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One of the biggest changes I have noticed since waking from my long sleep two months ago is that player-crafted items have vastly outclassed store-bought items in mechanical strength. According to my new friends, the latter are nearly universally unusable. (Perhaps this is hyperbolic as a blanket statement, but the general trend seems difficult to argue.)
Frankly, this is great. To buy my latest set of armor, I had to seek out and track down a player, convince them to do it for me, help them get the materials, and so on. This is a great roleplaying opportunity, and the hallmark of a robust and intricate crafting system.
The drawback, however, is that everybody is starting to look the same. Pretty much every player is wearing "a lumium hauberk" while swinging "a steel scimitar" - sometimes lightened, reinforced, or what have you, but every adornment is 100% functional. If I want to use an even slightly fluffy item from a shop, I have to either take a disproportionally huge hit on my mechanics, or change into my "real gear" before going into battle. This constitutes a significant departure from the DragonRealms I played years ago.
I recently went to Rossman's and ordered "a damascened bronze glaive engraved with swirling ravens." It sucks, but after going through the huge list of options (cf: https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Weaponsmith%27s_Shop), I found exactly the right ones for me. The shop allotted me a week and a half to steep in anticipation, and I absolutely love the way it looks.
Why not put this type of control in the hands of players? This is what I would love to see artistry become. I picture an artistry book containing finishes, designs, etchings, jeweled hilts, and so on. All fluff which can be applied in combination to add individual flavor to generic-looking forged weapons and armor. I see synergy techniques with requirements in both artistry and forging to be able access to certain metal embellishments. I see pattern compendiums that artists could fill at fests, from item drops, and in shops at all corners of the world. There are lots of ways this could go.
Anyway, hope this suggestion is taken in a good light. The current plans for origami and dyes are very neat, too, for sure.
<<Why not put this type of control in the hands of players? This is what I would love to see artistry become. I picture an artistry book containing finishes, designs, etchings, jeweled hilts, and so on. All fluff which can be applied in combination to add individual flavor to generic-looking forged weapons and armor.
I'm pretty sure something like this is already planned... eventually. Dyeing is just in a preview state right now, just to see how it would work both for our benefit as well as the GMs. I'm sure other types of embellishment will come. Crafting systems as a whole are still actively being finished, so I suspect embellishment will likely be one of the last things implemented simply because it relies mechanically on knowing what the end-results of other crafts are going to look like and require. It will likely be divided into different materials or types of embellishment, and will have techniques for each of those.
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators
I'm pretty sure something like this is already planned... eventually. Dyeing is just in a preview state right now, just to see how it would work both for our benefit as well as the GMs. I'm sure other types of embellishment will come. Crafting systems as a whole are still actively being finished, so I suspect embellishment will likely be one of the last things implemented simply because it relies mechanically on knowing what the end-results of other crafts are going to look like and require. It will likely be divided into different materials or types of embellishment, and will have techniques for each of those.
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators
I believe Artistry will look a lot like you have suggested.
>>According to my new friends, the latter are nearly universally unusable. (Perhaps this is hyperbolic as a blanket statement, but the general trend seems difficult to argue.)
Just wanted to touch on this. This is completely not true. You can go from 1st to 200th circle or 1-1750 ranks in combat using only store bought weapons and armor. It's not the best or most effective equipment in the game, but it won't make your character useless if use store bought stuff.
>>According to my new friends, the latter are nearly universally unusable. (Perhaps this is hyperbolic as a blanket statement, but the general trend seems difficult to argue.)
Just wanted to touch on this. This is completely not true. You can go from 1st to 200th circle or 1-1750 ranks in combat using only store bought weapons and armor. It's not the best or most effective equipment in the game, but it won't make your character useless if use store bought stuff.
<<It's not the best or most effective equipment in the game, but it won't make your character useless if use store bought stuff.
This said, there is a noticeable difference in effectiveness of both armour and weapons between storebought and crafted. Experience gained for crafted weapons is also somewhat higher than that of storebought because of their increased accuracy and damage. But, yes it is entirely doable with storebought, so getting tricked out in the best gear isn't 'necessary.' It's certainly a goal to work towards once you have the resources, but you're not rendered useless if you don't do it and you don't have to rush to do it.
