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A lighter that lets you label scrolls.
>A lighter that lets you label scrolls.
I hope that once enchanting launches you'll just be able to label your scroll with a quill or stylus.
Vote:
http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
I hope that once enchanting launches you'll just be able to label your scroll with a quill or stylus.
Vote:
http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
I finished up Sigil books last night. This is how they currently look -
>read book
You page through the book to see what scrolls it contains.
Sigil Contents
Page 1: congruence - thin - distinct Page 2: congruence - thick - crystalline
Page 3: rarefaction - ethereal - crude Page 4: rarefaction - thick - immaculate
Page 5: metamorphosis - ethereal - clear Page 6: metamorphosis - ethereal - clear
Page 7: metamorphosis - thick - crystalline Page 8: evolution - delicate - rough
Page 9: evolution - thin - clear Page 10: unity - ethereal - immaculate
Page 11: unity - broad - blurry Page 12: unity - broad - blurry
Page 13: justice - thick - detailed
>
Books can hold about 30 sigils each, and auto-sort them by Sigil type and by Precision (rarity). You just PUT the sigil-scrolls into the book to add them. To remove them you turn the book to the page, and pull the book. It auto-sorts upon removal.
I don't plan on having sigil scrolls require marking or other hoops to jump through. In exchange, harvesting them will have similar "difficulties" as mining...
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
>read book
You page through the book to see what scrolls it contains.
Sigil Contents
Page 1: congruence - thin - distinct Page 2: congruence - thick - crystalline
Page 3: rarefaction - ethereal - crude Page 4: rarefaction - thick - immaculate
Page 5: metamorphosis - ethereal - clear Page 6: metamorphosis - ethereal - clear
Page 7: metamorphosis - thick - crystalline Page 8: evolution - delicate - rough
Page 9: evolution - thin - clear Page 10: unity - ethereal - immaculate
Page 11: unity - broad - blurry Page 12: unity - broad - blurry
Page 13: justice - thick - detailed
>
Books can hold about 30 sigils each, and auto-sort them by Sigil type and by Precision (rarity). You just PUT the sigil-scrolls into the book to add them. To remove them you turn the book to the page, and pull the book. It auto-sorts upon removal.
I don't plan on having sigil scrolls require marking or other hoops to jump through. In exchange, harvesting them will have similar "difficulties" as mining...
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
Ugh, that didn't format so well. Its displayed side-by side like crafting books. Neat like :P
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
>>Ugh, that didn't format so well. Its displayed side-by side like crafting books. Neat like :P
Hacked way of fixing it slightly.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
Hacked way of fixing it slightly.
| Page 1: congruence - thin - distinct | Page 2: congruence - thick - crystalline |
| Page 3: rarefaction - ethereal - crude | Page 4: rarefaction - thick - immaculate |
| Page 5: metamorphosis - ethereal - clear | Page 6: metamorphosis - ethereal - clear |
| Page 7: metamorphosis - thick - crystalline | Page 8: evolution - delicate - rough |
| Page 9: evolution - thin - clear | Page 10: unity - ethereal - immaculate |
| Page 11: unity - broad - blurry | Page 12: unity - broad - blurry |
| Page 13: justice - thick - detailed |
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
Darn forums ate my last post :(
Today has been a good day of exercise, and through it I think the basics of sigil harvesting have firmed up. Please let me know what you think!
* Any enchanter can go to a room and SEARCH SIGIL to kickoff the process
* Sigil harvesting will use the foraging skill, though feats will be available under Artificing to improve it
* Sigils have clarity, precision, complexity and amplitude
- clarity is quality
- precision is rarity
- complexity is difficulty modifier for harvesting
- amplitude determines where each sigil can be found
* Each room will be capable of producing one primary and one secondary sigil
* The mana type, biome and time of day will affect what 2 sigils are found in each area
* Enchanters can then STUDY PRIMARY/SECONDARY SIGIL To begin the harvesting process
* A random precision is rolled at this point (It is a bell curve around 20 precision)
* Enchanters can then begin SCRIBE SCROLL with BURIN several times to record it down. This will be only slightly dangerous.
* Enchanters can alternatively WAVE a seekstone around to attempt to locate new sigil types. This will increase the DANGER COUNTER.
* Players can also use the seekstone to better reveal the sigil structure they are attempting to scribe. This will increase the precision in exchange for increasing the DANGER COUNTER
* Disasters will be similar to mining in terms of potency. However, there will not be a way to avoid them with careful timing.
