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Spiritual combat spells have traditionally been unfit to use against undead, and Soul Sickness pays homage to that. It is for flavor rather than an overarching SvSp decision.
While I intend to keep to that tradition where viable, it will not undermine the guild's undead focus, and may change direction if we decide to do something with incorporeal undead in the future. I cannot yet say whether the next new SvSp spell will have the restriction.
>>If Male and CoZ are going to get this same restriction then I'd prefer to see them remain WvW.
They are not.
GM Grejuva
If SvSp spells are supposed to be "bow before the awesome power of the gods" spells, then I think they should be extra-effective against the undead. It certainly makes more sense that a spell of that nature would be more useful against a shambling mindless zombie than casting a WvW (cognitive trickery IIRC -- what's in there to trick?) spell.
I would say reverse the two.
~Thilan
I would say reverse the two.
~Thilan
Fiction / concept wise:
SvSp roughly covers two unrelated fields: theurgy (manipulating divine energies) and soul manipulation. Spells that are themed around hindering, removing, or otherwise hurting someone's soul are going to be ineffective against the undead, since they have a problem with that organ.
Design wise:
We have ran "X spell is better against the undead" into the ground. Outside this context, many of you have lamented about the guild being pigeon-holed as undead hunters -- and, hey, I agree with you. Part of getting away from that is designing spells that...aren't meant for hunting undead.
Taking the entire Cleric spellbook in perspective, my opinion has been that Cleric spell selection is in dire need of width more than depth: the few niches the spellbooks explore to some completion, they really explore. If we delve much deeper into undead hunting spells or direct defense spells, we risk loosening Durin's Bane. I would like to continue to expand the Cleric spellbooks sideways instead, exploring new or underutilized ground for what Cleric spells can do.
>>It certainly makes more sense that a spell of that nature would be more useful against a shambling mindless zombie than casting a WvW (cognitive trickery IIRC -- what's in there to trick?) spell.
The zombie has some vestige of a mind, even if only animal intellect, otherwise it wouldn't be able to operate. The thing it lacks which makes it sub-human is it soul. Also, it smells bad.
-Armifer
"...everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms-- to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
-Viktor Frankl
SvSp roughly covers two unrelated fields: theurgy (manipulating divine energies) and soul manipulation. Spells that are themed around hindering, removing, or otherwise hurting someone's soul are going to be ineffective against the undead, since they have a problem with that organ.
Design wise:
We have ran "X spell is better against the undead" into the ground. Outside this context, many of you have lamented about the guild being pigeon-holed as undead hunters -- and, hey, I agree with you. Part of getting away from that is designing spells that...aren't meant for hunting undead.
Taking the entire Cleric spellbook in perspective, my opinion has been that Cleric spell selection is in dire need of width more than depth: the few niches the spellbooks explore to some completion, they really explore. If we delve much deeper into undead hunting spells or direct defense spells, we risk loosening Durin's Bane. I would like to continue to expand the Cleric spellbooks sideways instead, exploring new or underutilized ground for what Cleric spells can do.
>>It certainly makes more sense that a spell of that nature would be more useful against a shambling mindless zombie than casting a WvW (cognitive trickery IIRC -- what's in there to trick?) spell.
The zombie has some vestige of a mind, even if only animal intellect, otherwise it wouldn't be able to operate. The thing it lacks which makes it sub-human is it soul. Also, it smells bad.
-Armifer
"...everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms-- to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
-Viktor Frankl
Thanks for the explanation.
>>We have ran "X spell is better against the undead" into the ground. Outside this context, many of you have lamented about the guild being pigeon-holed as undead hunters -- and, hey, I agree with you. Part of getting away from that is designing spells that...aren't meant for hunting undead.
Agreed, but does that mean we need spells that completely exclude working on undead, especially since this is only our second disabler and first non-WvW? Are we gaining anything in exchange for this limitation?
>>I would like to continue to expand the Cleric spellbooks sideways instead, exploring new or underutilized ground for what Cleric spells can do.
Looking forward to seeing what you guys have up your sleeves.
