
This whole "double dipping" stuff is simply not the big deal that people are trying to pretend like it is. If your forging skill (because let's be honest, this is only about a handful of selfish people who care specifically about FORGING, and not anything else) is high enough to affect other people then there are massive disadvantages to the double dipping training approach, to the point that probably no one will ever do it. If your forging skill is low enough to make double dip training appealing, then it doesn't affect anyone else and there's no reason to consider screwing over every person who has an interest in Enchanting or Alchemy just to prevent some Forgers with very low skill from training a bit faster
Apu
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http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Apu
>>Minor correction:
>>Enchanting, Alchemy AND Engineering.
Assuming you are intending to correct what I think you are referring to:
Outfitting and Engineering will be fully trainable, so people who mostly care about the unreleased disciplines in these two skills would not be nearly as screwed by all of the unnecessary "solutions" to the double dipping "problem", as people who mostly care about Alchemy and Enchanting. But it is true that there are very legitimate reasons to not immediately put ranks into Outfitting or Engineering if what you really care about are, say, lockpick carving, crossbow making, gemcutting, or whatever ends up as artistry. Sure you could risk it and throw all your ranks in there now and train the skill, but that is taking a large risk that your favored discipline will end up being as cool as you hoped, if it even gets released at all.
For simplification's sake I was focusing on just Alchemy and Enchanting, but these are just more reasons to ignore the selfish people complaining about forging double dipping.
Apu
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http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Apu
>>Enchanting, Alchemy AND Engineering.
Assuming you are intending to correct what I think you are referring to:
Outfitting and Engineering will be fully trainable, so people who mostly care about the unreleased disciplines in these two skills would not be nearly as screwed by all of the unnecessary "solutions" to the double dipping "problem", as people who mostly care about Alchemy and Enchanting. But it is true that there are very legitimate reasons to not immediately put ranks into Outfitting or Engineering if what you really care about are, say, lockpick carving, crossbow making, gemcutting, or whatever ends up as artistry. Sure you could risk it and throw all your ranks in there now and train the skill, but that is taking a large risk that your favored discipline will end up being as cool as you hoped, if it even gets released at all.
For simplification's sake I was focusing on just Alchemy and Enchanting, but these are just more reasons to ignore the selfish people complaining about forging double dipping.
Apu
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http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Apu
>>Outfitting and Engineering will be fully trainable, so people who mostly care about the unreleased disciplines in these two skills would not be nearly as screwed by all of the unnecessary "solutions" to the double dipping "problem", as people who mostly care about Alchemy and Enchanting. But it is true that there are very legitimate reasons to not immediately put ranks into Outfitting or Engineering if what you really care about are, say, lockpick carving, crossbow making, gemcutting, or whatever ends up as artistry. Sure you could risk it and throw all your ranks in there now and train the skill, but that is taking a large risk that your favored discipline will end up being as cool as you hoped, if it even gets released at all.
Ah, didn't realize carving was part of engineering.
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh
Ah, didn't realize carving was part of engineering.
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh
It's not so much that I dislike the double dipping (I do, but meh), it's the fact that the double dipping is restricted to those who basically don't use the skill for anything (or else they wouldn't do it).
I'd be all for a system in which you couldn't train a crafting skill without transferring mech to that skill or opting to lose the ability to transfer.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
I'd be all for a system in which you couldn't train a crafting skill without transferring mech to that skill or opting to lose the ability to transfer.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
>>I'd be all for a system in which you couldn't train a crafting skill without transferring mech to that skill or opting to lose the ability to transfer.
Of course you would be, because weaponsmithing is already released and you don't care how many other people get screwed over as long as some trivial issue that you are jealous about gets addressed.
Apu
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http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Apu
Of course you would be, because weaponsmithing is already released and you don't care how many other people get screwed over as long as some trivial issue that you are jealous about gets addressed.
Apu
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http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Apu
At the end of the day, there aren't any GOOD solutions. GMs seem to think double-dipping is the least bad option. To address Caraamon's complaint, we could ask that they blatantly encourage double-dipping by allowing as many transfers as you like up until mech ceases to be relevant. We could ask that they rush out quick, dirty, and useless methods of training the other skills, and eliminate mech immediately, not even sure this one is worthy of further discussion. We could ask that, rather than splitting mech, they simply pass out equivalent ranks in all 5 skills, then it doesn't matter. I am certain all these obvious ideas (and all of the other possibilities I've seen thus far) have been mulled over and went into consideration. This one is the least bad.
