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I'd like to get this back to discussion about how the interacation between the guild abilities would be in your "ideal" DR world. How to make something work within current frameworks isn't the issue.
For instance, there was talk in the past about barbarians and bards in fact working together very closely.
Enchantes have foundations in both music and magic, and certain enchantes would appear to have barbarians in mind. Perhaps barbarians can take more inspiration from the music and less from the magic than other guilds, so that resisting the magic is not the only consideration.
Barbarians can inspire and be inspired through battle cries, how much different is inspiration through music designed to inspire those in battle?
Barbarians have long asked for warhorns, doesn't that indicate a connection between certain sorts of music and barbarians?
Perhaps barbarians can choose/learn to be inspired by bardic enchantes (the music portion rather than the magic).
Perhaps the music can serve as a focus and allow a barbarian to use their inner fire in certain ways.
Perhaps it would even have to be approached on an enchante by enchante basis?
Don't take any of the above as indications of what we intend to do, they are simply my thoughts as I have read through the posts in this thread. The current state of affairs seems quite unworkable and not terribly sensible to me, however.
Gamemaster Iayn
Barbarian Liaison
<<(no problem lowering your IF hits from successfully landed enchantes and want to give you full access to the music component of the beneficial enchantes) but the majority of the Barbs here, who are mostly all high enough to resist all enchantes outright anyway>>
I don't know about the majority of Barbarian players. I personally would not want beneficial things from a Bardic enchante or negative things from a Bardic enchante because it doesn't sound right to have affects put on a Barbarian from outsides sources.
- Simon
http://www.phiiskeep.homestead.com/Frontpage.html
"The problem with common sense, is that it is not so common."
I don't know about the majority of Barbarian players. I personally would not want beneficial things from a Bardic enchante or negative things from a Bardic enchante because it doesn't sound right to have affects put on a Barbarian from outsides sources.
- Simon
http://www.phiiskeep.homestead.com/Frontpage.html
"The problem with common sense, is that it is not so common."
I think if such were at all possible, the ability for each barbarian to sort of "toggle" his or hers BMR would be best, especially as concerns enchantes. I understand that the majority prefer the Conanesque, "MUGICK STOOPID!" approach, and if that's the avenue that things have to go down I'll deal with it, but I do so hope a compromise can be reached, and a toggle function of some sort seems to be the best way there. Sounds like a perfect thing for a meditation. Or perhaps something used in conjunction with the LISTEN verb, where anyone who wants to listen into the music and gain the benefits, not just barbarians, can, and then the MR can be handled after that?
Also, I find the idea of working more closely with the bard guild rather intriguing and would love to see how that would be implemented. I'm unsure as to the extent, but I often feel that the barbarian guild is sort of put out there on an island when it comes into interguild interaction because of the anti-magic stance. So enchantes that would enhance the effect of dances, or perhaps induce a barbarian to go into a berserk would be awesome. Perhaps an enchante or song where all barbarians grouped with the bard would roar in unison in rhythm with the beat, to enhance its effects too, or all of the roars combined having an amazing efficacy when used in conjunction with the music?
Also, I find the idea of working more closely with the bard guild rather intriguing and would love to see how that would be implemented. I'm unsure as to the extent, but I often feel that the barbarian guild is sort of put out there on an island when it comes into interguild interaction because of the anti-magic stance. So enchantes that would enhance the effect of dances, or perhaps induce a barbarian to go into a berserk would be awesome. Perhaps an enchante or song where all barbarians grouped with the bard would roar in unison in rhythm with the beat, to enhance its effects too, or all of the roars combined having an amazing efficacy when used in conjunction with the music?
>Since the pattern itself is not created by or sustained by magic, it's hard to argue that the pattern would collapse as soon as it hits MAGIC resistance.
After reading that I decided to do a bit of testing. If it is a fact that magic isn't used in the creation of the pattern I figured a higher level bard should be able to began a minimum prep enchante without any problem with myself being in the room and dancing a lower level dance. If magic isn't being used to create or sustain the enchante itself then BMR should have had no influence on the thing.
I found that is not the case, and I find it hard to understand how anyone would buy into the it doesn't use mana in its creation argument.
I got together with a 91st level bardess. I'm 75th level and dancing cobra.
Using the Phoenix Pyre and Abandoned Heart and with me standing in the room and dancing cobra she was unable to 'create' either of these two patterns while using the MAN**A Song (min prep).
>(Bardess) begins a song but quickly becomes flustered and confused as the music collapses in a crash of dissonance and awkward notes.
When I left the room however, she was able to start the song up without any problem whatsoever. If there is no magic being used in the creation of the pattern what is it then that I and my BMR are interfering with?
I also don't understand if magic isn't involved in the creation aspect how this is seen by the bardess at the begining of the song if the MAN**A Song isn't set right.
>chant pyre
(You're automatically moving up to the "minimum prep" for Phoenix's Pyre.)
You have difficulty manipulating the mana streams, and the song collapses in a crashing of dissonance and awkward notes.
BMR interfers with magic. Enchantes are Magic. Thats the way it works. Thats the way it should continue to work. Does it bother me a bit that I can't work that close with bards? No more than it doesn't bother me that after I depart a lower level cleric can't cast vigil on me. Or that I screw up courages. Its part of being a member of the guild. If I would have wanted to work with other peoples magic, I'd have been a war mage.
Ternith Sjomah
Keep your mana off me!
PS. Yes this is probally rambling. But it is 2:30 in the morning.
___
I know that I will die in battle, this I have accepted. I hope that it will be one of my own choosing, but if not do not bury me in a small, sad little cemetary. Burn me and spread my ashes to a strong western wind that I might make my way home.
After reading that I decided to do a bit of testing. If it is a fact that magic isn't used in the creation of the pattern I figured a higher level bard should be able to began a minimum prep enchante without any problem with myself being in the room and dancing a lower level dance. If magic isn't being used to create or sustain the enchante itself then BMR should have had no influence on the thing.
I found that is not the case, and I find it hard to understand how anyone would buy into the it doesn't use mana in its creation argument.
I got together with a 91st level bardess. I'm 75th level and dancing cobra.
Using the Phoenix Pyre and Abandoned Heart and with me standing in the room and dancing cobra she was unable to 'create' either of these two patterns while using the MAN**A Song (min prep).
>(Bardess) begins a song but quickly becomes flustered and confused as the music collapses in a crash of dissonance and awkward notes.
When I left the room however, she was able to start the song up without any problem whatsoever. If there is no magic being used in the creation of the pattern what is it then that I and my BMR are interfering with?
I also don't understand if magic isn't involved in the creation aspect how this is seen by the bardess at the begining of the song if the MAN**A Song isn't set right.
>chant pyre
(You're automatically moving up to the "minimum prep" for Phoenix's Pyre.)
You have difficulty manipulating the mana streams, and the song collapses in a crashing of dissonance and awkward notes.
BMR interfers with magic. Enchantes are Magic. Thats the way it works. Thats the way it should continue to work. Does it bother me a bit that I can't work that close with bards? No more than it doesn't bother me that after I depart a lower level cleric can't cast vigil on me. Or that I screw up courages. Its part of being a member of the guild. If I would have wanted to work with other peoples magic, I'd have been a war mage.
Ternith Sjomah
Keep your mana off me!
PS. Yes this is probally rambling. But it is 2:30 in the morning.
___
I know that I will die in battle, this I have accepted. I hope that it will be one of my own choosing, but if not do not bury me in a small, sad little cemetary. Burn me and spread my ashes to a strong western wind that I might make my way home.
I have to hop in bed in a few and then head to work right after I get up.. so unfortunately I can't get into this as much as I'd like, but I'm up for discussing it if you don't mind waiting until I get home from work in about oh 19 hours from now... But until then, I felt this needed to be said.
>according to magic theory, magic resistance prevents the formation of spell patterns or matrices, and the same documents also say that music forms the spell pattern for enchantes. If this is taken in the strictest literal sense, it would mean that magic resistance wouldn't have any effect at all on enchantes, since music is forming the patterns rather than magic (you'd need Music Resistance!).
>Magic resistance prevents the formation of spell patterns through the manipulation of mana. Enchantes do not use mana to create spell patterns, so having magic resistance collapse those patterns makes very little sense -if we go strictly by the documented magic theory-.
Music is not a spell pattern, sorry, them's the breaks.
Mana lines themselves are manipulated to form the spell patterns. Magical resistance is the resistance of the manipulation of mana lines, in other words if you can't bend them into your pattern, the spell fails.
Mana lines are the spell patterns.
Music will create spell patterns by (Somehow. But considering Bards have to use mana (or spell energy, as Valdrik explained) to do it, I'd say it's by magical means) manipulating mana lines into spell patterns, but the music itself is not the spell pattern (and thus does not create its own energy). We can not of course resist the music, but magic resistance still keeps the mana lines in and around one's self from moving from their natural state, and thus, the music fails to create any spell pattern (around the source of the MR, anyway).
I think what the problem is, is that people are trying to play semantics games. MR and BMR resist mana lines being manipulated period, magic theory states this very clearly, it doesn't matter whether it's a mage's will or a Bard's music trying to manipulate mana lines into a pattern, mana lines being moved is resisted, and unless the mage or Bard can overcome that resistance, no spell 4 u.
