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As for the enchantments themselves, I would prefer we have a good balance of Guild-only to Everyone-can-use. What follows is a sleep-deprived brain dump of something I was working on all day. It is one of three possible design paths I've come up with.
Keep in mind that for a single enchantment, different sigils can be used to get different results and many will be very, very bad.
Elemental Malice Enchantments -
Sigil Combination A - Fire Damage
Sigil Combo B - Cold Damage
Sigil Combo C - Electrical Damage
Sigil ... D* - Aether (All types) Damage
Sigil ... E - Your item explodes
Sigil F - Your body explodes
Sigil X - Blackfire, ugh oh?
Lunar Malice -
Sigil D - Cold and Impact Damage
Sigil E - Fire and Impact Damage
Sigil F* - Cold and Fire Damage
Sigil A - Your item explodes
Sigil B - A shadowling eats your face
Sigil C - Pegleg knocks on your door
Sigil X - Shadow Damage
Holy Malice -
Sigil E* - Allows 70% damage to incorporeal undead on hit
Sigil F - Fire and Puncture Damage
Sigil A - Cold and Electrical Damage
Sigil B - You lose a favor
Sigil C - Your item becomes cursed
Sigil D - A Welkin appears and smacks you
Sigil X -
Life Malice -
Sigil B - Cold and Slice Damage
Sigil C - *Fire and Electrical Damage
Sigil D - Electrical and Impact Damage
Sigil F - You grow excessive body hair
Sigil G - Bees. Oh God, the bees!
Sigil H - Whoops, time to hibernate...
AP Malice -
Sigil F - Fire and Puncture damage
Sigil A - Electrical and Puncture damage
Sigil B - Cold and Slice damage
Sigil C - Ribbit
Sigil D - OOOoooOOooOOOOoOO!
Sigil E - Teleport - Zing!
* denotes something you'd need to be able to use that mana type to enchant successfully.
And then the same ones but for weapon procs (chance to fire bonus damage on-hit).
Then each mana type will have a category for procs that are spell based, but weak enough for anyone to enchant. And then a category for procs that are Signature.
Then each mana type will have a category for weak spells inside the item that everyone can enchant.
Then each mana type will have a category for stronger spells that are all signature.
Then a bunch of fluff categories of various strengths. Some for fluff verbs, others for pulsing atmo effects, and some fluff messages that proc re-actively (someone looking at you, someone casting on you).
Then you have racial enemy enchantments like goblin killing or construct smashing.
Then you have weapon enchantments that give combat bonuses for a short time when used. Mixture of signature and common.
Then you have a catch-all for things like improved durability, lowering weight, reducing RT, and so on that most folks can use.
Beyond that you hit more complicated systems like sentient weapons, weapons that build up a charge with use and can then be unleashed, and weapons that can fight alongside you...
The trick will be balancing these so more than 1 or 2 are popular.
As for Sigil A, B, C, that is kind of a simplification. I imagine it being more like -
Induction = +20% fire damage
Abolution = you implode
Congruence = +20% electrical damage
Permutation = +20% cold damage
Rarefication = 5% fire/electrical/cold
combined with
Paradox = +10% more fire damage
Nurture = you implode, or if Abolution your item explodes
Congruence = random effect
Evolution = random effect
Antipode = +10% more cold damage
Decay = your item explodes, or if Abolution you explode
Ascension = +10% electrical damage
Unity = Guild Only special
Clarification = Guild Only special
So the recipe would say -
(1) Any metal, stone or bone weapon
(1) Induction sigil
(1) Enchanting fount
(1) Congruence sigil
(1) Primary sigils
(1) Complex sigil
And it is the last 2 sigils that effect the end result. My goal is to make a core that allows for many outcomes from a single enchantment. There would be no "fire shard" enchantment. It'd be elemental entrapment, and the sigil combination determines if you try to put fire shard, fire ball, shockwave, lightning bolt or air lash into it - but only if you know the spell or have some other pre-requisite (techniques may allow you to get 1st tier non-signature spells).
