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<<Why is the burden of proof on you? Why wouldn't it be? Existing systems have lately been looked at by both players and staff with the questions of, "Does it currently and in the future make sense to have this working this way?". And the GMs still aren't done modifying existing systems. Going by your logic, none of these updates would have ever happened and no future ones will because no one would have ever questioned the existing systems.>>
Not true. I simply think that when the question "does it currently and in the future make sense to have this working this way?" is asked of unteachable transference the answer will be yes.
You seem to dismiss the past history with transference and the reasons for its implementation as obsolete and therefore inapplicable in this argument. I disagree and find it to be very relevant to the discussion for reasons I have laid out in previous posts.
<<To summarize why I feel trans should be teachable:>>
I'll respond to your points individually.
<< - I believe there is not a single logical justifiable reason that trans, given the current situation and based on announcements made by GMs of future developments for our guild, should continue to be non-teachable.>>
If you find specific fault with other reasons given please reply to them directly rather than simply dismiss them as illogical. Objectively speaking, I've found that side of the argument more logical and compelling than your own.
Further, I think announcements made by GMs and recent developments indicate a desire to give us more ways to learn transference via practice (bloodworms, shift, etc.). As Nynnia pointed out, it would likely be relatively easy to code teachable transference (especially in comparison to coding blood worms or shift). That they haven't I feel indicates their continued commitment to keeping transference a skill of practice rather than of teaching. That GMs are evaluating the state of the guild and tweaking learning is not sufficient reason to conclude transference should be teachable. As it's been pointed out, developing other methods of learning transference by practice, especially at the low circles you seem so concerned about, would have the same effect (of making transference learning "easier") yet adhere to past and current guild philosophy (that of making Empaths practice their primary skill).
<<- I believe that the problems that caused it to be put into the guild as a requirement would not be that bad of a problem today, given other, more viable ways of learning trans for older generations.>>
I'm not convinced of this. If I could sit and listen to a class in transference versus walk my ass to Muspar'i for some leech diving....well, I think the class is looking pretty damn attractive. Further, what exactly does "not be that bad of a problem" mean? That seems to imply it would be a problem of some measure. Frankly, even one person (okay two, one to teach and one to listen) slipping into past bad habits is too many for me.
<<- I believe it will have negligible impact on higher and mid level empaths, while providing an easier training and induction into the guild for the very low level empaths.>>
Why do you believe it would have negligible impact on higher empaths? Simply because of other methods of learning transference? Again, not convinced.
As far as easier training for low empaths, I think it would be more beneficial to develop methods of learning trans at low levels that would give the guild a "fun" factor for them. Perhaps (more viable when critter healing is live) some kind of museum or research area downstairs in the crossing guild...an exhibition of various creatures that young empaths could study. Or even something with the vela'tohr plant in the temple.
<< - I do not believe it will cut down on the amount of 'mules'.>>
Neither here nor there.
<< - I believe that the old systems DO need to be questioned as to whether they make sense or not.>>
Not a reason to make it teachable. I agree that the old should be evaluated periodically to make sure it still holds true. However, for reasons previously stated, I think it does still hold true in this case.
<<- I do not believe that trans is in any fashion or form comparable to Multi, as Trans is a primary skill required by one guild to learn, and Multi is not.>>
The relevance being? I think transference is unteachable for reasons that stand apart from anything to do with multi-op. I don't see taking the fact that they are different as reason for one or the other to suddenly be teachable. I wasn't aware that multi-op set the tone form unteachable skills in some way. If you are trying to make a point or other connection that I'm missing please clarify.
<<- I do not believe making it teachable will significantly cut down the number of empaths vs. number of wounded non-empaths seeking empathic assistance.>>
Where is your evidence for this? Or at the very least a reason why you think this.
~Maddie
Just wanted to add that with the people sleeping in the sitting room with a class, or listening to a class or whatever... I already see too much of it. I try to give people the benefit of the doubt, but the person in hiding all day in a class, or the unresponsive teacher for more than ten or fifteen minutes is too common a sight. It's unavoidable in any situation, but to allow all of our necessary skills to be teachable just makes this sight even more likely.
While I have faith that many empaths would not 'sleep' while listening to a class, I know I myself have been tempted to do so, or have sat there doing nothing, doing an assignment in front of the computer, only occasionally checking exp and doing mech lore or whatever had pulsed and needed practicing. Not something I'm proud of, but the temptation's there (and there's no one 'awake' to interact with, anyway), and I don't want to see it increased, especially for those too young to handle bloodsuckers.