~Thilan
>>We have ran "X spell is better against the undead" into the ground. Outside this context, many of you have lamented about the guild being pigeon-holed as undead hunters -- and, hey, I agree with you. Part of getting away from that is designing spells that...aren't meant for hunting undead.
Agreed, but does that mean we need spells that completely exclude working on undead, especially since this is only our second disabler and first non-WvW? Are we gaining anything in exchange for this limitation?
>>I would like to continue to expand the Cleric spellbooks sideways instead, exploring new or underutilized ground for what Cleric spells can do.
Looking forward to seeing what you guys have up your sleeves.
~Thilan
>>Are we gaining anything in exchange for this limitation?
Yes. A contest that nobody else defends well against and a spell that is skewed in favor of the caster in addition to that.
-Armifer
"...everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms-- to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
-Viktor Frankl
Yes. A contest that nobody else defends well against and a spell that is skewed in favor of the caster in addition to that.
-Armifer
"...everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms-- to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
-Viktor Frankl
"Yes. A contest that nobody else defends well against and a spell that is skewed in favor of the caster in addition to that."
I am always in favor of that.
I don't have a basic issue with this specific spell not working on undead, my only concern is that with so much of a clerics arsenal working best against undead, most clerics will be dealing with undead a lot. I would hope we don't have a schism where we have many spells that work best/only against undead and many spells that don't work against undead because that would mean in every hunting situation we would be giving up a certain part of our arsenal.
"I would like to continue to expand the Cleric spellbooks sideways instead, exploring new or underutilized ground for what Cleric spells can do."
While I may disagree that our physical defense dance card is really full, I am more than happy to let go of that for new/underutilized ground being developed in ways that are useful and desireable.
I really liked what you posted regarding the developement thought process for Paladin Magic developement. I hope that Cleric spells are looked at in a similar light.
"The zombie has some vestige of a mind, even if only animal intellect, otherwise it wouldn't be able to operate."
Skeletons. Still irks me that a Skeleton can be scared by a Barbarian roaring.
"militantly enforcing the overly rigid standards of you and your small collection of friends"
I am always in favor of that.
I don't have a basic issue with this specific spell not working on undead, my only concern is that with so much of a clerics arsenal working best against undead, most clerics will be dealing with undead a lot. I would hope we don't have a schism where we have many spells that work best/only against undead and many spells that don't work against undead because that would mean in every hunting situation we would be giving up a certain part of our arsenal.
"I would like to continue to expand the Cleric spellbooks sideways instead, exploring new or underutilized ground for what Cleric spells can do."
While I may disagree that our physical defense dance card is really full, I am more than happy to let go of that for new/underutilized ground being developed in ways that are useful and desireable.
I really liked what you posted regarding the developement thought process for Paladin Magic developement. I hope that Cleric spells are looked at in a similar light.
"The zombie has some vestige of a mind, even if only animal intellect, otherwise it wouldn't be able to operate."
Skeletons. Still irks me that a Skeleton can be scared by a Barbarian roaring.
"militantly enforcing the overly rigid standards of you and your small collection of friends"
>>I may well be wrong, but I think that is a reference to Lord of the Rings.<<
You're not wrong, this is copy and pasted from a web site. Below
Despite an ill-fated attempt to recolonise Moria by Balin in 2989, Durin's Bane remained a dark and brooding menace in the ancient kingdom of the Dwarves, whose nature was hidden to the outside world.
In January 3019, the Fellowship of the Ring travelled through Moria on the Quest of Mount Doom. In Gandalf, the Balrog finally encountered a being of the same order and power as itself. As the two Maiar faced each other on the Bridge of Khazad-dum, Gandalf broke the Bridge and the Balrog fell into the depths, but Gandalf too was drawn into the abyss.
Both survived the fall, and Gandalf pursued the Balrog for eight days through the deepest caverns beneath Moria. At last they came to the Endless Stair, and climbed the steps that led to the peak of Zirakzigil. There Durin's Bane fought its last battle - for two days and nights, the Balrog battled with Gandalf, but at last it was cast from the peak, and broke the mountain-side as it plunged to its doom. It is important to note that there was no clear winner in this battle as Gandalf and The Balrog killed each other, however Gandalf was resurrected and sent back to Middle Earth as Gandalf the White and with greater powers.
