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Is there any chance that barbarians could please get a pulsing invisibility ability akin to silence, since we have a path that thematically is stealth-based? It seems rather fitting.
"If swords ever cross, the Barbarian shall be the one left standing." - Guild Leader Agonar
Thanks Squanto! Good to see you still guiding the young! As for panther, its a high up ability in the predator tree so to use it we need higher skills it seems. As said before, for well rounded barbarians such as myself it would be nice to use it in hunting and what not, but due to the heavy cost its not viable. Considering how stealth in pvp/pve is at the moment, and considering what it "seems" to do, maybe it could be taken down on the tree a bit so its viable for younger barbarians? If left in place, maybe made a bit stronger...something like help with armor stealth hinder?
Eh, as I was telling someone the other day... you can get Panther if you shoot for it within 20 circles. That really isn't much more than a few weeks of effort. Panther provides a capped stealth buff (buffs no longer have "strengths"), so there isn't anything else I can toss into it. Barbarians cannot get an inviso ability.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
I'll look into the discipline thing. Why not use a stun/immob roar to help you hide on enemies? Or try tossing dirt in your enemies' faces?
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
I'm not sure why we penalize players for using disablers, so maybe fixing that will remedy the problem better than giving you more buffs.
Barbarians are at the global cap for stealth buffs. I could give you another, but the Core system would just reject the second one.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
Barbarians are at the global cap for stealth buffs. I could give you another, but the Core system would just reject the second one.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
I don't think the most compelling reasons for having invis as part of one's arsenal have to do with training. Invis is much more effective in PvP than mundane stealth, it makes it easier to disengage from combat and it allows the person using the ability to walk around undetected without sneaking.
I could definitely be wrong, but I suspect that some of the increased difficulty training stealth is an incidental effect of wounds accumulating randomly in combat; wounds make hiding a lot tougher.
I could definitely be wrong, but I suspect that some of the increased difficulty training stealth is an incidental effect of wounds accumulating randomly in combat; wounds make hiding a lot tougher.
I agree that a discipline buff would be perfect for panther, for barbarians discipline is super important so it makes sense. I also agree with making it so using disabling abilities on mobs does not hurt our training, both of these are great ideas. It takes discipline and focus to use stealth to gain position on prey, I say go for it.
>I could definitely be wrong, but I suspect that some of the increased difficulty training stealth is an incidental effect of wounds accumulating randomly in combat; wounds make hiding a lot tougher.
Agreed, wounds, armor type, and discipline not skillset placement or invisibility. I still think Invis for Barbarians would be cool, I mean why make the Predator tree if you can't do what the Predator does.
Danny Glover was in Predator 2 and also Lethal Weapon 4 who had Stephen Blackehart. Blackehart was in Super with Kevin Bacon. Kevin Bacon was Hollow Man, who could go invisible, so could The Predator. So, Barbarians should have an Invisibility.
Agreed, wounds, armor type, and discipline not skillset placement or invisibility. I still think Invis for Barbarians would be cool, I mean why make the Predator tree if you can't do what the Predator does.
Danny Glover was in Predator 2 and also Lethal Weapon 4 who had Stephen Blackehart. Blackehart was in Super with Kevin Bacon. Kevin Bacon was Hollow Man, who could go invisible, so could The Predator. So, Barbarians should have an Invisibility.
>>Danny Glover was in Predator 2 and also Lethal Weapon 4 who had Stephen Blackehart. Blackehart was in Super with Kevin Bacon. Kevin Bacon was Hollow Man, who could go invisible, so could The Predator. So, Barbarians should have an Invisibility.
With such sound reasoning, how can we deny the guild invisibility? Also, Patrick Swayze, who was rather barbaric, was a ghost in the movie Ghost, thus allowing him to go undetected. Further evidence that things must change.
"If swords ever cross, the Barbarian shall be the one left standing." - Guild Leader Agonar
With such sound reasoning, how can we deny the guild invisibility? Also, Patrick Swayze, who was rather barbaric, was a ghost in the movie Ghost, thus allowing him to go undetected. Further evidence that things must change.
