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<<JUST LIKE YOU CAN DO.>>
I dont have additional magical resistance capable of basically shutting down mages my circle due to living a life ascetic of magical assistance. As a thief I simply dont know how to do it. Big difference between the two.
The only reason you guys want it, like CJ, is CvC and cheese methods to save your lives. Thats not a basis for an argument. The item is clearly magical. Your clearly in control of it. Its not one of those items that is needed for day to day life like healing, gweths, etc. Ergo it should mess with your barbarian stuff the same way other magical devices do.
Bringing up the same old tired argument about blessed weapons and gweths doesnt mean you should use every magical device in the game. Those 2-3 things are exceptions. If you dont want them, petition that the gods remove them. I wont stop you. However the Polo cloak is a magical device you shouldnt be so free to use.
Farewell, remorse: all good to me is lost; Evil, be thou my good.
~Paradise Lost (bk. IX, l. 171)
We have no current plans to change what items can be used by Barbarians.
In the future there may be consequences to using some items, but I personally do not see eliminating the use of items entirely, and forcing a "I never use magic devices" RP on all members of the guild.
As the Guildleaders tell you when you join, such things can interfere with your inner strength, and that may become more noticeable and tangible. To the extent I have a say in the matter, I am in favor of allowing the player to choose, but for there to be tradeoffs depending upon the choice made.
Gamemaster Iayn
Barbarian Guru
In the future there may be consequences to using some items, but I personally do not see eliminating the use of items entirely, and forcing a "I never use magic devices" RP on all members of the guild.
As the Guildleaders tell you when you join, such things can interfere with your inner strength, and that may become more noticeable and tangible. To the extent I have a say in the matter, I am in favor of allowing the player to choose, but for there to be tradeoffs depending upon the choice made.
Gamemaster Iayn
Barbarian Guru
I agree with you Iayn however I hope some serious thought is put into any negative effects you place on these items. CJs, runes, etc, all make sense to me however a polo cloak does not.
The skin is magical in nature but (despite what Constatine says) the bless argument stands up. You're placing a magical essence on a mundane item (sword, arrows, hammers, etc)
The exact same can be said for the polo cloak. There is a magical essence on the item however it requires no actual knowledge or even liking of the magic for it to be used.
As evident by my posts Im sure you can see im frantically scared about losing the ability to use a polo cloak. If down the line they "work" but no longer pop me into invisibility I'll become pretty depressed.
In the CvC scene when chasing folks like Viggu or that most recent snake guy, my polo cloak has been an invaluable tool. I'd hate to just become cannon fodder because an element of surprise is taken from me.
Although not evident from my rantings, much like Ssra I have faith and know you all will do what is in the best interest of the guild.
-Galren Moonskin, one concerned Barbarian
Messenger Boy: The Thessalonian you're fighting... he's the biggest man I've ever seen. I wouldn't want to fight him.
Achilles: Thats why no-one will remember your name.
The skin is magical in nature but (despite what Constatine says) the bless argument stands up. You're placing a magical essence on a mundane item (sword, arrows, hammers, etc)
The exact same can be said for the polo cloak. There is a magical essence on the item however it requires no actual knowledge or even liking of the magic for it to be used.
As evident by my posts Im sure you can see im frantically scared about losing the ability to use a polo cloak. If down the line they "work" but no longer pop me into invisibility I'll become pretty depressed.
In the CvC scene when chasing folks like Viggu or that most recent snake guy, my polo cloak has been an invaluable tool. I'd hate to just become cannon fodder because an element of surprise is taken from me.
Although not evident from my rantings, much like Ssra I have faith and know you all will do what is in the best interest of the guild.
-Galren Moonskin, one concerned Barbarian
Messenger Boy: The Thessalonian you're fighting... he's the biggest man I've ever seen. I wouldn't want to fight him.
Achilles: Thats why no-one will remember your name.
Its use of a magical item, a general lack of which is the basis for your BMR. Maybe utilizing a blessed weapon should have some negative effect as well, but the fact the polo cloak doesnt teach you MD doesnt mean it should be a 'get out of logic free' card. Your are a barbarian consciously and knowingly utilizing magic as a crutch. If all it matters to you is a purely CvC sense, then train your hiding and stalking.
Otherwise the use of those items should have some nasty impacts. Anyhow, the barb god said his peace. Anything more from either of us probably wont do anything productive.
Farewell, remorse: all good to me is lost; Evil, be thou my good.
~Paradise Lost (bk. IX, l. 171)
Otherwise the use of those items should have some nasty impacts. Anyhow, the barb god said his peace. Anything more from either of us probably wont do anything productive.
Farewell, remorse: all good to me is lost; Evil, be thou my good.
~Paradise Lost (bk. IX, l. 171)
>> i would like to put in a formal requst to have any and all magical devices unusable by barbarians, time for us to toughen up. wanna use magic and its devices change guilds
And this is my formal request for you to stop being such a putz. Not everyone wants to RP the same way you do. I - for one - like using my polo cloak and blessed weapons and gweths. You might think it is "anti-barbarian"... I see it as being smart.
-Galren Moonskin
Messenger Boy: The Thessalonian you're fighting... he's the biggest man I've ever seen. I wouldn't want to fight him.
Achilles: Thats why no-one will remember your name.
And this is my formal request for you to stop being such a putz. Not everyone wants to RP the same way you do. I - for one - like using my polo cloak and blessed weapons and gweths. You might think it is "anti-barbarian"... I see it as being smart.
-Galren Moonskin
Messenger Boy: The Thessalonian you're fighting... he's the biggest man I've ever seen. I wouldn't want to fight him.
Achilles: Thats why no-one will remember your name.
Long gone are the old days of not training ranged weapons, neglecting shield and trying to get to melee in a conflict. At least for me, this is a new breed of Barbarians, ones that are smart and not dumb. People seem to fear it. ;)
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
Thats fine. But not being dumb and being able to use a magical item for a battle field advantage considering the logic behind IF, BMR and other aspects of the barb guild doesnt exactly seem intuitive. If you want your nifty magic items, you can enjoy the excellent amount of magic resistance that other NMU guilds enjoy.
Farewell, remorse: all good to me is lost; Evil, be thou my good.
~Paradise Lost (bk. IX, l. 171)
Farewell, remorse: all good to me is lost; Evil, be thou my good.
~Paradise Lost (bk. IX, l. 171)
I hope everyone keeps in mind that someday Warrior Mages and other magical guilds will be enchanting weapons and/or armor. This includes things like flaming blades and armor that has properties inherant to it.
The original proposal was for a differentiation between "active" and "passive" magical enchantments. I supported this distinction. In essence you'd have your passive enchantments that do NOT affect the flow of mana in such a way that BMR interferes with it (ie, a flaming blade). On the other hand you'd have enchantments that would require a changing in the flow of mana to use or activate (and therfore be unusable by any but magic users) such as fireball throwing swords.
Perhaps someday a comprehensive review of magical devices could occur. I swear! Dragonrealms has the worst magical item system in existance. It is unbalanced, has no logic behind any of it, and lacks a goodly amount of fun to it. Too bad there is no 1 right answer, as playability and fun must be maintained. I'd hate to see barbarians unable to use any magical items. It would cut them off from many aspects of the game. Yet it doesn't make sense for them to use all types of magical items. Going forward I think the active/passive distinction makes sense and maintains the fun and balance of the game. I can't wait!
http://www.drplat.com - The DragonRealms Platinum Community Website. Be sure to vote DragonRealms as your #1 MUD!