So this presents the player with the ability to control their own difficulty. If you take the initial precision, the danger is negligible. If you try for a higher precision, better cross your fingers. You might start at 80 precision. Do you take it safely? Or do you risk going for 99..!?
* Enchanters of any skill will be able to harvest all sigils. However, it will take more steps and be potentially more dangerous if they try for higher precision.
Phase 2 will introduce mana-type specific harvesting. Moon mages using telescopes and studying the constellations. Holy mana users praying at altars or something. These alternate systems will allow more flexibility and cool factor.
Any thoughts about this?
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
Today has been a good day of exercise, and through it I think the basics of sigil harvesting have firmed up. Please let me know what you think!
* Any enchanter can go to a room and SEARCH SIGIL to kickoff the process
* Sigil harvesting will use the foraging skill, though feats will be available under Artificing to improve it
* Sigils have clarity, precision, complexity and amplitude
- clarity is quality
- precision is rarity
- complexity is difficulty modifier for harvesting
- amplitude determines where each sigil can be found
* Each room will be capable of producing one primary and one secondary sigil
* The mana type, biome and time of day will affect what 2 sigils are found in each area
* Enchanters can then STUDY PRIMARY/SECONDARY SIGIL To begin the harvesting process
* A random precision is rolled at this point (It is a bell curve around 20 precision)
* Enchanters can then begin SCRIBE SCROLL with BURIN several times to record it down. This will be only slightly dangerous.
* Enchanters can alternatively WAVE a seekstone around to attempt to locate new sigil types. This will increase the DANGER COUNTER.
* Players can also use the seekstone to better reveal the sigil structure they are attempting to scribe. This will increase the precision in exchange for increasing the DANGER COUNTER
* Disasters will be similar to mining in terms of potency. However, there will not be a way to avoid them with careful timing.
So this presents the player with the ability to control their own difficulty. If you take the initial precision, the danger is negligible. If you try for a higher precision, better cross your fingers. You might start at 80 precision. Do you take it safely? Or do you risk going for 99..!?
* Enchanters of any skill will be able to harvest all sigils. However, it will take more steps and be potentially more dangerous if they try for higher precision.
Phase 2 will introduce mana-type specific harvesting. Moon mages using telescopes and studying the constellations. Holy mana users praying at altars or something. These alternate systems will allow more flexibility and cool factor.
Any thoughts about this?
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
<<* Each room will be capable of producing one primary and one secondary sigil
Can we do both before moving on, or do we have to choose one? Also, it wasn't clear from your post, but I assume this isn't every room in the game? Similar to mines we will have to travel to a sigil-rich area?
<<- amplitude determines where each sigil can be found
Can you expand on this? What will the amplitude stat look like to us? How does this interact with the mana type, biome, and time of day below?
<<* The mana type, biome and time of day will affect what 2 sigils are found in each area
Can you clarify what you mean by mana type? The room's mana type? The searcher's mana type?
Can we do both before moving on, or do we have to choose one? Also, it wasn't clear from your post, but I assume this isn't every room in the game? Similar to mines we will have to travel to a sigil-rich area?
<<- amplitude determines where each sigil can be found
Can you expand on this? What will the amplitude stat look like to us? How does this interact with the mana type, biome, and time of day below?
<<* The mana type, biome and time of day will affect what 2 sigils are found in each area
Can you clarify what you mean by mana type? The room's mana type? The searcher's mana type?
>* Any enchanter can go to a room and SEARCH SIGIL to kickoff the process
Any particular reasons why 'search?' As I type this, I realize I can't think of a better verb, but compared to forage and prospect it's somehow lackluster. Weird complaint, I know.
And how does this work for Barbarians and Thieves? (or does it just not work? Repurpose for trader mana loupes?)
>* Sigil harvesting will use the foraging skill, though feats will be available under Artificing to improve it
This seems a very rough change from Arcana. Outdoorsmanship should probably be renamed to 'Harvesting' if it continues down this path.
>Forgive my snark, but welcome to the life of a warrior mage.
Any particular reasons why 'search?' As I type this, I realize I can't think of a better verb, but compared to forage and prospect it's somehow lackluster. Weird complaint, I know.
And how does this work for Barbarians and Thieves? (or does it just not work? Repurpose for trader mana loupes?)
>* Sigil harvesting will use the foraging skill, though feats will be available under Artificing to improve it
This seems a very rough change from Arcana. Outdoorsmanship should probably be renamed to 'Harvesting' if it continues down this path.
>Forgive my snark, but welcome to the life of a warrior mage.
