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I'm collecting feedback on the assorted TM spells we have. Which do you like, which do you not like and why. This thread is for the Empath spells:
Paralysis
Guardian Spirit
Strange Arrow
Feel free to comment on both the mechanics and the messaging since messaging is a big part of what makes TM spells what they are. Since the Empath list is so staggeringly long, feel free to discuss what (if any!) direction you'd like to see us take future Empath TM spells.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
GS: It's hard to complain about the current GS when it was so underpowered for years in 2.0. It has different stances that noticeably effect how it fights, and being able to set its behavior is helpful as well. I don't see many people making use of the TAUNT feature, but it's pretty brilliant and I love it.
The drinking star is one of my favorite things. Love the messaging and effect.
I find it somewhat frustrating that I can't use CAST CREATURE with my own GS out (I hit it with NB, and it goes away, oops). Since creatures can be manipulated, on my GS, or on other people they aren't always facing me which makes cast creature very useful for hitting things. Often I have three creatures, one on my GS and two fighting themselves, so I technically have nothing on me. Heck, I'd even spend points on a magic feat to make my GS immune to my own cast creature if it was available. I currently have worked out a couple of solutions to this, but cast creature not effecting the GS or a GS being immune to at least NB (our only guild-AOE spell) would make combat with one out less complicated.
It would be nice if it had some messaging when VIGOR wears off on it. We can't perceive the GS to know if it still has it on (we're not moon mages) and I have to sort of guess on the duration since it's on someone else.
Training TM via the GS alone is often a bit slow, I tend to need to almost underhunt with it on non-constructs to be able to mindlock TM. (Compared to other casters at similar skill levels and creatures.) Throwing a paralyze out every once and awhile moves the experience along decently between the two.
That being said, I'm not fond of the fact you can't use weapon bonding potions on weapons to give the GS. I suspect there are Very Good Reasons for this, but I still don't like it.
There's also a BUG which has never been fixed with the armors the GS gets - they appraise as the wrong type of armor (for the plat and chain). No idea if that actually effects the armor's effectiveness or anything, probably just cosmetic.
Paralysis: This is a pretty odd duck for a spell (being just about the only non-damaging TM). I tend to use it a little, but not very often. I have experimented with trying to train TM with this spell alone, and it seems to do fairly well exp wise, provided you are casting it only on creatures which aren't currently already paralyzed. The duration seems pretty nice on the immobilize for the amount of mana you put in. When a creature is also debuffed with LETH and BURDEN knock them down can be a lot of fun, but I find NB is easier and more efficient to use for that purpose.
STRA: Being the only non-sorcery and non-pet damaging TM spell we have access to, it gets a lot on constructs. However, it does puncture/electrical which isn't brilliant for that use considering many constructs are seemingly resistant to those types of damage.
We could probably use some sort of damaging TM, but I am not sure that really fits in with us thematically.
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
The drinking star is one of my favorite things. Love the messaging and effect.
I find it somewhat frustrating that I can't use CAST CREATURE with my own GS out (I hit it with NB, and it goes away, oops). Since creatures can be manipulated, on my GS, or on other people they aren't always facing me which makes cast creature very useful for hitting things. Often I have three creatures, one on my GS and two fighting themselves, so I technically have nothing on me. Heck, I'd even spend points on a magic feat to make my GS immune to my own cast creature if it was available. I currently have worked out a couple of solutions to this, but cast creature not effecting the GS or a GS being immune to at least NB (our only guild-AOE spell) would make combat with one out less complicated.
It would be nice if it had some messaging when VIGOR wears off on it. We can't perceive the GS to know if it still has it on (we're not moon mages) and I have to sort of guess on the duration since it's on someone else.
Training TM via the GS alone is often a bit slow, I tend to need to almost underhunt with it on non-constructs to be able to mindlock TM. (Compared to other casters at similar skill levels and creatures.) Throwing a paralyze out every once and awhile moves the experience along decently between the two.
That being said, I'm not fond of the fact you can't use weapon bonding potions on weapons to give the GS. I suspect there are Very Good Reasons for this, but I still don't like it.
There's also a BUG which has never been fixed with the armors the GS gets - they appraise as the wrong type of armor (for the plat and chain). No idea if that actually effects the armor's effectiveness or anything, probably just cosmetic.
Paralysis: This is a pretty odd duck for a spell (being just about the only non-damaging TM). I tend to use it a little, but not very often. I have experimented with trying to train TM with this spell alone, and it seems to do fairly well exp wise, provided you are casting it only on creatures which aren't currently already paralyzed. The duration seems pretty nice on the immobilize for the amount of mana you put in. When a creature is also debuffed with LETH and BURDEN knock them down can be a lot of fun, but I find NB is easier and more efficient to use for that purpose.
STRA: Being the only non-sorcery and non-pet damaging TM spell we have access to, it gets a lot on constructs. However, it does puncture/electrical which isn't brilliant for that use considering many constructs are seemingly resistant to those types of damage.
We could probably use some sort of damaging TM, but I am not sure that really fits in with us thematically.