Now, that being said, I think the current incarnation of BMR set up is lame, and there was no way in hell it was designed with fun in mind, with the way it disrupts area spells and with Inner Fire reductions and all. I'm all for scraping and charging and lot of things, but if you want a quick and dirty fix I say get rid of Inner Fire hits from spells overwhelming it (absolutely no downside would come from this change), and make Enchantes work on a person by person basis so that they do not just fail outright.
Dragoonseal
(And below, I cite my sources, Magic Theory and a post by Valdrik explaining how spell patterns make energy.)
Category Abilities, Skills and Magic (24)
Topic Magic - Suggestions, Discussions and Thoughts (21)
By DR-VALDRIK from PLAY.NET (Chicken Mage)
On Dec 5, 2001 at 14:15
Subject Re: A Challenge for Valdrik (13883)
Alright, I'll go into an explanation -- again,
When you cast a spell, the process goes like this:
1.) You manipulate the mana in the area into a spell pattern. Mana does not like to be in any state other than its natural state -- therefore as you manipulate mana, it resists causing a buildup of energy. (This is much like if you bend a metal hanger a bunch of times, the joint at which it is bent gets hot).
2.) Once you're prepared, you cast the spell. This action releases the energy stored in the pattern -- this is the spell juice. It's your Fire Shard, your Ethereal Shield, etc.
This spell energy is the very same stuff that is fed into your cambrinth items and stored there. Its the very same premise behind Osrel Meraud, the spell. The spell leeches the energy from your spell pattern and keeps it held in the orb.
When you <harness 5>, you're holding spell energy internalized within you. (Causing nerve damage if held too long without skill to back it up). There is a bit more to held mana, but for purposes of this post this is enough info :).
There ya have it <G>. I could swear I've posted all of this before. I KNOW that the message is misleading right now. But trust me, it wont be that way for too long.
Regards,
Valdrik
Category Abilities, Skills and Magic (4)
Topic Magic - Suggestions, Discussions and Thoughts (14)
By DR-DAMISSAK from PLAY.NET
On Apr 27, 2002 at 15:47
Subject Magic Resistance Theory (793)
We present to you the theory for Magic Resistance (and its extension - Barbarian Magic Resistance).
The lines of mana flow through everything in / on Elanthia (they even flow through Elanthia herself).
Spells manipulate these lines of mana away from their natural state to form spell patterns.
The body of every animate being naturally resists the manipulation of the mana lines passing through it.
Spells cast at a target or in the immediate vicinity of a target must necessarily manipulate the lines of mana that pass through said target, as well as those around it. The target's natural resistance to the manipulation of those lines of mana as they pass through it is the substance of magic resistance.
There are various different types of spell patterns. I'll discuss the theory of MR with regard to each one.
1) The first type of spell is the general cast spell. This spell type is typically cast with 'cast <xxxx>'. There are three variations of the general cast spell; beneficial, neutral, and detrimental. The pattern of a general cast spell forms in and around the immediate area that is the target. The mana lines which form the majority of the spell pattern are the very lines passing through said target. Therefore, the target's natural resistance to the manipulation of those mana lines increases the difficulty of that manipulation. The increased difficulty manifests itself in a possible decrease in the effectiveness of the spell.
2) The next type of spell is the targeted spell. This spell type is also cast with 'cast <xxxx>'. There is a large fundamental difference in functionality when comparing this spell type to general cast spells. A target (TM) spell is composed of two patterns (the spell pattern and the target pattern). The actual spell pattern for a targeted spell is formed at some location away from the target (and is therefore not resistable in any way). The matrix (release of energy) of the spell (whatever is formed) is then propelled towards the target pattern. The target pattern is formed in and around the immediate area that is the target. The mana lines which form the majority of the target pattern are the very lines passing through said target. Therefore, the target's natural resistance to the manipulation of those mana lines increases the difficulty of that manipulation. That increased difficultly manifests itself in a possible decrease in accuracy of the spell.
3) The last type of spell is the area effect spell. This spell type is typically cast with just 'cast'. Area effect spells can impact entire rooms, everything at melee, everything at pole or closer, everything at missle or closer, or everything in a given group. Area effect spells can also be classified as beneficial or detrimental. The pattern of an area effect spell forms in the entirety of the area that the spell affects (room, melee, pole, missle, group). The formation of the spell pattern must overcome the sum of the natural resistance of every animate being within said area.
.
. i) Different spell purposes have varying levels of resistance. Nothing in the spell pattern of beneficial spells is designed to overcome Magic Resistance since it is expected that the target would not be one that would resist the spell. Detrimental spells expect an unwilling target, and thus their spell patterns are designed to better overcome innate Magic Resistance. In practice, this means that beneficial or neutrally-oriented spells can be more easily resisted than detrimental spells.
ii) The caster of a spell will never be the cause of resistance against their own spell.
iii) Those able to manipulate mana (able to cast spells) become more receptive to the manipulation of the lines of mana passing through them thus nullifying their natural resistance in the case of beneficial spells. They are not able to increase their natural resistance in the case of detrimental spells, as to do so would run counter to their own ability to manipulate mana in and around themselves.
iv) Barbarian Magic Resistance works on exactly the same principles found in the base MR. The only difference is that Barbarians (because of presence of inner-fire) posess a higher degree resistance to the manipulation of the mana lines passing through them. The MR of the Barbarian (BMR) can fluctuate depending on the state of said barbarian and the state of their inner-fire. MR is basically fixed in non-Barbarians. The exact definition of inner-fire is out of the scope of this discussion, but is not truly necessary to understand the interaction of Magic Resistance and spell patterns.
.
. The results of such Magic Resistance can be the utter nullification of a spell, an increase in difficulty or reduction of spell effectiveness, or complete success by the spell caster at overcoming the Magic Resistance of the target.
Since Magic Resistance resists manipulation of mana through an individual, any such manipulation can potentially be resisted. In the case of a Passive Magical Device where there is no such manipulation of mana through an individual, Magic Resistance is undefined (ie. does not 'trigger').
Regards,
GM Damissak
>according to magic theory, magic resistance prevents the formation of spell patterns or matrices, and the same documents also say that music forms the spell pattern for enchantes. If this is taken in the strictest literal sense, it would mean that magic resistance wouldn't have any effect at all on enchantes, since music is forming the patterns rather than magic (you'd need Music Resistance!).
>Magic resistance prevents the formation of spell patterns through the manipulation of mana. Enchantes do not use mana to create spell patterns, so having magic resistance collapse those patterns makes very little sense -if we go strictly by the documented magic theory-.
Music is not a spell pattern, sorry, them's the breaks.
Mana lines themselves are manipulated to form the spell patterns. Magical resistance is the resistance of the manipulation of mana lines, in other words if you can't bend them into your pattern, the spell fails.
Mana lines are the spell patterns.
Music will create spell patterns by (Somehow. But considering Bards have to use mana (or spell energy, as Valdrik explained) to do it, I'd say it's by magical means) manipulating mana lines into spell patterns, but the music itself is not the spell pattern (and thus does not create its own energy). We can not of course resist the music, but magic resistance still keeps the mana lines in and around one's self from moving from their natural state, and thus, the music fails to create any spell pattern (around the source of the MR, anyway).
I think what the problem is, is that people are trying to play semantics games. MR and BMR resist mana lines being manipulated period, magic theory states this very clearly, it doesn't matter whether it's a mage's will or a Bard's music trying to manipulate mana lines into a pattern, mana lines being moved is resisted, and unless the mage or Bard can overcome that resistance, no spell 4 u.
Now, that being said, I think the current incarnation of BMR set up is lame, and there was no way in hell it was designed with fun in mind, with the way it disrupts area spells and with Inner Fire reductions and all. I'm all for scraping and charging and lot of things, but if you want a quick and dirty fix I say get rid of Inner Fire hits from spells overwhelming it (absolutely no downside would come from this change), and make Enchantes work on a person by person basis so that they do not just fail outright.
Dragoonseal
(And below, I cite my sources, Magic Theory and a post by Valdrik explaining how spell patterns make energy.)
Category Abilities, Skills and Magic (24)
Topic Magic - Suggestions, Discussions and Thoughts (21)
By DR-VALDRIK from PLAY.NET (Chicken Mage)
On Dec 5, 2001 at 14:15
Subject Re: A Challenge for Valdrik (13883)
Alright, I'll go into an explanation -- again,
When you cast a spell, the process goes like this:
1.) You manipulate the mana in the area into a spell pattern. Mana does not like to be in any state other than its natural state -- therefore as you manipulate mana, it resists causing a buildup of energy. (This is much like if you bend a metal hanger a bunch of times, the joint at which it is bent gets hot).
2.) Once you're prepared, you cast the spell. This action releases the energy stored in the pattern -- this is the spell juice. It's your Fire Shard, your Ethereal Shield, etc.
This spell energy is the very same stuff that is fed into your cambrinth items and stored there. Its the very same premise behind Osrel Meraud, the spell. The spell leeches the energy from your spell pattern and keeps it held in the orb.
