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In looking over some old quotes from various GMs on the Bard Guild, I found this one and wanted to share it (within the context of where new spells can come from):
"Many guilds are, in one sense or another, less than they used to be. In particular, the Bards, Moon Mages and Necromancers all have heritages that go far beyond what the modern organizations encompass. In those cases, spells can be found by delving into the past, finding lost grimories, and otherwise doing a little Indiana Jones action." - Armifer
There's a lot of good lore and stories out there about the history of Moon Mages and Necromancers and hints at their long past. Bards seem to have had the slate wiped clean during the suppression by the Dragon Priests, and there's little to no in game lore about anything. Even a "Who knows the truth, maybe the players never will." sort of ending for something.
For a Guild that's fine with using Sorcery to meet Magic skill requirements, you'd think there might be a bit more out there about forbidden knowledge or something.
Sorcery for Bards is a callback to their old scroll perk and generalist approach. It's less about forbidden knowledge.
Lower case sorcery vs Sorcery.
(There are, of course, exceptions).
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
Lower case sorcery vs Sorcery.
(There are, of course, exceptions).
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
>>Sorcery for Bards is a callback to their old scroll perk and generalist approach. It's less about forbidden knowledge.
>>Lower case sorcery vs Sorcery.
>>(There are, of course, exceptions).
I recognize this, but there are three Guilds that allow for the Sorcery skill (am I wrong to capitalize the skill?): Necromancer, Moon Mage, and Bard. Bards getting to use it just because they are "generalists" seems like a weak line when other Magic primary Guilds aren't allowed to use Sorcery skill (I will add skill when I capitalize Sorcery to make sure people reading this post understand what I am saying).
All sorcery (lower case and trying to embrace all forms of sorcery) is (1) violent, (2) unstable, and (3) greedy. Even if Bards aren't active in the realm of sorcery that creates divine outrage (Necromancers) or some sort of Corruption of their confound (Moon Mages, other High Sorcery spells to be released), everything in the lore I've read still indicates it's not exactly something most civil organizations approve of.
Sure, right now in game the only use of the Sorcery skill for Bards is casting legal, "normal" spells of other Guilds. There's no Feral Magic or Low Sorcery spell system out yet. But it still is a form of "forbidden knowledge" because for most other Guilds, the leadership does not support/recognize the development of the Sorcery skill. A Cleric will not be kicked out for studying Lunar Mana spells, but they won't be praised. A Bard can use their Sorcery skill for advancing in the Guild.
So for a Cleric, Sorcery skill isn't "forbidden knowledge" because they won't get kicked out, but it's not encouraged. So what's a phrase for that. "Disapproved knowledge?"
>>Lower case sorcery vs Sorcery.
>>(There are, of course, exceptions).
I recognize this, but there are three Guilds that allow for the Sorcery skill (am I wrong to capitalize the skill?): Necromancer, Moon Mage, and Bard. Bards getting to use it just because they are "generalists" seems like a weak line when other Magic primary Guilds aren't allowed to use Sorcery skill (I will add skill when I capitalize Sorcery to make sure people reading this post understand what I am saying).
All sorcery (lower case and trying to embrace all forms of sorcery) is (1) violent, (2) unstable, and (3) greedy. Even if Bards aren't active in the realm of sorcery that creates divine outrage (Necromancers) or some sort of Corruption of their confound (Moon Mages, other High Sorcery spells to be released), everything in the lore I've read still indicates it's not exactly something most civil organizations approve of.
Sure, right now in game the only use of the Sorcery skill for Bards is casting legal, "normal" spells of other Guilds. There's no Feral Magic or Low Sorcery spell system out yet. But it still is a form of "forbidden knowledge" because for most other Guilds, the leadership does not support/recognize the development of the Sorcery skill. A Cleric will not be kicked out for studying Lunar Mana spells, but they won't be praised. A Bard can use their Sorcery skill for advancing in the Guild.
So for a Cleric, Sorcery skill isn't "forbidden knowledge" because they won't get kicked out, but it's not encouraged. So what's a phrase for that. "Disapproved knowledge?"
>>I prefer to think of it more that to a Bard, the term "forbidden knowledge" is an oxymoron.
It just is confusing to me that the set up seems to be:
- Has no concept of "forbidden knowledge" because reading old and arcane scrolls is just standard operating procedure.
- Has a deep history that goes back as far as the Moon Mages and Necromancers.
- Has a history of hiding from the powers that be (Dragon Priests), learning to operate in secrecy.