The fact that we need teaching and scholarship, and more than most guilds (although less than some) is enough to drive people to zombify themselves. Like I said, I have faith that not everyone would do this, but add another skill that one could listen to in dreamland....
Well, in other words, I too, think that the history of slumber party in the sitting room is still applicable. But tell me what you think.
-Vinser
While I have faith that many empaths would not 'sleep' while listening to a class, I know I myself have been tempted to do so, or have sat there doing nothing, doing an assignment in front of the computer, only occasionally checking exp and doing mech lore or whatever had pulsed and needed practicing. Not something I'm proud of, but the temptation's there (and there's no one 'awake' to interact with, anyway), and I don't want to see it increased, especially for those too young to handle bloodsuckers.
The fact that we need teaching and scholarship, and more than most guilds (although less than some) is enough to drive people to zombify themselves. Like I said, I have faith that not everyone would do this, but add another skill that one could listen to in dreamland....
Well, in other words, I too, think that the history of slumber party in the sitting room is still applicable. But tell me what you think.
-Vinser
<<Is it the train of thought, "I had it hard, so it's not fair that others should have it easier"?>>
Xoine,
That isn't it. Although, I can say it is much easier today learning transference than it was before with learning teaching, so newer empaths already have it easier in that regards.
What is harder is that, if you have only a little transference, you will have an extremely hard time trying to sucessfully heal someone. It's a bit frustrating, which is why some have suggested no healing until some later time and an alternative means to practicing tranference (not listening passively to a teacher).
Either way, currently first circle empath can learn enough transference for 2nd long before learning all the other skills. By 5th, it is likely it is something like teaching holding her back from circling, not tranference.
I'm sorry, though... I digressed a bit.
Anyhow, the reason teaching transference shouldn't happen is we should practice it to learn it...or we'll end up where we were before transference...and all the conflict and frustration and "bad blood" (couldn't resist) in the guild would be in vain. Well, it's in vain anyways.
Still, I'm against it being taught. It's not that hard to learn at the lower levels...and relatively, it is due some fixes just in how it's learned in practice. Making it teachable isn't really a fix.
Thanks for your thoughts,
Amo
_____________________________________________ "Can you even dye my eyes to match my gown?" ~Dorothy
For more information on empaths who shift, go to:
http://www.coalition.fairmount.nu
Xoine,
That isn't it. Although, I can say it is much easier today learning transference than it was before with learning teaching, so newer empaths already have it easier in that regards.
What is harder is that, if you have only a little transference, you will have an extremely hard time trying to sucessfully heal someone. It's a bit frustrating, which is why some have suggested no healing until some later time and an alternative means to practicing tranference (not listening passively to a teacher).
Either way, currently first circle empath can learn enough transference for 2nd long before learning all the other skills. By 5th, it is likely it is something like teaching holding her back from circling, not tranference.
I'm sorry, though... I digressed a bit.
Anyhow, the reason teaching transference shouldn't happen is we should practice it to learn it...or we'll end up where we were before transference...and all the conflict and frustration and "bad blood" (couldn't resist) in the guild would be in vain. Well, it's in vain anyways.
Still, I'm against it being taught. It's not that hard to learn at the lower levels...and relatively, it is due some fixes just in how it's learned in practice. Making it teachable isn't really a fix.
Thanks for your thoughts,
Amo
_____________________________________________ "Can you even dye my eyes to match my gown?" ~Dorothy
For more information on empaths who shift, go to:
http://www.coalition.fairmount.nu
>Babs and Shaunn are right. The alternative to empaths is herbs.
I think people are ignoring a second important alternative to empaths: dying.
Ok, so maybe I'm only partly serious, but whenever anyone brings up the 'There are no auto-clerics' argument someone always responds with 'But I can just depart.' Sure dying isn't an attractive alternative to finding an empath, but neither is just departing.
And yes, I know you have scars and everything, but you've still got herbs for those, or you can wait until you find an empath.
~Y
*Your witty comment here.* http://www.coalition.fairmont.nu
I think people are ignoring a second important alternative to empaths: dying.