Durr, wish I hadn't worked all day and had more time to sort through this better. Posting helps me organize my thoughts and get feedback at the same time though!
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
Wow, lots of information there Kodius. Sounds complex and awesome!
And I'm sure this isn't what you wanted someone to focus on, but please...pretty, pretty please make sure this happens. I am still cleaning up the coffee from my monitor after the sudden burst of laughter when I read it as a life-mana option:
>Sigil G - Bees. Oh God, the bees!
I can just imagine the sales pitch on something now:
"This dagger has the most amazing, melt the face off any enemy, powerful enchantment you can possibly imagine. There's just one TINY little side effect..."
(and yes, still chortling)
~Kythryn
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
And I'm sure this isn't what you wanted someone to focus on, but please...pretty, pretty please make sure this happens. I am still cleaning up the coffee from my monitor after the sudden burst of laughter when I read it as a life-mana option:
>Sigil G - Bees. Oh God, the bees!
I can just imagine the sales pitch on something now:
"This dagger has the most amazing, melt the face off any enemy, powerful enchantment you can possibly imagine. There's just one TINY little side effect..."
(and yes, still chortling)
~Kythryn
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
I'm not the biggest fan of enchanting resulting in potential item/self destruction unless it's something that can be overcome with more skill.
I'd rather see shoddy enchanting result in a really terrible (or non-functional) enchantment similar to how anyone could craft a silversteel katana, but most people won't like how poorly it comes out.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
I'd rather see shoddy enchanting result in a really terrible (or non-functional) enchantment similar to how anyone could craft a silversteel katana, but most people won't like how poorly it comes out.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
See, I read that as "enchant throwing knife to explode." Which, as someone that wants more ways to light things on fire/blow stuff up, I'm stoked. But, I'm known to read into stuff and seeing only what I want.
"Men rarely (if ever) manage to dream up a god superior to themselves. Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child." -Heinlein
"Men rarely (if ever) manage to dream up a god superior to themselves. Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child." -Heinlein
Kodius, this looks pretty neat. I'm excited.
The one part that confuses me is the names of the sigils. I definitely love the original names and was looking forward to figuring out what they would mean in the system. As your list stands though, I can't figure out why Induction would be +20% fire damage, etc. Maybe there's no good way to do it though.
Personally I would do something like this (for weapon enchanting):
Induction [bring into being] - add elemental damage
Abolition [destroy] - add mundane damage
Congruence [align two things] - used when adding multiple damage types
Permutation [alter an existing thing] - used when altering an existing enchantment
Rarefaction [refine or purify] - used when removing aspects (which might be used when increasing other aspects)
Complex sigils (e.g., Paradox, which is Induction + Abolition) I might make more difficult to use but have stronger effects, with more variance. And more chance of bees.
Disjunct sigils (guild-only sigils like the Paladins' Justice sigil) would be for adding the guild-specific effects. You could also consider having individual Fire and Puncture sigils, etc., but when combined with the right guild-only sigil, they would take hold to better effect. For example, anyone could try to put two pure Fire sigils plus an Induction sigil to add serious fire damage, but if you add the Warrior Mage or Bard sigil, it will be more potent. These would follow your list -- Elemental users are good at pure fire, Lunar at Cold + Impact, etc.
Finally, I really like the idea you mentioned of some more rare sigils that will do things like improve "workability". Maybe some that will add random "bonus" effects.
So here are a couple of examples of recipes using my system:
Fire + Impact + Induction + Abolition = +3 fire, +3 impact damage
Fire + Impact + Paradox = chance for +4 fire, +4 impact or +2 fire, +2 impact, extra chance of self-disintegration
Fire x 2 + Induction = +4 fire
Fire x 2 + Induction + Conjuration (WM sigil) = +5 fire
Fire x 2 + Induction + Rarefaction = +5 fire, -1 random mundane damage
-- Player of Eyuve
The one part that confuses me is the names of the sigils. I definitely love the original names and was looking forward to figuring out what they would mean in the system. As your list stands though, I can't figure out why Induction would be +20% fire damage, etc. Maybe there's no good way to do it though.
