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You know I was going to say some stuff, but at this point it seems pretty much everything I was thinking has been said.
A few minor things though.
Could Towint's post be moved back to healing systems, since it has healing system related information in it?
Regardless of whether teaching becomes teachable or not (and I must admit, I'm leaning towards no. The no's have been far more convincing in this thread than the yes's) could we take a look again at making it linkable? Realistically, it doesn't teach enough that anyone would consider just sitting around linked in transference instead of learning it. Or alternatively would it be possible to remove the learning from link just for transference. Maybe, like Glee (<grin> Hi Glee!) says it's just too personal to actually learn any from other people's experiences (but not so personal you can't temporarily gain new insights. I don't know, it's just a thought.)
~Y
Shamlessness Unplugged. http://www.coalition.fairmont.nu
>> Every other guild is finding it easier and easier to learn. Why should the Empath Guild be any different?
I don't think the Moon Mages would agree with that. It is getting easier to advance in the empath guild. Making it easier to advance does not have to include making transference teachable. We have alternate means of earning transference skill, that makes it easier. Teaching and First Aid requirements have been reduced, that too makes it easier. How easy advancement should be is a matter of opinion not an absolute right or wrong.
>> Please, those who are against transferrence being teachable, provide us with a viable and justifiable reason why you believe it shouldn't even be considered by the GMs.
I would hope that the GMs consider everything, even disbanding the guild entirely. I don't think they should do that, but consider it, sure. Nothing should ever be totally barred from consideration.
>> - I do not believe that trans is in any fashion or form comparable to Multi, as Trans is a primary skill required by one guild to learn, and Multi is not.
I believe Multi is a required skill for Barbarians.
>> Transference was the only skill that required us to go out and do anything, even if it was healing everyone in sight on a post-wall rank.
I think that is the key. A Paladin can be taught Armor, but if he doesn't go fight he isn't going to get weapons, shield, and evasion, and he will only learn one armor. He will not become an effective fighter. He could listen to classes on all those subjects but it would take forever to get enough in each skill to move up the critter ladder. Note, I am not talking about circling, but about becoming able. An empath could sit and listen to transference, powercast, and become very effective as a basic healer.
>> Our problem really isn't with the difficulty of the transference skill. Our problem is that that skill has way too much emphisis in our requirements. If empaths had a broadened scope so that other skills mattered more to us, then it transference being learned easily wouldn't seem like such a problem. Instead we just lump all the work involved in circling into 6 ranks of a single skill.
I think it would remain a problem because all our skill requirements are risk free and can be practiced within a few rooms. You don't have to go far for transference either but at least you do have to either interact and face minimal danger.
I too don't quite get why anyone wants transference to be teachable. Because other guilds have mainly teachable skills? I don't see that as a reason. Perhaps it is that other guilds should have more unteachable skills. But, what other guilds do or don't do really doesn't matter as each guild is a unique mix of requirements, strengths and weaknesses. I do believe there needs to be some balance between guilds and the circling rate discrepency did get too large. But, each guild's difficulties should be evaluated and solutions designed that are tailored to that guild. Leeches are a good example of that. Shift is an even better one.
I have tried training up new empaths too. Frustrating, but no more so than when I started, about equally just for different reasons. If the goal is to reduce frustration I don't think making transference teachable will help. It will only clash with getting the teaching requirement. It will increase the expectation that young empaths just listen instead of trying to heal adventurers.
Rather than making transferance teachable I much prefer the idea of the ability to heal being raised to a 10th circle ability along with providing another means of learning transference such as the "sandbox" idea. Allowing vitality to be transfered works for me too. This would mean by the time an empath could heal they would be more proficient at it so less frustrated. Their transference rate would be faster, they could keep links open better, and would have higher magic skills. With alchemy on the way they could put more effort into learning that as well.
Someone said players who join the guild because they want to heal folk would give up. I don't see why. Tenth circle isn't very high at all. Lots of adventurers are motivated to fight for the treasure. I am sure rat pelts doesn't qualify to them. They know the first ten circles of any guild are just getting the basics under your belt. I know that I myself wouldn't see it that way. I would set my sights on 10th circle as a goal and feel rewarded in getting there. It would also reduce the frustration of links with patients breaking and taking forever to heal down so I could finish healing someone. I would have all the healing spells by the time I could transfer wounds, so wouldn't be stuck only partially healing patients.