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
It's a little hard to give much meaningful feedback when my TM is still so far behind my other combat skills, but I'll give it a shot.
Paralysis:
This is a pretty neat spell and the way to train TM as an Empath, since GS doesn't do much on that front. It's really quite accurate (though the accuracy did decrease a little when 3.1 went live, unfortunately), which helps to make up for the skill shortage to some degree. Not sure it's especially necessary as a crowd-control tool when NB is so massively awesome, but on the other hand Paralysis works on undead now, so there's that. It's probably better for that if your skill isn't so lacking (surprise, I know!). I like it though.
Guardian Spirit:
The adjustments it saw for 3.1 helped it along quite a bit, but the mana cost on it is pretty rough. Casting high makes it more powerful (or less weak if we're talking about lower than mid-power), but good luck keeping it around very long if you do that. I haven't checked recently to see if that bug with cambrinth has been fixed yet though (the one where it stops honoring the number of mana you tell it to pull from cyclics as soon as you recharge it at all); if it has then it might be more plausible to sustain a higher-power cyclic. I think this spell would benefit from a slightly lower maximum mana level since its mission in life is to be sustained for long periods (same with AD for that matter), as opposed to a cyclic like Regenerate whose usefulness comes in shorter bursts. Or maybe the pulse frequency for GS could be lowered some instead...does a pulse even mean anything for this spell as far as effects go?
GS does a very poor job of awarding experience by itself, even against enemies that pose a pretty good challenge for the warrior. Maybe it's just not killing them fast enough or something; I seem to recall that most of the experience comes from the killing blow. That's not very intuitive though, as it means you'd need to have your warrior under-hunt in order to learn well when the opposite is true for everything else.
Strange Arrow:
I'm pretty sure I've cast this spell exactly twice, and that was during the initial 3.0 testing just to make sure TM interacted with Shock correctly. Since I don't make a habit of finding some harmlessly low-level construct to backtrain TM on, I have no feedback on this one.
Thanks,
-Life Sustainer Karthor
Paralysis:
This is a pretty neat spell and the way to train TM as an Empath, since GS doesn't do much on that front. It's really quite accurate (though the accuracy did decrease a little when 3.1 went live, unfortunately), which helps to make up for the skill shortage to some degree. Not sure it's especially necessary as a crowd-control tool when NB is so massively awesome, but on the other hand Paralysis works on undead now, so there's that. It's probably better for that if your skill isn't so lacking (surprise, I know!). I like it though.
Guardian Spirit:
The adjustments it saw for 3.1 helped it along quite a bit, but the mana cost on it is pretty rough. Casting high makes it more powerful (or less weak if we're talking about lower than mid-power), but good luck keeping it around very long if you do that. I haven't checked recently to see if that bug with cambrinth has been fixed yet though (the one where it stops honoring the number of mana you tell it to pull from cyclics as soon as you recharge it at all); if it has then it might be more plausible to sustain a higher-power cyclic. I think this spell would benefit from a slightly lower maximum mana level since its mission in life is to be sustained for long periods (same with AD for that matter), as opposed to a cyclic like Regenerate whose usefulness comes in shorter bursts. Or maybe the pulse frequency for GS could be lowered some instead...does a pulse even mean anything for this spell as far as effects go?
GS does a very poor job of awarding experience by itself, even against enemies that pose a pretty good challenge for the warrior. Maybe it's just not killing them fast enough or something; I seem to recall that most of the experience comes from the killing blow. That's not very intuitive though, as it means you'd need to have your warrior under-hunt in order to learn well when the opposite is true for everything else.
Strange Arrow:
I'm pretty sure I've cast this spell exactly twice, and that was during the initial 3.0 testing just to make sure TM interacted with Shock correctly. Since I don't make a habit of finding some harmlessly low-level construct to backtrain TM on, I have no feedback on this one.
Thanks,
-Life Sustainer Karthor
Paralysis:
My TM is roughly on par with my other defenses, and paralysis is definitely the way to train TM. However, the actual functionality overlaps with NB, and in a crowd control situation, NB is the tool I'll pick almost every time (barring undead). You don't have to worry about aim time (I don't have the shortening feat), and as a battle spell NB's prep time is faster. NB also has the advantage of knocking anything it affects to the ground, whereas Paralysis usually does (at min prep), but not always. The flip side is that I'm not sure what else could be done to distinguish it without making it damaging and therefore much more of a niche spell -- with the side effect of making TM almost impossible to train.
GS:
I love GS, but as Karthor noted, the mana cost is pretty high. The slow attacks mean it's not a great way to train TM, so I usually forego GS and use manipulate and focus on casting Paralyze. It's a little idiosyncratic, but as far as training goes, manipulate + paralyze is the equation that works best for me because my combats and lores are roughly equal. I can work TM, combats and lock empathy if I manipulate, but TM and empathy fall by the wayside if I use GS, as well as the high mana cost hindering my ability to train debilitation.