When you <harness 5>, you're holding spell energy internalized within you. (Causing nerve damage if held too long without skill to back it up). There is a bit more to held mana, but for purposes of this post this is enough info :).
There ya have it <G>. I could swear I've posted all of this before. I KNOW that the message is misleading right now. But trust me, it wont be that way for too long.
Regards,
Valdrik
Category Abilities, Skills and Magic (4)
Topic Magic - Suggestions, Discussions and Thoughts (14)
By DR-DAMISSAK from PLAY.NET
On Apr 27, 2002 at 15:47
Subject Magic Resistance Theory (793)
We present to you the theory for Magic Resistance (and its extension - Barbarian Magic Resistance).
The lines of mana flow through everything in / on Elanthia (they even flow through Elanthia herself).
Spells manipulate these lines of mana away from their natural state to form spell patterns.
The body of every animate being naturally resists the manipulation of the mana lines passing through it.
Spells cast at a target or in the immediate vicinity of a target must necessarily manipulate the lines of mana that pass through said target, as well as those around it. The target's natural resistance to the manipulation of those lines of mana as they pass through it is the substance of magic resistance.
There are various different types of spell patterns. I'll discuss the theory of MR with regard to each one.
1) The first type of spell is the general cast spell. This spell type is typically cast with 'cast <xxxx>'. There are three variations of the general cast spell; beneficial, neutral, and detrimental. The pattern of a general cast spell forms in and around the immediate area that is the target. The mana lines which form the majority of the spell pattern are the very lines passing through said target. Therefore, the target's natural resistance to the manipulation of those mana lines increases the difficulty of that manipulation. The increased difficulty manifests itself in a possible decrease in the effectiveness of the spell.
2) The next type of spell is the targeted spell. This spell type is also cast with 'cast <xxxx>'. There is a large fundamental difference in functionality when comparing this spell type to general cast spells. A target (TM) spell is composed of two patterns (the spell pattern and the target pattern). The actual spell pattern for a targeted spell is formed at some location away from the target (and is therefore not resistable in any way). The matrix (release of energy) of the spell (whatever is formed) is then propelled towards the target pattern. The target pattern is formed in and around the immediate area that is the target. The mana lines which form the majority of the target pattern are the very lines passing through said target. Therefore, the target's natural resistance to the manipulation of those mana lines increases the difficulty of that manipulation. That increased difficultly manifests itself in a possible decrease in accuracy of the spell.
3) The last type of spell is the area effect spell. This spell type is typically cast with just 'cast'. Area effect spells can impact entire rooms, everything at melee, everything at pole or closer, everything at missle or closer, or everything in a given group. Area effect spells can also be classified as beneficial or detrimental. The pattern of an area effect spell forms in the entirety of the area that the spell affects (room, melee, pole, missle, group). The formation of the spell pattern must overcome the sum of the natural resistance of every animate being within said area.
.
. i) Different spell purposes have varying levels of resistance. Nothing in the spell pattern of beneficial spells is designed to overcome Magic Resistance since it is expected that the target would not be one that would resist the spell. Detrimental spells expect an unwilling target, and thus their spell patterns are designed to better overcome innate Magic Resistance. In practice, this means that beneficial or neutrally-oriented spells can be more easily resisted than detrimental spells.
ii) The caster of a spell will never be the cause of resistance against their own spell.
iii) Those able to manipulate mana (able to cast spells) become more receptive to the manipulation of the lines of mana passing through them thus nullifying their natural resistance in the case of beneficial spells. They are not able to increase their natural resistance in the case of detrimental spells, as to do so would run counter to their own ability to manipulate mana in and around themselves.
iv) Barbarian Magic Resistance works on exactly the same principles found in the base MR. The only difference is that Barbarians (because of presence of inner-fire) posess a higher degree resistance to the manipulation of the mana lines passing through them. The MR of the Barbarian (BMR) can fluctuate depending on the state of said barbarian and the state of their inner-fire. MR is basically fixed in non-Barbarians. The exact definition of inner-fire is out of the scope of this discussion, but is not truly necessary to understand the interaction of Magic Resistance and spell patterns.
.
. The results of such Magic Resistance can be the utter nullification of a spell, an increase in difficulty or reduction of spell effectiveness, or complete success by the spell caster at overcoming the Magic Resistance of the target.
Since Magic Resistance resists manipulation of mana through an individual, any such manipulation can potentially be resisted. In the case of a Passive Magical Device where there is no such manipulation of mana through an individual, Magic Resistance is undefined (ie. does not 'trigger').
Regards,
GM Damissak
>After reading that I decided to do a bit of testing. If it is a fact that magic isn't used in the creation of the pattern I figured a higher level bard should be able to began a minimum prep enchante without any problem with myself being in the room and dancing a lower level dance. If magic isn't being used to create or sustain the enchante itself then BMR should have had no influence on the thing.
>I found that is not the case, and I find it hard to understand how anyone would buy into the it doesn't use mana in its creation argument.
Uh, this would be the problem we're talking about, and Dart even said, the code doesn't follow the theory. What you just said show's just that. Just because it is like that IG has nothing to do without it should be, so thats a horrible arguement. That's like, after some testing I've found CL used to give horrible nerve damage regardless, so obviously that's how it was meant to be. Obviously that was wrong. A barb just being in the room and stopping the bard from even playing barely makes sense with even the slightest bit of imagination added. Isn't BMR for spells directed against the barb?, This hardly makes barbs even the slightest bit friendly in a triage room, bard's can't even play helpful songs for OTHER guilds. The effects of a bard's song magically don't even start untill part-way into the song anyhow. The first part of the song really does seem by all intentions to be just music.
As for what you cited, none of it makes any mention of an enchante, which as was stated, is not like typical spells such as TM spells or any other AoE like from a warmage's CL or FR. This thread happens to be about the involvement of enchantes with barbs, so obviously that has no relavance.
>I found that is not the case, and I find it hard to understand how anyone would buy into the it doesn't use mana in its creation argument.
Uh, this would be the problem we're talking about, and Dart even said, the code doesn't follow the theory. What you just said show's just that. Just because it is like that IG has nothing to do without it should be, so thats a horrible arguement. That's like, after some testing I've found CL used to give horrible nerve damage regardless, so obviously that's how it was meant to be. Obviously that was wrong. A barb just being in the room and stopping the bard from even playing barely makes sense with even the slightest bit of imagination added. Isn't BMR for spells directed against the barb?, This hardly makes barbs even the slightest bit friendly in a triage room, bard's can't even play helpful songs for OTHER guilds. The effects of a bard's song magically don't even start untill part-way into the song anyhow. The first part of the song really does seem by all intentions to be just music.
As for what you cited, none of it makes any mention of an enchante, which as was stated, is not like typical spells such as TM spells or any other AoE like from a warmage's CL or FR. This thread happens to be about the involvement of enchantes with barbs, so obviously that has no relavance.
I am struggling to find a way to make Bards enchanties work better beyond saying it is a circle issue. Most of the comments have been one big barb and the music dies so to speak.
But with a room full of lower people it still dies. I have not heard of any other mages commenting as much about their area effect spells. There seems to be an issue with how enchanties work with MR/BMR vs how other magic works. Enchanties are area of effect, not targeted. Why are they being effected more by mr/bmr than say Banner or truce or raise power? It seems to me this is the issue that needs to be addressed.
If enchanties worked like the area of effect spells they are, then they would be as helpful/harmful as normal magic.
As for Barb/Bard interactions? There could be an ability that alows us to reduce our BMR or Localize it to be within ourselves. A meditation maybe? Or unless we are in combat (missle range or close to someone) our BMR does not effect enchanties. The music sooths us vs the spell matrix triggering our BMR from non musical spells.
Helpful enchanties... We could learn over time to allow them to effect us. Again taught by our guild leaders starting at 10th or 20th circle and one more every 15 to 25 circles.
Thoughts on this concept?
______
Magdar Bluefletch, Legendary Barbarian of M'Riss
But with a room full of lower people it still dies. I have not heard of any other mages commenting as much about their area effect spells. There seems to be an issue with how enchanties work with MR/BMR vs how other magic works. Enchanties are area of effect, not targeted. Why are they being effected more by mr/bmr than say Banner or truce or raise power? It seems to me this is the issue that needs to be addressed.
If enchanties worked like the area of effect spells they are, then they would be as helpful/harmful as normal magic.
As for Barb/Bard interactions? There could be an ability that alows us to reduce our BMR or Localize it to be within ourselves. A meditation maybe? Or unless we are in combat (missle range or close to someone) our BMR does not effect enchanties. The music sooths us vs the spell matrix triggering our BMR from non musical spells.
Helpful enchanties... We could learn over time to allow them to effect us. Again taught by our guild leaders starting at 10th or 20th circle and one more every 15 to 25 circles.
Thoughts on this concept?
______
Magdar Bluefletch, Legendary Barbarian of M'Riss
>For instance, there was talk in the past about barbarians and bards in fact working together very closely.
The best scenario would be for Barbarians to go out and kill the enemy and come home to Bards singing praises about our bravery and weapon prowess.
