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>>Teveshszat: We could easily use a similar argument for why Paladins shouldn't have lost armor crafting bonuses, Rangers losing arrange all, etc. In the end, opening it up to everyone else while also removing the automatic boon from those guilds didn't always improve things for everyone, but they were still done to give value to the crafting techniques as a whole.
I really don't see how opening up crafting to everyone is analogous to substantially increasing NPC repair times.
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I really don't see the need to mess with the NPC shops at all. If you make it more expensive, it hurts new characters. If you make it take longer, it makes the game boring. So long as the self repair thing is made faster, I think that'd do the trick. We can speculate all day at how many keebler elves are tinkering in the repair shop vs the one empath that sucks so badly at the NPC healer joint that he hasn't made it past circle 20, but I don't think it'll get anywhere constructive in the long run. Aso, Caraamon only uses tools, so he has no vote on the other gear taking longer to repair IMO. <3
"Brace yourselves, Squanto is going to bleh blah fart fart bleh.." -the player of the character formerly known as Pureblade
"Brace yourselves, Squanto is going to bleh blah fart fart bleh.." -the player of the character formerly known as Pureblade
>>I really don't see how opening up crafting to everyone is analogous to substantially increasing NPC repair times.
I view it as changing a system that already existed for a certain amount of time to reflect the new way of wanting things to progress.
I know there was more to crafting than just that, but that's why certain older systems were eventually changed: to reflect the new way of thinking about the game.
>>If you make it take longer, it makes the game boring.
IMO, only if you view combat as the only thing to do in the game. My understanding is that GMs want people to sometimes not be in combat and do other things, which is partially why they've expanded on things to do outside of combat.
>>So long as the self repair thing is made faster, I think that'd do the trick.
How much faster can it be? It's already 10-15 seconds per action with a total of 2 actions needed. 5-10 seconds? 3-5? Wouldn't it still always lose out to NPCs repairs because those are always 2 minutes at the first tier of damage no matter how many items you place for repair at once, now and forever?
I just don't find it crazy unreasonable to have an NPC acknowledge the difference between repairing one thing and infinity things, since a PC will always have to do that, no matter how small the RTs for repair get.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
I view it as changing a system that already existed for a certain amount of time to reflect the new way of wanting things to progress.
I know there was more to crafting than just that, but that's why certain older systems were eventually changed: to reflect the new way of thinking about the game.
>>If you make it take longer, it makes the game boring.
IMO, only if you view combat as the only thing to do in the game. My understanding is that GMs want people to sometimes not be in combat and do other things, which is partially why they've expanded on things to do outside of combat.
>>So long as the self repair thing is made faster, I think that'd do the trick.
How much faster can it be? It's already 10-15 seconds per action with a total of 2 actions needed. 5-10 seconds? 3-5? Wouldn't it still always lose out to NPCs repairs because those are always 2 minutes at the first tier of damage no matter how many items you place for repair at once, now and forever?
I just don't find it crazy unreasonable to have an NPC acknowledge the difference between repairing one thing and infinity things, since a PC will always have to do that, no matter how small the RTs for repair get.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
>>Teveshszat: IMO, only if you view combat as the only thing to do in the game.
I have plenty to do outside of combat. I still don't think that "the new way of wanting things to progress" should be making things more tedious overall.
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I have plenty to do outside of combat. I still don't think that "the new way of wanting things to progress" should be making things more tedious overall.
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
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>>IMO, only if you view combat as the only thing to do in the game. My understanding is that GMs want people to sometimes not be in combat and do other things, which is partially why they've expanded on things to do outside of combat.
I do a ton more than combat. That said, 30 mins to fix all my used gear if I do the repairs is cray cray, as the kids say. I'll have to time the oil, but that part is stupid long because of crap quality.
>>I just don't find it crazy unreasonable to have an NPC acknowledge the difference between repairing one thing and infinity things, since a PC will always have to do that, no matter how small the RTs for repair get.
Kodius stated this would likely not be messed with, so it's probably more constructive to focus on what can be tweaked. So far as RTs, I think stuff like more readily available masterful quality supplies would go a long way. Also, oil takes too long to apply. I'll run repair tests when I ge home for RTs.
"Brace yourselves, Squanto is going to bleh blah fart fart bleh.." -the player of the character formerly known as Pureblade
I do a ton more than combat. That said, 30 mins to fix all my used gear if I do the repairs is cray cray, as the kids say. I'll have to time the oil, but that part is stupid long because of crap quality.
>>I just don't find it crazy unreasonable to have an NPC acknowledge the difference between repairing one thing and infinity things, since a PC will always have to do that, no matter how small the RTs for repair get.
