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I understand why for Forging (and portions of engineering/outfitting) why mech no longer applies to learning techniques, but shouldn't it still work for the others, since when they come out, we would need to be able to play with them a bit before converting our mech?
> craft
You recall the crafting techniques you have learned.
You have not chosen a Career yet. You have not chosen a Hobby yet.
In the skilled trade of Forging, you can learn 0 techniques from any discipline, 0 techniques from the Blacksmithing Discipline, 0 techniques from the Armorsmithing Discipline and 0 techniques from the Weaponsmithing Discipline.
In the skilled trade of Engineering, you can learn 0 techniques from any discipline, 0 techniques from the Tinkering Discipline, 0 techniques from the Shaping Discipline and 0 techniques from the Carving Discipline.
In the skilled trade of Outfitting, you can learn 0 techniques from any discipline, 0 techniques from the Jewelry making Discipline, 0 techniques from the Tailoring Discipline and 0 techniques from the Artistry Discipline.
In the skilled trade of Alchemy, you can learn 0 techniques from any discipline, 0 techniques from the Remedies Discipline, 0 techniques from the Poisons Discipline and 0 techniques from the Cooking Discipline.
In the skilled trade of Enchanting, you can learn 0 techniques from any discipline, 0 techniques from the Runecrafting Discipline, 0 techniques from the Binding Discipline and 0 techniques from the Invoking Discipline.
> sk mech
SKILL: Rank/Percent towards next rank/Amount learning/Mindstate fraction
Mechanical Lore: 502 69.78% clear (0/34)
Time Development Points: -1604 Favors: 40 Deaths: 181 Departs: 19
Overall state of mind: clear
EXP HELP for more information
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh
>>we would need to be able to play with them a bit before converting our mech?
If we allowed mech to be used for learning techniques or making items, it would invalidate the entire system.
Nothing is stopping people from trying a system right now. The quality of what they make will be horrible if you have no skill, but they can still get a great idea of what is possible and how the crafting process works.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
If we allowed mech to be used for learning techniques or making items, it would invalidate the entire system.
Nothing is stopping people from trying a system right now. The quality of what they make will be horrible if you have no skill, but they can still get a great idea of what is possible and how the crafting process works.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
>>Nothing is stopping people from trying a system right now. The quality of what they make will be horrible if you have no skill, but they can still get a great idea of what is possible and how the crafting process works.
Then why is it allowed in prime?
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh
Then why is it allowed in prime?
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh
That's not how 3.0 has worked, from what I've seen described -- when the craft is out and usable, it uses the skill at that point.
I don't think there will be a big overlap period where people will be using mech OR the skill itself to do X craft. Is that what Kodius or Socharis were saying? If that's going to be the case then I misunderstood the plan.
Player of Ryken
---
"Life expectancy would grow by leaps and bounds if green vegetables smelled as good as bacon." ~ Doug Larson
AIM - RykenDR
I don't think there will be a big overlap period where people will be using mech OR the skill itself to do X craft. Is that what Kodius or Socharis were saying? If that's going to be the case then I misunderstood the plan.
Player of Ryken
---
"Life expectancy would grow by leaps and bounds if green vegetables smelled as good as bacon." ~ Doug Larson
AIM - RykenDR
>>That's not how 3.0 has worked, from what I've seen described -- when the craft is out and usable, it uses the skill at that point.
And I'm making the point that is the wrong way to do things.
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh
And I'm making the point that is the wrong way to do things.
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh
>>Gotcha. I don't agree, but it's a valid perspective.
TBQH I don't see how anyone can make the rational argument that to give smiths (black/weapon/armor), tailors and carvers such an extended preview, where they can test their limits in the system, learning strategies etc, based on their mech ranks, and not give it to the rest of the crafting disciplines is anyway fair or constructive.
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh
TBQH I don't see how anyone can make the rational argument that to give smiths (black/weapon/armor), tailors and carvers such an extended preview, where they can test their limits in the system, learning strategies etc, based on their mech ranks, and not give it to the rest of the crafting disciplines is anyway fair or constructive.
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh
>>TBQH I don't see how anyone can make the rational argument that to give smiths (black/weapon/armor), tailors and carvers such an extended preview, where they can test their limits in the system, learning strategies etc, based on their mech ranks, and not give it to the rest of the crafting disciplines is anyway fair or constructive.
Because the GMs didn't go "let's give black/weapon/armorsmithing, carving, and tailoring an extended preview" as much as they went "even though the 3.0 splits aren't here yet, let's get the crafts we can get out into the game as it is now instead of waiting for each and every discipline to come out at once"
When in doubt, http://elanthipedia.org/
Because the GMs didn't go "let's give black/weapon/armorsmithing, carving, and tailoring an extended preview" as much as they went "even though the 3.0 splits aren't here yet, let's get the crafts we can get out into the game as it is now instead of waiting for each and every discipline to come out at once"
When in doubt, http://elanthipedia.org/
I look at it as more of a "the time spent making previews work, with tech wipes tied to CONVERT, etc..." is probably better spent on actually making the skills/crafts available instead of a never-ending preview of each. It's more of a pragmatic "at some point, it needs to be the way it's supposed to be" focus instead of a "every craft gets 1+ years of equal preview time" sort of fairness approach.