But seriously, I think having interactions between enchantes and dances would be pretty cool, but with my limited understanding of magic theory I dont know how to work around the holes since I am used to the "resist all while alive, none while dead" explanation. At least Bards are a creative lot and might think of something.
Ps. The last time I remember dances and enchantes working together I went from rock guardians to being unable to hit a rat...
Pss. No Bardic dragons!
I enjoy mastication. I masticate three to four times a day. Sometimes I masticate alone while in front of my TV and sometimes I masticate with my family.
The best scenario would be for Barbarians to go out and kill the enemy and come home to Bards singing praises about our bravery and weapon prowess.
But seriously, I think having interactions between enchantes and dances would be pretty cool, but with my limited understanding of magic theory I dont know how to work around the holes since I am used to the "resist all while alive, none while dead" explanation. At least Bards are a creative lot and might think of something.
Ps. The last time I remember dances and enchantes working together I went from rock guardians to being unable to hit a rat...
Pss. No Bardic dragons!
I enjoy mastication. I masticate three to four times a day. Sometimes I masticate alone while in front of my TV and sometimes I masticate with my family.
>1.) You manipulate the mana in the area into a spell pattern. Mana does not like to be in any state other than its natural state -- therefore as you manipulate mana, it resists causing a buildup of energy. (This is much like if you bend a metal hanger a bunch of times, the joint at which it is bent gets hot).
So there is friction when you manipulate mana or is that just a bad analogy? Oh, and quoting Valdrik is like poking more holes in magic theory.
I enjoy mastication. I masticate three to four times a day. Sometimes I masticate alone while in front of my TV and sometimes I masticate with my family.
So there is friction when you manipulate mana or is that just a bad analogy? Oh, and quoting Valdrik is like poking more holes in magic theory.
I enjoy mastication. I masticate three to four times a day. Sometimes I masticate alone while in front of my TV and sometimes I masticate with my family.
<<<BMR interfers with magic. Enchantes are Magic. Thats the way it works. Thats the way it should continue to work. Does it bother me a bit that I can't work that close with bards? No more than it doesn't bother me that after I depart a lower level cleric can't cast vigil on me. Or that I screw up courages. Its part of being a member of the guild. If I would have wanted to work with other peoples magic, I'd have been a war mage.>>>
For more then half of your circles and your life (ours actually) We didn't have this collapsing and complete resistance nonsense happening with enchantes. All you big boys lived in the days when it simply didn't happen.
The Ancient Dammasak and the Magic folks had an idea, seems to me there are plenty of players who want to see this interaction music resistance thing tweaked or updated into a more playable version.
Again, kudos to bring this issue to the drawing board.
One idea that was brought up for RP ability, suppose the Ru'atin Peri'el had a couple big barbs out on a drinking binge waltz into the area they were singing to keep the world dragon asleep and Oopsie!
Crash slam collapse.... One wide awake cranky dragon?
In humor,
Tea
For more then half of your circles and your life (ours actually) We didn't have this collapsing and complete resistance nonsense happening with enchantes. All you big boys lived in the days when it simply didn't happen.
The Ancient Dammasak and the Magic folks had an idea, seems to me there are plenty of players who want to see this interaction music resistance thing tweaked or updated into a more playable version.
Again, kudos to bring this issue to the drawing board.
One idea that was brought up for RP ability, suppose the Ru'atin Peri'el had a couple big barbs out on a drinking binge waltz into the area they were singing to keep the world dragon asleep and Oopsie!
Crash slam collapse.... One wide awake cranky dragon?
In humor,
Tea
<<Isn't BMR for spells directed against the barb?>>
The effects of the enchante are affecting the barbarian directly, if he is in the room with the bardic enchante.
<<This hardly makes barbs even the slightest bit friendly in a triage room>>
Barbarians should attempt to resist neutral, beneficial and negative spells.
<<bard's can't even play helpful songs for OTHER guilds>>
Ok, lets say the enchante is created by music, that way the enchante buildup/initial creation cannot be destroyed unless it clashes with another enchante. Than mana takes place to actually affect all individuals in the room by an individual per individual basis. With this way, you can still:
1. Have enchantes created without the spell pattern being destroyed initially.
2. Affect anyone whom you overcame their magical resistance (along with stats).
<<The effects of a bard's song magically don't even start untill part-way into the song anyhow.>>
I hear you. It's a good idea.
- Simon
http://www.phiiskeep.homestead.com/Frontpage.html
"The problem with common sense, is that it is not so common."
The effects of the enchante are affecting the barbarian directly, if he is in the room with the bardic enchante.
<<This hardly makes barbs even the slightest bit friendly in a triage room>>
Barbarians should attempt to resist neutral, beneficial and negative spells.
<<bard's can't even play helpful songs for OTHER guilds>>
Ok, lets say the enchante is created by music, that way the enchante buildup/initial creation cannot be destroyed unless it clashes with another enchante. Than mana takes place to actually affect all individuals in the room by an individual per individual basis. With this way, you can still:
1. Have enchantes created without the spell pattern being destroyed initially.
2. Affect anyone whom you overcame their magical resistance (along with stats).
<<The effects of a bard's song magically don't even start untill part-way into the song anyhow.>>
I hear you. It's a good idea.
- Simon
http://www.phiiskeep.homestead.com/Frontpage.html
"The problem with common sense, is that it is not so common."
>> I have not heard of any other mages commenting as much about their area effect spells.
That's because by the time a mage reaches 50th circle, he/she has about 2000 ranks in PM and Harness. I'm sure you'll never find a Bard who has as much magic as a Warrior Mage of the same circle. I've heard WM's complaining at times, but it's not nearly as much as Bards, simply because their magic skills are lower and it makes it a lot harder to overcome BMR. I don't really see what's more to discuss. Make their enchantes check each person individually and problem solved. This solves the whole "failure" issue with their enchantes
I also don't understand what's all this stuff about Bards and Barbs? Who cares if Barbs can't hunt well with Bards? We don't need them and they don't need us. My own opinion is that if a Bard has to rely on enchantes just to be able to harm a goblin, then they shouldn't hunt with us anyway. This solves the whole "hunting together" issue. This is of course excluding those few bards that I know are pure warriors.
That's because by the time a mage reaches 50th circle, he/she has about 2000 ranks in PM and Harness. I'm sure you'll never find a Bard who has as much magic as a Warrior Mage of the same circle. I've heard WM's complaining at times, but it's not nearly as much as Bards, simply because their magic skills are lower and it makes it a lot harder to overcome BMR. I don't really see what's more to discuss. Make their enchantes check each person individually and problem solved. This solves the whole "failure" issue with their enchantes
I also don't understand what's all this stuff about Bards and Barbs? Who cares if Barbs can't hunt well with Bards? We don't need them and they don't need us. My own opinion is that if a Bard has to rely on enchantes just to be able to harm a goblin, then they shouldn't hunt with us anyway. This solves the whole "hunting together" issue. This is of course excluding those few bards that I know are pure warriors.
> That's because by the time a mage reaches 50th circle, he/she has about 2000 ranks in PM and Harness.
Er...2000 ranks? Given that I just checked 3 100+ circle mages and none of them had 1000 ranks in either PM or Harness yet, I'm thinking this is either a typo, or a tad bit exaggerated. Somewhere in the high 200s for each would be much more accurate.
- GM Dartenian
"You ain't seen nothin' yet!" - Al Jolson
LiveJournal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/dartenian/
Er...2000 ranks? Given that I just checked 3 100+ circle mages and none of them had 1000 ranks in either PM or Harness yet, I'm thinking this is either a typo, or a tad bit exaggerated. Somewhere in the high 200s for each would be much more accurate.
- GM Dartenian
"You ain't seen nothin' yet!" - Al Jolson
LiveJournal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/dartenian/
>> I have not heard of any other mages commenting as much about their area effect spells.
>That's because by the time a mage reaches 50th circle, he/she has about 2000 ranks in PM and Harness. I'm sure you'll never find a Bard who has as much magic as a Warrior Mage of the same circle.
While I'm not aware of all the spells for all the guilds, I'm under the impression that most guilds don't start to get area/group effect spells until later in their careers (I'm sure there are exceptions, and I'm just as sure those exceptions will be gleefully pointed out to me). Bards get these type of enchantes starting with circle 1 - so they run smack into this issue much earlier than members of most other guild do.
So not only does a Warrior Mage (for example) generally have much higher magic skills than a bard in later circles, they usually aren't trying to affect whole rooms of things every single time they cast a spell since the bulk of their spells aren't designed to affect everyone/everything in the room.
>Who cares if Barbs can't hunt well with Bards?
People who are friends and would like to hunt together regardless of guild. People who involve themselves in invasion situations where there are many different guilds trying to help defend the same area. People who design areas for the enjoyment of all players. And so forth.
Personally, I don't want to see people who do like to hunt as a group forced to choose between inviting a bard or a barbarian along for the fun simply because those two guilds have so many issues when hunting together. I'd rather see the issues resolved to the point where the two guilds can coexist and both contribute to the sum of the whole.