Ok, so maybe I'm only partly serious, but whenever anyone brings up the 'There are no auto-clerics' argument someone always responds with 'But I can just depart.' Sure dying isn't an attractive alternative to finding an empath, but neither is just departing.
And yes, I know you have scars and everything, but you've still got herbs for those, or you can wait until you find an empath.
~Y
*Your witty comment here.* http://www.coalition.fairmont.nu
<<Empaths heal and everyone else hunts. That's the trade-off you take when you join the guild. Now, picture a young barbarian, having to spend 10 circles studying anatomy charts so he could kill critters.>>>
Your point is well heard, Grasi. There is difficulty in comparing empaths to barbs, though. No one rolls up a mule barb... well, maybe they do...don't see it often, though.
As a paladin, i really wanted to glyph people....there is a several circle wait on that. As a cleric, (back in the day), I really wanted to raise....that was 20 or 21 circles, depending.
Healing should still be fun even at the upper ends of the circle tier. It is, too, actually... I really miss those rushes of healing people and struggling to keep everyone alive and healthy. Trying to communicate over the rush and the noise. I remember running all over the place in answer to a gweth call for help. I remember "prepping" dead bodies for resurrection and how fun that was, too... I want that back more than anything, really.
But it's unlikely it will come back...what the above depends on is nonexistant now. So many things have been redesigned in game...and so many attitudes have evolved.
Nonetheless, something equally fun, although different, may come out of more redesigning and evolving.
We can't go by the old anymore. Things are new and we need to be new in response.
Amo
_____________________________________________ "Can you even dye my eyes to match my gown?" ~Dorothy
For more information on empaths who shift, go to:
http://www.coalition.fairmount.nu
Your point is well heard, Grasi. There is difficulty in comparing empaths to barbs, though. No one rolls up a mule barb... well, maybe they do...don't see it often, though.
As a paladin, i really wanted to glyph people....there is a several circle wait on that. As a cleric, (back in the day), I really wanted to raise....that was 20 or 21 circles, depending.
Healing should still be fun even at the upper ends of the circle tier. It is, too, actually... I really miss those rushes of healing people and struggling to keep everyone alive and healthy. Trying to communicate over the rush and the noise. I remember running all over the place in answer to a gweth call for help. I remember "prepping" dead bodies for resurrection and how fun that was, too... I want that back more than anything, really.
But it's unlikely it will come back...what the above depends on is nonexistant now. So many things have been redesigned in game...and so many attitudes have evolved.
Nonetheless, something equally fun, although different, may come out of more redesigning and evolving.
We can't go by the old anymore. Things are new and we need to be new in response.
Amo
_____________________________________________ "Can you even dye my eyes to match my gown?" ~Dorothy
For more information on empaths who shift, go to:
http://www.coalition.fairmount.nu
I don't feel that transferrance should be taught either. Not becuase I don't want others to have it easy, but because it takes the challenge out of it. I one can sit in a room and listen to a class on trans, when in RL they are making themselves lunch or reading as book, that defeats the purpose of the game.
I must admit that having only a single way to learn it while still a low level Emapth (I'm on 13'th circle) it VERY frustrating. It forces us to sit in the guild all day and do nothing but heal others. (Which barley gets me enough trans at all anymore forcing me to sit there even LONGER)
I LOVE healing others, or I wouldn't have become an Empath. But I'm also Elothian, and I thirst for knowledge and experience in many other things as well, and sitting in the guild all day makes me crazy.
I must admit that having only a single way to learn it while still a low level Emapth (I'm on 13'th circle) it VERY frustrating. It forces us to sit in the guild all day and do nothing but heal others. (Which barley gets me enough trans at all anymore forcing me to sit there even LONGER)
I LOVE healing others, or I wouldn't have become an Empath. But I'm also Elothian, and I thirst for knowledge and experience in many other things as well, and sitting in the guild all day makes me crazy.
>I must admit that having only a single way to learn it while still a low level Emapth (I'm on 13'th circle) it VERY frustrating. It forces us to sit in the guild all day and do nothing but heal others.
Fortunately, you joined the guild when there is -more- than a single way to learn transference. It doesn't replace healing other adventurer's.. but is sure helps your own wanderlust. <g>
Xochi
Fortunately, you joined the guild when there is -more- than a single way to learn transference. It doesn't replace healing other adventurer's.. but is sure helps your own wanderlust. <g>
Xochi