The original proposal was for a differentiation between "active" and "passive" magical enchantments. I supported this distinction. In essence you'd have your passive enchantments that do NOT affect the flow of mana in such a way that BMR interferes with it (ie, a flaming blade). On the other hand you'd have enchantments that would require a changing in the flow of mana to use or activate (and therfore be unusable by any but magic users) such as fireball throwing swords.
Perhaps someday a comprehensive review of magical devices could occur. I swear! Dragonrealms has the worst magical item system in existance. It is unbalanced, has no logic behind any of it, and lacks a goodly amount of fun to it. Too bad there is no 1 right answer, as playability and fun must be maintained. I'd hate to see barbarians unable to use any magical items. It would cut them off from many aspects of the game. Yet it doesn't make sense for them to use all types of magical items. Going forward I think the active/passive distinction makes sense and maintains the fun and balance of the game. I can't wait!
http://www.drplat.com - The DragonRealms Platinum Community Website. Be sure to vote DragonRealms as your #1 MUD!
>>Thats fine. But not being dumb and being able to use a magical item for a battle field advantage considering the logic behind IF, BMR and other aspects of the barb guild doesnt exactly seem intuitive. If you want your nifty magic items, you can enjoy the excellent amount of magic resistance that other NMU guilds enjoy.
There is nothing magical in the actual use of a polo cloak. I turn the cloak, the scales shield me/make me hidden. I see nothing that requires either a knowledge of magic OR the use of mana.
You should re-read the current BMR information in regard to how it interacts with mana and spell matrices.
While a polo cloak has lines of magic flowing through it, it has no discernable mana type nor does it require any knowledge to use or active. You're simply turning a cloak over you. Not rocket science.
Also, to further pound this into your head. While Barbarians, stereotypically, disdain all things magic that does not mean we will be self-sacrificing or stupid in our persuits in battle. To this end I mean -- when Galren engages in battle he fights to win.
I will not stand by idly while a fendryad prepares a spell or a warcat stalks me in hiding. If I feel threatened in combat whether its critter hunting or CvC I won't wait around in the open. This is called being smart. I won't be stubborn and stupid and go "Hey! This cloak MIGHT** have a magical essense to it, I should stay in the open and die!"
** Notice I said MIGHT and not has. As a barbarian I have no way of percieving objects. All Galren knows is that when he pulls the cloak over him, he vanishes.
In conclusion - I'll summarize my previous statements.
While Barbarians hate magic and such - we are not mindless, self depricating brutes who stand in the open to get beat on.
Our resistance interacts with mana and spell matricies - NEITHER OF WHICH ARE INVOLVED IN A POLO CLOAK.
Yes, polo cloaks have magical properties, but there is no mana type, no spell being prepped, no knowledge of complex magical devices that need be known. ITS TURNING A CLOAK.
You focus your magical senses on an azure*-*scaled poloh*'*izh hide cloak.
You sense very strong, unidentifiable magic coursing through the cloak.
Feel free to respond to any of my statements above. Try to avoid using the same circular logic that "Barbarians hate magic, cloaks are magic, therefore barbarians shouldn't use cloaks."
-Galren Moonskin
Messenger Boy: The Thessalonian you're fighting... he's the biggest man I've ever seen. I wouldn't want to fight him.
Achilles: Thats why no-one will remember your name.
There is nothing magical in the actual use of a polo cloak. I turn the cloak, the scales shield me/make me hidden. I see nothing that requires either a knowledge of magic OR the use of mana.
You should re-read the current BMR information in regard to how it interacts with mana and spell matrices.
While a polo cloak has lines of magic flowing through it, it has no discernable mana type nor does it require any knowledge to use or active. You're simply turning a cloak over you. Not rocket science.
Also, to further pound this into your head. While Barbarians, stereotypically, disdain all things magic that does not mean we will be self-sacrificing or stupid in our persuits in battle. To this end I mean -- when Galren engages in battle he fights to win.
I will not stand by idly while a fendryad prepares a spell or a warcat stalks me in hiding. If I feel threatened in combat whether its critter hunting or CvC I won't wait around in the open. This is called being smart. I won't be stubborn and stupid and go "Hey! This cloak MIGHT** have a magical essense to it, I should stay in the open and die!"
** Notice I said MIGHT and not has. As a barbarian I have no way of percieving objects. All Galren knows is that when he pulls the cloak over him, he vanishes.
In conclusion - I'll summarize my previous statements.
While Barbarians hate magic and such - we are not mindless, self depricating brutes who stand in the open to get beat on.
Our resistance interacts with mana and spell matricies - NEITHER OF WHICH ARE INVOLVED IN A POLO CLOAK.
Yes, polo cloaks have magical properties, but there is no mana type, no spell being prepped, no knowledge of complex magical devices that need be known. ITS TURNING A CLOAK.
You focus your magical senses on an azure*-*scaled poloh*'*izh hide cloak.
You sense very strong, unidentifiable magic coursing through the cloak.
Feel free to respond to any of my statements above. Try to avoid using the same circular logic that "Barbarians hate magic, cloaks are magic, therefore barbarians shouldn't use cloaks."
-Galren Moonskin
Messenger Boy: The Thessalonian you're fighting... he's the biggest man I've ever seen. I wouldn't want to fight him.
Achilles: Thats why no-one will remember your name.
You're right! We shouldn't ditch magic items just because we're barbarians. I mean as long as we don't have to use the mana ourself, it's perfectly ok. In fact, we should hire mages to follow us around and cast spells, that way we can be even more effective without having to use the mana either.
You're also right about me being dumb. I mean sheesh, the idea of me picking a guild with anti-magic principles and then avoiding using magic items... well that's just stupid, since it's far more important to be effective.
Ya know what would be even more effective? Learning chain lightening of course! That's REALLY effective.
Isn't it great when we're all snarky?
Magic's Death Caraamon M.,
Gor'Tog Barbarian Extrordi...Well somewhat average
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
You're also right about me being dumb. I mean sheesh, the idea of me picking a guild with anti-magic principles and then avoiding using magic items... well that's just stupid, since it's far more important to be effective.
Ya know what would be even more effective? Learning chain lightening of course! That's REALLY effective.
Isn't it great when we're all snarky?
Magic's Death Caraamon M.,
Gor'Tog Barbarian Extrordi...Well somewhat average
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
>> Isn't it great when we're all snarky?
It's even better when we're snarky and fail to make a point. You've succeeded.
This is why your character will never amount to anything in game. You hold yourself back based on stupid "ITS MAJIK I CANNOT USE IT!!!11" rhetoric.
Yeah Galren hates mana, yeah Galren hates magic but to Galren its just a cloak.
>>You're also right about me being dumb. I mean sheesh, the idea of me picking a guild with anti-magic principles and then avoiding using magic items... well that's just stupid, since it's far more important to be effective.
BINGO.
-Galren Moonskin
Messenger Boy: The Thessalonian you're fighting... he's the biggest man I've ever seen. I wouldn't want to fight him.
Achilles: Thats why no-one will remember your name.
It's even better when we're snarky and fail to make a point. You've succeeded.
This is why your character will never amount to anything in game. You hold yourself back based on stupid "ITS MAJIK I CANNOT USE IT!!!11" rhetoric.
Yeah Galren hates mana, yeah Galren hates magic but to Galren its just a cloak.
>>You're also right about me being dumb. I mean sheesh, the idea of me picking a guild with anti-magic principles and then avoiding using magic items... well that's just stupid, since it's far more important to be effective.
BINGO.
-Galren Moonskin
Messenger Boy: The Thessalonian you're fighting... he's the biggest man I've ever seen. I wouldn't want to fight him.
Achilles: Thats why no-one will remember your name.
>>Our resistance interacts with mana and spell matricies - NEITHER OF WHICH ARE INVOLVED IN A POLO CLOAK.