>>Sigil harvesting will use the foraging skill
So I think I understand why you'd want foraging to be the harvesting skill. When I think of a sigil I think magic and I think arcana to harvest them. What are sigils that makes a mundane, not magical, skill able to collect them?
>>Sigils have clarity, precision, complexity and amplitude
Which of those will determine workability or is that aspect of crafting not going to work the same way with Enchanting.
>>The mana type, biome and time of day will affect what 2 sigils are found in each area
I'm kinda iffy on the time of day aspect, but that's just me and hating the idea of waiting for a specific time of day to access something. I also hate Shard shops and would make a poor Moon Mage.
Biome based is cool and this echo's into herb foraging as well, but could we get a command so we can see what the biome of a room is? I know that it should make sense from room descriptions, but it'd be a nice QOL thing to add in general.
So I think I understand why you'd want foraging to be the harvesting skill. When I think of a sigil I think magic and I think arcana to harvest them. What are sigils that makes a mundane, not magical, skill able to collect them?
>>Sigils have clarity, precision, complexity and amplitude
Which of those will determine workability or is that aspect of crafting not going to work the same way with Enchanting.
>>The mana type, biome and time of day will affect what 2 sigils are found in each area
I'm kinda iffy on the time of day aspect, but that's just me and hating the idea of waiting for a specific time of day to access something. I also hate Shard shops and would make a poor Moon Mage.
Biome based is cool and this echo's into herb foraging as well, but could we get a command so we can see what the biome of a room is? I know that it should make sense from room descriptions, but it'd be a nice QOL thing to add in general.
I too am a bit mystified at Outdoorsmanship being the gathering skill for Enchanting. One one hand it makes sense, since it is the gathering skill for all other crafts and disciplines. But on the other hand it seems quite disconnected from the concept of Enchanting.
What is the mechanism for SEARCH SIGIL anyway? Are we literally travelling to some ruins and looking around for a physical sigil that happens to be still intact on some wall or in some burned out book? If it works that way then I can see that part being based on Outdoorsmanship, I suppose. I assume the more guild based ways of discovering sigils would be more magical in nature given the examples you cited, so perhaps those will use Astrology, Theurgy, etc. while the mundane way anyone can gather a sigil is through Outdoorsmanship?
What is the mechanism for SEARCH SIGIL anyway? Are we literally travelling to some ruins and looking around for a physical sigil that happens to be still intact on some wall or in some burned out book? If it works that way then I can see that part being based on Outdoorsmanship, I suppose. I assume the more guild based ways of discovering sigils would be more magical in nature given the examples you cited, so perhaps those will use Astrology, Theurgy, etc. while the mundane way anyone can gather a sigil is through Outdoorsmanship?
<<I too am a bit mystified at Outdoorsmanship being the gathering skill for Enchanting. One one hand it makes sense, since it is the gathering skill for all other crafts and disciplines. But on the other hand it seems quite disconnected from the concept of Enchanting.
How about a compromise? Use the higher of arcana or outdoorsmanship. Everyone wins.
How about a compromise? Use the higher of arcana or outdoorsmanship. Everyone wins.
>> Sigils
A sigil is nothing more than a pattern: a shape represented some way in space. Sigils as a form of communication existed long before enchanting came into practice, conveying complex magical concepts in ways that language could not. The discovery of materials that serve as a conduit for magical energy, however, enabled the evolution of the sigil into something much more.
Initial sigils were flat, but only the simplest magical constructs function in two dimensions. Sigil design adjusted to accommodate this. Some sigils varied in depth and width. Some meandered vertically, or wrapped their plane around three-dimensional structures. As purely magical sigils were developed, some altered their level of magical conductivity, or even altered their distance from adjoining planes. By combining two or more sigils, still more effects could be achieved.
I am torn on the skill requirement as well. On one hand, NMUs are unlikely to have many Arcana ranks. They are currently hard/impossible to train outside of classes. On another, I kind of want Foraging to be the go-to gathering skill (wish I could rename it). Arcana also means understanding and activating magical devices, and sigils are not magical devices. The only way this would make sense if is I required use of the seeking stone (but then how did the first enchanters discover sigils in the first place?)
>> location
Any room will be usable for sigil harvesting. You are finding the sigil representation in "the world", so limiting it to select areas doesn't make sense.
>>Can we do both before moving on
You can harvest multiple times (either sigil) from the same room, but the DANGER COUNTER will go up at some point. I estimate 3-4 harvests before you move on.