I'd rather the GMs make it what it's supposed to be sooner, rather than stretch out development and add complexity just to account for previews, post 3.0. So the rational argument would be more focused on available resources, milestones/deadlines, and fairness of allowing other systems to get more development instead of crafting rather than just fairness of crafting itself as a primary concern.
But like I said, I can see a valid argument either way -- it just depends on your perspective I think.
Player of Ryken
---
"Life expectancy would grow by leaps and bounds if green vegetables smelled as good as bacon." ~ Doug Larson
AIM - RykenDR
I'd rather the GMs make it what it's supposed to be sooner, rather than stretch out development and add complexity just to account for previews, post 3.0. So the rational argument would be more focused on available resources, milestones/deadlines, and fairness of allowing other systems to get more development instead of crafting rather than just fairness of crafting itself as a primary concern.
But like I said, I can see a valid argument either way -- it just depends on your perspective I think.
Player of Ryken
---
"Life expectancy would grow by leaps and bounds if green vegetables smelled as good as bacon." ~ Doug Larson
AIM - RykenDR
>>Because the GMs didn't go "let's give black/weapon/armorsmithing, carving, and tailoring an extended preview" as much as they went "even though the 3.0 splits aren't here yet, let's get the crafts we can get out into the game as it is now instead of waiting for each and every discipline to come out at once"
Intent doesn't matter in this sense. Only outcome.
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh
Intent doesn't matter in this sense. Only outcome.
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh
>>Intent doesn't matter in this sense. Only outcome.
The outcome is that the GMs are probably already regretting that people in Prime are capable of making weapons, armors, and containers all using the same skill (albiet at some potential skill penalty). I doubt the solution would be to let them do so in even more systems.
When in doubt, http://elanthipedia.org/
The outcome is that the GMs are probably already regretting that people in Prime are capable of making weapons, armors, and containers all using the same skill (albiet at some potential skill penalty). I doubt the solution would be to let them do so in even more systems.
When in doubt, http://elanthipedia.org/
>>The outcome is that the GMs are probably already regretting that people in Prime are capable of making weapons, armors, and containers all using the same skill (albiet at some potential skill penalty). I doubt the solution would be to let them do so in even more systems.
Right. So of course the correct idea is to screw everyone else over who doesn't want to train smithing/outfitting/carving.
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh
Right. So of course the correct idea is to screw everyone else over who doesn't want to train smithing/outfitting/carving.
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh
Heh, yes because I get so much personal enjoyment out of screwing everyone over. :sigh:
It becomes incredibly complicated to do what you are asking for in code. I'd rather actually spend time on getting the new systems out, then detour for 6 months making sure people can use mech lore on them when they come out.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
It becomes incredibly complicated to do what you are asking for in code. I'd rather actually spend time on getting the new systems out, then detour for 6 months making sure people can use mech lore on them when they come out.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
>>Right. So of course the correct idea is to screw everyone else over who doesn't want to train smithing/outfitting/carving.
...wat?
They can train mech lore until the skill comes out. Then, they can dump that mech into the new skill, train that new skill from scratch, or whatever.
In the end, no one is going to be allowed to make high-end enchantments before deciding "yes, I want to make high end enchantments," and that's for the better for those who actually want to be dedicated to doing it.
When in doubt, http://elanthipedia.org/
...wat?
They can train mech lore until the skill comes out. Then, they can dump that mech into the new skill, train that new skill from scratch, or whatever.
In the end, no one is going to be allowed to make high-end enchantments before deciding "yes, I want to make high end enchantments," and that's for the better for those who actually want to be dedicated to doing it.
When in doubt, http://elanthipedia.org/
>It becomes incredibly complicated to do what you are asking for in code. I'd rather actually spend time on getting the new systems out, then detour for 6 months making sure people can use mech lore on them when they come out.
Do whatever is easiest. As far as being fair, I feel you've been more then fair, I like the crafting systems and I'd like to see more of them, and the appropriate skill to use them being able to be fully used.
---
"I think anything that forces you to do something no sane adventurer would do just in order to train is ridiculous."
DR-SOCHARIS
---
Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Victory of Lanival the Redeemer.
Do whatever is easiest. As far as being fair, I feel you've been more then fair, I like the crafting systems and I'd like to see more of them, and the appropriate skill to use them being able to be fully used.
---
"I think anything that forces you to do something no sane adventurer would do just in order to train is ridiculous."