Terra
~ The song that is irresistable ~
You're not wrong, this is copy and pasted from a web site. Below
Despite an ill-fated attempt to recolonise Moria by Balin in 2989, Durin's Bane remained a dark and brooding menace in the ancient kingdom of the Dwarves, whose nature was hidden to the outside world.
In January 3019, the Fellowship of the Ring travelled through Moria on the Quest of Mount Doom. In Gandalf, the Balrog finally encountered a being of the same order and power as itself. As the two Maiar faced each other on the Bridge of Khazad-dum, Gandalf broke the Bridge and the Balrog fell into the depths, but Gandalf too was drawn into the abyss.
Both survived the fall, and Gandalf pursued the Balrog for eight days through the deepest caverns beneath Moria. At last they came to the Endless Stair, and climbed the steps that led to the peak of Zirakzigil. There Durin's Bane fought its last battle - for two days and nights, the Balrog battled with Gandalf, but at last it was cast from the peak, and broke the mountain-side as it plunged to its doom. It is important to note that there was no clear winner in this battle as Gandalf and The Balrog killed each other, however Gandalf was resurrected and sent back to Middle Earth as Gandalf the White and with greater powers.
Terra
~ The song that is irresistable ~
So I think SICK does what it does very well. I see it fulfilling a good niche which we needed a spell for. I used to use PS, and definitely SICK is more useful there. The only problem I have with the spell is the fact that it doesn't work on undead in any way, shape, or form.
I understand the statements that this isn't a Spell vs Spirit problem, but it's really a Spell vs Spirit with spirit manipulation problem. It's not a problem with the contest. It's a problem I have with the IC justification of the use of the contest in certain classes of spells.
Can you elaborate on the IC reasoning behind SICK not working on undead? This is the first spiritual manipulation has been explored since Chill Spirit -- which honestly didn't do anything beyond treat it as a second hitpoint pool.
It's always been implied by everything I've seen, read, etc in game that undead have a cursed spirit, not no spirit. Appraising them says they have a cursed spirit. Even the wording on SICK implies that the spirit is just foul, not that it doesn't exist. Can we instead be allowed to use SICK (and all upcoming living-only) spirit manipulation spells on undead if we cast uncurse on them first? It gives more of a use to uncurse which people feel is lacking too. I'm not sure that really is a solution though.
If we were talking about a spell which actually took their spirit and healed mine by using theirs, then I could understand a cursed spirit hurting my own. But purely for manipulating it?
As a somewhat side related matter, it would be really nice to be able to tell if something is 'cursed' or 'undead'. Skeletal things and non-corporeal things are pretty obvious from their description. I forget how (or if) we can tell apart things like basilisks (cursed) and shadow beasts (undead) -- at least, SICK works on basilisks but not shadow beasts.
Here's the failure messaging since someone asked:
You gesture at a Maelshyvean shadow beast.
With no living spirit to manipulate, the spell recoils upon you!
Your skin crawls at the clammy touch of your own magic.
Roundtime: 10 sec.
I understand the statements that this isn't a Spell vs Spirit problem, but it's really a Spell vs Spirit with spirit manipulation problem. It's not a problem with the contest. It's a problem I have with the IC justification of the use of the contest in certain classes of spells.
Can you elaborate on the IC reasoning behind SICK not working on undead? This is the first spiritual manipulation has been explored since Chill Spirit -- which honestly didn't do anything beyond treat it as a second hitpoint pool.
It's always been implied by everything I've seen, read, etc in game that undead have a cursed spirit, not no spirit. Appraising them says they have a cursed spirit. Even the wording on SICK implies that the spirit is just foul, not that it doesn't exist. Can we instead be allowed to use SICK (and all upcoming living-only) spirit manipulation spells on undead if we cast uncurse on them first? It gives more of a use to uncurse which people feel is lacking too. I'm not sure that really is a solution though.
If we were talking about a spell which actually took their spirit and healed mine by using theirs, then I could understand a cursed spirit hurting my own. But purely for manipulating it?