Unlike mining, the counter will only apply to you. No more walking into a room and having it be primed for disaster. Unless other people are present AND harvesting at the same time. Then some spectacular things can happen.
>> Time of Day
As I said, you can change the sigils available to be harvested if you are willing to take a slight risk.
>>Can you expand on this?
Amplitude ranges from 1-99.
A sigil aspected to life with a high amplitude be more likely to be found in a high life mana, high nature room during the day. Something like that. The intent is to produce a somewhat random distribution gamewide, but with specific distribution in local areas.
>> Workability
Enchantments have a base size. Materials have a capacity. The ratio of size to capacity sets the workability, until the size exceeds the capacity. Then you go boom if you try to enchant it.
Founts have a size modifier. The mana used with the imbue process is another size modifier.
Size + ModFount + ModImbue = Final Size. Must be <= Material Capacity or Boom!
This gives the enchanter control over how hard a process will be. Making runes with 1 charge and a cooldown will be much easier and can be done on more common materials, than 10 charge runes with no cooldown. Obviously some PAFO will be required to figure out your own limits.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
A sigil is nothing more than a pattern: a shape represented some way in space. Sigils as a form of communication existed long before enchanting came into practice, conveying complex magical concepts in ways that language could not. The discovery of materials that serve as a conduit for magical energy, however, enabled the evolution of the sigil into something much more.
Initial sigils were flat, but only the simplest magical constructs function in two dimensions. Sigil design adjusted to accommodate this. Some sigils varied in depth and width. Some meandered vertically, or wrapped their plane around three-dimensional structures. As purely magical sigils were developed, some altered their level of magical conductivity, or even altered their distance from adjoining planes. By combining two or more sigils, still more effects could be achieved.
I am torn on the skill requirement as well. On one hand, NMUs are unlikely to have many Arcana ranks. They are currently hard/impossible to train outside of classes. On another, I kind of want Foraging to be the go-to gathering skill (wish I could rename it). Arcana also means understanding and activating magical devices, and sigils are not magical devices. The only way this would make sense if is I required use of the seeking stone (but then how did the first enchanters discover sigils in the first place?)
>> location
Any room will be usable for sigil harvesting. You are finding the sigil representation in "the world", so limiting it to select areas doesn't make sense.
>>Can we do both before moving on
You can harvest multiple times (either sigil) from the same room, but the DANGER COUNTER will go up at some point. I estimate 3-4 harvests before you move on.
Unlike mining, the counter will only apply to you. No more walking into a room and having it be primed for disaster. Unless other people are present AND harvesting at the same time. Then some spectacular things can happen.
>> Time of Day
As I said, you can change the sigils available to be harvested if you are willing to take a slight risk.
>>Can you expand on this?
Amplitude ranges from 1-99.
A sigil aspected to life with a high amplitude be more likely to be found in a high life mana, high nature room during the day. Something like that. The intent is to produce a somewhat random distribution gamewide, but with specific distribution in local areas.
>> Workability
Enchantments have a base size. Materials have a capacity. The ratio of size to capacity sets the workability, until the size exceeds the capacity. Then you go boom if you try to enchant it.
Founts have a size modifier. The mana used with the imbue process is another size modifier.
Size + ModFount + ModImbue = Final Size. Must be <= Material Capacity or Boom!
This gives the enchanter control over how hard a process will be. Making runes with 1 charge and a cooldown will be much easier and can be done on more common materials, than 10 charge runes with no cooldown. Obviously some PAFO will be required to figure out your own limits.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
<<Amplitude ranges from 1-99.
<<A sigil aspected to life with a high amplitude be more likely to be found in a high life mana, high nature room during the day. Something like that. The intent is to produce a somewhat random distribution gamewide, but with specific distribution in local areas.
Okay that makes more sense to me now, although it does bring up a question. How will lunar magic interact with this? There's no such thing as high lunar rooms, so will sigils change globally based on the lunar mana levels at the time?
<<A sigil aspected to life with a high amplitude be more likely to be found in a high life mana, high nature room during the day. Something like that. The intent is to produce a somewhat random distribution gamewide, but with specific distribution in local areas.
Okay that makes more sense to me now, although it does bring up a question. How will lunar magic interact with this? There's no such thing as high lunar rooms, so will sigils change globally based on the lunar mana levels at the time?
What if using the seeking stone used Arcana, and searching alone used Foraging? Searching was going to be slower and not as flexible as using the seeking stone anyways. I figure the original enchanters just fumbled around until they got it right. Then later they made fancy tools to improve the process.