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators
This said, there is a noticeable difference in effectiveness of both armour and weapons between storebought and crafted. Experience gained for crafted weapons is also somewhat higher than that of storebought because of their increased accuracy and damage. But, yes it is entirely doable with storebought, so getting tricked out in the best gear isn't 'necessary.' It's certainly a goal to work towards once you have the resources, but you're not rendered useless if you don't do it and you don't have to rush to do it.
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators
>>According to my new friends, the latter are nearly universally unusable
Like most things this is a complicated situation. When 3.0 came out we went to an internal Tiering system for all weapons and armor. These generally aren't visible to players, but the Tier system has allowed us to tightly regulate how good player-crafted AND storebought AND loot-dropped equipment is.
T1 - very poor
T2 - poor
T3 - storebought
T4 - master steel
T5 - rare metal
T6 - very rare metal
T7 - epic quality (Auction/Quest only)
T8 - legendary? (Perhaps one katana has fit into this?)
In 2.0 it was possible for a forged weapon to be 2-3x better than storebought. That was just too wide a spread and led to many weapon and armor categories being unusable due to the non-existence of crafting templates for them. Also, many GMs lacked the intimate knowledge of combat to properly design weapons for merchants and as prizes. This too led to unbalances. But we now have tools to standardize it all and I think it has helped bring things at least somewhat back in line. The modifiers to forged equipment are reasonable and it is very desirable that storebought goods to be a playable option.
Now the complicated part is we still have systems that do not follow the Tiering structure. Old shops, some critter loot.. throwback prizes. In many cases those are T1 or T2, which is why popular opinion can be what it is. We are always working on this and trying to make it better.
I hope this helps clear some things up about that!
As for artistry, yes I do intend for it to add additional customized looks to items. Artistry will hopefully someday feature dyeing, engraving, embossing, enameling, painting, and so on....
And well, I did release what? 200 custom weapon types? Not entirely sure why folks continue to use plain scimitars and broadswords when other fancy-sounding alternatives exist :chuckle:
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
Like most things this is a complicated situation. When 3.0 came out we went to an internal Tiering system for all weapons and armor. These generally aren't visible to players, but the Tier system has allowed us to tightly regulate how good player-crafted AND storebought AND loot-dropped equipment is.
T1 - very poor
T2 - poor
T3 - storebought
T4 - master steel
T5 - rare metal
T6 - very rare metal
T7 - epic quality (Auction/Quest only)
T8 - legendary? (Perhaps one katana has fit into this?)
In 2.0 it was possible for a forged weapon to be 2-3x better than storebought. That was just too wide a spread and led to many weapon and armor categories being unusable due to the non-existence of crafting templates for them. Also, many GMs lacked the intimate knowledge of combat to properly design weapons for merchants and as prizes. This too led to unbalances. But we now have tools to standardize it all and I think it has helped bring things at least somewhat back in line. The modifiers to forged equipment are reasonable and it is very desirable that storebought goods to be a playable option.
Now the complicated part is we still have systems that do not follow the Tiering structure. Old shops, some critter loot.. throwback prizes. In many cases those are T1 or T2, which is why popular opinion can be what it is. We are always working on this and trying to make it better.
I hope this helps clear some things up about that!
As for artistry, yes I do intend for it to add additional customized looks to items. Artistry will hopefully someday feature dyeing, engraving, embossing, enameling, painting, and so on....
And well, I did release what? 200 custom weapon types? Not entirely sure why folks continue to use plain scimitars and broadswords when other fancy-sounding alternatives exist :chuckle:
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
> it won't make your character useless if use store bought stuff.
Certainly not useless, but I would be taking a pretty huge hit. There is a reason that crafted items are so ubiquitous. While some "style cost" can be justified, it's harder to make that deal when you could be getting a weapon that's twice as good (and when nearly everyone has weapons in that ballpark). I guess that's why I say the decision is -disproportionately- in favor of the crafted items.