BINGO.
>>If you want your nifty magic items, you can enjoy the excellent amount of magic resistance that other NMU guilds enjoy.
Sounds to me like someone's jealous. There's still stuff that you NMU guilds get to enjoy yet we Barbarians won't be able to without suffering a HUGE penalty. CJs are a BIG one. Being a mid level Barb, I can pretty much go into why my BMR isn't that great, and how the benefit of using a cj right now would actually help me out a lot more. Not that I'd want to use one.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
BINGO.
>>If you want your nifty magic items, you can enjoy the excellent amount of magic resistance that other NMU guilds enjoy.
Sounds to me like someone's jealous. There's still stuff that you NMU guilds get to enjoy yet we Barbarians won't be able to without suffering a HUGE penalty. CJs are a BIG one. Being a mid level Barb, I can pretty much go into why my BMR isn't that great, and how the benefit of using a cj right now would actually help me out a lot more. Not that I'd want to use one.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
>>You hold yourself back based on stupid "ITS MAJIK I CANNOT USE IT!!!11" rhetoric.
Cannot? I do not, for very specific reasons that have to do with RP. It seems you (or your character) believes that the ends justify the means. I don't. What is effective is not necessarily compatable with our character's moral views.
The game is a lot like various systems of law: just because it's technically legal, doesn't mean it isn't against the spirit.
>>... yeah Galren hates magic but to Galren its just a cloak.
Like winged boots are just boots, snake charms are just moving metal, spider cloaks are just a bunch of spiders, gweth shells are just former homes for sea creatures, and so on and so forth?
Fine, do you take it to its logical conclusion? I don't go to clerics, for anything and if there was any possible way to keep a functional character, I wouldn't use empaths either. I don't do moongates or gweths either. What about you?
>>This is why your character will never amount to anything in game.
As for amounting to anything, that's only your opinion. I've gotten where I am, not only handicapping myself compared to Galren, but also not skirting the spirit of our guild. I'm satisfied.
Magic's Death Caraamon M.,
Gor'Tog Barbarian Extrordi...Well somewhat average
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Cannot? I do not, for very specific reasons that have to do with RP. It seems you (or your character) believes that the ends justify the means. I don't. What is effective is not necessarily compatable with our character's moral views.
The game is a lot like various systems of law: just because it's technically legal, doesn't mean it isn't against the spirit.
>>... yeah Galren hates magic but to Galren its just a cloak.
Like winged boots are just boots, snake charms are just moving metal, spider cloaks are just a bunch of spiders, gweth shells are just former homes for sea creatures, and so on and so forth?
Fine, do you take it to its logical conclusion? I don't go to clerics, for anything and if there was any possible way to keep a functional character, I wouldn't use empaths either. I don't do moongates or gweths either. What about you?
>>This is why your character will never amount to anything in game.
As for amounting to anything, that's only your opinion. I've gotten where I am, not only handicapping myself compared to Galren, but also not skirting the spirit of our guild. I'm satisfied.
Magic's Death Caraamon M.,
Gor'Tog Barbarian Extrordi...Well somewhat average
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Invisibility is being placed on you by the cloak, and only when you interact with it in an active manner. The effect should have be effected by your BMR. The fact it isnt is probably a failure of design and mechanics than intent leading to one of the more ludicrously overpowered items in the game.
That aside, the item is clearly magical. The barbarian consciously enables it. The fact it does not use your own mana does not mean a matrix isnt being drawn; as evident by the cloaks cooldown the mana is likely within the cloak being absorbed passively and then expelled upon activation.
The interaction with the cloak is really no different than that of waving a wand. As a non magic user, a thief cant manipulate energy flows. They cant see them, they cant control mana, etc. We can however use 'use activated' magical devices like wands because the explanation is that we are simply utilizing the physical mechanical activation and the item does the rest of the job itself. Well....your turning a magical cloak and it is doing the rest of the job itself. It does not seem to differ any in logic.
If you want to make an exception for 'passive magical' items, so be it, but the polo cloak is very much an active use item.
Farewell, remorse: all good to me is lost; Evil, be thou my good.
~Paradise Lost (bk. IX, l. 171)
That aside, the item is clearly magical. The barbarian consciously enables it. The fact it does not use your own mana does not mean a matrix isnt being drawn; as evident by the cloaks cooldown the mana is likely within the cloak being absorbed passively and then expelled upon activation.
The interaction with the cloak is really no different than that of waving a wand. As a non magic user, a thief cant manipulate energy flows. They cant see them, they cant control mana, etc. We can however use 'use activated' magical devices like wands because the explanation is that we are simply utilizing the physical mechanical activation and the item does the rest of the job itself. Well....your turning a magical cloak and it is doing the rest of the job itself. It does not seem to differ any in logic.
If you want to make an exception for 'passive magical' items, so be it, but the polo cloak is very much an active use item.
Farewell, remorse: all good to me is lost; Evil, be thou my good.
~Paradise Lost (bk. IX, l. 171)
>>That aside, the item is clearly magical. The barbarian consciously enables it. The fact it does not use your own mana does not mean a matrix isnt being drawn; as evident by the cloaks cooldown the mana is likely within the cloak being absorbed passively and then expelled upon activation.
Impossible. Barbarians have no mana nor any way of interacting with it in terms of positive usage. A barbarian doesn't consciously enable the magical properties to work -- at least not like that of a rune or a CJ. We turn the cloak. There is no conscious enabling when swinging a sword or putting on your armor.
So where is this mana be absorbed from? Why is it I can turn it in the Barbarians guild where there is absolutely no mana?
>> The interaction with the cloak is really no different than that of waving a wand.
It is very different and the fact that you won't admit to it just proves to me you're not reading a single thing I've posted. You're set in your opinion and unable to give me any kind of in game proof of your beliefs. I draw my opinions on what I've seen and interacted with and the actual makeup of the cloak.
>> We can however use 'use activated' magical devices like wands because the explanation is that we are simply utilizing the physical mechanical activation and the item does the rest of the job itself. Well....your turning a magical cloak and it is doing the rest of the job itself.
Bingo again. There is nothing magical in that process of just waving the wand around. You're not putting mana into the wand. You're not putting a matrix around a target. You're not doing anything other than waving it.
I don't see the problem with any NMU using a wand or a polo cloak or a gweth. Is it insanely out of typical characteristics for a Barbarian? Sure. Any kinda Barbarian waving around a wand would just look silly.
If there was a wand that let me incinerate anyone I waved it at - no skill checks, no mana, no prepping of a spell required, you'd bet your cute little butt I'd use it in a fight or to hunt.
-Galren Moonskin
Messenger Boy: The Thessalonian you're fighting... he's the biggest man I've ever seen. I wouldn't want to fight him.
Achilles: Thats why no-one will remember your name.
Impossible. Barbarians have no mana nor any way of interacting with it in terms of positive usage. A barbarian doesn't consciously enable the magical properties to work -- at least not like that of a rune or a CJ. We turn the cloak. There is no conscious enabling when swinging a sword or putting on your armor.
So where is this mana be absorbed from? Why is it I can turn it in the Barbarians guild where there is absolutely no mana?
>> The interaction with the cloak is really no different than that of waving a wand.
It is very different and the fact that you won't admit to it just proves to me you're not reading a single thing I've posted. You're set in your opinion and unable to give me any kind of in game proof of your beliefs. I draw my opinions on what I've seen and interacted with and the actual makeup of the cloak.
>> We can however use 'use activated' magical devices like wands because the explanation is that we are simply utilizing the physical mechanical activation and the item does the rest of the job itself. Well....your turning a magical cloak and it is doing the rest of the job itself.
