I don't even know if this is possible, but what about using bardic lore to give us meta spells without magic? I'm thinking of khri-like abilities that we turn on and it diminishes concentration (thus limiting the number of active abilities at once) and uses a small amount of mojo to activate. Bardic lore affects how easy it is to turn on, reduces the mojo cost, and reduces the refractory period. Performance affects duration/power/integretiy, and affects how many we push out simultaneously. The skill trains both bardic lore and performance, giving a heavy weight to the former.

Practically speaking it's a prep like symbiosis for cast spells, and a one-time activation for cyclic spells. Cyclics give you a flat concentration reduction while they run.

This let's us take advantage of our magic secondary status while retaining the thematic "bard" of old.


Some ideas:

* Siren's call (modifies Abandoned Heart) Adds a spawn bonus to the room. Thematically, you entice the creatures to their death.

* Lingering pack (modifies Aether Wolves): Aether wolves continues to pulse (1-3 times) after the effect has ended.

* Serenity (modifies Alberda's Balm): Enhances the calm effect into utter serenity, causing a severe shock (nerve damage or stun) if broken out early.

* Naga's Blessing (modifies Blessing of the Fae): Adds a debilitation affect that is a periodic disorient. Causes creatures to stop advancing, to stop facing, and breaks watch effects.

* Charismatic endeavor (Modifies Faenella's Grace): Gives you a charisma boost that stacks with other boosts; however, it's used solely to benefit prices, teaching ability, and learning rate while being taught. Replaces bluff amaze.

* Searing heat (Modifies Caress of the Sun): Adds a cast creatures option to caress and adds a burden/fatigue hits for everything.

* Subdue (Modifies Damaris' Lullaby): Sleeps everything in the room.

* Concussive maelstrom (Modifies Deseret's Maelstrom): Adds a TM component that slices at the skin.

* All-seeing eye (Modifies Eye of Kertigen): returns the perception boost.

* Defiance (modifies Harmony): Adds a one-time anti-stun ability. Replaces scream defiance.

* Healer's art (Modifies Hodierna's Lilt): adds the FA boost back.

* Bluff (Naming of Tears): You magically appear to be dead if stunned, incapacitated, knocked down, calmed, or slept. Replaces bluff dead.

* Mantle of Rebirth (Modifies Phoenix's Pyre): Wraps you in a fiery aura. Does fire damage to someone/thing that attacks you, and with enough power may cauterize your own external wounds.

* Shroud (Sanctuary): Sanctuary is now person oriented rather than room oriented. You shroud someone in a dome of light that prevents them from being engaged, targeted, or located. Anything at melee range is trapped in the dome with them.

* Thunder (Modifies Breath of Storms): Adds a half-power concussive shockwave that does impact damage after the cast (longer delay the further away the target is) (replaces scream conc)

* Chorus of the Muse (Modifies whisper's of the muse): equally buffs all crafting skills withing (performance/15) ranks of each other (reward the dedicated crafters).

We can choose the meta-abilities/feats much like we could regular spells. They would require the base spells, obviously, and perhaps circle/bardic lore/performance requirements. All learn like song scrolls. Some may be purchased. Some only found in drops. Perhaps even a specialization such that we can't learn all feats by level 150 to offset their power, and limited ability to forget feats (similar to barbs).

I definitely dig these, but I think a bigger limitation than Concentration might be needed... Not entirely sure on that, since I'm still getting back into the swing of things, but it looks like a really long list of awesome and I'm a big "game balance" nerd. Maybe a hard cap on how many can be active simultaneously (and honestly, looking at the cool stuff you suggested, I'm tempted for that hard cap to be 1) or possibly a limit on how many a Bard can "know" at any given time, and they can visit Guildleaders or special Bardic Libraries (ooh, I like this idea...) to swap out what their memorized abilities are.

Also, we need a cool name for them.