~Azimee Ta'Shiza
~Gypsy Songbird
~Tinbird in Training
~~~
If you find yourself confronted by a group of armed guards, be warned that they will attack you in mass. No matter what you have been told by other sources, rest assured that they will not line up to attack you one by one. ~Handbook of Practical Heroics
>That's because by the time a mage reaches 50th circle, he/she has about 2000 ranks in PM and Harness. I'm sure you'll never find a Bard who has as much magic as a Warrior Mage of the same circle.
While I'm not aware of all the spells for all the guilds, I'm under the impression that most guilds don't start to get area/group effect spells until later in their careers (I'm sure there are exceptions, and I'm just as sure those exceptions will be gleefully pointed out to me). Bards get these type of enchantes starting with circle 1 - so they run smack into this issue much earlier than members of most other guild do.
So not only does a Warrior Mage (for example) generally have much higher magic skills than a bard in later circles, they usually aren't trying to affect whole rooms of things every single time they cast a spell since the bulk of their spells aren't designed to affect everyone/everything in the room.
>Who cares if Barbs can't hunt well with Bards?
People who are friends and would like to hunt together regardless of guild. People who involve themselves in invasion situations where there are many different guilds trying to help defend the same area. People who design areas for the enjoyment of all players. And so forth.
Personally, I don't want to see people who do like to hunt as a group forced to choose between inviting a bard or a barbarian along for the fun simply because those two guilds have so many issues when hunting together. I'd rather see the issues resolved to the point where the two guilds can coexist and both contribute to the sum of the whole.
~Azimee Ta'Shiza
~Gypsy Songbird
~Tinbird in Training
~~~
If you find yourself confronted by a group of armed guards, be warned that they will attack you in mass. No matter what you have been told by other sources, rest assured that they will not line up to attack you one by one. ~Handbook of Practical Heroics
I don't think there should be a way to lower your BMR via meditation.
How about a meditation that helps be "in tuned" with the environment around you? Giving it a boost to defend against stealth attacks and boost to interacting with enchantes that are more song oriented.
This would be the toggle (that some folks seem to request for) that would help Bardic enchantes work better with Barbarians. Although, they'd still have magical resistance to contend with. Depending on if the Bardic enchante is beneficial and more song oriented than mana oriented, Barbarians would listen to it and feel the affects of it. If it were a Bardic enchante that were negative with being more song oriented than mana oriented, the Barbarian would attempt to resist his environment and avoid the song's affects on him.
>meditate environment/surroundings
- Simon
http://www.phiiskeep.homestead.com/Frontpage.html
"The problem with common sense, is that it is not so common."
How about a meditation that helps be "in tuned" with the environment around you? Giving it a boost to defend against stealth attacks and boost to interacting with enchantes that are more song oriented.
This would be the toggle (that some folks seem to request for) that would help Bardic enchantes work better with Barbarians. Although, they'd still have magical resistance to contend with. Depending on if the Bardic enchante is beneficial and more song oriented than mana oriented, Barbarians would listen to it and feel the affects of it. If it were a Bardic enchante that were negative with being more song oriented than mana oriented, the Barbarian would attempt to resist his environment and avoid the song's affects on him.
>meditate environment/surroundings
- Simon
http://www.phiiskeep.homestead.com/Frontpage.html
"The problem with common sense, is that it is not so common."
>The effects of the enchante are affecting the barbarian directly, if he is in the room with the bardic enchante.
So, why stop the entire spell? Stop the pattern towards that barbarian. After BMR wins the contest over the spell, the spell no longer touches that barb, the song keeps going for everyone else, effects and all, and that barb is cut out of the song's effect, all he hears after that is music. If the bard wins the BMR, the barb takes a small IF hit, regardless of how high that bard's song is, for benificial, then harmful song effects can work just like a TM spell vs a bard wise. Just an idea anyway.
So, why stop the entire spell? Stop the pattern towards that barbarian. After BMR wins the contest over the spell, the spell no longer touches that barb, the song keeps going for everyone else, effects and all, and that barb is cut out of the song's effect, all he hears after that is music. If the bard wins the BMR, the barb takes a small IF hit, regardless of how high that bard's song is, for benificial, then harmful song effects can work just like a TM spell vs a bard wise. Just an idea anyway.
<<So, why stop the entire spell? Stop the pattern towards that barbarian.>>
If I understand the idea correctly, that is what it would do. Once the enchante is created via song, it would cause affects via mana inputted into it. The (the affects) mana would be resistable on an individual to individual basis.
<<After BMR wins the contest over the spell, the spell no longer touches that barb, the song keeps going for everyone else, effects and all, and that barb is cut out of the song's effect,>>
Right.
<<If the bard wins the BMR, the barb takes a small IF hit, regardless of how high that bard's song is>>
Right.
- Simon
http://www.phiiskeep.homestead.com/Frontpage.html
"The problem with common sense, is that it is not so common."
If I understand the idea correctly, that is what it would do. Once the enchante is created via song, it would cause affects via mana inputted into it. The (the affects) mana would be resistable on an individual to individual basis.
<<After BMR wins the contest over the spell, the spell no longer touches that barb, the song keeps going for everyone else, effects and all, and that barb is cut out of the song's effect,>>
Right.
<<If the bard wins the BMR, the barb takes a small IF hit, regardless of how high that bard's song is>>
Right.
- Simon
http://www.phiiskeep.homestead.com/Frontpage.html
"The problem with common sense, is that it is not so common."
>>So, why stop the entire spell? Stop the pattern towards that barbarian. After BMR wins the contest over the spell, the spell no longer touches that barb, the song keeps going for everyone else, effects and all, and that barb is cut out of the song's effect, all he hears after that is music. If the bard wins the BMR, the barb takes a small IF hit, regardless of how high that bard's song is, for benificial, then harmful song effects can work just like a TM spell vs a bard wise. Just an idea anyway.
This is exactly how I think it should be. This will make it so that it'd be more fitting for the Bard, and they won't have as much problems as they're having now. No need to tweak, fix, fiddle, or mess with BMR just because Bards lack the ranks to overcome BMR or simply because they want to be able to hunt with Barbs.
I can see reason for wanting to mess with BMR if it's not coded like it should be, but because a few Bards want to help a Barb with his abilities? If a Bard's only concern is helping out in invasions and such, then why argue against what we've been saying the whole time? (Which is to have each person checked individually)
This is exactly how I think it should be. This will make it so that it'd be more fitting for the Bard, and they won't have as much problems as they're having now. No need to tweak, fix, fiddle, or mess with BMR just because Bards lack the ranks to overcome BMR or simply because they want to be able to hunt with Barbs.
I can see reason for wanting to mess with BMR if it's not coded like it should be, but because a few Bards want to help a Barb with his abilities? If a Bard's only concern is helping out in invasions and such, then why argue against what we've been saying the whole time? (Which is to have each person checked individually)
<<I can see reason for wanting to mess with BMR if it's not coded like it should be, but because a few Bards want to help a Barb with his abilities?
Just to be clear about this, there are considerably more issues with BMR than the enchante issue being discussed here. Enchantes are not the driving force behind a review of MR and BMR, but they are an issue that we believe needs to be addressed.
Gamemaster Iayn
Barbarian Liaison
Just to be clear about this, there are considerably more issues with BMR than the enchante issue being discussed here. Enchantes are not the driving force behind a review of MR and BMR, but they are an issue that we believe needs to be addressed.
Gamemaster Iayn
Barbarian Liaison
Some thoughts from a new old timer...
1.) No BMR on/off toggle. Silly and not a good thing in my opinion. This is an RPG where we sign up for the profession, lock-stock-and-barrel
2.) Split Enchantes into two parts - music and magic. On a pulse of the enchante if the magic portion, the part that is causing the effect desired by the bard, loses the MR battle then it fails but the music continues. At the next pulse the check is done again. This would allow the magical effect (pattern) to fail but have the potential to restart again on subsequent pulses. I think you get the gist but I can explain further if you want.
3.)
>So, why stop the entire spell? Stop the pattern towards that barbarian. After BMR wins the contest over the spell, the spell no longer touches that barb, the song keeps going for everyone else, effects and all, and that barb is cut out of the song's effect, all he hears after that is music. If the bard wins the BMR, the barb takes a small IF hit, regardless of how high that bard's song is, for benificial, then harmful song effects can work just like a TM spell vs a bard wise. Just an idea anyway.
Because the pattern passes through the barbarian and affects the whole of the enchante. This isn't a magic shield that the flows of magic can go around, it is a resistance to break the whole pattern. With my #2 proposal this would not matter once the MR battle was "won" again on a subsequent pulse of the enchante. This is why I'm not really for the individual check on the enchante. It's not a targeted spell, it's an area affect magical (and musical) pattern that is either intact or not.
Rhadyn da Dwarb
1.) No BMR on/off toggle. Silly and not a good thing in my opinion. This is an RPG where we sign up for the profession, lock-stock-and-barrel
2.) Split Enchantes into two parts - music and magic. On a pulse of the enchante if the magic portion, the part that is causing the effect desired by the bard, loses the MR battle then it fails but the music continues. At the next pulse the check is done again. This would allow the magical effect (pattern) to fail but have the potential to restart again on subsequent pulses. I think you get the gist but I can explain further if you want.