Bingo again. There is nothing magical in that process of just waving the wand around. You're not putting mana into the wand. You're not putting a matrix around a target. You're not doing anything other than waving it.
I don't see the problem with any NMU using a wand or a polo cloak or a gweth. Is it insanely out of typical characteristics for a Barbarian? Sure. Any kinda Barbarian waving around a wand would just look silly.
If there was a wand that let me incinerate anyone I waved it at - no skill checks, no mana, no prepping of a spell required, you'd bet your cute little butt I'd use it in a fight or to hunt.
-Galren Moonskin
Messenger Boy: The Thessalonian you're fighting... he's the biggest man I've ever seen. I wouldn't want to fight him.
Achilles: Thats why no-one will remember your name.
Fine, then lets be realistic.
There are two possibilities with the cloak:
1) Turning the cloak causes a matrix to form around you and the magic makes you invisible. If so, then our BMR should cause issues with it, just like any area effect that involves us.
2) The cloak turns invisible, and doesn't affect the person at all. At that point, every part of your body would have to be covered by the cloak, which would make any number of things, such as climbing and walking, difficult. Plus I can't imagine how you'd be able to see anything since it's made from leather/scales and therefore isn't light enough to peer through. At that point you should be stumbling around and walking into things.
So.... which is it?
Magic's Death Caraamon M.,
Gor'Tog Barbarian Extrordi...Well somewhat average
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
There are two possibilities with the cloak:
1) Turning the cloak causes a matrix to form around you and the magic makes you invisible. If so, then our BMR should cause issues with it, just like any area effect that involves us.
2) The cloak turns invisible, and doesn't affect the person at all. At that point, every part of your body would have to be covered by the cloak, which would make any number of things, such as climbing and walking, difficult. Plus I can't imagine how you'd be able to see anything since it's made from leather/scales and therefore isn't light enough to peer through. At that point you should be stumbling around and walking into things.
So.... which is it?
Magic's Death Caraamon M.,
Gor'Tog Barbarian Extrordi...Well somewhat average
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
>>1) Turning the cloak causes a matrix to form around you and the magic makes you invisible. If so, then our BMR should cause issues with it, just like any area effect that involves us.
I don't have a problem with this. I just don't see where the thought that "All Barbarians should not have anything to do with any magical item without their BMR being the equal of a thief's" come from. If my BMR is made exactly like that, then I don't want to be completely locked out of an entire skillset, and I want the benefit of being able to use cjs. You see, there's a middleground here.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
I don't have a problem with this. I just don't see where the thought that "All Barbarians should not have anything to do with any magical item without their BMR being the equal of a thief's" come from. If my BMR is made exactly like that, then I don't want to be completely locked out of an entire skillset, and I want the benefit of being able to use cjs. You see, there's a middleground here.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
>>Impossible. Barbarians have no mana nor any way of interacting with it in terms of positive usage.
As I stated, its using mana. Its using the cloaks mana. Its gathering mana between its uses, or do you have a different explanation for why it has a cooldown?
>>A barbarian doesn't consciously enable the magical properties to work
Neither does a thief when utilizing a wand or a magical device fan. We dont understand magic. We can use those devices cause all that is required to utilize them is to wave it right, or shake it right. Thieves cant control mana, perceive it, etc. Same as a barbarian. The definiation of a 'use activated magical device' is perfect for your polo cloak. Magical? yes. Do you need to interact with it in a specific way to activate it? yes.....ok check and check. Why isnt it considered an MD?
>>It is very different and the fact that you won't admit to it just proves to me you're not reading a single thing I've posted. You're set in your opinion and unable to give me any kind of in game proof of your beliefs.
The only argument I've seen so far is since barbarians are non magic users and they can use the cloak, ergo its not magic. A rune is not a use activated device, as you seemed to imply. A rune has lines that you focus on, and rubbing it prepared a spell for the caster that they then take over the casting of. A use activated device however contains all aspects of gathering the energy, formulating and casting the spell within it. Again; no different from the polo cloak.
>>I don't see the problem with any NMU using a wand or a polo cloak or a gweth.
Nor do I. But if your guild has issues using a wand, then you should have issues using a cloak. A gweth you can debate is 'passive', and blessing a weapon interacts with the metal of the blade. You have no real control over it and its not directly effecting the character as an entity. The polo cloak however is making you invisible. Thats a magical effect, the cloak itself is magical, and your the one enacting the ability. Again, similar to a thief or a trader waving a wand around, minus the skill check/teaching and thus the barbarian compromise.
>>If there was a wand that let me incinerate anyone I waved it at - no skill checks, no mana, no prepping of a spell required, you'd bet your cute little butt I'd use it in a fight or to hunt.
And youd bet I'd complain about it, not just for barbs but for anyone. However point in case, there are wands that do all of the above minus the "check" (there is an MD check). Doesnt require you know 2 cents about actual magic.
Farewell, remorse: all good to me is lost; Evil, be thou my good.
~Paradise Lost (bk. IX, l. 171)
As I stated, its using mana. Its using the cloaks mana. Its gathering mana between its uses, or do you have a different explanation for why it has a cooldown?
>>A barbarian doesn't consciously enable the magical properties to work
Neither does a thief when utilizing a wand or a magical device fan. We dont understand magic. We can use those devices cause all that is required to utilize them is to wave it right, or shake it right. Thieves cant control mana, perceive it, etc. Same as a barbarian. The definiation of a 'use activated magical device' is perfect for your polo cloak. Magical? yes. Do you need to interact with it in a specific way to activate it? yes.....ok check and check. Why isnt it considered an MD?
>>It is very different and the fact that you won't admit to it just proves to me you're not reading a single thing I've posted. You're set in your opinion and unable to give me any kind of in game proof of your beliefs.
The only argument I've seen so far is since barbarians are non magic users and they can use the cloak, ergo its not magic. A rune is not a use activated device, as you seemed to imply. A rune has lines that you focus on, and rubbing it prepared a spell for the caster that they then take over the casting of. A use activated device however contains all aspects of gathering the energy, formulating and casting the spell within it. Again; no different from the polo cloak.
>>I don't see the problem with any NMU using a wand or a polo cloak or a gweth.
Nor do I. But if your guild has issues using a wand, then you should have issues using a cloak. A gweth you can debate is 'passive', and blessing a weapon interacts with the metal of the blade. You have no real control over it and its not directly effecting the character as an entity. The polo cloak however is making you invisible. Thats a magical effect, the cloak itself is magical, and your the one enacting the ability. Again, similar to a thief or a trader waving a wand around, minus the skill check/teaching and thus the barbarian compromise.
>>If there was a wand that let me incinerate anyone I waved it at - no skill checks, no mana, no prepping of a spell required, you'd bet your cute little butt I'd use it in a fight or to hunt.
And youd bet I'd complain about it, not just for barbs but for anyone. However point in case, there are wands that do all of the above minus the "check" (there is an MD check). Doesnt require you know 2 cents about actual magic.
Farewell, remorse: all good to me is lost; Evil, be thou my good.
~Paradise Lost (bk. IX, l. 171)
>>I don't have a problem with this. I just don't see where the thought that "All Barbarians should not have anything to do with any magical item without their BMR being the equal of a thief's" come from. If my BMR is made exactly like that, then I don't want to be completely locked out of an entire skillset, and I want the benefit of being able to use cjs. You see, there's a middleground here.
No I think I'm with this mentality. It should be treated like a magical device and maybe using it makes you take a minor IF hit, and goes against your resist. I dont think it should be impossible, make your head explode, or otherwise be heavy handed. That would be the opposite extreme.
Farewell, remorse: all good to me is lost; Evil, be thou my good.