Kodius stated this would likely not be messed with, so it's probably more constructive to focus on what can be tweaked. So far as RTs, I think stuff like more readily available masterful quality supplies would go a long way. Also, oil takes too long to apply. I'll run repair tests when I ge home for RTs.
"Brace yourselves, Squanto is going to bleh blah fart fart bleh.." -the player of the character formerly known as Pureblade
>>I have plenty to do outside of combat. I still don't think that "the new way of wanting things to progress" should be making things more tedious overall.
I don't think the idea of any increase in repair times when you repair multiple things at once would necessarily be more tedious.
As I said, I think there's a reasonable middle ground between "two minutes" and "infinity".
I just think there should be some difference, any difference, between having one sword repaired and infinity swords repaired.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
I don't think the idea of any increase in repair times when you repair multiple things at once would necessarily be more tedious.
As I said, I think there's a reasonable middle ground between "two minutes" and "infinity".
I just think there should be some difference, any difference, between having one sword repaired and infinity swords repaired.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
What is the point of having item damage and need of repair? Until that question is answered, then arguments about how long repair should take are lacking a lot of context.
Tools are one thing and the purpose to them getting damaged is obvious, but what about combat gear?
If the purpose of damage really is to get people out of combat, that's one thing, if it's to try to make durable gear more appealing, that's another.
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Tools are one thing and the purpose to them getting damaged is obvious, but what about combat gear?
If the purpose of damage really is to get people out of combat, that's one thing, if it's to try to make durable gear more appealing, that's another.
Weapons for Sale:
https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/User:CARAAMON#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
>>If the purpose of damage really is to get people out of combat, that's one thing, if it's to try to make durable gear more appealing, that's another.
Fair enough. Since all guilds are now combat guilds, why get people out of combat? RP is optional and not required for circling purposes. Even if you look at the wounds system as a reason to get people out of combat so they can interact with other people in RP situations, it's a bomb. There's hardly ever healers around when one needs them (no offense to empaths). The autohealers do the trick and offer 0 RP immersion. NPC repair does not require much time investment, either. 0 RP immersion. What's the benefit of forcing people out of combat? Either a robot repairs your gear or you do it yourself. Regarding durability, this also is a bomb. I have gear that is nearly impervious to damage and gets all dinged up about as fast as anything else.
I think there's too much over-thinking this crap. Clearly one thing is certain: player repair RTs are too long. Again, I don't think it's wise messing with repair shop times, because you make things less fun for the vast majority of people. Hardly anyone is going to agree to more repair time.
"Brace yourselves, Squanto is going to bleh blah fart fart bleh.." -the player of the character formerly known as Pureblade
Fair enough. Since all guilds are now combat guilds, why get people out of combat? RP is optional and not required for circling purposes. Even if you look at the wounds system as a reason to get people out of combat so they can interact with other people in RP situations, it's a bomb. There's hardly ever healers around when one needs them (no offense to empaths). The autohealers do the trick and offer 0 RP immersion. NPC repair does not require much time investment, either. 0 RP immersion. What's the benefit of forcing people out of combat? Either a robot repairs your gear or you do it yourself. Regarding durability, this also is a bomb. I have gear that is nearly impervious to damage and gets all dinged up about as fast as anything else.
I think there's too much over-thinking this crap. Clearly one thing is certain: player repair RTs are too long. Again, I don't think it's wise messing with repair shop times, because you make things less fun for the vast majority of people. Hardly anyone is going to agree to more repair time.
"Brace yourselves, Squanto is going to bleh blah fart fart bleh.." -the player of the character formerly known as Pureblade
>Why? Better armor is better. If you want to stick it to the man by wearing crossing armor while your super duper awesome armor is in the shop, I don't think anyone is going to feel like you tricked them.
Because the discussion isn't "Tier 6 Armor sets repair too fast." You're saying all armor should take more time to repair. Unless tier is relevant and you are only lobbying for high tier armor to take longer, you're grabbing at straws. Your argument includes suggesting staff wants to take people out of combat more so let's increase repair time. Your argument is countered by people carrying multiple sets of armor or hunting with less durability before repairing. Tier is irrelevant to the conversation because any player can have a backup armor set putting them right back into combat, making this a futile attempt.
>Not defense or offense, at least. Maybe looking pretty, that can work.
If you say so.
>I see it the same way I see the chances of being hit/getting wounds going up over time. It's so people would eventually leave combat and do something else.
News to me, didn't realize staff was trying to force people away from doing what they enjoyed. Here I thought it was to give Empaths healing relevance, and to introduce some form of risk to combat instead of 100% mob immunity. Why not just cap combat experience gains on a daily basis to get people out doing other things they may not want to do.
>Get healed, sit around town, do some lore, etc. In the end, I don't believe GMs liked that someone could show up in combat and grind for 12 hours+ without a break.