"If swords ever cross, the Barbarian shall be the one left standing." - Guild Leader Agonar
Haha, exceptional logic there!
I'm not sure the case can be made for Barbarian invisibility. Your Supernatural powers are internal in nature, and a result of extremely training and mental discipline (or lack thereof).
The problem with a Discipline buff is you already have buffs for too many other stats -
Strength, Agility, Reflex, Charisma, Stamina - That is 5 stats you can buff, tied with the other highest buffing Guilds in the game. What would you trade to get discipline in there?
Discipline doesn't affect your abilities in the current design, and you lack access to TM, so it didn't seem as useful to add.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
I'm not sure the case can be made for Barbarian invisibility. Your Supernatural powers are internal in nature, and a result of extremely training and mental discipline (or lack thereof).
The problem with a Discipline buff is you already have buffs for too many other stats -
Strength, Agility, Reflex, Charisma, Stamina - That is 5 stats you can buff, tied with the other highest buffing Guilds in the game. What would you trade to get discipline in there?
Discipline doesn't affect your abilities in the current design, and you lack access to TM, so it didn't seem as useful to add.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
>>I'm not sure the case can be made for Barbarian invisibility. Your Supernatural powers are internal in nature, and a result of extremely training and mental discipline (or lack thereof).
Crap. Are thieves losing inviso too then?
"If swords ever cross, the Barbarian shall be the one left standing." - Guild Leader Agonar
Crap. Are thieves losing inviso too then?
"If swords ever cross, the Barbarian shall be the one left standing." - Guild Leader Agonar
>The problem with a Discipline buff is you already have buffs for too many other stats -
>Strength, Agility, Reflex, Charisma, Stamina - That is 5 stats you can buff, tied with the other highest buffing Guilds in the game. What would you trade to get discipline in there?
Eh, I could be wrong, but, aren't Agility, Charisma, and Stamina buffs all done by berserks? We can't possibly be expected to really keep three berserks going to bring ourselves to equal footing with any other guild. Honestly, I don't use any of those just because they are berserks and I don't want to run out of IF constantly (which I know, expertise isn't out yet, but this is where we've been at and what we've been dealing with). If I had a disc buff I could use, as a form, I'd definitely use it instead of one of my other forms, since stealth is what's holding me back from moving up the ladder now. Think I've said it before, if not then I thought it at least (so that counts yeah?) but barbarian abilities are too spread out considering the cost (IF) and the fact that we're hard limited in how many we can put up anyways.
>Strength, Agility, Reflex, Charisma, Stamina - That is 5 stats you can buff, tied with the other highest buffing Guilds in the game. What would you trade to get discipline in there?
Eh, I could be wrong, but, aren't Agility, Charisma, and Stamina buffs all done by berserks? We can't possibly be expected to really keep three berserks going to bring ourselves to equal footing with any other guild. Honestly, I don't use any of those just because they are berserks and I don't want to run out of IF constantly (which I know, expertise isn't out yet, but this is where we've been at and what we've been dealing with). If I had a disc buff I could use, as a form, I'd definitely use it instead of one of my other forms, since stealth is what's holding me back from moving up the ladder now. Think I've said it before, if not then I thought it at least (so that counts yeah?) but barbarian abilities are too spread out considering the cost (IF) and the fact that we're hard limited in how many we can put up anyways.
I posted about this a while back, the fact our buffs are all tied to huge IF draining abilities is a problem, yes we have a nice amount of stat buffs, but unlike other guilds we can't possibly use them together, maybe 2 at the same time at best. I think I had argued before that panther should also gain the agility buff, even if it would overlap our other ability that buffs agility it means I could choose one or the other and that's ok for me, at least that way I'm not forced to use a berserk I may not wish to use to gain that buff and I have some options.
>>Crap. Are thieves losing inviso too then?
The policy for invisibility, which hasn't changed in quite some time, is that it's a survival primary perk + Moon Mages. (Moon Mages get to keep it since they have a long history with it and they're the most survival/stealth oriented of the magic primes.)