DR-SOCHARIS
---
Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Victory of Lanival the Redeemer.
It seems like a 6 month detour for an unnecessary step is a waste. The systems that have been developed really do give me full faith and confidence in the uncoming ones. I'd like to hear about the planned implementation of poisons and remedies and cooking, maybe see them in action before devoting ranks to them, but they're going to be great. You're going to like them. Stop worrying about it.
--Wryhk
1st grade tl;dr version:
Numbers didn't change. Words changed. Words don't matter. Numbers all that matters.
--GRIM45
--Wryhk
1st grade tl;dr version:
Numbers didn't change. Words changed. Words don't matter. Numbers all that matters.
--GRIM45
>>Heh, yes because I get so much personal enjoyment out of screwing everyone over. :sigh:
I'll say it again, intent doesn't really matter here, only what the outcome is.
>>It becomes incredibly complicated to do what you are asking for in code. I'd rather actually spend time on getting the new systems out, then detour for 6 months making sure people can use mech lore on them when they come out.
How about using Socharis code to let us reset back to our mech skill for a limited number of times when a new crafting discipline is released?
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh
I'll say it again, intent doesn't really matter here, only what the outcome is.
>>It becomes incredibly complicated to do what you are asking for in code. I'd rather actually spend time on getting the new systems out, then detour for 6 months making sure people can use mech lore on them when they come out.
How about using Socharis code to let us reset back to our mech skill for a limited number of times when a new crafting discipline is released?
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh
>>I'll say it again, intent doesn't really matter here, only what the outcome is.
The solution to something being less-than-optimal isn't making it worse.
>>How about using Socharis code to let us reset back to our mech skill for a limited number of times when a new crafting discipline is released?
You don't need to make high tier items in order to realize if you like a system in not.
In fact, I'd bet that if people were going "well, I only want this craft for the one extremely difficult item at the end and no other reason, the GMs might want to reassess everything that comes before it.
When in doubt, http://elanthipedia.org/
The solution to something being less-than-optimal isn't making it worse.
>>How about using Socharis code to let us reset back to our mech skill for a limited number of times when a new crafting discipline is released?
You don't need to make high tier items in order to realize if you like a system in not.
In fact, I'd bet that if people were going "well, I only want this craft for the one extremely difficult item at the end and no other reason, the GMs might want to reassess everything that comes before it.
When in doubt, http://elanthipedia.org/
>>In fact, I'd bet that if people were going "well, I only want this craft for the one extremely difficult item at the end and no other reason, the GMs might want to reassess everything that comes before it.
That's not the only reason to need to have techs/actual skill available to test out a system. Rate of learning as well.
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh
That's not the only reason to need to have techs/actual skill available to test out a system. Rate of learning as well.
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh
>That's not the only reason to need to have techs/actual skill available to test out a system. Rate of learning as well.
Just so you know all of the crafting systems got put into test before they got released. I don't really get your argument either.
What I mean is, if the rate of learning is goofy with ML or with Tinkering what does it matter, other than that either way it should be tweaked.
---
"I think anything that forces you to do something no sane adventurer would do just in order to train is ridiculous."
DR-SOCHARIS
---
Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Victory of Lanival the Redeemer.
>>Just so you know all of the crafting systems got put into test before they got released. I don't really get your argument either.
Really? Enchanting and Alchemy are in test? Cause I haven't seen any announcement of it.
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh
Really? Enchanting and Alchemy are in test? Cause I haven't seen any announcement of it.
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh
>>That's not the only reason to need to have techs/actual skill available to test out a system. Rate of learning as well.
Could always test it out in test. I'm fine with them giving out ten billion in the skill in test.
>>Additionally, what I'm proposing ISN'T worse.
I think they'd disagree. Having mech continue being a universal crafting skill is definitely worse.
>>Really? Enchanting and Alchemy are in test? Cause I haven't seen any announcement of it.
Woosh.
When in doubt, http://elanthipedia.org/
Could always test it out in test. I'm fine with them giving out ten billion in the skill in test.
>>Additionally, what I'm proposing ISN'T worse.
I think they'd disagree. Having mech continue being a universal crafting skill is definitely worse.
>>Really? Enchanting and Alchemy are in test? Cause I haven't seen any announcement of it.
Woosh.
When in doubt, http://elanthipedia.org/
>>Could always test it out in test. I'm fine with them giving out ten billion in the skill in test.
>>I think they'd disagree. Having mech continue being a universal crafting skill is definitely worse.
If that is how it's planned to be done, then that is fine. Again, the goal is to give players access to the same exposure of new crafting skills that smithing/carving/tailoring got. I could care less about mech being used as a universal crafting skill for a limited time.
>>Woosh.