~Paradise Lost (bk. IX, l. 171)
No I think I'm with this mentality. It should be treated like a magical device and maybe using it makes you take a minor IF hit, and goes against your resist. I dont think it should be impossible, make your head explode, or otherwise be heavy handed. That would be the opposite extreme.
Farewell, remorse: all good to me is lost; Evil, be thou my good.
~Paradise Lost (bk. IX, l. 171)
Constantine have you ever hunted a polo? Ever seen one? Know what they do?
To me this seems like the skin of the polo makes you invisible when you drape it over yourself...*because it's a natural ability inherent to the skin*. Polos are not mages. I bet the fact that the cloak has a magic detectable in it at all is more a function of mechanics during it's design then MD design. As has been repeatedly stated, it does not require MD to use, or mana to work, that to me indicates that it is an inherent quality of the skin. Using the skin of a slaughtered creature to your own advantage seems very barb like to me. Just my take on it though.
To me this seems like the skin of the polo makes you invisible when you drape it over yourself...*because it's a natural ability inherent to the skin*. Polos are not mages. I bet the fact that the cloak has a magic detectable in it at all is more a function of mechanics during it's design then MD design. As has been repeatedly stated, it does not require MD to use, or mana to work, that to me indicates that it is an inherent quality of the skin. Using the skin of a slaughtered creature to your own advantage seems very barb like to me. Just my take on it though.
Well I suppose I disagree. Its naturally magical from what it seems(at least to me). Does 'natural' invisibility exist elsewhere in the game beyond silence? Why would the item have downtime of some sort if it was purely magical. Why would it only turn you invisible when you turn it?
The stretch of imagination to define it as a magical item is far shorter than it would be to define it as a natural item.
The alternative I suppose, if you wish to define it as 'natural' is having items capable of a khri like effect, in which case I would ask when a creature is going to be released with a natural 'dragon dance' like effect for other guilds to get cloaks of. Between the two, it just seems option 1 ruffles fewer logic feathers, even if it would upset some individual barbarians.
Farewell, remorse: all good to me is lost; Evil, be thou my good.
~Paradise Lost (bk. IX, l. 171)
The stretch of imagination to define it as a magical item is far shorter than it would be to define it as a natural item.
The alternative I suppose, if you wish to define it as 'natural' is having items capable of a khri like effect, in which case I would ask when a creature is going to be released with a natural 'dragon dance' like effect for other guilds to get cloaks of. Between the two, it just seems option 1 ruffles fewer logic feathers, even if it would upset some individual barbarians.
Farewell, remorse: all good to me is lost; Evil, be thou my good.
~Paradise Lost (bk. IX, l. 171)
>>No I think I'm with this mentality. It should be treated like a magical device and maybe using it makes you take a minor IF hit, and goes against your resist. I dont think it should be impossible, make your head explode, or otherwise be heavy handed. That would be the opposite extreme.
Check this out:
>turn cloak
You turn your poloh'izh hide cloak.
You fade from vision.
>berserk nightm
The pervasive stench of magical corruption splinters your attempt to berserk, your inner fire shaken by its deep-rooted presence.
>roar
The metaphysical conundrum your current state of existence presents makes roaring impossible. It's just not natural!
>dance bear
Your current state of existence makes dancing impossible. It's just not natural!
Being unable to use any of our abilities associated with inner fire (I know roars aren't) tells me that it was indeed intented for Barbarians to have the choice of whether to use a polo cloak or not. We're unable to activate them while using the cloak, so someone, somewhere had to have decided on this. The only thing I probably wouldn't mind happening is giving an IF hit upon activating the cloak, whether we're berserking or not.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
Check this out:
>turn cloak
You turn your poloh'izh hide cloak.
You fade from vision.
>berserk nightm
The pervasive stench of magical corruption splinters your attempt to berserk, your inner fire shaken by its deep-rooted presence.
>roar
The metaphysical conundrum your current state of existence presents makes roaring impossible. It's just not natural!
>dance bear
Your current state of existence makes dancing impossible. It's just not natural!
Being unable to use any of our abilities associated with inner fire (I know roars aren't) tells me that it was indeed intented for Barbarians to have the choice of whether to use a polo cloak or not. We're unable to activate them while using the cloak, so someone, somewhere had to have decided on this. The only thing I probably wouldn't mind happening is giving an IF hit upon activating the cloak, whether we're berserking or not.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
Thanks for that Vinjince. My knowledge in terms of zerking and other abilities under the effect is lacking, as I assumed they were unhinered...now
>berserk nightm
The pervasive stench of magical corruption splinters your attempt to berserk, your inner fire shaken by its deep-rooted presence.
That clearly seems to imply its a magical effect. I suppose if this is already the case, the IF hit might be to much. I think applying MR to the polo cloak though is appropriate. NMU's are supposed to resist all magical effects, beneficial or otherwise. If its magical (which it clearly seems to be) but is side stepping that logic, then thats wrong. However an IF hit on top of that and the interaction you posted might be much. Does that sound wrong?
Farewell, remorse: all good to me is lost; Evil, be thou my good.
~Paradise Lost (bk. IX, l. 171)
>berserk nightm
The pervasive stench of magical corruption splinters your attempt to berserk, your inner fire shaken by its deep-rooted presence.
That clearly seems to imply its a magical effect. I suppose if this is already the case, the IF hit might be to much. I think applying MR to the polo cloak though is appropriate. NMU's are supposed to resist all magical effects, beneficial or otherwise. If its magical (which it clearly seems to be) but is side stepping that logic, then thats wrong. However an IF hit on top of that and the interaction you posted might be much. Does that sound wrong?
Farewell, remorse: all good to me is lost; Evil, be thou my good.
~Paradise Lost (bk. IX, l. 171)
I understand where you're coming from but with latest changes, polo cloak is certainly not the same boost as silence anymore.
<<Does 'natural' invisibility exist elsewhere in the game beyond silence?>>
Yes, polos use it.
<<Why would the item have downtime of some sort if it was purely magical.>>
It doesn't, it's not like an inviso ring.
<<Why would it only turn you invisible when you turn it?>>
No answer really there, except for maybe game balance. I imagine releasing an item that was permanent invisibility would be a lot like the dragon dance item you mentioned. My main point though was just that I really think the cloak itself isn't meant to be a MD in the same sense as those that barbs traditionally avoid.
<<Does 'natural' invisibility exist elsewhere in the game beyond silence?>>
Yes, polos use it.
<<Why would the item have downtime of some sort if it was purely magical.>>
It doesn't, it's not like an inviso ring.
<<Why would it only turn you invisible when you turn it?>>
No answer really there, except for maybe game balance. I imagine releasing an item that was permanent invisibility would be a lot like the dragon dance item you mentioned. My main point though was just that I really think the cloak itself isn't meant to be a MD in the same sense as those that barbs traditionally avoid.
Questions: can you use it while dancing or berserking? Does the no dance/roar/berserk last for a while after you come out of hiding?
Lacking other data, I think there should be a chance of failure of the cloak, simply as a result of BMR.
I think that would go a long way toward lessening the inequality that people believe exists in BMR/magic item use.
Magic's Death Caraamon M.,
Gor'Tog Barbarian Extrordi...Well somewhat average
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Lacking other data, I think there should be a chance of failure of the cloak, simply as a result of BMR.
I think that would go a long way toward lessening the inequality that people believe exists in BMR/magic item use.
Magic's Death Caraamon M.,
Gor'Tog Barbarian Extrordi...Well somewhat average
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
>>My main point though was just that I really think the cloak itself isn't meant to be a MD in the same sense as those that barbs traditionally avoid.