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
The policy for invisibility, which hasn't changed in quite some time, is that it's a survival primary perk + Moon Mages. (Moon Mages get to keep it since they have a long history with it and they're the most survival/stealth oriented of the magic primes.)
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
>>The policy for invisibility, which hasn't changed in quite some time, is that it's a survival primary perk + Moon Mages. (Moon Mages get to keep it since they have a long history with it and they're the most survival/stealth oriented of the magic primes.)
A lot has changed. Hell, combat paradigms have completely shifted for all guilds. Perhaps it would be worth revisiting, considering barbarians now have a path focused on being survival/stealth oriented. Also, the survival primaries, moon mages and barbarians all share stealth in their sphere of influence. I am really having a difficult time grasping why barbarians would be excluded from invisibility. We've already settled it's not some magical thing, since thieves have no magic whatsoever. And it's not a survival primary thing, since moon mages have it. Two precedents have been set to not be so rigid and allow some flexibility.
"If swords ever cross, the Barbarian shall be the one left standing." - Guild Leader Agonar
A lot has changed. Hell, combat paradigms have completely shifted for all guilds. Perhaps it would be worth revisiting, considering barbarians now have a path focused on being survival/stealth oriented. Also, the survival primaries, moon mages and barbarians all share stealth in their sphere of influence. I am really having a difficult time grasping why barbarians would be excluded from invisibility. We've already settled it's not some magical thing, since thieves have no magic whatsoever. And it's not a survival primary thing, since moon mages have it. Two precedents have been set to not be so rigid and allow some flexibility.
"If swords ever cross, the Barbarian shall be the one left standing." - Guild Leader Agonar
>>I am really having a difficult time grasping why barbarians would be excluded from invisibility.
The same reason why Clerics, Traders, Empaths, Bards, Paladins, and War Mages are: it's just not their thing. It's the same reason why Moon Mages don't have a cyclic AoE, why Thieves won't have warding abilities, etc.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
The same reason why Clerics, Traders, Empaths, Bards, Paladins, and War Mages are: it's just not their thing. It's the same reason why Moon Mages don't have a cyclic AoE, why Thieves won't have warding abilities, etc.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
>>it's just not their thing.
Ask yourself how not having magical aptitude can be a justification for not getting it when Thieves also have zero magical aptitude. You could also ask yourself why they can still buff every weapon at once in 3.1, even though they are weapon secondary and that by no means makes them 'weapon masters'. I'm all for expounding on the implications of erroneous and short-sided logic, but honestly - there's too much 'is and ain't' going on in this thread. Let's cut down on the lawyering, this doesn't need to become a contest of who can find the most contradictions in the 'established lore'. Besides that, lore isn't the end-all of "can-and-can't", as we've clearly seen in the 3.0 "re-imagining".
IMO, there's no real reason to keep inviso as an exclusive, since the terms of it's application and potency are negotiable. This applies generally to all guilds, and I say this generally for all guilds.
If you want to break it down, though - it's not like inviso has anything to do with stealth skill anyways, in the same regard as that having a lot of money does not make you an affluent businessman. But, if we're going to tie the two together anyways - survival seem to be the only skill-set lacking in the proposed 'general feat' department. Why not plug it there?
Food for thought.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
Ask yourself how not having magical aptitude can be a justification for not getting it when Thieves also have zero magical aptitude. You could also ask yourself why they can still buff every weapon at once in 3.1, even though they are weapon secondary and that by no means makes them 'weapon masters'. I'm all for expounding on the implications of erroneous and short-sided logic, but honestly - there's too much 'is and ain't' going on in this thread. Let's cut down on the lawyering, this doesn't need to become a contest of who can find the most contradictions in the 'established lore'. Besides that, lore isn't the end-all of "can-and-can't", as we've clearly seen in the 3.0 "re-imagining".
IMO, there's no real reason to keep inviso as an exclusive, since the terms of it's application and potency are negotiable. This applies generally to all guilds, and I say this generally for all guilds.