As a somewhat side related matter, it would be really nice to be able to tell if something is 'cursed' or 'undead'. Skeletal things and non-corporeal things are pretty obvious from their description. I forget how (or if) we can tell apart things like basilisks (cursed) and shadow beasts (undead) -- at least, SICK works on basilisks but not shadow beasts.
Here's the failure messaging since someone asked:
You gesture at a Maelshyvean shadow beast.
With no living spirit to manipulate, the spell recoils upon you!
Your skin crawls at the clammy touch of your own magic.
Roundtime: 10 sec.
While i've seen a lot of posts on sick i haven't seen many on SoS. but this bothers me.
Your magical senses tingle with a surge of power as you tap into the Holy mana about you.
You reach out with your senses and see softly shining streams of Holy energy coursing through the area.
You can sense that there is a bit less mana to the west.
You sense an extremely powerful Soul Shield enfolding your spirit.
You sense your Osrel Meraud spell linking you to a dim orb of shadows, which should last until you release it.
Roundtime: 8 seconds
>
Iljanos grins.
Iljanos gestures at you.
A lucent sphere glistens around you, enfolding your spirit anew.
Your magical senses tingle with a surge of power as you tap into the Holy mana about you.
You reach out with your senses and see softly shining streams of Holy energy coursing through the area.
You can sense that there is a bit less mana to the west.
You sense a very weak Soul Shield enfolding your spirit.
You sense your Osrel Meraud spell linking you to a dim orb of shadows, which should last until you release it.
Roundtime: 8 seconds
what good is a shield spell against spirit attacks that all you have to do to bypass it is snap cast a min prep shield on the person just before launching your real attack. And while I admit i'm looking at this from a CvC standpoint currently they are the only ones i've seen casting spirit attacks at me.
could we get this to stack rather than refresh?
Your magical senses tingle with a surge of power as you tap into the Holy mana about you.
You reach out with your senses and see softly shining streams of Holy energy coursing through the area.
You can sense that there is a bit less mana to the west.
You sense an extremely powerful Soul Shield enfolding your spirit.
You sense your Osrel Meraud spell linking you to a dim orb of shadows, which should last until you release it.
Roundtime: 8 seconds
>
Iljanos grins.
Iljanos gestures at you.
A lucent sphere glistens around you, enfolding your spirit anew.
Your magical senses tingle with a surge of power as you tap into the Holy mana about you.
You reach out with your senses and see softly shining streams of Holy energy coursing through the area.
You can sense that there is a bit less mana to the west.
You sense a very weak Soul Shield enfolding your spirit.
You sense your Osrel Meraud spell linking you to a dim orb of shadows, which should last until you release it.
Roundtime: 8 seconds
what good is a shield spell against spirit attacks that all you have to do to bypass it is snap cast a min prep shield on the person just before launching your real attack. And while I admit i'm looking at this from a CvC standpoint currently they are the only ones i've seen casting spirit attacks at me.
could we get this to stack rather than refresh?
Wow, I didn't notice that. Ouch.. ya, it should either stack, or not change anything at all.
But a capped SoS does an awesome job of reducing a capped SICK for the most part, still gets through but I think it's weakened considerably. However, if you well outclass your opponent.. capped SICK breaks through capped SoS and can still toss em to their knees.
But a capped SoS does an awesome job of reducing a capped SICK for the most part, still gets through but I think it's weakened considerably. However, if you well outclass your opponent.. capped SICK breaks through capped SoS and can still toss em to their knees.
That actually happens with a lot of refreshable buffs. I know during the DP war a lot of newbs were replacing Trop's capped buffs with their minimums.
Oh and I love this messaging:
>It suddenly drops to its knees before you. Praise Be'ort!
Too bad I try to only hunt undead because this spell seems great. Once I get into sparring I'll probably pick it up.
~Thilan
Oh and I love this messaging:
>It suddenly drops to its knees before you. Praise Be'ort!
Too bad I try to only hunt undead because this spell seems great. Once I get into sparring I'll probably pick it up.
~Thilan
After trying it a few times I really like SICK and would definitely get it if I hunted living. I'll probably get it shortly after I pick up HoT/FF for sparring.