In conclusion, I don't see how allowing transference to be teachable would benefit the guild in a manner that cannot be better met through other solutions. If the "problem" being addressed is that you think it is too hard to learn transference, there are other ways to solve that issue. If the issue is simply, other guilds can so why shouldn't we, then I don't consider that a good reason to change it. Other guilds can do a lot of things we can't and vice versa.
Dellica
I don't think the Moon Mages would agree with that. It is getting easier to advance in the empath guild. Making it easier to advance does not have to include making transference teachable. We have alternate means of earning transference skill, that makes it easier. Teaching and First Aid requirements have been reduced, that too makes it easier. How easy advancement should be is a matter of opinion not an absolute right or wrong.
>> Please, those who are against transferrence being teachable, provide us with a viable and justifiable reason why you believe it shouldn't even be considered by the GMs.
I would hope that the GMs consider everything, even disbanding the guild entirely. I don't think they should do that, but consider it, sure. Nothing should ever be totally barred from consideration.
>> - I do not believe that trans is in any fashion or form comparable to Multi, as Trans is a primary skill required by one guild to learn, and Multi is not.
I believe Multi is a required skill for Barbarians.
>> Transference was the only skill that required us to go out and do anything, even if it was healing everyone in sight on a post-wall rank.
I think that is the key. A Paladin can be taught Armor, but if he doesn't go fight he isn't going to get weapons, shield, and evasion, and he will only learn one armor. He will not become an effective fighter. He could listen to classes on all those subjects but it would take forever to get enough in each skill to move up the critter ladder. Note, I am not talking about circling, but about becoming able. An empath could sit and listen to transference, powercast, and become very effective as a basic healer.
>> Our problem really isn't with the difficulty of the transference skill. Our problem is that that skill has way too much emphisis in our requirements. If empaths had a broadened scope so that other skills mattered more to us, then it transference being learned easily wouldn't seem like such a problem. Instead we just lump all the work involved in circling into 6 ranks of a single skill.
I think it would remain a problem because all our skill requirements are risk free and can be practiced within a few rooms. You don't have to go far for transference either but at least you do have to either interact and face minimal danger.
I too don't quite get why anyone wants transference to be teachable. Because other guilds have mainly teachable skills? I don't see that as a reason. Perhaps it is that other guilds should have more unteachable skills. But, what other guilds do or don't do really doesn't matter as each guild is a unique mix of requirements, strengths and weaknesses. I do believe there needs to be some balance between guilds and the circling rate discrepency did get too large. But, each guild's difficulties should be evaluated and solutions designed that are tailored to that guild. Leeches are a good example of that. Shift is an even better one.
I have tried training up new empaths too. Frustrating, but no more so than when I started, about equally just for different reasons. If the goal is to reduce frustration I don't think making transference teachable will help. It will only clash with getting the teaching requirement. It will increase the expectation that young empaths just listen instead of trying to heal adventurers.
Rather than making transferance teachable I much prefer the idea of the ability to heal being raised to a 10th circle ability along with providing another means of learning transference such as the "sandbox" idea. Allowing vitality to be transfered works for me too. This would mean by the time an empath could heal they would be more proficient at it so less frustrated. Their transference rate would be faster, they could keep links open better, and would have higher magic skills. With alchemy on the way they could put more effort into learning that as well.
Someone said players who join the guild because they want to heal folk would give up. I don't see why. Tenth circle isn't very high at all. Lots of adventurers are motivated to fight for the treasure. I am sure rat pelts doesn't qualify to them. They know the first ten circles of any guild are just getting the basics under your belt. I know that I myself wouldn't see it that way. I would set my sights on 10th circle as a goal and feel rewarded in getting there. It would also reduce the frustration of links with patients breaking and taking forever to heal down so I could finish healing someone. I would have all the healing spells by the time I could transfer wounds, so wouldn't be stuck only partially healing patients.
In conclusion, I don't see how allowing transference to be teachable would benefit the guild in a manner that cannot be better met through other solutions. If the "problem" being addressed is that you think it is too hard to learn transference, there are other ways to solve that issue. If the issue is simply, other guilds can so why shouldn't we, then I don't consider that a good reason to change it. Other guilds can do a lot of things we can't and vice versa.
Dellica