If you want to break it down, though - it's not like inviso has anything to do with stealth skill anyways, in the same regard as that having a lot of money does not make you an affluent businessman. But, if we're going to tie the two together anyways - survival seem to be the only skill-set lacking in the proposed 'general feat' department. Why not plug it there?
Food for thought.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
>>Ask yourself how not having magical aptitude can be a justification for not getting it when Thieves also have zero magical aptitude
Because it's not about magical aptitude, it's about being survival primary. The only exception to the rule is Moon Mages, who are viewed as the survival-centric magic primary guild.
Barbarians are not survival primary. There's nothing in the lore of the guild that implies that they are big on remaining hidden.
I mean, if we're trying to cut through the "rule lawyering", I'd rather people just outright say their intentions: invisibility is seen as an advantage in PvP, so people without invisibility want invisibility. It's a power grab.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
Because it's not about magical aptitude, it's about being survival primary. The only exception to the rule is Moon Mages, who are viewed as the survival-centric magic primary guild.
Barbarians are not survival primary. There's nothing in the lore of the guild that implies that they are big on remaining hidden.
I mean, if we're trying to cut through the "rule lawyering", I'd rather people just outright say their intentions: invisibility is seen as an advantage in PvP, so people without invisibility want invisibility. It's a power grab.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
>> Because it's not about magical aptitude, it's about being survival primary. The only exception to the rule is Moon Mages, who are viewed as the survival-centric magic primary guild.
Right, but I just brought up how Thieves can buff every weapon yet are not weapon primary. Something of a contradiction going on here.
>> Barbarians are not survival primary. There's nothing in the lore of the guild that implies that they are big on remaining hidden.
Predator path.
>> I mean, if we're trying to cut through the "rule lawyering", I'd rather people just outright say their intentions: invisibility is seen as an advantage in PvP, so people without invisibility want invisibility. It's a power grab.
Blinking inviso is a huge advantage in PvP. Basic inviso is not such a huge advantage. Difference. I'm not going to try to read into what everyone else here has said(what you appear to be doing), but to claim that it's a power grab when I've just stated that basic inviso should be feat-related and available to everyone(since survivals are almost totally missing from the general feat system) is another contradiction.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
Right, but I just brought up how Thieves can buff every weapon yet are not weapon primary. Something of a contradiction going on here.
>> Barbarians are not survival primary. There's nothing in the lore of the guild that implies that they are big on remaining hidden.
Predator path.
>> I mean, if we're trying to cut through the "rule lawyering", I'd rather people just outright say their intentions: invisibility is seen as an advantage in PvP, so people without invisibility want invisibility. It's a power grab.
Blinking inviso is a huge advantage in PvP. Basic inviso is not such a huge advantage. Difference. I'm not going to try to read into what everyone else here has said(what you appear to be doing), but to claim that it's a power grab when I've just stated that basic inviso should be feat-related and available to everyone(since survivals are almost totally missing from the general feat system) is another contradiction.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
>>Right, but I just brought up how Thieves can buff every weapon yet are not weapon primary. Something of a contradiction going on here.
That's not a contradiction at all. You're allowed to have a survival buffs. You're not allowed to have invisibility, which is a very specific type of stealth buff.
It's sorta like how you can shoot a bow, but you can't snipe. Or how Thieves can use weapons, but they can't whirlwind.
It's also worth acknowledging that Barbarians get a capped bonus to more weapon types than Thieves. And that doesn't take into account what can be unlocked through the expertise skill.
>>Blinking inviso is a huge advantage in PvP. Basic inviso is not such a huge advantage. Difference.
Other than blend, which has massive restrictions, does any guild-provided invisibility not refresh? As far as I know, RF refreshes, Steps of Vuan refreshes, Eyes of the Blind refreshes, and I thought Silence refreshes. I don't think there are any guild-invisibility options out there other than those.
>>If PvP is broken without invisibility, the solution is not to make all guilds have invisibility.
Exactly.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
That's not a contradiction at all. You're allowed to have a survival buffs. You're not allowed to have invisibility, which is a very specific type of stealth buff.
It's sorta like how you can shoot a bow, but you can't snipe. Or how Thieves can use weapons, but they can't whirlwind.