I understand. It just seems between the perceive messaging, the 'supernatural' effect of the item and creature, and the berserk/roar messaging while under the effects of the polo cloak that it seems like a MD. Any GM clarification on what the polo cloak actually is? Otherwise we might be going at this for a while:)
Farewell, remorse: all good to me is lost; Evil, be thou my good.
~Paradise Lost (bk. IX, l. 171)
I understand. It just seems between the perceive messaging, the 'supernatural' effect of the item and creature, and the berserk/roar messaging while under the effects of the polo cloak that it seems like a MD. Any GM clarification on what the polo cloak actually is? Otherwise we might be going at this for a while:)
Farewell, remorse: all good to me is lost; Evil, be thou my good.
~Paradise Lost (bk. IX, l. 171)
>>That clearly seems to imply its a magical effect. I suppose if this is already the case, the IF hit might be to much. I think applying MR to the polo cloak though is appropriate. NMU's are supposed to resist all magical effects, beneficial or otherwise. If its magical (which it clearly seems to be) but is side stepping that logic, then thats wrong. However an IF hit on top of that and the interaction you posted might be much. Does that sound wrong?
Although it could possibly be perceived as magic only because of mechanics, it appears the GMs view it as magical because of the messaging, though I'm not too sure on that. Some input would be nice ;). If it is magical... being a Barbarian, I couldn't argue against an IF hit. (don't get me wrong, leave it as is and I won't argue FOR a hit)
>>Questions: can you use it while dancing or berserking? Does the no dance/roar/berserk last for a while after you come out of hiding?
Yup, and yup. I can berserk or dance beforehand and they'll last just as long, just can't activate them while using the cloak.
>>Lacking other data, I think there should be a chance of failure of the cloak, simply as a result of BMR.
Well, that would depend on the strength of the magic in the cloak, assuming it's meant to be magical. Another thought that came to mind is that perhaps the duration of the invisibility could be shortened since a Barbarian would somewhat effect it with BMR.
In the end, I would still rather have these things affect the Barbarian when activating the cloak rather than not being able to use one at all.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
Although it could possibly be perceived as magic only because of mechanics, it appears the GMs view it as magical because of the messaging, though I'm not too sure on that. Some input would be nice ;). If it is magical... being a Barbarian, I couldn't argue against an IF hit. (don't get me wrong, leave it as is and I won't argue FOR a hit)
>>Questions: can you use it while dancing or berserking? Does the no dance/roar/berserk last for a while after you come out of hiding?
Yup, and yup. I can berserk or dance beforehand and they'll last just as long, just can't activate them while using the cloak.
>>Lacking other data, I think there should be a chance of failure of the cloak, simply as a result of BMR.
Well, that would depend on the strength of the magic in the cloak, assuming it's meant to be magical. Another thought that came to mind is that perhaps the duration of the invisibility could be shortened since a Barbarian would somewhat effect it with BMR.
In the end, I would still rather have these things affect the Barbarian when activating the cloak rather than not being able to use one at all.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
I had a nice long talk with RAIST in game about this topic some more and it seems like my point was lost in all of this.
If the cloak is magical in the same sense as a rune or a CJ or such then yes, I'd be in favor of seeing a small inner fire hit.
However, if the cloak is how I percieve it to be - a simple cloak with magical essense tied into it - then no I do not feel as though it should have any penalties.
Why?
Lots of folks keep on ignoring the mechanics of BMR and playing the "what if" game. I'm speaking strictly from the current mechanics of how the polo cloak is.
In its current incarnation I find it very similar to khri silence. How/Why?
1. Both allow us to grab the hands of others and lead them, unlike RF.
2. Both allow the picking up of items, however when we pick up coins we get this...
You turn your poloh'izh hide cloak.
You fade from vision.
You lose concentration on your invisibility.
You pick up 7 copper Lirums.
So what does this mean? Well since WE (us Barbarians) are not holding mana its cannot be that we lost our concentration holding the mana to produce the effect. As far as what we're concentrating on, I dont know I'll leave that up to the GMs to decide.
Now a few of you are pointing to this line
>> The pervasive stench of magical corruption splinters your attempt to berserk, your inner fire shaken by its deep-rooted presence.
Looks like a draw back to me. Unable to roar, berserk or dance. Sure we can start out of it, but thats only half functionality.
Also - lets look at the creatures themselves. How many of you can actually kill them let alone hunt them? These are not magic wielding creatures. They are not like adan'f mages or seodmoars which cast tingle. These are simple, mundane creatures which have scales which help them appear invisible. Of all the times Ive been in there I've never once seem them prep a spell or show any indication of a spell being casted.
Now perhaps in the process of making the cloak some magic was imbued into the cloak? Who knows - that might be what gives it that magical essense, but the fact remains and not one of you can contest this:
To sum it up - if the cloak is deemed magical in the same sense as CJs, Runes and others then yes, Im all for an IF hit as a penalty.
I will also clarify that I feel things like the winged boots should not be restricted to us for the same similar reasons. Remember, the topic at hand is polo cloaks. The argument that winged boots don't work is not enough to say polo cloaks should not work.
I also wanna apologize to anyone who felt I was attacking them. I just get fustrated when points I bring up are ignored and folks keep restating their same argument which has already been shot down.
-Galren Moonskin
Messenger Boy: The Thessalonian you're fighting... he's the biggest man I've ever seen. I wouldn't want to fight him.
Achilles: Thats why no-one will remember your name.
If the cloak is magical in the same sense as a rune or a CJ or such then yes, I'd be in favor of seeing a small inner fire hit.
However, if the cloak is how I percieve it to be - a simple cloak with magical essense tied into it - then no I do not feel as though it should have any penalties.
Why?
Lots of folks keep on ignoring the mechanics of BMR and playing the "what if" game. I'm speaking strictly from the current mechanics of how the polo cloak is.
In its current incarnation I find it very similar to khri silence. How/Why?
1. Both allow us to grab the hands of others and lead them, unlike RF.
2. Both allow the picking up of items, however when we pick up coins we get this...
You turn your poloh'izh hide cloak.
You fade from vision.
You lose concentration on your invisibility.
You pick up 7 copper Lirums.
So what does this mean? Well since WE (us Barbarians) are not holding mana its cannot be that we lost our concentration holding the mana to produce the effect. As far as what we're concentrating on, I dont know I'll leave that up to the GMs to decide.
Now a few of you are pointing to this line
>> The pervasive stench of magical corruption splinters your attempt to berserk, your inner fire shaken by its deep-rooted presence.
Looks like a draw back to me. Unable to roar, berserk or dance. Sure we can start out of it, but thats only half functionality.
Also - lets look at the creatures themselves. How many of you can actually kill them let alone hunt them? These are not magic wielding creatures. They are not like adan'f mages or seodmoars which cast tingle. These are simple, mundane creatures which have scales which help them appear invisible. Of all the times Ive been in there I've never once seem them prep a spell or show any indication of a spell being casted.
Now perhaps in the process of making the cloak some magic was imbued into the cloak? Who knows - that might be what gives it that magical essense, but the fact remains and not one of you can contest this:
| In the current incarnation of the cloak, regardless of what you THINK there is no evidence of mana being used, there is no evidence of a necessity of MD or any magical skills, there is no evidence of any particular mana (holy, elemental, etc) being tied to the cloak. |
To sum it up - if the cloak is deemed magical in the same sense as CJs, Runes and others then yes, Im all for an IF hit as a penalty.
I will also clarify that I feel things like the winged boots should not be restricted to us for the same similar reasons. Remember, the topic at hand is polo cloaks. The argument that winged boots don't work is not enough to say polo cloaks should not work.