3.)
>So, why stop the entire spell? Stop the pattern towards that barbarian. After BMR wins the contest over the spell, the spell no longer touches that barb, the song keeps going for everyone else, effects and all, and that barb is cut out of the song's effect, all he hears after that is music. If the bard wins the BMR, the barb takes a small IF hit, regardless of how high that bard's song is, for benificial, then harmful song effects can work just like a TM spell vs a bard wise. Just an idea anyway.
Because the pattern passes through the barbarian and affects the whole of the enchante. This isn't a magic shield that the flows of magic can go around, it is a resistance to break the whole pattern. With my #2 proposal this would not matter once the MR battle was "won" again on a subsequent pulse of the enchante. This is why I'm not really for the individual check on the enchante. It's not a targeted spell, it's an area affect magical (and musical) pattern that is either intact or not.
Rhadyn da Dwarb
Like Gilvore said a while back, make it so barbs receive no hits/or bonuses from beneficial magic in a group setting, have the BARB toggle if they want to receive the bonus. This would include Zephyr, healing and raising. If a barb wants to be healed, raised or lilted, they 'toggle on' or consent to be affected by magic, like herbs for a deader. And then they would lose their inner fire for a in game day. As far as the non beneficial spells or enchantes go make it a indv vs indv contest. No stacking of MR.
Robo
The mist flows out from where Roboson sat, wavers a moment, then disappears.
>
>"scuse me!
You exclaim, "scuse me!"
>blush
You blush a bright red color.
Robo
The mist flows out from where Roboson sat, wavers a moment, then disappears.
>
>"scuse me!
You exclaim, "scuse me!"
>blush
You blush a bright red color.
> I can see reason for wanting to mess with BMR if it's not coded like it should be
It's not. There are several known bugs, major issues, and even at least one unfinished aspect of Magic Resistance that need to be addressed. In addition, long-overdue fixes to the SvS contests will absolutely require some tweaks to MR as well. I'd list specific examples, but I've already done that multiple times.
Magic Resistance is overdue for some serious attention. It simply has too many issues, and there are too many other things that need to be done that we can't do until those are resolved. The Barbarian Team will be involved every step of the way, and I can assure you nobody is out to "get" you. Will some of the fixes negatively impact you? Yes. Will some benefit you? Yes. Is addressing these issues optional? No.
- GM Dartenian
"You ain't seen nothin' yet!" - Al Jolson
LiveJournal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/dartenian/
It's not. There are several known bugs, major issues, and even at least one unfinished aspect of Magic Resistance that need to be addressed. In addition, long-overdue fixes to the SvS contests will absolutely require some tweaks to MR as well. I'd list specific examples, but I've already done that multiple times.
Magic Resistance is overdue for some serious attention. It simply has too many issues, and there are too many other things that need to be done that we can't do until those are resolved. The Barbarian Team will be involved every step of the way, and I can assure you nobody is out to "get" you. Will some of the fixes negatively impact you? Yes. Will some benefit you? Yes. Is addressing these issues optional? No.
- GM Dartenian
"You ain't seen nothin' yet!" - Al Jolson
LiveJournal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/dartenian/
>>And then they would lose their inner fire for a in game day.
Bleh, what fun is that? To get healed I need to lose my IF for a day? What game are you playing, heh, that is so horribly ridiculous. That would be a crazy nerf to barbs. Not to mention transferance (empathy) is a lore skill and not a magic skill...
I know some people don't like a toggle of any kind. So, I've tried to think of what would yet make sense. My thought is do the good ol' MR check as follows:
Passive Enchantes
Faenella's Grace - learning bonus
Lilt - Health bonus
Naming of Tears - defense boinus
Pride - fear resistance
Misdirection - a steal buff it seems?
Aura of Tongues - Speak languages.
Nagas - Restoration bonus?
Eye of Kertigen - Self perception bonus kinda?
Ellie's Cry - entirely self magic it seems, with some ranged musical qualities
Rage of Clans - entirely musical bonus to combat
Caress of the Sun - hard to say, but not aggressive.
Merelew's Legacy - water breathing, but pushes the water away instead of interacting directly with ones' lungs.
Pyre - aggressive, but is affecting the naptha not the person around.
Resonance - entirely self effecting it seems
Drums of the Snake - musical bonus to survival skills
Aggressive Enchantes
Balm - calm kind of naturally goes against the nature of IF and barbs.
Sanctuary - very high magic interaction as stated in the enchante description
Resolve - highly aggressive enchante
Nexus - Direct magic manipulation
Aether Wolves - Aggressive Wolf Fear
Abandoned Heart - direct music/magic combination causing wounds to rip open, aggressive.
Maelstrom - aggressive magic/music combo.
Passive enchantes do not hurt IF. To affect the barb they need to overcome his MR, however an individual's MR does not destroy the enchante.
Aggressive enchantes can hurt IF, but less than they do currently. There is a SINGLE IF HIT the first time a barb encounters such an enchante, and that contest determines the remainer of the effect. BMR fully affects the enchante for that person only, and does not destroy it for the area.
Any ideas? I think it serves several useful purposes. One it allows Barbs and Bards to hunt together, and depending on the levels of everyone involved occasionally get a small bonus (whatever leaks past their MR) from the musical portions of the enchante. They still resist it, but they don't destroy the pattern.
For aggressive enchantes the barb still resists it much like they do now. However the IF hit isn't a constant thing every X seconds. Furthermore it means barbs hunting with bards will actually be possible now. And, bards HUNTING bards still face problems where their aggressive enchantes might not have as large an effect as they are hoping for :P Thoughts?
http://www.drplat.com - The DragonRealms Platinum Community Website. Be sure to vote DragonRealms as your #1 MUD!
Bleh, what fun is that? To get healed I need to lose my IF for a day? What game are you playing, heh, that is so horribly ridiculous. That would be a crazy nerf to barbs. Not to mention transferance (empathy) is a lore skill and not a magic skill...
I know some people don't like a toggle of any kind. So, I've tried to think of what would yet make sense. My thought is do the good ol' MR check as follows:
Passive Enchantes
Faenella's Grace - learning bonus
Lilt - Health bonus
Naming of Tears - defense boinus
Pride - fear resistance
Misdirection - a steal buff it seems?
Aura of Tongues - Speak languages.
Nagas - Restoration bonus?
Eye of Kertigen - Self perception bonus kinda?
Ellie's Cry - entirely self magic it seems, with some ranged musical qualities
Rage of Clans - entirely musical bonus to combat
Caress of the Sun - hard to say, but not aggressive.
Merelew's Legacy - water breathing, but pushes the water away instead of interacting directly with ones' lungs.
Pyre - aggressive, but is affecting the naptha not the person around.
Resonance - entirely self effecting it seems
Drums of the Snake - musical bonus to survival skills
Aggressive Enchantes
Balm - calm kind of naturally goes against the nature of IF and barbs.
Sanctuary - very high magic interaction as stated in the enchante description
Resolve - highly aggressive enchante
Nexus - Direct magic manipulation
Aether Wolves - Aggressive Wolf Fear
Abandoned Heart - direct music/magic combination causing wounds to rip open, aggressive.
Maelstrom - aggressive magic/music combo.
Passive enchantes do not hurt IF. To affect the barb they need to overcome his MR, however an individual's MR does not destroy the enchante.
Aggressive enchantes can hurt IF, but less than they do currently. There is a SINGLE IF HIT the first time a barb encounters such an enchante, and that contest determines the remainer of the effect. BMR fully affects the enchante for that person only, and does not destroy it for the area.
Any ideas? I think it serves several useful purposes. One it allows Barbs and Bards to hunt together, and depending on the levels of everyone involved occasionally get a small bonus (whatever leaks past their MR) from the musical portions of the enchante. They still resist it, but they don't destroy the pattern.
For aggressive enchantes the barb still resists it much like they do now. However the IF hit isn't a constant thing every X seconds. Furthermore it means barbs hunting with bards will actually be possible now. And, bards HUNTING bards still face problems where their aggressive enchantes might not have as large an effect as they are hoping for :P Thoughts?
http://www.drplat.com - The DragonRealms Platinum Community Website. Be sure to vote DragonRealms as your #1 MUD!
<<Not to mention transferance (empathy) is a lore skill and not a magic skill...>>
My bad, i didnt know this. But, who was the rocket scientist that made taking wounds in a magical way a lore skill? By that argument, our music is lore also, so it shouldnt have any effect.
Robo
The mist flows out from where Roboson sat, wavers a moment, then disappears.
>
>"scuse me!
You exclaim, "scuse me!"
>blush
You blush a bright red color.
My bad, i didnt know this. But, who was the rocket scientist that made taking wounds in a magical way a lore skill? By that argument, our music is lore also, so it shouldnt have any effect.
Robo
The mist flows out from where Roboson sat, wavers a moment, then disappears.
>
>"scuse me!
You exclaim, "scuse me!"
>blush
You blush a bright red color.