I

Hmm. It's an interesting idea - it'd play holy hell with our slot costing scheme - and I like how it ties into forgotten lore. The main two problems I have, conceptually, with it are that it's a very passive skill (Which makes it hard to train as anything other than "Oh, you get this exp too" and it doesn't quite feel right to me thematically that we have signature Bard only spells that are then modified by forgotten lore that is Bard only. I'm not sure I'm explaining that quite right, but thematically it'd make more sense if it modified more general knowledge into something Bard specific (Metaspells for AP spells or something).

-Raesh

"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose

What if there was an 'unlock' to each spell (or some spells had some things placed over to the 'unlock' portion, like locksmithing for Drums, for example), and capitalizing on it costs mojo?

Mojo should be a more dynamic pool that we interact with more. Right now I pretty much only use it to WHISTLE PIERCING to train Bardic Lore, and every now and then Defiance or Havoc for giggles. If it was akin to Pathway Juice for Warmies, or favor for Clerics, we might get some more mileage out of it!

Lots of guilds have spellslot free abilities - Moonies with predictions (and arguably some forms of transportation), Paladins with glyphs/smite, Clerics with communes, Warmies with pathways (and partially weapons), barbs get whirlwind for having just skills (though that's a different bag, perhaps), rangers get beseeches, traders get speculate (hahahahahahah), and Empaths get different healing upgrades/perks (HoH, Unity, Manipulate).

There's no reason to make it insane, but having Mojo upgrade some of our cyclics or spells in specific ways would be neat.

As much as I would like more cool abilities like these, I'm not sure they fit with what the GMs want to do with the guild skills. Basically, it seems like more magic -- which should require magic skill and spell slots.

Of course, the GMs are in a tough spot because, really, what should the guild skills be doing if not magic-like effects? So far it seems to be single-fire abilities that are particularly sound- or charisma-based. Maybe we can do some of the listed abilities but more fitted in line with that model?

For example:

* Serenity: Single-time room calm, lasts for a few minutes. Can be used at the same time as any cyclic.

* Subdue: Single-time sleep of everything, lasts 30 seconds.

>>> Raesh: thematically it'd make more sense if it modified more general knowledge into something Bard specific (Metaspells for AP spells or something).

You know, bards could probably use another TM spell but Strange Arrow is very similar to BOS. Maybe a meta-ability that allowed Bards to change the electricity damage of strange arrow to Frost or Fire?

I'm all for extra spell abilities. Love 'em. However, I'm pretty concerned about the spell slots aspect of this. Since more spell effects = higher spell slot cost, then what this is actually asking for is more spell slots and more buffed out spells. Also, it seems pretty standard that a spell is a spell. Either it's signature or not. So, if other guilds can cast these spells, they ought to be able to get everything out of them.

However... what might be interesting is a series of abilities that can be performed in accompaniment to a spell with an actual instrument, and one at a time, as you can only be playing one song at a time. It might drain your Mojo/Inspiration too. These abilities (not necessarily these ones) could meld song with magic to provide an extra bonus to the bard or the bard's group, or allow the spell effect to apply to the group when it otherwise wouldn't, and would meld with the enchante being played.

This is somewhat similar to how Ethereal Pathways work, I think this might allow something like this to work and not wreck the spell slot system. Otherwise it's just too good and also incongruous with the way the magic system currently works. I would be most displeased (to say the least) if all bard spells turned signature or something to support this.

> I'm pretty concerned about the spell slots aspect of this.

Just to be clear, I think that abilities are outside of the magic spell slots. As others have said, every guild gets abilities from beseeches to communes to summons to familiars to predictions to glpyhs... and on and on. I don't think modifying spells, especially spells that could be used only one at a time, should require slots.

> You're right of course. It just seems in this case that it's not disguised at all? It's straight up adding abilities to spells. Not that that's a bad thing, per se.


Bards have always been enchante centric. It was a major theme of the guild for years.

> I just struggle a little to see how it's not just turning us into magic primes.

