> Thievery sucks. It's not fun to train, requires a ton of physical movement, is tedious and requires a lot of micro-data tracking, results in constant arrests, and so on. I don't care if using the 'stealing research' system permanently locks me out of stealing from players and makes me unable to ever bin/pawn items, or some other tangent. I'd just like to circle without getting caught 50 times a day and arrested so often I've got a cell on retainer.


Considering that thievery has almost no impact on the game world or player base, I'd suggest giving it the forage rock treatment. That or put training dummies in each of the guild halls.

> l
You see a clockwork dummy covered in bells, and some other stuff that's far less important.

> Steal Dummy
You attempt to steal a bell from the training dummy.
[Random roll 1 messaging]
[Random roll 2 messaging]
Roundtime: 5-25 seconds

Requires one hand free.

[Random number between [150 and 1750] - [agility x 3] ] (call it R)
Roll 1 [do you succeed]?
- [BT > 2R] Moving as silently as a shadow, you deftly reach into the dummy's pocket and pull out a junk box. (5 second RT, +3 mindstates)
- [BT >= R] With deft movements, you find your way into the dummy's pockets. After a moment, the dummy moves and you find yourself empty-handed. [10 second RT, +2 mindstates)
- [BT < R] You make an attempt for the dummy, but you're deflected from its pockets as it makes a sharp left turn [7 second RT, +2 mindstates].
- [BT < 2R] Moving like an amateur, you reach for the dummy at the wrong time. [10 second RT, +2 mindstates].
- [BT < 10R] Moving like a drunken cleric, you miss the dummy's pockets. You couldn't even steal candy from a baby with this technique. [25 second RT, +1 mindstate]

[Another Random number between [150 and 1750] - [reflex x 3] ] (call it A)
Roll 2 [do you set off the bells?]
- [(BA + BP) > 4A] As if moving with a 6th sense, you avoid even brushing the bells on the clockwork dummy. (+3 mindstates in Athletics - teaches escaping, minor confidence boost)
- [(BA + BP) >= A] With a practiced hand, you manage to avoid most of the bells on the dummy. (+2 mindstates)
- [(BA + BP) < A] With clumsy movements, you brush one of the bells. (+2 RT)
- [(BA + BP) < 8A] You're distracted at a crucial moment and you shake the entire dummy. A few shadowy figures nearby can barely contain their laughter as they look on. (confidence hit).

BT = Buffed Thievery.
R, A = Random Roll.
Junk Box = Locked Box with no traps and no items inside. Rank difficulty is set equal to R when it's created.


You could even add these as prizes at events. A clockwork kit that will create a dummy with a few hours lifespan. It can have a number of charges (for it, not the dummy), or it could be a daily or even hourly cool-down to act as tiers. Anyone can use them. Auction grade would have unlimited charges, like the forging anvils. Dropping them in a justice zone will result in their destruction and your arrest (same as if you were to teach stealing or sorcery).

>While I know this is an exaggeration, it would solve basically all my complaints about stealing if you just didn't lose gweth charges when you're arrested, or had a way to turn off gweths to remove them without burning a charge.

Sure, it was. But I'm to the point where I'm tired of 100% chance of getting arrested to train a guild-mandated skill. I've been listening to 'Forging Hephaestus', which talks about a Villains guild extensively.

And it made me realize: with the way DR's system works our guild is forcing us out there to get caught, which is unbelievably stupid.

If I compare it to any other mandatory skill, it's a bigger hassle with a larger penalty and lower reward.

Stealing comes with the risk of total item loss, which is only otherwise possible through normal systems by death. Except death has rezz and other work arounds, while stealing does not. Stealing also has the risk of bodily harm or death, depending on where you get caught, will cost gweth charges (which only happen via death or gweth-smash otherwise), and costs you money.

It has all the penalties of combat (death), all the drawbacks of athletics (roaming the countryside), and generates warrants. But it never really pays off; pawn shops are broken and often pay little to nothing for items. The 'eventual' systems that Throne City was supposed to precursor never happened.

Plus for a thief (the stealing specialist?) if you get caught, you must surrender yourself because reputation will tank and you'll be locked out of guild locations/abilities.

>With the latest changes, I've been having more luck though there is sort of a garaunteed arrest at some point.

That's my point; there's no way to train the skill without frequent (user defined) arrests. I'll also point out that you're one of the people in-game who has put the most time and effort into the system. The Average User isn't going to be as good or able to accurately pick targets as you.

I'll agree, it's better but it's still not a system I have any interest in engaging with. And no, 'lolz thief haha' isn't a compelling counter argument. The system isn't fun. When a lot of users honestly consider the 'best' option to train the skill classes, it's probably poorly designed and implemented.

>It takes a while, but at higher end I've found it does pay off, even just in shop runs

Compared to similar time spent in combat, skinning/looting/etc.? If I pawn the things I steal in the sub-200 ranks range I usually barely cover my warrants and fines, over time.

>not counting what you can pickpocket

Eh, I think we've had this argument, but I don't like pickpocketing. I consider it stealing time from other players, which I personally find in poor taste. Designated PvP where both parties are having fun (or at least know there's a game going on) is fine, both are getting something out of it. But pickpocketing as a whole is 'be on guard 24x7 for PvP at the thief's discretion' (and yes, that's an over-statement, we all know the realities are limited but you know what I mean so please don't pedantic-sniper this thanks).

>Agree that this must suck. I'm glad I don't deal with rep, though having my effective survival skills drop because I'm staying in town isn't great either.

Thief vs. ranger is kind of an even swap. Thieves actually suffer because a half-decent number of shops were set either neutral or not-urban so that rangers don't get unduly penalized. But Rangers have passive benefit loss. Thief rep drops when they let warrants stack up, but it takes a bit more time (and value of warrants) for it to stack like a ranger bonus. Flip side is if you tank it, it takes a lot more to get it back to reasonable. And the loss can be pretty gnarly on the really low end.

> making it similar to kicking rocks - would make the skill a bit trivial.

It doesn't have to be one or the other. Just because a skill is easy to train doesn't mean it can't have a productive use too.

All that aisde, it's already trivial. What are your options?
- Stealing from players. Who does that any more? Why would they, even if players didn't have a million ways to defend against it?
- Stealing from the museum. Niche use, redundant but niche. Caps out fairly early in the grand scheme of things.
- Stealing from shops. Decently lucrative on time vs action, but too high on the risk/reward curve.

Compare this to outdoorsmanship, which isn't trivial.
- Anyone can train it, easily, and anywhere.
- Productive use in the gathering/crafting systems.
- Decent on the risk / reward ratio and the time/reward scale, if you count workorders.
- Provides access to the best materials outside of the pay to win system.

I like the concept of thievery, but it needs to evolve like everything else in this game. Simpler systems are a way to do this. Fewer bugs to waste future GM time on. Better scalability to keep it from needing to be rewritten every few months (and getting it every few years). Setup that rewards usage in busy rooms, and hooks into other systems (confidence) that make it inciting even if you aren't the primary audience.

>Encouraging players to interact with each other is a good thing, no?

Player stealing used to be the best way to learn stealing and perception.

It led to people simply sitting in rooms chain stealing from each other.

It's difficult to balance, though I think, honestly, it wouldn't be a terrible thing to gather a bunch of people into a room for that. At least people would be gathering, instead of logging in their alt and teaching stealing AFK in a room somewhere.