An Arcana check for reading a sigil scroll would break the entire foundation of the enchanting system. A Tier 1 enchantment can potentially have any sigil on it. Requiring even 200 ranks of arcana to read the sigil and apply it would force players to grind for a year just to begin using the enchanting system. It is a gate that the other 12 Disciplines do not have.
So, I was planning on having studying a sigil scroll be an enchanting skill check. Perhaps arcana can bonus it, much like appraisal bonuses crafting skill for the purposes of analyzing crafted items?
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
An Arcana check for reading a sigil scroll would break the entire foundation of the enchanting system. A Tier 1 enchantment can potentially have any sigil on it. Requiring even 200 ranks of arcana to read the sigil and apply it would force players to grind for a year just to begin using the enchanting system. It is a gate that the other 12 Disciplines do not have.
So, I was planning on having studying a sigil scroll be an enchanting skill check. Perhaps arcana can bonus it, much like appraisal bonuses crafting skill for the purposes of analyzing crafted items?
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
> What if using the seeking stone used Arcana, and searching alone used Foraging? Searching was going to be slower and not as flexible as using the seeking stone anyways. I figure the original enchanters just fumbled around until they got it right. Then later they made fancy tools to improve the process.
That sounds nifty.
I'm not entirely clear on what sigil harvesting represents, though. Are we plumbing the mana streams, or taking inspiration from the shape of a cloud?
> An Arcana check for reading a sigil scroll would break the entire foundation of the enchanting system. A Tier 1 enchantment can potentially have any sigil on it. Requiring even 200 ranks of arcana to read the sigil and apply it would force players to grind for a year just to begin using the enchanting system. It is a gate that the other 12 Disciplines do not have.
Sorry, I was talking about spell scrolls (which are made up of sigils). It was just an example of Arcana currently interacting with sigils, not suggesting that sigil scrolls should require Arcana.
That sounds nifty.
I'm not entirely clear on what sigil harvesting represents, though. Are we plumbing the mana streams, or taking inspiration from the shape of a cloud?
> An Arcana check for reading a sigil scroll would break the entire foundation of the enchanting system. A Tier 1 enchantment can potentially have any sigil on it. Requiring even 200 ranks of arcana to read the sigil and apply it would force players to grind for a year just to begin using the enchanting system. It is a gate that the other 12 Disciplines do not have.
Sorry, I was talking about spell scrolls (which are made up of sigils). It was just an example of Arcana currently interacting with sigils, not suggesting that sigil scrolls should require Arcana.
>I am torn on the skill requirement as well. On one hand, NMUs are unlikely to have many Arcana ranks. They are currently hard/impossible to train outside of classes. On another, I kind of want Foraging to be the go-to gathering skill (wish I could rename it). Arcana also means understanding and activating magical devices, and sigils are not magical devices. The only way this would make sense if is I required use of the seeking stone (but then how did the first enchanters discover sigils in the first place?)
The beauty of magic is that it can be used to justify anything. How'd they find those first sigils? Magic! The sigil gave off some emmanation that wasn't ordinary but not necessarily magic in nature and the MU's picked it up somehow which led them to the physical object.
On the NMU side of things, they just noticed clues in the environment in order to find it, without the magic.
So I could see a split in how the two sides find them. The MU's now rely on their magic training (Arcana) to locate the sigil, and the NMU's still look for physical clues in the environment to locate them.
Even if you still just go with straight Outdoorsmanship, that's fine by me. If you go with Arcana, also fine by me as well, even if I don't know quite as much as a NMU.
Perhaps DETECT SIGIL could be the verb used to start things off.
Blackguard Danoryiel
"Sogan udazama umbunor fau arrazoi inishatu seiremisai. (Only the fallen have nothing to despair)"
The beauty of magic is that it can be used to justify anything. How'd they find those first sigils? Magic! The sigil gave off some emmanation that wasn't ordinary but not necessarily magic in nature and the MU's picked it up somehow which led them to the physical object.
On the NMU side of things, they just noticed clues in the environment in order to find it, without the magic.
So I could see a split in how the two sides find them. The MU's now rely on their magic training (Arcana) to locate the sigil, and the NMU's still look for physical clues in the environment to locate them.
Even if you still just go with straight Outdoorsmanship, that's fine by me. If you go with Arcana, also fine by me as well, even if I don't know quite as much as a NMU.
Perhaps DETECT SIGIL could be the verb used to start things off.