Because the bonuses would be primarily powered by lores in conjunction with magic. That's very bard. This is no different than a backstabbing. You're not a barbarian just because you use a weapon to pull off a guild maneuver.

> I like this idea a lot. We used to be required to use instruments -- it would be nice if we could again.

I completely disagree. I was a bard back then. Back when you had to remove your helmet to pull off wind enchantes. When you had to remove gloves and empty hands to use most percussion instruments. I would not be happy about those requirements coming back.

> E.g., mass Cage of Light, or mass Benediction.

That sounds really fun, but I think it would end up being either overpowered or useless. Spread everything? Great, now everyone has regeneration. Limit how many you can spread? And you've got a skill only used in conjunction with mules. Can't target signature spells? Then we're now an AOE Idon's theft? Too OP? Now we're Idon's theft that can't be cast on ourselves.

> Just to be clear, I think that abilities are outside of the magic spell slots. As others have said, every guild gets abilities from beseeches to communes to summons to familiars to predictions to glpyhs... and on and on. I don't think modifying spells, especially spells that could be used only one at a time, should require slots.

To be honest? I can't see the difference, at all, on this one. You're talking about an ability that gives your spells more power without making them cost more (except requiring some Bardic Lore), and in such a way that it denies other guilds those abilities when they use scrolls. I think your idea is an interesting one, but the three Magic Primes all have a better case than Bards do for getting an ability like this. And, let's keep in mind that it's been stated that it's 70/30 spells/abilities for Magic Primes, the reverse for Magic Terts, and Secondaries are in the middle. So there's space for Magic Primes to have this ability too, and I'm guessing they would ask for it.

What this means is that I think this ability is extremely unlikely to happen in its given form because the GM's most likely will not want to write a bunch of abilities for other guilds to match this. Also, Bardic Lore isn't much of a cost, since it's so easy to train, so I proposed an opportunity cost that would allow what I think is a pretty cool idea to happen. AND give a reason to use instruments other than "my guild makes me". Personally, I kind of miss thematic elements of of the old bard days. Yeah, there were difficulties with it, but it was kind of cool as well. For what it's worth, I agree that Bards need a spell or an ability or something to allow them to avoid the weather, but anyway.

> You're talking about an ability that gives your spells more power without making them cost more (except requiring some Bardic Lore)

You mean like infusion, pathways, any stat booster, and to a lesser degree link?

Explicitly non-magical guilds still use the magic system (Thieves and even barbarians) with their own flavor, and just because something affects a magical ability doesn't mean you need spell slots for it (see meta spells).

> You're talking about an ability that gives your spells more power without making them cost more (except requiring some Bardic Lore)

And the bardic confound of history and music.

> and in such a way that it denies other guilds those abilities when they use scrolls.

Because they don't have the confound. That's kind of the point. The scroll is a resource. The lore is that bards see something in the resource that sparks a memory of something similar. You do a little research into the something similar, and you discover a way to use the core concept to your advantage with your skills as a bard.

> I think your idea is an interesting one, but the three Magic Primes all have a better case than Bards do for getting an ability like this.

Based on that logic, we should take away communes, infusion, familiars, some pathways, weapons, and predictions. Those are primarily "abilities" without the cost of spell slots and without modifying pure magic spells. That's crazy.

> So there's space for Magic Primes to have this ability too, and I'm guessing they would ask for it.

They already do, and I don't think there's any problem in writing a system that's expandable to other guilds. I would call that a plus.

> I think this ability is extremely unlikely to happen in its given form

Obviously. With rare exception (as pointed out in another thread) no suggestions, even if viable or of interest to programming GMs, would go live without tweaks that make sense behind the scenes.

> AND give a reason to use instruments other than "my guild makes me"

Your performance ability would affect duration. That's a reason. Bards should NOT want to require instruments to use your abilities. Just imagine taking off armor in a high level combat situation so that you can train bardic lore.