So you have the possibility for stores of knowledge (either written or oral) dating back older than nearly any other organization, so you'd think there's SOMETHING interesting hidden in some library that is located hidden beneath some ale-house somewhere, but there's zilch.
It just is confusing to me that the set up seems to be:
- Has no concept of "forbidden knowledge" because reading old and arcane scrolls is just standard operating procedure.
- Has a deep history that goes back as far as the Moon Mages and Necromancers.
- Has a history of hiding from the powers that be (Dragon Priests), learning to operate in secrecy.
So you have the possibility for stores of knowledge (either written or oral) dating back older than nearly any other organization, so you'd think there's SOMETHING interesting hidden in some library that is located hidden beneath some ale-house somewhere, but there's zilch.
>>Bards getting to use it just because they are "generalists" seems like a weak line when other Magic primary Guilds aren't allowed to use Sorcery skill (I will add skill when I capitalize Sorcery to make sure people reading this post understand what I am saying).
FWIW, I was opposed to Bards getting Sorcery as a guild-advancing skill because I agree with you, it is a fairly weak correlation to a guild ability I went out of my way to squish to begin with. However, what we have is what we have, and Raesh is not lying as to the reasoning behind it.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
FWIW, I was opposed to Bards getting Sorcery as a guild-advancing skill because I agree with you, it is a fairly weak correlation to a guild ability I went out of my way to squish to begin with. However, what we have is what we have, and Raesh is not lying as to the reasoning behind it.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
>>FWIW, I was opposed to Bards getting Sorcery as a guild-advancing skill because I agree with you, it is a fairly weak correlation to a guild ability I went out of my way to squish to begin with. However, what we have is what we have, and Raesh is not lying as to the reasoning behind it.
Am I right in assuming that this isn't going to become a camel's nose, and that Bards should be thankful they get it, but not expect anything else ever to become of it?
Am I right in assuming that this isn't going to become a camel's nose, and that Bards should be thankful they get it, but not expect anything else ever to become of it?
<<Am I right in assuming that this isn't going to become a camel's nose, and that Bards should be thankful they get it, but not expect anything else ever to become of it?
That's SLIP COIN.
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That's SLIP COIN.
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>><<Am I right in assuming that this isn't going to become a camel's nose, and that Bards should be thankful they get it, but not expect anything else ever to become of it?
>>That's SLIP COIN.
Hah.
The more I go through and start writing stuff down, the more I see the legacy of the "jack of all trades" approach given to Bards.
In no particular order, attempting to categorize randomly.
SURVIVAL- Tertiary skillset, but gets ...
- Slip Coin. Very minor, but still, only non-Survival Prime Guild to get any of the slips.
- Buffs to Survival Skills. Misdirection and Drums of the Snake are, I think, the only Magic augmentation spells that buff survival skills among a Survival Tertiary Guild. Rising Mists with WM is probably close though.
- Able to use Thievery for Survival Requirements.
MAGIC- Secondary skillset, not one of the big three, but gets ...
- Able to use Sorcery for Magic Requirements.
- I believe only non-big three, non-Necromancer Guild to get buffs to Magic skills.
LORE- Sure, primary skillset, so you'd expect a lot, but it's interesting to note ...
- Empaths don't get any buffs to Lore skills.
- Planned Trader magic gives them a handful of Crafting buffs, and Appraisal.
- Few Guilds get Tactics buffs, Moon Mages Enchanting, Necromancers Alchemy.
- Bards have a Crafting buff, Scholarship buff, and Performance buff.
I did the math once looking at the distribution of requirements across the skill set and I think based on my analysis Bards game off as one of the most "average" Guilds, the opposite of a guild like Emapth or Barbarians where some skill sets have very low requirements but in balance other skill sets have high requirements. Paladins and Traders were similar, which is interesting when you notice they are the three Guilds with the smallest membership.
>>That's SLIP COIN.
Hah.
The more I go through and start writing stuff down, the more I see the legacy of the "jack of all trades" approach given to Bards.
In no particular order, attempting to categorize randomly.
SURVIVAL- Tertiary skillset, but gets ...
- Slip Coin. Very minor, but still, only non-Survival Prime Guild to get any of the slips.
- Buffs to Survival Skills. Misdirection and Drums of the Snake are, I think, the only Magic augmentation spells that buff survival skills among a Survival Tertiary Guild. Rising Mists with WM is probably close though.