But it's ok to grind 12 hours with a few 30 second breaks to run off, get healed, and go back to hunting?
Amiron says, "Even a mute would have said something about this amount of people being about."
Because the discussion isn't "Tier 6 Armor sets repair too fast." You're saying all armor should take more time to repair. Unless tier is relevant and you are only lobbying for high tier armor to take longer, you're grabbing at straws. Your argument includes suggesting staff wants to take people out of combat more so let's increase repair time. Your argument is countered by people carrying multiple sets of armor or hunting with less durability before repairing. Tier is irrelevant to the conversation because any player can have a backup armor set putting them right back into combat, making this a futile attempt.
>Not defense or offense, at least. Maybe looking pretty, that can work.
If you say so.
>I see it the same way I see the chances of being hit/getting wounds going up over time. It's so people would eventually leave combat and do something else.
News to me, didn't realize staff was trying to force people away from doing what they enjoyed. Here I thought it was to give Empaths healing relevance, and to introduce some form of risk to combat instead of 100% mob immunity. Why not just cap combat experience gains on a daily basis to get people out doing other things they may not want to do.
>Get healed, sit around town, do some lore, etc. In the end, I don't believe GMs liked that someone could show up in combat and grind for 12 hours+ without a break.
But it's ok to grind 12 hours with a few 30 second breaks to run off, get healed, and go back to hunting?
Amiron says, "Even a mute would have said something about this amount of people being about."
> I'll have to time the oil, but that part is stupid long because of crap quality.
>So far as RTs, I think stuff like more readily available masterful quality supplies would go a long way.
Hear hear. I really think it'd be cool to go back as a short-term project to offer up player-made templates to replace the store-bought-only mats in crafts which have the skills available to produce them. Oil/Alchemy, Pins/Blacksmithing, Chickens/Necromancy, etc.
>So far as RTs, I think stuff like more readily available masterful quality supplies would go a long way.
Hear hear. I really think it'd be cool to go back as a short-term project to offer up player-made templates to replace the store-bought-only mats in crafts which have the skills available to produce them. Oil/Alchemy, Pins/Blacksmithing, Chickens/Necromancy, etc.
>>>>Not defense or offense, at least. Maybe looking pretty, that can work.
>>If you say so.
I do! Damaged armor protects worse. Damaged weapons damage worse.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
>>If you say so.
I do! Damaged armor protects worse. Damaged weapons damage worse.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
I think the obvious solution here is to allow EVERYONE to repair items as they are now, and allow techs to unlock REPAIR ALL for players where for the same amount of RT it takes players to do one piece without them, you can just be done repairing your stuff.
You can repair your stuff if you're far away from a shop, techs or no. You can repair stuff BETTER than a a shop with techs.
- Starlear, Warrior Mage and Lieutenant of Ilithi's Crystal Vanguard -
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You can repair your stuff if you're far away from a shop, techs or no. You can repair stuff BETTER than a a shop with techs.
- Starlear, Warrior Mage and Lieutenant of Ilithi's Crystal Vanguard -
- I maintain the Warrior Mage Beginner's Guide at:
https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Beginner%27s_Warrior_Mage_Guide
>>Any time, it's very evident how much testing you've done on the matter.
Well, less testing and more believing GMs when they say "armor and weapon damage will result in those things performing worse than before".
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
Well, less testing and more believing GMs when they say "armor and weapon damage will result in those things performing worse than before".
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
It would also help if repair granted some experience in the appropriate skill. Skill gains based upon total damage repaired would make the repair techs quite valuable.
--Wryhk
"If you want total security, go to prison. There you're fed, clothed, given medical care and so on. The only thing lacking... is freedom." ~Dwight D. Eisenhower
--Wryhk
"If you want total security, go to prison. There you're fed, clothed, given medical care and so on. The only thing lacking... is freedom." ~Dwight D. Eisenhower
>>>> It would also help if repair granted some experience in the appropriate skill. Skill gains based upon total damage repaired would make the repair techs quite valuable.
I have a suspicion that that would also mean that there would need to be some sort of skill check involved in the repair attempt and possible some consequence for failing.
I have a suspicion that that would also mean that there would need to be some sort of skill check involved in the repair attempt and possible some consequence for failing.
>>I have a suspicion that that would also mean that there would need to be some sort of skill check involved in the repair attempt and possible some consequence for failing.
There is a skill check but AFAIK the consequence is just wasting your oil/brush charges.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
There is a skill check but AFAIK the consequence is just wasting your oil/brush charges.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
Why not make the skill check a determinate to RT and degree of success. Low skill? With all the techs it takes 4 repairs to take an item from destroyed to like new. High skill? You can repair your stuff in 4 repairs without any techniques.