> I agree that Bards need a spell or an ability or something to allow them to avoid the weather

Caress of the sun is a 0 slot spell available at first circle.

> Two words: Inner Fire.

Inner Fire is in the magic skillset. It's PM by another name.

The barbarian analog of Bardic Lore is Expertise. Which is primarily about performing attack combos.

>Just imagine taking off armor in a high level combat situation so that you can train bardic lore.

To clarify, I am certainly not suggesting this. I am suggesting a BL ability that would be neat to USE, not necessarily for training. And furthermore I think the armor/two-hand/weather requirements of instruments should be looked at.

>Caress of the sun is a 0 slot spell available at first circle.

As an aside, I wish this were a standard spell and not a cyclic. I almost always want a different cyclic up so I never use it. Instead I resort to weatherproof instruments, which leaves me with very few choices and not as much RP flavor.

So, what I'd like to do is synthesize some of the things that have been suggested here into a cohesive whole, taking into account specific comments and concerns from GM Raesh. I apologize to anyone whose original ideas are about to be bastardized; I'm not trying to steal thunder or displace credit, I'm just trying to make a workable proposal for what I think is at it's core a great and innovative Bard system.

---

Forgotten Lore

Flavor: Much of Elanthia is content to live their lives ignorant of the past, occupying an era more than four centuries displaced from the man for which it's named. We enlightened few however - we Bards - understand that only by researching and learning from the past can we be truly prepared for the future. Others call these studies 'Forgotten Lore,' but to us, they may as well be current events.

Forgotten Lore ((Is this name already taken??)) allows a Bard to use his or her knowledge of Elanthian history and skill at research to expand or modify the abilities of certain spells. This is highly taxing to the Bard's concentration and requires not only knowledge of the spell in question, but a physical record of the spell which the Bard can consult. While the central thesis of this research is to build upon the magical talents innate to all Bards - which is to say those spells which draw on Elemental mana, and patterns which are accessible to all magic users - there are also some within the guild who delve deeper, studying foreign realms of magic. Coloqiually this is called "Forbidden Lore," as it edges into the oft demonized realm of sorcery, and while there is no formal restriction against studying it - knowledge is power, of course - it is not typically discussed in polite company.

Mechanical Translation: A Bard who has learned Forgotten Lore can EVOKE a spell scroll for a spell which he or she has learned or memorized, which activates a temporary effect which changes or adds to the way that spell works when the Bard casts it. ((While I'm on the subject, Enchanting is going to include the ability to scribe spell scrolls, right?)) Doing so would also be a unique way for Bards to train their unique ability: Bardic Lore. Upon successfully evoking a scroll, it would grant a lump sum of experience into the BL pool; the reason for it being a large rather than small ammount is that only one scroll can be evoked at a time, and while one is active the Bard would be unable to evoke another. The size of the lump sum would obviously be tied to tier and difficulty of spell as compared to the abilities of the bard, blah blah I hate all this magic math. There could/should also be a longer timer that diminishes the returns on evoking the same scroll multiple times. Something like this, roughly speaking:

Evoking a scroll for the first time: x field experience reward, 10 minute general evoke timer, 30 minute specific evoke timer.
Evoking the same scroll, 10 minutes later: 0.5x field experience reward, 10 minute general evoke timer, +30 minute specific evoke timer (for a new running total of 50 minutes).
Evoking the same scroll, 10 more minutes later: 0.25x field experience reward, 10 minute general evoke timer, +30 minute specific evoke timer (now at 70 minutes).

Before getting into the nitty-gritty, I want to point out that these times I just came up with are totally arbitrary, so if they seem stupid and wrong, just adjust them to something more reasonable. I also think there might need to be a "buildup" timer, where each time you evoke there is a randomized chance that you'll get burned out on studying (happens to the best of us) and are unable to utilize Forgotten Lore for x minutes.