Blackguard Danoryiel
"Sogan udazama umbunor fau arrazoi inishatu seiremisai. (Only the fallen have nothing to despair)"
>On another, I kind of want Foraging to be the go-to gathering skill (wish I could rename it). Arcana also means understanding and activating magical devices, and sigils are not magical devices.
This is somewhat / badly out of date. When Magical Devices as renamed Arcana, the skill was redefined as representing your character's theoretical knowledge about magic, with magical devices falling under that as a subset of magical lore. Arcana subsequently replaced scholarship for most magic-related knowledge checks.
But I further don't see the design propriety in one go-to gathering skill -- we already have Skinning feeding into Outfitting, it's worth noting -- and the design will be healthier in terms of (re)playability if there's more variety, especially when resource gathering is A) optional and B) a suite of systems in their own right, some of which currently have more depth than some of the crafting systems they supply.
Outdoorsmanship for sigil harvesting (and really as an ur-harvesting skill) just rings too jarringly of MMORPG design, solid but ill-fitting with Dragonrealms.
All that said, I would actually suggest scholarship over Arcana.
>Forgive my snark, but welcome to the life of a warrior mage.
This is somewhat / badly out of date. When Magical Devices as renamed Arcana, the skill was redefined as representing your character's theoretical knowledge about magic, with magical devices falling under that as a subset of magical lore. Arcana subsequently replaced scholarship for most magic-related knowledge checks.
But I further don't see the design propriety in one go-to gathering skill -- we already have Skinning feeding into Outfitting, it's worth noting -- and the design will be healthier in terms of (re)playability if there's more variety, especially when resource gathering is A) optional and B) a suite of systems in their own right, some of which currently have more depth than some of the crafting systems they supply.
Outdoorsmanship for sigil harvesting (and really as an ur-harvesting skill) just rings too jarringly of MMORPG design, solid but ill-fitting with Dragonrealms.
All that said, I would actually suggest scholarship over Arcana.
>Forgive my snark, but welcome to the life of a warrior mage.
The original concept was for sigil scribing to be non-magical in nature. You are studying "the world" - be it planets, a holy relic, a blade of grass, the way a shadow hits a rock, ripples in the water - and using it as inspiration to create an abstract representation on the scroll. These sigils are so incredibly complicated (represented in and representing of multiple dimensions - including time) that a person cannot simply memorize or copy them.
Studying sigils requires you to leave the laboratory and venture out into nature hunting for these things. That sure seems like there is some Outdoorsmanship component. Like how is studying the stars a purely magical thing? Or studying lava bubbles in a volcano? Or praying to the immortals? Those all involve complex, diverse actions that ultimately result in you copying a complex geometric thing on a piece of paper.
Arcana seems too much "I know how to use X so I should be good at making X". So, perhaps scholarship makes more sense. Just not sure yet.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
Studying sigils requires you to leave the laboratory and venture out into nature hunting for these things. That sure seems like there is some Outdoorsmanship component. Like how is studying the stars a purely magical thing? Or studying lava bubbles in a volcano? Or praying to the immortals? Those all involve complex, diverse actions that ultimately result in you copying a complex geometric thing on a piece of paper.
Arcana seems too much "I know how to use X so I should be good at making X". So, perhaps scholarship makes more sense. Just not sure yet.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
>>Arcana seems too much "I know how to use X so I should be good at making X". So, perhaps scholarship makes more sense. Just not sure yet.
I'd be a fan of it using scholarship, arcana, and appraisal, similar to how mining uses outdoorsmanship, perception, and appraisal.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
I'd be a fan of it using scholarship, arcana, and appraisal, similar to how mining uses outdoorsmanship, perception, and appraisal.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
>>I am torn on the skill requirement as well.
I think you can make it work either way. Might take a bit of hand waving, but meh so what. When you think about what the process of harvesting sigils is, more a mystical thing or a mundane thing, and let that direct you into what skill it should use. Yeah it'll hurt to be a NMU and have it tied to arcana, but, hey now they have a way to train arcana!
Everything else looks fantastic though. Great work!
I think you can make it work either way. Might take a bit of hand waving, but meh so what. When you think about what the process of harvesting sigils is, more a mystical thing or a mundane thing, and let that direct you into what skill it should use. Yeah it'll hurt to be a NMU and have it tied to arcana, but, hey now they have a way to train arcana!
Everything else looks fantastic though. Great work!
Scholarship seems the best fit because the teaching/literacy aspect of it neatly relates to capturing some representation of the physical world and communicating it to somebody else. Scholarship also needs more uses, and it's not like you can use Artistry.