I also wanna apologize to anyone who felt I was attacking them. I just get fustrated when points I bring up are ignored and folks keep restating their same argument which has already been shot down.
-Galren Moonskin
Messenger Boy: The Thessalonian you're fighting... he's the biggest man I've ever seen. I wouldn't want to fight him.
Achilles: Thats why no-one will remember your name.
I think we can effectively partition this whole arguement into three opinions:
1) Polo's are magical, and magic is magic, so barbarians shouldn't be wanting (or able) to use them.
2) Polo's are magical, but not actually magic requiring us to use mana, therefore maybe a reasonable penalty would be ok.
3) Polo's might or might not be magical, but since we don't interact with the magic itself, there's no problem.
Did I miss any?
I personally subscribe to #1 and would be willing to accept #2. Vinjince seems to be arguing for #2 and Galren, I believe, argues #3, and a number of others argue #1.
Magic's Death Caraamon M.,
Gor'Tog Barbarian Extrordi...Well somewhat average
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
1) Polo's are magical, and magic is magic, so barbarians shouldn't be wanting (or able) to use them.
2) Polo's are magical, but not actually magic requiring us to use mana, therefore maybe a reasonable penalty would be ok.
3) Polo's might or might not be magical, but since we don't interact with the magic itself, there's no problem.
Did I miss any?
I personally subscribe to #1 and would be willing to accept #2. Vinjince seems to be arguing for #2 and Galren, I believe, argues #3, and a number of others argue #1.
Magic's Death Caraamon M.,
Gor'Tog Barbarian Extrordi...Well somewhat average
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Just thought I would toss my two cents in - as a barbarian, I probably would not use a polo cloak. However, that is a purely role-playing choice (even if it isn't magic, it seems to much like magic for me to find favor with it.) That being said: I think that if a cloak is actively magical, there should be an IF hit, if it isn't actively magic, then it should be usable without restriction. Which it is is really up to the GMs, but I thought I would toss out my theory of how it might work if it isn't active magic (please note this is only a theory, which I figured I would toss out for others to enjoy, but it makes sense to me):
The poz have 'naturally' evolved invisiblity, which draws on mana to power, but isn't a spell per-say. When they are skinned, this imbedded magic remains in their skin, which is then made into the cloak. A cloak is worn one of two ways - 1) the naturally invisible side out, which is the outer skin of the creature when its skinned and renders the user invisible or 2) the naturally visible, or inside portion of the skin, work facing out which can clearly be seen. Turning the cloak doesn't involved activating a magical pattern in any way, it just choosing to put the already existing pattern between you and others. As for the need to cover every little body part - invisibility would need to involve one of two things - erasing your presence from the minds of others, or bending light around youself. From everything I've heard or seen, I believe that the polo cloaks would be the later - in which case the actually bending MUST be able to affect light which only passes nearby, never striking the cloak itself. Otherwise there would be distortion and you wouldn't be invisible. That being the case, I don't think its too unreasonable to postulate that it could still render small areas (like an open face area or a hand sticking out of the robe) invisible. The fact that you can't roar or berserk while using an active cloak could easily be explained by the presence of mana in the natural magical pattern of the cloak, even if the barbarian does nothing to actively manipulate this pattern.
The poz have 'naturally' evolved invisiblity, which draws on mana to power, but isn't a spell per-say. When they are skinned, this imbedded magic remains in their skin, which is then made into the cloak. A cloak is worn one of two ways - 1) the naturally invisible side out, which is the outer skin of the creature when its skinned and renders the user invisible or 2) the naturally visible, or inside portion of the skin, work facing out which can clearly be seen. Turning the cloak doesn't involved activating a magical pattern in any way, it just choosing to put the already existing pattern between you and others. As for the need to cover every little body part - invisibility would need to involve one of two things - erasing your presence from the minds of others, or bending light around youself. From everything I've heard or seen, I believe that the polo cloaks would be the later - in which case the actually bending MUST be able to affect light which only passes nearby, never striking the cloak itself. Otherwise there would be distortion and you wouldn't be invisible. That being the case, I don't think its too unreasonable to postulate that it could still render small areas (like an open face area or a hand sticking out of the robe) invisible. The fact that you can't roar or berserk while using an active cloak could easily be explained by the presence of mana in the natural magical pattern of the cloak, even if the barbarian does nothing to actively manipulate this pattern.
In an effort to be more cogent about my arguement I will lay it out in what I hope is a clear format.
Fact: It has been stated that the cloak contains a magic pattern, therefore the cloak is a "magical device." This is supported by its effects on barbarian roars/dances/berserks.
Assumption: Since there is no indication that the creature that it's made from has any magic powers, the magic was
probably added at its creation.
Assumption: The cloak's "down time" is due to the need to absorb magic energy from the surrounding rounds to recharge it's "battery."
Assumption: Either the cloak itself turns invisible and the user hides behind it, or the cloak directly uses magic on the wearer to make them invisible.
Fact: The cloak is stated to be made from polo hides and scales.
Assumption: Because it is hide and scales, the cloak is not able to be seen through like cloth would.
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Statement of Possible Result 1: If the cloak itself turns invisible, then there should be penalties instituted for having to completely cover yourself in it. Climbing, swimming, even walking would have problems due to the cloak restricting movment and cutting off sight.
Statement of Possible Result 2: If the cloak actually "casts" an effect upon the wearer, it should be subject to BMR and the user should suffer from Inner Fire loss as if a successful spell was cast on them. The BMR effect should manifest as either a chance of failing to work, as a reduced duration of effect, or both.
Reasoning for Additional Penalties: It seems to me that since the cloak can be used while dancing or berserking, not being able to activate them while hidden is an inconvenience rather than a significant penalty. It would be simple to create a macro for "berserk/dance, turn cloak" which would mainly negate the problem. Since roars can be done immediately preceeding activating, or immediately after voiding the invisibility, this also seems to be inadequate as well.
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Reasoning for Not Removing Completely: After speaking with Galren I have come to believe there must be some leeway in the way barbarians are allowed to play their characters. Like the island barbarian leader, not all barbarians should be forced to totally shun magic. However, I do believe that since it provides an advantage to use these items, there should be a partially or fully compensating penalty applied for choosing to follow that path.
In my opinion, the barbarian dislike of magic comes from the belief that relying upon it will make you weak. I believe this should be played out in the form of weakness in Inner Fire or BMR as a result of choosing to use magic devices. I believe this is not only important for established principles of magic and BMR interaction, but also for reasons of balancing of underlying game mechanics.
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And because I'm me:
Statement of Character's Barbarian Feelings (which has no bearing on this arguement): Magic is bad! Relying upon magic makes you weak, like having someone else lift your weights for you.
Magic's Death Caraamon M.,
Gor'Tog Barbarian Extrordi...Well somewhat average
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Fact: It has been stated that the cloak contains a magic pattern, therefore the cloak is a "magical device." This is supported by its effects on barbarian roars/dances/berserks.
Assumption: Since there is no indication that the creature that it's made from has any magic powers, the magic was
probably added at its creation.
Assumption: The cloak's "down time" is due to the need to absorb magic energy from the surrounding rounds to recharge it's "battery."
Assumption: Either the cloak itself turns invisible and the user hides behind it, or the cloak directly uses magic on the wearer to make them invisible.
Fact: The cloak is stated to be made from polo hides and scales.
Assumption: Because it is hide and scales, the cloak is not able to be seen through like cloth would.
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Statement of Possible Result 1: If the cloak itself turns invisible, then there should be penalties instituted for having to completely cover yourself in it. Climbing, swimming, even walking would have problems due to the cloak restricting movment and cutting off sight.