--Wryhk
1st grade tl;dr version:
Numbers didn't change. Words changed. Words don't matter. Numbers all that matters.
--GRIM45
--Wryhk
1st grade tl;dr version:
Numbers didn't change. Words changed. Words don't matter. Numbers all that matters.
--GRIM45
>we could ask that they blatantly encourage double-dipping by allowing as many transfers as you like up until mech ceases to be relevant.
Obviously, if they won't prevent it, this would be my preferred solution. If people are going to double dip, I want to be able to participate too.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
Obviously, if they won't prevent it, this would be my preferred solution. If people are going to double dip, I want to be able to participate too.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
Well I'm definitely in favor of a more liberal transfer scheme (which if I understood Socharis correctly, is what we are getting) for the reasons I laid out in my earlier post.
My Mech ranks are middling (currently 441--at least that's middling compared to the stratospheric standard of Apu and Caraamon ;) ) so while I could probably make some respectable sales in the middle segment of the crafting markets if I dumped it all into one skill, there's no way I will ever catch up with the top guys, at least not until they hit the skill caps.
The bigger issue IMO is that restricting when you can transfer Mech, or penalizing a "late" transfer by some kind of retroactive cap on ranks learned pre-transfer, would reduce Fun by discouraging training and enjoying the crafting systems that are live or will be live when the big conversion happens. This is a game after all. Restricting the split would leave mid-range-skilled (and lower?) people like me two un-Fun choices if we want to do any crafting above rank novice when 3.0 is released: either blindly dump skill into one of the existing systems, and possibly miss out on putting them in an unreleased system that we might like better; or sit out of the existing systems now because ranks will be nuked above a certain point if we choose to transfer mech later--if that system DOES end up being preferred once all systems are live and an intelligent choice can be made.
This point is especially meaningful for Lore primes because we get two careers. Crafting is a Lore system after all. So I think giving players maximum options is the way to go. I can't speak for what motivates anyone besides myself, but I would think that people who have been and are motivated to be the best, aren't going to suddenly lose that commitment because of an abstruse detail in the Mech Lore transfer mechanics.
~ Player of Farman et al.
My Mech ranks are middling (currently 441--at least that's middling compared to the stratospheric standard of Apu and Caraamon ;) ) so while I could probably make some respectable sales in the middle segment of the crafting markets if I dumped it all into one skill, there's no way I will ever catch up with the top guys, at least not until they hit the skill caps.
The bigger issue IMO is that restricting when you can transfer Mech, or penalizing a "late" transfer by some kind of retroactive cap on ranks learned pre-transfer, would reduce Fun by discouraging training and enjoying the crafting systems that are live or will be live when the big conversion happens. This is a game after all. Restricting the split would leave mid-range-skilled (and lower?) people like me two un-Fun choices if we want to do any crafting above rank novice when 3.0 is released: either blindly dump skill into one of the existing systems, and possibly miss out on putting them in an unreleased system that we might like better; or sit out of the existing systems now because ranks will be nuked above a certain point if we choose to transfer mech later--if that system DOES end up being preferred once all systems are live and an intelligent choice can be made.
This point is especially meaningful for Lore primes because we get two careers. Crafting is a Lore system after all. So I think giving players maximum options is the way to go. I can't speak for what motivates anyone besides myself, but I would think that people who have been and are motivated to be the best, aren't going to suddenly lose that commitment because of an abstruse detail in the Mech Lore transfer mechanics.
~ Player of Farman et al.
>You can train a crafting skill as high as you want before you put your mech lore into it, but since you can only convert your mech into another skill once, that might be a silly choice.
Socharis, I'm not sure if you're still following this thread, but I read your post to mean "yes, we will keep all learned crafting ranks after converting Mech into them, whenever that transfer occurs". After reading the subsequent comments, however, I realized that your statement doesn't actually say that.
We can train the crafting skill as high as we want before converting Mech into it, but will we keep all those ranks?
~ Player of Farman et al.
Socharis, I'm not sure if you're still following this thread, but I read your post to mean "yes, we will keep all learned crafting ranks after converting Mech into them, whenever that transfer occurs". After reading the subsequent comments, however, I realized that your statement doesn't actually say that.
We can train the crafting skill as high as we want before converting Mech into it, but will we keep all those ranks?
~ Player of Farman et al.