Not really. They aren't in Test. If 'you' are stating that all smithing/carving/tailoring got put into test so play players and community leaders could test prior to being put in prime, that's not really relevant, as a large majority of the game didn't have access to test during that time. Which is contrary to the entire point of this thread.
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh
>>I think they'd disagree. Having mech continue being a universal crafting skill is definitely worse.
If that is how it's planned to be done, then that is fine. Again, the goal is to give players access to the same exposure of new crafting skills that smithing/carving/tailoring got. I could care less about mech being used as a universal crafting skill for a limited time.
>>Woosh.
Not really. They aren't in Test. If 'you' are stating that all smithing/carving/tailoring got put into test so play players and community leaders could test prior to being put in prime, that's not really relevant, as a large majority of the game didn't have access to test during that time. Which is contrary to the entire point of this thread.
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh
>>Again, the goal is to give players access to the same exposure of new crafting skills that smithing/carving/tailoring got.
They'll have the same exposure with 0 ranks as they would with 1,000 ranks.
Once you can craft a very easy item, you know how the system works.
>>I could care less about mech being used as a universal crafting skill for a limited time.
I'm aware that you could care less, but letting the market get flooded with items being crafted with ur-mech instead of specific crafting skills, even for a limited time, is a bad thing.
It really just sounds like you want people to be able to make high end things with mech without having to commit to a skill, because "it's only fair".
That's not how it should work.
When in doubt, http://elanthipedia.org/
They'll have the same exposure with 0 ranks as they would with 1,000 ranks.
Once you can craft a very easy item, you know how the system works.
>>I could care less about mech being used as a universal crafting skill for a limited time.
I'm aware that you could care less, but letting the market get flooded with items being crafted with ur-mech instead of specific crafting skills, even for a limited time, is a bad thing.
It really just sounds like you want people to be able to make high end things with mech without having to commit to a skill, because "it's only fair".
That's not how it should work.
When in doubt, http://elanthipedia.org/
>>They'll have the same exposure with 0 ranks as they would with 1,000 ranks.
>>Once you can craft a very easy item, you know how the system works.
That's not even close to being remotely accurate and you know it.
>>It really just sounds like you want people to be able to make high end things with mech without having to commit to a skill, because "it's only fair".
Right. Because me agreeing that throwing it into the Test instance (and making sure everyone still has access to Test) totally backs that up.
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh
>>Once you can craft a very easy item, you know how the system works.
That's not even close to being remotely accurate and you know it.
>>It really just sounds like you want people to be able to make high end things with mech without having to commit to a skill, because "it's only fair".
Right. Because me agreeing that throwing it into the Test instance (and making sure everyone still has access to Test) totally backs that up.
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh
>>That's not even close to being remotely accurate and you know it.
It's pretty accurate in my experiences.
>>Right. Because me agreeing that throwing it into the Test instance (and making sure everyone still has access to Test) totally backs that up.
The fact that you're all over the place isn't my concern.
When in doubt, http://elanthipedia.org/
It's pretty accurate in my experiences.
>>Right. Because me agreeing that throwing it into the Test instance (and making sure everyone still has access to Test) totally backs that up.
The fact that you're all over the place isn't my concern.
When in doubt, http://elanthipedia.org/
>>It's pretty accurate in my experiences.
That explains so much.
>>The fact that you're all over the place isn't my concern.
I've been 100% consistent with my reasons for asking for this. If you don't think so, I invite you to go back and actually read the thread.
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh
That explains so much.
>>The fact that you're all over the place isn't my concern.
I've been 100% consistent with my reasons for asking for this. If you don't think so, I invite you to go back and actually read the thread.
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh
>>"I get so much personal enjoyment out of screwing everyone over."- GM Kodius
I'm gonna save that right next to "Everyone listen to POWERHAUS."-GM Solomon
_________________________________
An agonizing pain fills you as you feel your tongue turn to powder in your mouth! Through a haze of uncertainty and loss, you realize that something you just said was very wrong.
I'm gonna save that right next to "Everyone listen to POWERHAUS."-GM Solomon
_________________________________
An agonizing pain fills you as you feel your tongue turn to powder in your mouth! Through a haze of uncertainty and loss, you realize that something you just said was very wrong.
>hmm. like what happened with forging in prime?
Yes. Grr.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
Yes. Grr.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
>hmm. like what happened with forging in prime?
>Yes. Grr.
Puh-leeeze. There was a massive penalty in place to stop people from flooding the market with forged goods off pure mech lore skill. Once 3.0 hits, I'll be able to make way more stuff than I can make now (for weapons and armor anyways, not true for tools)
Apu
_
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Apu
>Yes. Grr.
Puh-leeeze. There was a massive penalty in place to stop people from flooding the market with forged goods off pure mech lore skill. Once 3.0 hits, I'll be able to make way more stuff than I can make now (for weapons and armor anyways, not true for tools)
Apu
_
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Apu