"That's because by the time a mage reaches 50th circle, he/she has about 2000 ranks in PM and Harness. I'm sure you'll never find a Bard who has as much magic as a Warrior Mage of the same circle"
Thats because your compareing Primary to Secondary wich is the same as compareing a Barbs weapon ranks to a clerics.
"I also don't understand what's all this stuff about Bards and Barbs? Who cares if Barbs can't hunt well with Bards"
The issue is actualy more than just BMR. Its MR in general this thread was just started as a way to get opinions from thoughs who have the highest MR oh and us Bards were invited over by your GM
"Not to mention transferance (empathy) is a lore skill and not a magic skill..."
And Music is a lore skill as well. Now I've never played an Empath before but are you saying that when an Empath mysticaly takes away your wounds they dont use any mana at all? IF so all I can say is Damn, I want our enchantes to work this way!
Personaly I like the idea of the checking each person seperately. I'd also like for us to get a Bonus to over comeing MR do to the fact that it is a combination of 2 lores and magic skills that go into factoring it out. If you want an IC way of looking at it, the Music actualy hides the mana and Barbs just arnt smart enough to notice the magical part.
Thanks,
Kleis
Thats because your compareing Primary to Secondary wich is the same as compareing a Barbs weapon ranks to a clerics.
"I also don't understand what's all this stuff about Bards and Barbs? Who cares if Barbs can't hunt well with Bards"
The issue is actualy more than just BMR. Its MR in general this thread was just started as a way to get opinions from thoughs who have the highest MR oh and us Bards were invited over by your GM
"Not to mention transferance (empathy) is a lore skill and not a magic skill..."
And Music is a lore skill as well. Now I've never played an Empath before but are you saying that when an Empath mysticaly takes away your wounds they dont use any mana at all? IF so all I can say is Damn, I want our enchantes to work this way!
Personaly I like the idea of the checking each person seperately. I'd also like for us to get a Bonus to over comeing MR do to the fact that it is a combination of 2 lores and magic skills that go into factoring it out. If you want an IC way of looking at it, the Music actualy hides the mana and Barbs just arnt smart enough to notice the magical part.
Thanks,
Kleis
>>Magic Resistance is overdue for some serious attention. It simply has too many issues, and there are too many other things that need to be done that we can't do until those are resolved. The Barbarian Team will be involved every step of the way, and I can assure you nobody is out to "get" you. Will some of the fixes negatively impact you? Yes. Will some benefit you? Yes. Is addressing these issues optional? No.
I see. All I knew was that suddenly Bards started posting about making BMR obsolete with enchantes and a whole bunch of stuff, and I was like... whoa, whoa, wait a minute. Then suddenly their "reasoning" behind it was so that Barbs and Bards can hunt together. Anyway, I know change is a part of DR, and since MR needs attention then I say plug right at it.
I agree that there really shouldn't be a toggle for BMR. I've always viewed it as a part of any Barbarian and not something you can just switch on and off. Though, the idea of using a meditation to sort of suppress our BMR was not a bad one at all. I just think that if we did get a meditation like that, it should probably benefit us in another way other than for letting bards do their enchantes. In the end, hopefully the change benefit Bards and doesn't hurt Barbs too bad. We'll adjust to to the situation and remain on top. (No offense, bards)
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
I see. All I knew was that suddenly Bards started posting about making BMR obsolete with enchantes and a whole bunch of stuff, and I was like... whoa, whoa, wait a minute. Then suddenly their "reasoning" behind it was so that Barbs and Bards can hunt together. Anyway, I know change is a part of DR, and since MR needs attention then I say plug right at it.
I agree that there really shouldn't be a toggle for BMR. I've always viewed it as a part of any Barbarian and not something you can just switch on and off. Though, the idea of using a meditation to sort of suppress our BMR was not a bad one at all. I just think that if we did get a meditation like that, it should probably benefit us in another way other than for letting bards do their enchantes. In the end, hopefully the change benefit Bards and doesn't hurt Barbs too bad. We'll adjust to to the situation and remain on top. (No offense, bards)
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
I was thinking... Can we get a new roar that makes a Bard tone deaf so they cant play an instrument and shouldnt the roar that makes opponents shake with fear disrupt their enchante? Can we also get a "cantrip" roar that makes others ears ring for awhile or give everyone tinnitus?
I enjoy mastication. I masticate three to four times a day. Sometimes I masticate alone while in front of my TV and sometimes I masticate with my family.
I enjoy mastication. I masticate three to four times a day. Sometimes I masticate alone while in front of my TV and sometimes I masticate with my family.
>Can we get a new roar that makes a Bard tone deaf so they cant play an instrument and shouldnt the roar that makes opponents shake with fear disrupt their enchante?
Only if roars start making a vocal skill check to successfully perform :) And the vocal skill should contest against the bard's skill in the instrument you're trying to make them stop playing.
~Azimee
~~~
If you find yourself confronted by a group of armed guards, be warned that they will attack you in mass. No matter what you have been told by other sources, rest assured that they will not line up to attack you one by one. ~Handbook of Practical Heroics
Only if roars start making a vocal skill check to successfully perform :) And the vocal skill should contest against the bard's skill in the instrument you're trying to make them stop playing.
~Azimee
~~~
If you find yourself confronted by a group of armed guards, be warned that they will attack you in mass. No matter what you have been told by other sources, rest assured that they will not line up to attack you one by one. ~Handbook of Practical Heroics
>And the vocal skill should contest against the bard's skill in the instrument you're trying to make them stop playing.
That would actually make some type of sense...and because we obviously can't have that here it would go more in tune with everything else if in this case a barbarians mech skill was checked versus a bards secondary armor skill.
Ternith
___
I know that I will die in battle, this I have accepted. I hope that it will be one of my own choosing, but if not do not bury me in a small, sad little cemetary. Burn me and spread my ashes to a strong western wind that I might make my way home.
That would actually make some type of sense...and because we obviously can't have that here it would go more in tune with everything else if in this case a barbarians mech skill was checked versus a bards secondary armor skill.
Ternith
___
I know that I will die in battle, this I have accepted. I hope that it will be one of my own choosing, but if not do not bury me in a small, sad little cemetary. Burn me and spread my ashes to a strong western wind that I might make my way home.
>Try ROAR WAIL.
I did. That didn't work.
Xxxxxx's voice soars into the high reaches of the spectrum, each note ringing purely as she continues to sing her enchante.
>scream war
Your eyes flare and your face contorts to emphasize your warpaint.
Roundtime: 3 sec.
R>ber night
Growling like a dog latched onto a fresh kill, you delight in the power and rage of your bloodthirst. Dark crimson fills your view, showing your enemies as the victims they truly are!
>scream helm
A feral scream rips from your lungs and shakes your horned helm to trembling. You feel terrifying.
Roundtime: 2 seconds.
R>roar wail
The technique of the Banshee's Wail flows fluidly through your mind an instant before you unleash its power through a roar of fatal intent.
Xxxxxx appears frozen with fear!
A passerby watches the goings-on, then heads off, yelling for the Langa Mihman to arrest Ternith for disturbing the peace!
"The crazed Barbarian Ternith is frothing at the mouth! He looks hungry!" he cries, his voice quaking with terror.
You feel somewhat less terrifying.
Xxxxxx's voice soars into the high reaches of the spectrum, each note ringing purely as she continues to sing her enchante.
Xxxxxx says, "nope"
Ternith Sjomah
___
I know that I will die in battle, this I have accepted. I hope that it will be one of my own choosing, but if not do not bury me in a small, sad little cemetary. Burn me and spread my ashes to a strong western wind that I might make my way home.
I did. That didn't work.
Xxxxxx's voice soars into the high reaches of the spectrum, each note ringing purely as she continues to sing her enchante.
>scream war
Your eyes flare and your face contorts to emphasize your warpaint.
Roundtime: 3 sec.
R>ber night
Growling like a dog latched onto a fresh kill, you delight in the power and rage of your bloodthirst. Dark crimson fills your view, showing your enemies as the victims they truly are!
>scream helm
A feral scream rips from your lungs and shakes your horned helm to trembling. You feel terrifying.
Roundtime: 2 seconds.
R>roar wail
The technique of the Banshee's Wail flows fluidly through your mind an instant before you unleash its power through a roar of fatal intent.
Xxxxxx appears frozen with fear!
A passerby watches the goings-on, then heads off, yelling for the Langa Mihman to arrest Ternith for disturbing the peace!
"The crazed Barbarian Ternith is frothing at the mouth! He looks hungry!" he cries, his voice quaking with terror.
You feel somewhat less terrifying.
Xxxxxx's voice soars into the high reaches of the spectrum, each note ringing purely as she continues to sing her enchante.
Xxxxxx says, "nope"
Ternith Sjomah
___
I know that I will die in battle, this I have accepted. I hope that it will be one of my own choosing, but if not do not bury me in a small, sad little cemetary. Burn me and spread my ashes to a strong western wind that I might make my way home.
If this is the same Bardess I believe you said she is like 16 circles higher than you. There is a good chance that her stats are well set up to resist your Roar. It seems a lot of bards train both Charisma and Discipline up from early on. Then again I could have completely missed something in your post
Thanks,
Kleis
Thanks,
Kleis
>Only if roars start making a vocal skill check to successfully perform :) And the vocal skill should contest against the bard's skill in the instrument you're trying to make them stop playing.