- Able to use Thievery for Survival Requirements.
MAGIC- Secondary skillset, not one of the big three, but gets ...
- Able to use Sorcery for Magic Requirements.
- I believe only non-big three, non-Necromancer Guild to get buffs to Magic skills.
LORE- Sure, primary skillset, so you'd expect a lot, but it's interesting to note ...
- Empaths don't get any buffs to Lore skills.
- Planned Trader magic gives them a handful of Crafting buffs, and Appraisal.
- Few Guilds get Tactics buffs, Moon Mages Enchanting, Necromancers Alchemy.
- Bards have a Crafting buff, Scholarship buff, and Performance buff.
I did the math once looking at the distribution of requirements across the skill set and I think based on my analysis Bards game off as one of the most "average" Guilds, the opposite of a guild like Emapth or Barbarians where some skill sets have very low requirements but in balance other skill sets have high requirements. Paladins and Traders were similar, which is interesting when you notice they are the three Guilds with the smallest membership.
>>I would expect ECHO to be the extent of sorcery-centric development for Bards.
So question, Bards are defending history, are Lore primary, but not really involved in the sorcery end of things. Is there any overlap with magical research, or is the Lore aspect of the Bards really focused on the mundane performance, history, crafting, etc?
So question, Bards are defending history, are Lore primary, but not really involved in the sorcery end of things. Is there any overlap with magical research, or is the Lore aspect of the Bards really focused on the mundane performance, history, crafting, etc?
> - Slip Coin. Very minor, but still, only non-Survival Prime Guild to get any of the slips.
This one isn't really jack-of-all-trades stuff; rather, it's a reflection of the history of the slip ability. It was originally bard/thief legerdemain, and then later it was reworked to be survival-prime stealth stuff.
> - Buffs to Survival Skills. Misdirection and Drums of the Snake are, I think, the only Magic augmentation spells that buff survival skills among a Survival Tertiary Guild. Rising Mists with WM is probably close though.
Clerics have a perception buff. And you're forgetting evasion, which is available to Bards, WMs, and Clerics, I believe. Evasion is kind of a special case, though.
This one isn't really jack-of-all-trades stuff; rather, it's a reflection of the history of the slip ability. It was originally bard/thief legerdemain, and then later it was reworked to be survival-prime stealth stuff.
> - Buffs to Survival Skills. Misdirection and Drums of the Snake are, I think, the only Magic augmentation spells that buff survival skills among a Survival Tertiary Guild. Rising Mists with WM is probably close though.
Clerics have a perception buff. And you're forgetting evasion, which is available to Bards, WMs, and Clerics, I believe. Evasion is kind of a special case, though.
There needs to be some distinction, otherwise Magic and Lore would be the same skill set.
There's also plenty of craziness in the realm of magic that isn't sorcery. The planar war, Voidspell, and the dark gods are just three diverse examples of not-sorcery things that Mages of different sorts have or do deal with that are tremendously destructive.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
There's also plenty of craziness in the realm of magic that isn't sorcery. The planar war, Voidspell, and the dark gods are just three diverse examples of not-sorcery things that Mages of different sorts have or do deal with that are tremendously destructive.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
>>There needs to be some distinction, otherwise Magic and Lore would be the same skill set.
The quirk I see is that in a lot of settings the Magic-Lore line would have a host of secrets regarding sorcery, extraplannar travel, demons or other oddities from other planes, and dark gods on the Magic side, and Lore would stick to straight history, lost civilizations, unknown lands, and the like. But in DR the Moon Mages are also the Indian Jones of the game and have the crazy archaeologist niche too.
I like the Ratha-shintu-selkie-A Bard's Adventure of Discovery tie in because I think it represents a little bit of what I'd like to see more of for Bards, at least the sense that you have in-game lore references (plus Recall in some areas) and the musical abilities the create some sort of in-game interaction.
The quirk I see is that in a lot of settings the Magic-Lore line would have a host of secrets regarding sorcery, extraplannar travel, demons or other oddities from other planes, and dark gods on the Magic side, and Lore would stick to straight history, lost civilizations, unknown lands, and the like. But in DR the Moon Mages are also the Indian Jones of the game and have the crazy archaeologist niche too.
I like the Ratha-shintu-selkie-A Bard's Adventure of Discovery tie in because I think it represents a little bit of what I'd like to see more of for Bards, at least the sense that you have in-game lore references (plus Recall in some areas) and the musical abilities the create some sort of in-game interaction.