I'd really like to see the messaging for cursed/undead changed to differentiate between the two. For example, here's casting SICK on a wind hound and a faenrae reaver:
You believe that the faenrae reaver is slightly battered.
>The faenrae reaver is cursed, and you believe that it has an incredible spirit that is healthy.
You believe that the wind hound is healthy.
>The wind hound is cursed, and you estimate that it has an incredible spirit that is healthy.
You gesture at a faenrae reaver.
With no living spirit to manipulate, the spell recoils upon you!
Your skin crawls at the clammy touch of your own magic.
Roundtime: 10 sec.
You gesture at a wind hound.
Slippery as an eel, a spiritual tendril creeps into its soul. The wind hound appears intensely distracted.
Roundtime: 1 sec.
Both have the same messaging about there being a spirit, so the undead reaver should be changed to something like "The faenrae reaver is undead, with a chilling maw where its spirit should be." Or if undead do indeed have some sort of spirit (one that spirit combat spells don't work on) then note it as undead rather than cursed and leave the spirit messaging. And if that is the case then hopefully we'll get some spells that work on undead spirits as well.
As far as SoS, while I understand spiritual combat is only just being re-released, it seems to be redundant with PFE since SICK is Holy magic and all other current spirit attacks come from cursed/undead creatures. PFE protects from all of the above and other types of attacks as well. Especially since barriers don't play well with each other right now, how do the two spells compare, i.e. where would you want to use SoS when PFE covers the same ground?
~Thilan
I'd really like to see the messaging for cursed/undead changed to differentiate between the two. For example, here's casting SICK on a wind hound and a faenrae reaver:
You believe that the faenrae reaver is slightly battered.
>The faenrae reaver is cursed, and you believe that it has an incredible spirit that is healthy.
You believe that the wind hound is healthy.
>The wind hound is cursed, and you estimate that it has an incredible spirit that is healthy.
You gesture at a faenrae reaver.
With no living spirit to manipulate, the spell recoils upon you!
Your skin crawls at the clammy touch of your own magic.
Roundtime: 10 sec.
You gesture at a wind hound.
Slippery as an eel, a spiritual tendril creeps into its soul. The wind hound appears intensely distracted.
Roundtime: 1 sec.
Both have the same messaging about there being a spirit, so the undead reaver should be changed to something like "The faenrae reaver is undead, with a chilling maw where its spirit should be." Or if undead do indeed have some sort of spirit (one that spirit combat spells don't work on) then note it as undead rather than cursed and leave the spirit messaging. And if that is the case then hopefully we'll get some spells that work on undead spirits as well.
As far as SoS, while I understand spiritual combat is only just being re-released, it seems to be redundant with PFE since SICK is Holy magic and all other current spirit attacks come from cursed/undead creatures. PFE protects from all of the above and other types of attacks as well. Especially since barriers don't play well with each other right now, how do the two spells compare, i.e. where would you want to use SoS when PFE covers the same ground?
~Thilan
HORN is great for learning tm while hunting, especially vs living (I prefer FF vs undead, more hits in one cast, seems to teach better for same mana, specially if swarmy room - I use 22 mana for both).
Sick is just awesome. Anyone near my circle I drop to knees with 25 second rt with 15 mana or less (have somewhat higher stats for circle though maybe, specially since my cleric is built specifically for disablers). Can't use on undead, definitely feel it's more a pvp tool.
Sick is just awesome. Anyone near my circle I drop to knees with 25 second rt with 15 mana or less (have somewhat higher stats for circle though maybe, specially since my cleric is built specifically for disablers). Can't use on undead, definitely feel it's more a pvp tool.
>>Not to mention SICK is probably the most effective stun in existence right now.... Who trains wisdom AND charisma?
All NMUs.
---
"Close your eyes -
For your eyes will only tell the truth..
And the truth isn't what you want to see.
In the dark, it is easy to pretend
That the truth is what it ought to be." - Erik Claudin
All NMUs.
---
"Close your eyes -
For your eyes will only tell the truth..
And the truth isn't what you want to see.
In the dark, it is easy to pretend
That the truth is what it ought to be." - Erik Claudin