Why a skill check? We arent trying win American Idol, we are scaring the crap out of you. I'll take Conan (not O'Brien) over any Americal Idol any day ;)
I enjoy mastication. I masticate three to four times a day. Sometimes I masticate alone while in front of my TV and sometimes I masticate with my family.
Why a skill check? We arent trying win American Idol, we are scaring the crap out of you. I'll take Conan (not O'Brien) over any Americal Idol any day ;)
I enjoy mastication. I masticate three to four times a day. Sometimes I masticate alone while in front of my TV and sometimes I masticate with my family.
>There is a good chance that her stats are well set up to resist your Roar. It seems a lot of bards train both Charisma and Discipline up from early on. Then again I could have completely missed something in your post
>Xxxxxx appears frozen with fear!
She didn't resist it. She was immobilized. It didn't interupt her enchante. Granted I didn't think it would, but I was just showing that no we really didn't have a roar that was capable of interupting an enchante. Granted what Iayn just said now is completely accurate; they won't be "starting" any enchantes while they are immobilized.
Now that I think about this though i'll have to try this again with Drums of the Snake. Its been a while since I played a bard, but if things are still the same as they were Drums was played with a percussion instrument. It would seem that due to this enchante not being sung or chanted that it should be interuptable. If the music stops, as has been stated that its music that creates the pattern of the spell not magic, the enchante itself should end correct?
Ternith Sjomah
___
I know that I will die in battle, this I have accepted. I hope that it will be one of my own choosing, but if not do not bury me in a small, sad little cemetary. Burn me and spread my ashes to a strong western wind that I might make my way home.
>Xxxxxx appears frozen with fear!
She didn't resist it. She was immobilized. It didn't interupt her enchante. Granted I didn't think it would, but I was just showing that no we really didn't have a roar that was capable of interupting an enchante. Granted what Iayn just said now is completely accurate; they won't be "starting" any enchantes while they are immobilized.
Now that I think about this though i'll have to try this again with Drums of the Snake. Its been a while since I played a bard, but if things are still the same as they were Drums was played with a percussion instrument. It would seem that due to this enchante not being sung or chanted that it should be interuptable. If the music stops, as has been stated that its music that creates the pattern of the spell not magic, the enchante itself should end correct?
Ternith Sjomah
___
I know that I will die in battle, this I have accepted. I hope that it will be one of my own choosing, but if not do not bury me in a small, sad little cemetary. Burn me and spread my ashes to a strong western wind that I might make my way home.
<<Now I've never played an Empath before but are you saying that when an Empath mysticaly takes away your wounds they dont use any mana at all?>>
Taking wounds uses no mana whatsoever. The empath heals themselves with mana and spells.
<<Can we get a new roar that makes a Bard tone deaf so they cant play an instrument and shouldnt the roar that makes opponents shake with fear disrupt their enchante?>>
Death's lullaby.
<<Only if roars start making a vocal skill check to successfully perform :)>>
Roars don't work like that. Vocals are only used for voice recovery.
<<That would actually make some type of sense...and because we obviously can't have that here it would go more in tune with everything else if in this case a barbarians mech skill was checked versus a bards secondary armor skill.>>
I want my Barbarian's trading skills to match up against a thief's hiding skills. Oh yes!
<<There is a good chance that her stats are well set up to resist your Roar.>>Kleis
<<Xxxxxx appears frozen with fear!>>Ternith
...
<<Can we get a new roar that makes a Bard tone deaf so they cant play an instrument and shouldnt the roar that makes opponents shake with fear disrupt their enchante?>>Rayje
<<Well, they aren't going to start anything while immobilized.>>
I think Rayje was referring to after the bard starts playing, he is too shaking with fear to continue playing on the intrustment to disrupt their enchante. Not the initialization of the enchante.
<<We arent trying win American Idol, we are scaring the crap out of you. I'll take Conan (not O'Brien) over any Americal Idol any day ;)>>
I've never seen American Idol yet. I wonder if it's good. Hmm..
<<She didn't resist it. She was immobilized. It didn't interupt her enchante. Granted I didn't think it would, but I was just showing that no we really didn't have a roar that was capable of interupting an enchante. Granted what Iayn just said now is completely accurate; they won't be "starting" any enchantes while they are immobilized.>>
Damn, Ternith wrote what I'm writing now.
How about that Barbarian meditation that allows him to better observe his surroundings. Giving him a boost to defending stealth attacks and benefiting the enchantes (the beneficial ones that Renwulf listed) and resisting the negative enchantes (the negative ones that Renwulf listed). BTW, good job on the list, Renwulf.
- Simon
http://www.phiiskeep.homestead.com/Frontpage.html
"The problem with common sense, is that it is not so common."
Taking wounds uses no mana whatsoever. The empath heals themselves with mana and spells.
<<Can we get a new roar that makes a Bard tone deaf so they cant play an instrument and shouldnt the roar that makes opponents shake with fear disrupt their enchante?>>
Death's lullaby.
<<Only if roars start making a vocal skill check to successfully perform :)>>
Roars don't work like that. Vocals are only used for voice recovery.
<<That would actually make some type of sense...and because we obviously can't have that here it would go more in tune with everything else if in this case a barbarians mech skill was checked versus a bards secondary armor skill.>>
I want my Barbarian's trading skills to match up against a thief's hiding skills. Oh yes!
<<There is a good chance that her stats are well set up to resist your Roar.>>Kleis
<<Xxxxxx appears frozen with fear!>>Ternith
...
<<Can we get a new roar that makes a Bard tone deaf so they cant play an instrument and shouldnt the roar that makes opponents shake with fear disrupt their enchante?>>Rayje
<<Well, they aren't going to start anything while immobilized.>>
I think Rayje was referring to after the bard starts playing, he is too shaking with fear to continue playing on the intrustment to disrupt their enchante. Not the initialization of the enchante.
<<We arent trying win American Idol, we are scaring the crap out of you. I'll take Conan (not O'Brien) over any Americal Idol any day ;)>>
I've never seen American Idol yet. I wonder if it's good. Hmm..
<<She didn't resist it. She was immobilized. It didn't interupt her enchante. Granted I didn't think it would, but I was just showing that no we really didn't have a roar that was capable of interupting an enchante. Granted what Iayn just said now is completely accurate; they won't be "starting" any enchantes while they are immobilized.>>
Damn, Ternith wrote what I'm writing now.
How about that Barbarian meditation that allows him to better observe his surroundings. Giving him a boost to defending stealth attacks and benefiting the enchantes (the beneficial ones that Renwulf listed) and resisting the negative enchantes (the negative ones that Renwulf listed). BTW, good job on the list, Renwulf.
- Simon
http://www.phiiskeep.homestead.com/Frontpage.html
"The problem with common sense, is that it is not so common."
"<<Xxxxxx appears frozen with fear!>>Ternith"
Yup I missed that line in his post. How long was she frozen for? I know when I'm stunned my enchante will continue till it pulses, then the stun will register and the song will stop. Other than crashing I'm pretty sure stuns are the only thing that makes us stop singing.
"Taking wounds uses no mana whatsoever. The empath heals themselves with mana and spells."
Nice perk for lore prime, to bad our enchantes mechanics arnt set up this way. Sounds like in theory thats how they are sapposed to work
"Roars don't work like that. Vocals are only used for voice recovery."
Maybe that should be changed since you are useing your voice after all
Thanks,
Kleis
Yup I missed that line in his post. How long was she frozen for? I know when I'm stunned my enchante will continue till it pulses, then the stun will register and the song will stop. Other than crashing I'm pretty sure stuns are the only thing that makes us stop singing.
"Taking wounds uses no mana whatsoever. The empath heals themselves with mana and spells."
Nice perk for lore prime, to bad our enchantes mechanics arnt set up this way. Sounds like in theory thats how they are sapposed to work
"Roars don't work like that. Vocals are only used for voice recovery."
Maybe that should be changed since you are useing your voice after all
Thanks,
Kleis
>>Maybe that should be changed since you are useing your voice after all
Only for a part of the roar. Our charisma, intensity, bearing, ... are probably all included in our roars. Wilstead might like to get vocal training by roaring, but there are barbarians who dislike learning lores almost as much as magic.
mfberg
Only for a part of the roar. Our charisma, intensity, bearing, ... are probably all included in our roars. Wilstead might like to get vocal training by roaring, but there are barbarians who dislike learning lores almost as much as magic.
mfberg
<<Sounds like in theory thats how they are sapposed to work>>
What theory are you talking about?
<<Maybe that should be changed since you are useing your voice after all>>
Please read the roar folder.
- Simon
http://www.phiiskeep.homestead.com/Frontpage.html
"The problem with common sense, is that it is not so common."
What theory are you talking about?
<<Maybe that should be changed since you are useing your voice after all>>
Please read the roar folder.
- Simon
http://www.phiiskeep.homestead.com/Frontpage.html
"The problem with common sense, is that it is not so common."