Probably would want to cap the specific spell timer at 120 minutes, and the exp gain at something like 0.05x reward. On the other hand, if the Bard is cycling through three or more scrolls, they're going to have a much better result, given that they won't be hitting diminishing returns. Failing to successfully evoke a scroll (it is a skill, after all, so failure is possible) would yield a much smaller field experience reward, but with no timers. This probably won't be all that common anyhow, since the Bard needs to know the spell. The only scenario I can think of off the top of my head would be if the Bard in question specifically went out of his or her way to learn a Guildleader-taught spell that was beyond his or her skill, and somehow got a scroll for that same spell.

Now, the realm of influence for this ability is sort of massive, since it technically includes every spell that exists or will ever exist, so we need to limit that a little. Thankfully, when you're dealing with an ability that is literally called "Forgotten Lore," it's easy to come up with a reason for why there are holes in the knowledge: it's been forgotten. The initial offering of spells doesn't need to be all that much: maybe 4-7 Bard spells (with an emphasis on the most and least commonly used), 2-3 AP spells, 1-2 Warrior Mage spells (still Elemental) and one spell from another guild, as an appetizer for those sorcery-minded Bards, like myself. More spells can be added individually or in small packages, complete with short but fun (or long and complicated) GM-run events, ranging from "Hay guyz, I found dis book," to "No time for love, Doctor Jones!"

If we want to add a "quest" element to learning each individual spell modifier, that is where the Bardic Library idea comes into play; before being able to utilize the Forgotten Lore of a spell, the Bard must visit a specific locale where the "core" knowledge is stored, and spend some time studying the expert texts. Effectively this is a switch the Bard flips, enabling them to evoke scrolls for the spell on the fly. Before visiting the library and studying, they would get a note upon evoking a scroll that they understand the general idea, but need to do more targeted research in an appropriate facility. Once this research is done of course, the Bard can "refresh" his or her memory anywhere he or she likes, with just knowledge of the spell and a scroll to evoke.

Since, as GM Raesh said, this whole concept does sort of derail the whole spell-slot system, the adjustments made by this meta-ability need to be balanced; giving outright perks to existing spells would be tantamount to giving bards free slots. To account for this, abilities should generally fit into three categories: moderate and/or thematic bonuses, exchanging one effect for another, and party-based enhancements.

Here are some example spells and effects:

* Abandoned Heart: Adds a spawn bonus to the room.

* Aether Wolves: Spell pulses 1-3 times after the effect has ended.

* Faenella's Grace: Gives you an additional Charisma boost for prices and teaching ability. Superceeds bluff amaze.

* Caress of the Sun: Extends rain-denial effect to the entire room and instantly dries the caster's group.

* Eye of Kertigen: Returns the Perception boost.

* Ease Burden: In addition to lowering burden, reduces the Performance penalty from wearing armor.

* Seal Cambrinth: Allows caster to "partition" the cambrinth item so that a certain amount of mana will only discharge for cyclic spells, and not for standard spells.

* Fire Shard: Reduces fire damage, and replaces impact with slightly greater slice damage.

As mentioned above, this can be expanded to literally every spell in the game, and I think that'd be the ideal end goal. I'm also skipping the suggestion for a non-Elemental spell on account of the fact that it's the part of the idea I enjoy the most, and I don't want to seem like I'm pitching an ability just for myself. Thoughts?

I

>>...occupying an era more than four centuries displaced from the man for which it's named.

>>Closer to 650, for what it's worth.

That's what more than means.

I

> Bards aren't necessarily special for having access to a large library, but one place where they definitely stand alone is they have the actual, supernatural ability to perceive the past.

I've always wanted to do more with this. Maybe use it to play detective by solving mysteries. I wouldn't want it to be as simple as "Oh, there was a murder here? I'll just view the past and see who done it." There should be some mundane legwork required to gather the necessary clues to figure out where the relevant evokes are to be found and how to interpret them. Either talking to people or hitting the books in the case of more historical mysteries.

Unfortunately, I can't see a good way to implement it as anything more than a one-off by an area designer.