Statement of Possible Result 2: If the cloak actually "casts" an effect upon the wearer, it should be subject to BMR and the user should suffer from Inner Fire loss as if a successful spell was cast on them. The BMR effect should manifest as either a chance of failing to work, as a reduced duration of effect, or both.
Reasoning for Additional Penalties: It seems to me that since the cloak can be used while dancing or berserking, not being able to activate them while hidden is an inconvenience rather than a significant penalty. It would be simple to create a macro for "berserk/dance, turn cloak" which would mainly negate the problem. Since roars can be done immediately preceeding activating, or immediately after voiding the invisibility, this also seems to be inadequate as well.
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Reasoning for Not Removing Completely: After speaking with Galren I have come to believe there must be some leeway in the way barbarians are allowed to play their characters. Like the island barbarian leader, not all barbarians should be forced to totally shun magic. However, I do believe that since it provides an advantage to use these items, there should be a partially or fully compensating penalty applied for choosing to follow that path.
In my opinion, the barbarian dislike of magic comes from the belief that relying upon it will make you weak. I believe this should be played out in the form of weakness in Inner Fire or BMR as a result of choosing to use magic devices. I believe this is not only important for established principles of magic and BMR interaction, but also for reasons of balancing of underlying game mechanics.
-
And because I'm me:
Statement of Character's Barbarian Feelings (which has no bearing on this arguement): Magic is bad! Relying upon magic makes you weak, like having someone else lift your weights for you.
Magic's Death Caraamon M.,
Gor'Tog Barbarian Extrordi...Well somewhat average
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Here's my take on the polo cloak. It's a mundane source of invisibility. The skin of the polo'izh has this natural property, and is controlled by the animal itself. The polo'izh does not stay invisible all the time, it's a survival reflex.
The strong unidentifiable magic present in the cloak is necessary to keep the refracting properties of the skin intact. I think of it like taking a skin from a octopus, flounder, chameleon or other animal that can change it's skin color to "disappear" into it's environment. Those are the closest things we have to the polo'izh's ability in the real world.
Well, once the animal is dead, the skin will no longer change color. The magic is present to preserve the polo'izh's natural ability without the animal.
Here is the cloak's look: The interior of the cloak has somehow been specially prepared and has a distinct iridescent quality.
Iridescence is caused by (white) light refracting through thin films of material.
If you had the ability to make a magical cloak that made you invisible, why would you use the skin of an animal that has natural invisibility? If rendering the user of the cloak was actually magic, wouldn't any skin work?
There is another cloak that will render the user invisible, the arzumos hide ones. They are not the same as the polo'izh cloaks. They have a finite number of charges. This would imply that they are indeed magical in nature.
As for not being able to see through the hide and needing to be fully covered by the cloak, sorry, physics does not apply here. It's for playability. If you were truly invisible, you would be blind. Light needs to be focused on your retina for you to see. If you were invisible, light could not do that. It would either pass straight through you (meaning your entire body is invisible), or be bent around you. As far as I can tell, the cloak does not render your body invisible, it bends light around the cloak and you within it. It's called suspension of disbelief.
-Gavyn
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
The strong unidentifiable magic present in the cloak is necessary to keep the refracting properties of the skin intact. I think of it like taking a skin from a octopus, flounder, chameleon or other animal that can change it's skin color to "disappear" into it's environment. Those are the closest things we have to the polo'izh's ability in the real world.
Well, once the animal is dead, the skin will no longer change color. The magic is present to preserve the polo'izh's natural ability without the animal.
Here is the cloak's look: The interior of the cloak has somehow been specially prepared and has a distinct iridescent quality.
Iridescence is caused by (white) light refracting through thin films of material.
If you had the ability to make a magical cloak that made you invisible, why would you use the skin of an animal that has natural invisibility? If rendering the user of the cloak was actually magic, wouldn't any skin work?
There is another cloak that will render the user invisible, the arzumos hide ones. They are not the same as the polo'izh cloaks. They have a finite number of charges. This would imply that they are indeed magical in nature.
As for not being able to see through the hide and needing to be fully covered by the cloak, sorry, physics does not apply here. It's for playability. If you were truly invisible, you would be blind. Light needs to be focused on your retina for you to see. If you were invisible, light could not do that. It would either pass straight through you (meaning your entire body is invisible), or be bent around you. As far as I can tell, the cloak does not render your body invisible, it bends light around the cloak and you within it. It's called suspension of disbelief.
-Gavyn
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
>>Here's my take on the polo cloak. It's a mundane source of invisibility. The skin of the polo'izh has this natural property, and is controlled by the animal itself. The polo'izh does not stay invisible all the time, it's a survival reflex.
Then you would need to cover yourself head to toe in the cloak to become invisible (completely wrapping yourself in it), which would make a number of activities difficult or impossible.
Second point, if its natural invisibility, why is it when you attempt to initiate barbarian special powers while in the cloak you get messages regarding "magic" preventing you from doing it.
Third point, nothing else minus 1 special thief guild ability in the game is possible of something like 'natural invisibility'. The balance issues I think if you tried to debate that this cloak is capable of being a pocket handy version of khri silence is staggering. That could mean there might be cloaks one day capable of giving the wearer a natural 'berserk' effect, etc. It seems much more likely to me that the polo cloak (coded at a time when invisibility runes were common) is magical. If you guys want to campaign for such an item to perform its duties 'naturally', be my guest, but that might be dangerous logic. Meanwhile, every other such item in the game is a magical device. If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck and looks like a duck, then it probably isnt a peacock now is it?
Farewell, remorse: all good to me is lost; Evil, be thou my good.
~Paradise Lost (bk. IX, l. 171)
Then you would need to cover yourself head to toe in the cloak to become invisible (completely wrapping yourself in it), which would make a number of activities difficult or impossible.
Second point, if its natural invisibility, why is it when you attempt to initiate barbarian special powers while in the cloak you get messages regarding "magic" preventing you from doing it.
Third point, nothing else minus 1 special thief guild ability in the game is possible of something like 'natural invisibility'. The balance issues I think if you tried to debate that this cloak is capable of being a pocket handy version of khri silence is staggering. That could mean there might be cloaks one day capable of giving the wearer a natural 'berserk' effect, etc. It seems much more likely to me that the polo cloak (coded at a time when invisibility runes were common) is magical. If you guys want to campaign for such an item to perform its duties 'naturally', be my guest, but that might be dangerous logic. Meanwhile, every other such item in the game is a magical device. If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck and looks like a duck, then it probably isnt a peacock now is it?
Farewell, remorse: all good to me is lost; Evil, be thou my good.
~Paradise Lost (bk. IX, l. 171)
>>Also - lets look at the creatures themselves. How many of you can actually kill them let alone hunt them? These are not magic wielding creatures. They are not like adan'f mages or seodmoars which cast tingle. These are simple, mundane creatures which have scales which help them appear invisible. Of all the times Ive been in there I've never once seem them prep a spell or show any indication of a spell being casted.
If invisibility is an inherent property of polo scales, then shouldn't leathers made from the same scales be able to grant invisibility as well?
That said, I think Gavyn's explanation makes a lot of sense. I also think it makes sense to have the cloak cause a miniscule IF hit, perhaps due to the magical interior rubbing against the Barb because of turning the cloak. But if it stays how it is that's no sweat off of my back.
~Thilan
If invisibility is an inherent property of polo scales, then shouldn't leathers made from the same scales be able to grant invisibility as well?
That said, I think Gavyn's explanation makes a lot of sense. I also think it makes sense to have the cloak cause a miniscule IF hit, perhaps due to the magical interior rubbing against the Barb because of turning the cloak. But if it stays how it is that's no sweat off of my back.
~Thilan