Certainly not useless, but I would be taking a pretty huge hit. There is a reason that crafted items are so ubiquitous. While some "style cost" can be justified, it's harder to make that deal when you could be getting a weapon that's twice as good (and when nearly everyone has weapons in that ballpark). I guess that's why I say the decision is -disproportionately- in favor of the crafted items.
IMO if/when forgebinding becomes a more commonplace thing, I can see festival merchant items becoming a lot more popular.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
>>it's harder to make that deal when you could be getting a weapon that's twice as good
A Tier 6 item does not even have 50% better stats than storebought... so no, not twice as good :P
I think what modifies players' views is how you can forge heavier/lighter weapons and armor. You don't realize the stats also go down by a similar %. But having a sword you can swing 50% faster FEELS twice as good even if it is doing less damage?
Similarly, if you cannot survive in storebought plate but CAN in less hindering lumium plate, you don't really care that it is protecting less effectively.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
A Tier 6 item does not even have 50% better stats than storebought... so no, not twice as good :P
I think what modifies players' views is how you can forge heavier/lighter weapons and armor. You don't realize the stats also go down by a similar %. But having a sword you can swing 50% faster FEELS twice as good even if it is doing less damage?
Similarly, if you cannot survive in storebought plate but CAN in less hindering lumium plate, you don't really care that it is protecting less effectively.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
>Similarly, if you cannot survive in storebought plate but CAN in less hindering lumium plate, you don't really care that it is protecting less effectively.
In PVP games I've played, even the tiniest scrap of extra stats is ground out in the grinding treadmill, even at literally 5 times or more cost. Because when that little extra bit of stats (less than 2% difference overall) mean the difference between life and death, especially when being alive means operating at ~80% effectiveness, and being dead means being 0% effective...
Translation: Don't care that it's 5% better. It's BETTER, and if 100% = dead and 103% = dead, but 105% = alive. Then that makes it WORTH it to NOT DIE.
Kaeta Airtag
"I have faith in the current crop of GMs to not screw people over"
>>Actually an opinion cannot be changed or corrected. Nice try back of line.-VERATHOR
>>But it can be wrong.-Starlear
In PVP games I've played, even the tiniest scrap of extra stats is ground out in the grinding treadmill, even at literally 5 times or more cost. Because when that little extra bit of stats (less than 2% difference overall) mean the difference between life and death, especially when being alive means operating at ~80% effectiveness, and being dead means being 0% effective...
Translation: Don't care that it's 5% better. It's BETTER, and if 100% = dead and 103% = dead, but 105% = alive. Then that makes it WORTH it to NOT DIE.
Kaeta Airtag
"I have faith in the current crop of GMs to not screw people over"
>>Actually an opinion cannot be changed or corrected. Nice try back of line.-VERATHOR
>>But it can be wrong.-Starlear
>>Translation: Don't care that it's 5% better. It's BETTER, and if 100% = dead and 103% = dead, but 105% = alive. Then that makes it WORTH it to NOT DIE.
I think this comes back to the discussion of what counts as "at level". If you need that teeny tiny boost to survive, you're not hunting at your difficulty level. The issue then becomes if you're comfortable with X being what you should be hunting as opposed to Y.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
I think this comes back to the discussion of what counts as "at level". If you need that teeny tiny boost to survive, you're not hunting at your difficulty level. The issue then becomes if you're comfortable with X being what you should be hunting as opposed to Y.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
>>Because when that little extra bit of stats (less than 2% difference overall) mean the difference between life and death
DR PvP combat just doesn't work that way for to-hit and damage rolls. For SvS you'd be right. Slightly winning = success and slight failure = complete failure.
However, to-hit rolls and damage are all % based and feature a healthy random modifier. 2% more OF or 2% more damage isn't going to be statistically significant in PvP given how the Random variation is many times that AND how many hits it takes to kill a person.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
DR PvP combat just doesn't work that way for to-hit and damage rolls. For SvS you'd be right. Slightly winning = success and slight failure = complete failure.
However, to-hit rolls and damage are all % based and feature a healthy random modifier. 2% more OF or 2% more damage isn't going to be statistically significant in PvP given how the Random variation is many times that AND how many hits it takes to kill a person.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