>I'd be a fan of it using scholarship, arcana, and appraisal, similar to how mining uses outdoorsmanship, perception, and appraisal.
Scholarship, arcana, and outdoorsmanship?
>Forgive my snark, but welcome to the life of a warrior mage.
>I'd be a fan of it using scholarship, arcana, and appraisal, similar to how mining uses outdoorsmanship, perception, and appraisal.
Scholarship, arcana, and outdoorsmanship?
>Forgive my snark, but welcome to the life of a warrior mage.
>>I'd be a fan of it using scholarship, arcana, and appraisal, similar to how mining uses outdoorsmanship, perception, and appraisal.
After reading his description it seems more outdoorsmanship, perception, scholarship/arcana. I only add arcana in instead of appraisal because on some level I see it not as a mystical thing, but of understanding of how mystical elements influence the room. I could see scholarship in that spot as well for the same reason.
After reading his description it seems more outdoorsmanship, perception, scholarship/arcana. I only add arcana in instead of appraisal because on some level I see it not as a mystical thing, but of understanding of how mystical elements influence the room. I could see scholarship in that spot as well for the same reason.
>>Scholarship, arcana, and outdoorsmanship?
Eh, I'd rather appraisal come along for the ride. outdoorsmanship already does a lot of stuff (and can be trained in a lot of ways). Appraisal is pretty limited. Using it as a tertiary trainer/skill for all materials hunting sounds like a nice place for it.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
Eh, I'd rather appraisal come along for the ride. outdoorsmanship already does a lot of stuff (and can be trained in a lot of ways). Appraisal is pretty limited. Using it as a tertiary trainer/skill for all materials hunting sounds like a nice place for it.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
<<Sigil harvesting will use the foraging skill, though feats will be available under Artificing to improve it>>
As others have mentioned, that seems rather odd to me too. I think it should go back to being Scholarship like the originally-outlined plan was. I was actually pretty excited about that, since Scholarship is in pretty desperate need of something like that, and it's a perfect fit. Studying the world around you to gain the sort of insight being described practically screams "Scholarship!" from the rooftops.
Thanks,
-Life Sustainer Karthor
As others have mentioned, that seems rather odd to me too. I think it should go back to being Scholarship like the originally-outlined plan was. I was actually pretty excited about that, since Scholarship is in pretty desperate need of something like that, and it's a perfect fit. Studying the world around you to gain the sort of insight being described practically screams "Scholarship!" from the rooftops.
Thanks,
-Life Sustainer Karthor
I'd rather it use outdoorsmanship than arcana by far, with scholarship being a close second choice.
Mundane material gathering should not require a magical skill, I'm sure there is incredible bias since Enchanting is most intently anticipated by magic users, but the modifier for mana in imbue and other aspects of the craft already benefit magic users strongly, gathering should be practical and mundane.
Mundane material gathering should not require a magical skill, I'm sure there is incredible bias since Enchanting is most intently anticipated by magic users, but the modifier for mana in imbue and other aspects of the craft already benefit magic users strongly, gathering should be practical and mundane.
>I'd be a fan of it using scholarship, arcana, and appraisal, similar to how mining uses outdoorsmanship, perception, and appraisal.
I was under the impression since the sigil gathering thing was mentioned at Simucon however long ago that it was going to use scholarship. I'm not sure where I got that from but it makes a lot more sense to me than outdoorsmanship. I understand the reasoning behind wanting outdoorsmanship to be the main gathering skill of sorts but throwing the sigil system in there as it's presented seems to make the skill a little too broad in nature IMO. Also, I can't even think of anything off the top of my head that Scholarship has a real role in besides classes. It's definitely a skill that could use some love.
I was under the impression since the sigil gathering thing was mentioned at Simucon however long ago that it was going to use scholarship. I'm not sure where I got that from but it makes a lot more sense to me than outdoorsmanship. I understand the reasoning behind wanting outdoorsmanship to be the main gathering skill of sorts but throwing the sigil system in there as it's presented seems to make the skill a little too broad in nature IMO. Also, I can't even think of anything off the top of my head that Scholarship has a real role in besides classes. It's definitely a skill that could use some love.
Agreed. Awesome, Kodius. Outdoorsmanship is fine. As it stands, the skill is considerably more worthless than arcana so the "arcana doesn't have a lot of uses" argument is pretty thin. There's a logical case to be made for either skill so it comes down to playability and I think outdoorsmanship should win there because it's the only fair way to keep NMUs in the system.