It's also worth acknowledging that Barbarians get a capped bonus to more weapon types than Thieves. And that doesn't take into account what can be unlocked through the expertise skill.
>>Blinking inviso is a huge advantage in PvP. Basic inviso is not such a huge advantage. Difference.
Other than blend, which has massive restrictions, does any guild-provided invisibility not refresh? As far as I know, RF refreshes, Steps of Vuan refreshes, Eyes of the Blind refreshes, and I thought Silence refreshes. I don't think there are any guild-invisibility options out there other than those.
>>If PvP is broken without invisibility, the solution is not to make all guilds have invisibility.
Exactly.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
Ummm....
>You could also ask yourself why they can still buff every weapon at once in 3.1, even though they are weapon secondary and that by no means makes them 'weapon masters'.
Really?
---
"I think anything that forces you to do something no sane adventurer would do just in order to train is ridiculous."
DR-SOCHARIS
---
Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Victory of Lanival the Redeemer.
>You could also ask yourself why they can still buff every weapon at once in 3.1, even though they are weapon secondary and that by no means makes them 'weapon masters'.
Really?
---
"I think anything that forces you to do something no sane adventurer would do just in order to train is ridiculous."
DR-SOCHARIS
---
Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Victory of Lanival the Redeemer.
>> That's not a contradiction at all. You're allowed to have a survival buffs. You're not allowed to have invisibility, which is a very specific type of stealth buff.
My 3 inviso cloaks say otherwise. 15+ years of game history say otherwise. You're arguing this like there's no way it would ever change when it has in fact changed several times, Sir argues-alot.
>> It's also worth acknowledging that Barbarians get a capped bonus to more weapon types than Thieves. And that doesn't take into account what can be unlocked through the expertise skill.
So give me a buff for all of my magic skills, then. Oh, except for Utility since I don't use it.
>> It's sorta like how you can shoot a bow, but you can't snipe. Or how Thieves can use weapons, but they can't whirlwind.
You're comparing grapes to grapefruit. Stop, please.
>> Other than blend, which has massive restrictions, does any guild-provided invisibility not refresh? As far as I know, RF refreshes, Steps of Vuan refreshes, Eyes of the Blind refreshes, and I thought Silence refreshes. I don't think there are any guild-invisibility options out there other than those.
How many times per minute do you blink? I can tell that you're talking from experience here when you bring up how all forms of refreshing inviso are identical in function. Otherwise, no idea what this is supposed to mean. Grass is green?
>>If PvP is broken without invisibility, the solution is not to make all guilds have invisibility.
>> Exactly.
It's ironic that the straw-man you 'nailed down' here was the straw-man you yourself conceived. I guess when you've 'rolled with the best' though, experience speaks for itself.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
My 3 inviso cloaks say otherwise. 15+ years of game history say otherwise. You're arguing this like there's no way it would ever change when it has in fact changed several times, Sir argues-alot.
>> It's also worth acknowledging that Barbarians get a capped bonus to more weapon types than Thieves. And that doesn't take into account what can be unlocked through the expertise skill.
So give me a buff for all of my magic skills, then. Oh, except for Utility since I don't use it.
>> It's sorta like how you can shoot a bow, but you can't snipe. Or how Thieves can use weapons, but they can't whirlwind.
You're comparing grapes to grapefruit. Stop, please.
>> Other than blend, which has massive restrictions, does any guild-provided invisibility not refresh? As far as I know, RF refreshes, Steps of Vuan refreshes, Eyes of the Blind refreshes, and I thought Silence refreshes. I don't think there are any guild-invisibility options out there other than those.
How many times per minute do you blink? I can tell that you're talking from experience here when you bring up how all forms of refreshing inviso are identical in function. Otherwise, no idea what this is supposed to mean. Grass is green?
>>If PvP is broken without invisibility, the solution is not to make all guilds have invisibility.
>> Exactly.
It's ironic that the straw-man you 'nailed down' here was the straw-man you yourself conceived. I guess when you've 'rolled with the best' though, experience speaks for itself.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