Personally I would do something like this (for weapon enchanting):
Induction [bring into being] - add elemental damage
Abolition [destroy] - add mundane damage
Congruence [align two things] - used when adding multiple damage types
Permutation [alter an existing thing] - used when altering an existing enchantment
Rarefaction [refine or purify] - used when removing aspects (which might be used when increasing other aspects)
Complex sigils (e.g., Paradox, which is Induction + Abolition) I might make more difficult to use but have stronger effects, with more variance. And more chance of bees.
Disjunct sigils (guild-only sigils like the Paladins' Justice sigil) would be for adding the guild-specific effects. You could also consider having individual Fire and Puncture sigils, etc., but when combined with the right guild-only sigil, they would take hold to better effect. For example, anyone could try to put two pure Fire sigils plus an Induction sigil to add serious fire damage, but if you add the Warrior Mage or Bard sigil, it will be more potent. These would follow your list -- Elemental users are good at pure fire, Lunar at Cold + Impact, etc.
Finally, I really like the idea you mentioned of some more rare sigils that will do things like improve "workability". Maybe some that will add random "bonus" effects.
So here are a couple of examples of recipes using my system:
Fire + Impact + Induction + Abolition = +3 fire, +3 impact damage
Fire + Impact + Paradox = chance for +4 fire, +4 impact or +2 fire, +2 impact, extra chance of self-disintegration
Fire x 2 + Induction = +4 fire
Fire x 2 + Induction + Conjuration (WM sigil) = +5 fire
Fire x 2 + Induction + Rarefaction = +5 fire, -1 random mundane damage
-- Player of Eyuve
The danger of making sigil interactions too complicated, is the system will quite literally never get finished :P I'd rather start small and work our way up. It will be about 40 hours of coding for each Enchantment. With 200 enchantments on the table, I'll need a man-year to even dent it...
Enchantment isn't going to mimic the mixing system. It really can't because the Core doesn't support an infinitely fluid number of Sigil combinations. And Lohkrian's guidelines for what the theme behind Sigils are was just that, a theme for the backstory and roleplay. It won't allow us to make a balanced system if the theme guides all the design decisions.
One of my designs is very similar to what you have listed there. But with our current resources and the limitations of the engine - it would never get created :( I still need to get Artificing done before I can move onto Weapon Enchanting. Let's see how that goes first :)
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
Enchantment isn't going to mimic the mixing system. It really can't because the Core doesn't support an infinitely fluid number of Sigil combinations. And Lohkrian's guidelines for what the theme behind Sigils are was just that, a theme for the backstory and roleplay. It won't allow us to make a balanced system if the theme guides all the design decisions.
One of my designs is very similar to what you have listed there. But with our current resources and the limitations of the engine - it would never get created :( I still need to get Artificing done before I can move onto Weapon Enchanting. Let's see how that goes first :)
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
That's okay Kodius. You can only do what you can do!
It's hard to understand sometimes, from the player side, just what will take a million hours or resources. I'm just here to suggest what I think would be really cool. :)
>>Enchantment isn't going to mimic the mixing system. It really can't because the Core doesn't support an infinitely fluid number of Sigil combinations.
You know, I am curious. Why is it that mixing works for the Forging system but not Enchanting? Would it be possibly to copy over the Forging code and treat sigils more like ores? I am not trying to start a Craft v. Craft war, just wondering!
>>It won't allow us to make a balanced system if the theme guides all the design decisions.
On this point I might disagree with you. What I proposed was, at least for weapon enchanting, balanced based exactly on the list you proposed. I really do think balance would be possible. (But then, without resources it's moot.)
>>I still need to get Artificing done before I can move onto Weapon Enchanting. Let's see how that goes first :)
I'm looking forward to hearing what Artificing will be like.