>Mundane material gathering should not require a magical skill,
Sigil 'harvesting' isn't the physical collection of a mundane item, as far as I've read his descriptions. It's the abstract scribing of an even more abstract concept of the 'gestalt' of a room which will vary depending on time/season/etc. I'm not sure how mundane I'd define sigil gathering, especially since enchanting as a whole is definitively not mundane.
>As it stands, the skill is considerably more worthless than arcana so the "arcana doesn't have a lot of uses" argument is pretty thin.
Outdoors: mining, gathering branches (bow creation), herbs, vine/grass braiding, and perception training.
Arcana: Reading/using scrolls, using Runes, CJ charge consumption, using camb.
I'd say they're about even? Personally, I think it makes the absolute most sense to base it on scholarship, as others have said. A close second is arcana, but I don't think it remotely needs to be based on outdoorsmanship. That particular skill is already pegged into multiple crafting professions, and I think the love should be shared around, rather than just say 'survival prime = generator of all'.
I'm a badger, I be badgerin'
Sigil 'harvesting' isn't the physical collection of a mundane item, as far as I've read his descriptions. It's the abstract scribing of an even more abstract concept of the 'gestalt' of a room which will vary depending on time/season/etc. I'm not sure how mundane I'd define sigil gathering, especially since enchanting as a whole is definitively not mundane.
>As it stands, the skill is considerably more worthless than arcana so the "arcana doesn't have a lot of uses" argument is pretty thin.
Outdoors: mining, gathering branches (bow creation), herbs, vine/grass braiding, and perception training.
Arcana: Reading/using scrolls, using Runes, CJ charge consumption, using camb.
I'd say they're about even? Personally, I think it makes the absolute most sense to base it on scholarship, as others have said. A close second is arcana, but I don't think it remotely needs to be based on outdoorsmanship. That particular skill is already pegged into multiple crafting professions, and I think the love should be shared around, rather than just say 'survival prime = generator of all'.
I'm a badger, I be badgerin'
> As it stands, the skill is considerably more worthless than arcana so the "arcana doesn't have a lot of uses" argument is pretty thin.
The argument for me was that arcana doesn't have a lot of high rank support. Another rank of outdoorsmanship will always make you a better miner, but I stopped benefiting from increasing my arcana several hundred ranks ago.
The argument for me was that arcana doesn't have a lot of high rank support. Another rank of outdoorsmanship will always make you a better miner, but I stopped benefiting from increasing my arcana several hundred ranks ago.
>>I'd say they're about even?
With a bit of luck, I can earn multiple plats with just outdoorsmanship via mining.
That puts it leaps and bounds above arcana.
I like the idea of the material gathering systems being split up a bit between skills. Bones, skins, and parts go to skinning. Rocks and metals go to outdoorsmanship, and wood and plants will eventually join those, as well. I like the idea of arcana getting some action for the enchanting craft stuff.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
With a bit of luck, I can earn multiple plats with just outdoorsmanship via mining.
That puts it leaps and bounds above arcana.
I like the idea of the material gathering systems being split up a bit between skills. Bones, skins, and parts go to skinning. Rocks and metals go to outdoorsmanship, and wood and plants will eventually join those, as well. I like the idea of arcana getting some action for the enchanting craft stuff.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
Okay, so as far as the skill(s) used in gathering, I think I'd have to throw in with the others in support of Scholarship over Outdoorsmanship. Or alternative paths to gathering as was also suggested.
Additionally, while I'd like to actually use the mechanics of gathering before I offer any kind of extensive feedback on them, the idea in general seems to make sense. The added function of being able to modify the difficulty yourself really seems interesting and engaging.
Enchanting itself should produce plenty of more uses for arcana (ps: first aid for remedies and weapon/armor skill gates for gettingtge full bonus out of high tier gear), but scholarship has needed this since it was initially proposed! Outdoorsmanship is doing well and will probably get better as it someday gets farming... three gathering skills is a good healthy play variety. Maybe scholarship can have future tie-ins with gathering an "inspiration" resource or something for artistry.
>Forgive my snark, but welcome to the life of a warrior mage.
>Forgive my snark, but welcome to the life of a warrior mage.
I like the idea of scholarship for collecting sigils.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Yeah I agree Scholarship may make more sense to play a larger part. Once I get the mechanics in place we can play with it and see.
Does anyone have thoughts about precision being the "rarity" factor, and the general method of gambling for higher precision?
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
Does anyone have thoughts about precision being the "rarity" factor, and the general method of gambling for higher precision?
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