--Wryhk
"If you want total security, go to prison. There you're fed, clothed, given medical care and so on. The only thing lacking... is freedom." ~Dwight D. Eisenhower
--Wryhk
"If you want total security, go to prison. There you're fed, clothed, given medical care and so on. The only thing lacking... is freedom." ~Dwight D. Eisenhower
<<You end up with people with a lot of worthless tech slots
This will very likely not happen since there are approximately 90 techniques in a given skill and even with careers and hobbies someone won't even come close to having enough slots to be able to choose all of them. There's more than enough selection to be able to select the more useful techniques within each discipline. For a career or hobby this is potentially more of a concern, but still not that big of one since you only have to spend the career or hobby's technique slots within that discipline and the other 13 techniques from skill can be used on the skill's more useful techniques from it's other disciplines.
<<or techs.
This won't happen, since you can always forget a technique once it becomes useless from skill assuming it isn't needed for a desired and useful tech further along its tree. In which case that technique can be considered part of the other's cost.
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
This will very likely not happen since there are approximately 90 techniques in a given skill and even with careers and hobbies someone won't even come close to having enough slots to be able to choose all of them. There's more than enough selection to be able to select the more useful techniques within each discipline. For a career or hobby this is potentially more of a concern, but still not that big of one since you only have to spend the career or hobby's technique slots within that discipline and the other 13 techniques from skill can be used on the skill's more useful techniques from it's other disciplines.
<<or techs.
This won't happen, since you can always forget a technique once it becomes useless from skill assuming it isn't needed for a desired and useful tech further along its tree. In which case that technique can be considered part of the other's cost.
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
I've thought about it but just don't have the time to work on it right now. I'm also deep into a number of non-crafting related projects. We'll just have to see what happens.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
>>Too many techs already become useless as you gain skill.
This is more because there aren't many items that require a base skill of 1,500 yet.
If you want to make daggers and only daggers, yeah, the tech you use to make better daggers diminishes as skill increases. Eventually, you won't even need it when using super rare 1 workability metal.
But then that extremely difficult gore dagger template comes along and you want to make it in ultra-ore...
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
This is more because there aren't many items that require a base skill of 1,500 yet.
If you want to make daggers and only daggers, yeah, the tech you use to make better daggers diminishes as skill increases. Eventually, you won't even need it when using super rare 1 workability metal.
But then that extremely difficult gore dagger template comes along and you want to make it in ultra-ore...
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
>>But then that extremely difficult gore dagger template comes along and you want to make it in ultra-ore...
And that's fine for those techs that make crafting items easier, but the idea of moving repair techs to the same model is a bad idea IMO. It does nothing to make them more useful, only less.
And that's fine for those techs that make crafting items easier, but the idea of moving repair techs to the same model is a bad idea IMO. It does nothing to make them more useful, only less.
>>The club tech is also necessary to get the throwing hammer tech and the mattock tech. And the bastard sword tech.
And when you can mastercraft the bastard sword without the tech in any metal then what are those techs worth, other than a waste of plats and slots?
Why do the same to repair techs?
And when you can mastercraft the bastard sword without the tech in any metal then what are those techs worth, other than a waste of plats and slots?
Why do the same to repair techs?
>>And when you can mastercraft the bastard sword without the tech in any metal then what are those techs worth, other than a waste of plats and slots?
Why do the same to repair techs?<<
You know, this is an interesting thing you are hitting on. Without techs, you can eventually make pretty much any weapon in say... HCS at least (I am thinking of super hard templates, because obviously you would be able to make a glaes dagger). Without balancing and tempering techs, you cannot balance or temper at all (same goes for lightening and reinforcing, and stuff like that); it's all or nothing. Without the repair techs, you can repair, but you have insanely long RTs and it takes a ton of tries. Repair techs are a very oddball group.
"Brace yourselves, Squanto is going to bleh blah fart fart bleh.." -the player of the character formerly known as Pureblade
Why do the same to repair techs?<<
You know, this is an interesting thing you are hitting on. Without techs, you can eventually make pretty much any weapon in say... HCS at least (I am thinking of super hard templates, because obviously you would be able to make a glaes dagger). Without balancing and tempering techs, you cannot balance or temper at all (same goes for lightening and reinforcing, and stuff like that); it's all or nothing. Without the repair techs, you can repair, but you have insanely long RTs and it takes a ton of tries. Repair techs are a very oddball group.
"Brace yourselves, Squanto is going to bleh blah fart fart bleh.." -the player of the character formerly known as Pureblade
Repair times do not need to be increased, they are fine as they are.
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I don't really see a problem with the time for repairing armor/weapons/tools. How about keeping the time as it stands, but increasing the learning from repairing gear? Make it so thirty-minutes of gear repair locks forging. Or make it learning based in relation to the material of the gear; rares mats = more learning than common mats.
--Just a Squire
--Just a Squire