-- Player of Eyuve
It's hard to understand sometimes, from the player side, just what will take a million hours or resources. I'm just here to suggest what I think would be really cool. :)
>>Enchantment isn't going to mimic the mixing system. It really can't because the Core doesn't support an infinitely fluid number of Sigil combinations.
You know, I am curious. Why is it that mixing works for the Forging system but not Enchanting? Would it be possibly to copy over the Forging code and treat sigils more like ores? I am not trying to start a Craft v. Craft war, just wondering!
>>It won't allow us to make a balanced system if the theme guides all the design decisions.
On this point I might disagree with you. What I proposed was, at least for weapon enchanting, balanced based exactly on the list you proposed. I really do think balance would be possible. (But then, without resources it's moot.)
>>I still need to get Artificing done before I can move onto Weapon Enchanting. Let's see how that goes first :)
I'm looking forward to hearing what Artificing will be like.
-- Player of Eyuve
Well for one thing I don't want Enchanting to just be a re-skinning mixing system. Different systems appeal to different play styles. Mixing is easier because its just a math formula. Sigil mixing would be a nightmare. I'd have to duplicate forging's mixing system many times over because most every enchantment would do something fundamentally different with each type of Sigil.
The other reason is memory usage. You take an item's memory footprint, add in the storage for metal mixing, then all the crafting memory used, and combine it with another enchanting mixing system, and embellishing someday, and it starts becoming an issue.
What would you do with the spell enchantments? I don't see how you'd possibly balance sigils in a logical manner there? Fire Shard = What Sigil and what Sigil? Seems rather subjective, and would be too much room for folks to disagree about what Sigils should result in which outcomes.
Another reason for keeping it simpler is Work Orders. Forging work orders are beyond stupid right now. Solid platinum broadswords should not be awarding the biggest payout, but its another mountain of effort to write a framework for addressing that. I'd rather keep the base system more logical, than hacking in patches after the fact.
Anyhow, I'm hoping the end result is complicated and flexible enough so folks enjoy it, and spend many hours learning its intricacies (with many deaths by misadventure!)
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
The other reason is memory usage. You take an item's memory footprint, add in the storage for metal mixing, then all the crafting memory used, and combine it with another enchanting mixing system, and embellishing someday, and it starts becoming an issue.
What would you do with the spell enchantments? I don't see how you'd possibly balance sigils in a logical manner there? Fire Shard = What Sigil and what Sigil? Seems rather subjective, and would be too much room for folks to disagree about what Sigils should result in which outcomes.
Another reason for keeping it simpler is Work Orders. Forging work orders are beyond stupid right now. Solid platinum broadswords should not be awarding the biggest payout, but its another mountain of effort to write a framework for addressing that. I'd rather keep the base system more logical, than hacking in patches after the fact.
Anyhow, I'm hoping the end result is complicated and flexible enough so folks enjoy it, and spend many hours learning its intricacies (with many deaths by misadventure!)
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
I eagerly await it, from a purely academic stance. I'm with Magdar, magic ain't for me.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Life Malice -
Sigil B - Cold and Slice Damage
Sigil C - *Fire and Electrical Damage
Sigil D - Electrical and Impact Damage
Sigil F - You grow excessive body hair
Sigil G - Bees. Oh God, the bees!
Sigil H - Whoops, time to hibernate...
heh. I shall have to create a gor'tog ranger. Specifically for Sigil F. :-)
You see a non-bald Gor-tog. EEEEEEEK!
<<If I can't cast thunderclap, you can't summon the dark lord of the abyss to devour the flesh of the innocent>>
Sigil B - Cold and Slice Damage
Sigil C - *Fire and Electrical Damage
Sigil D - Electrical and Impact Damage
Sigil F - You grow excessive body hair
Sigil G - Bees. Oh God, the bees!
Sigil H - Whoops, time to hibernate...
heh. I shall have to create a gor'tog ranger. Specifically for Sigil F. :-)
You see a non-bald Gor-tog. EEEEEEEK!
<<If I can't cast thunderclap, you can't summon the dark lord of the abyss to devour the flesh of the innocent>>