Reading over what I wrote makes it sound like Guardian Spirit is a useless spell, which it's not. I do love the spell. I used it on the Barrier quest, and I've used it invasions, I just have to be sure to have cambrinth dedicated to it. It has its place, it's just not something I use as often as other Empath abilities and spells.
Strange Arrow:
I can't really comment much on this one. I learned it after the preview ended because I do use it on constructs, but I don't hunt constructs enough to really have an opinion and the constructs I do hunt to train weapons are too low for me to assess how they train my TM. But, as noted by GamerGirl, for the amount of juice I'm able to pump into STRA and the way I outrank the constructs I'm fighting, it seems to do relatively little damage.
If I could make a couple of suggestions, I'd ask you guys to take another look at the mana cost of GS and to consider adding a damaging TM spell that's more effective against constructs. It would be nice for Paralyze to have a way to really distinguish itself from NB, but I'm pretty happy with the spell as it is now.
My TM is roughly on par with my other defenses, and paralysis is definitely the way to train TM. However, the actual functionality overlaps with NB, and in a crowd control situation, NB is the tool I'll pick almost every time (barring undead). You don't have to worry about aim time (I don't have the shortening feat), and as a battle spell NB's prep time is faster. NB also has the advantage of knocking anything it affects to the ground, whereas Paralysis usually does (at min prep), but not always. The flip side is that I'm not sure what else could be done to distinguish it without making it damaging and therefore much more of a niche spell -- with the side effect of making TM almost impossible to train.
GS:
I love GS, but as Karthor noted, the mana cost is pretty high. The slow attacks mean it's not a great way to train TM, so I usually forego GS and use manipulate and focus on casting Paralyze. It's a little idiosyncratic, but as far as training goes, manipulate + paralyze is the equation that works best for me because my combats and lores are roughly equal. I can work TM, combats and lock empathy if I manipulate, but TM and empathy fall by the wayside if I use GS, as well as the high mana cost hindering my ability to train debilitation.
Reading over what I wrote makes it sound like Guardian Spirit is a useless spell, which it's not. I do love the spell. I used it on the Barrier quest, and I've used it invasions, I just have to be sure to have cambrinth dedicated to it. It has its place, it's just not something I use as often as other Empath abilities and spells.
Strange Arrow:
I can't really comment much on this one. I learned it after the preview ended because I do use it on constructs, but I don't hunt constructs enough to really have an opinion and the constructs I do hunt to train weapons are too low for me to assess how they train my TM. But, as noted by GamerGirl, for the amount of juice I'm able to pump into STRA and the way I outrank the constructs I'm fighting, it seems to do relatively little damage.
If I could make a couple of suggestions, I'd ask you guys to take another look at the mana cost of GS and to consider adding a damaging TM spell that's more effective against constructs. It would be nice for Paralyze to have a way to really distinguish itself from NB, but I'm pretty happy with the spell as it is now.
My Empaths TM is on par with my combats, and I've actually enjoyed the crap out of hunting with him for various reasons.
I was training TM with Paralyze, which was not easy or fun or effective. For young Empaths it's super duper crappy in fact, doubly so because it doesn't contribute towards a kill. I understand that GS is no introductory spell, but making it esoteric means Empaths have no real way of killing non-constructs, many of which cannot be skinned, until ~160 or so ranks of magic, which is a bit of a drag for new empaths. As a support spell, I think it's pretty great though, so if you can find a hunting partner for the first ~150 ranks of combats, you're set.
GS is great, and I second being able to perceive Vigor on them. Maybe have it show up in the Empaths appraisal? Maybe in a TOUCH? I also second being able to interact with your GSs equipment in more a more comprehesive manner; perhaps allowing some form of GS healing, and make a GS more akin to what Risen are supposed to be, wherein you have one and it's the same one each time it's summoned?
I also agree that the mana cost is fairly prohibitive, but I'm not sure that's something that needs to change significantly. My Empath can only put up 9 mana GSs if I want to be able to cast lethargy on critters, so maybe GS cycles too quickly, maybe my magics are just too low still. The TM learning from the GS seems slow but reasonable given how passive it is, and around 200ish ranks, are moving nicely still in elder brocket deer. I would like to use Paralyze to compliment the GS, but I absolutely don't have enough attunement to do so. I am curious to see where the bell curve for '100% GS power' is centered, 10 mana, 12?
As a suggestion, I would like to see more interactions with the GS, since it is such a central part of Empath hunting. The TAUNT is nice, but more combat actions would be a lot of fun. Maybe an AoE attack. Maybe have it guard someone. Maybe things that allow syngeristic hunting with the Empath to be improved (a special attack if the Empath is grappled to the critter the GS is facing, for example). I'd like to see more non-damaging tactics maneuvers in general because of my Empath, but understand that's a separate issue.
I haven't used strange arrow on my Empath at all really, since I don't hunt constructs. STRA is a totally find TM spell for what it does, and is/was a mainstay on my Necromancer.
I was training TM with Paralyze, which was not easy or fun or effective. For young Empaths it's super duper crappy in fact, doubly so because it doesn't contribute towards a kill. I understand that GS is no introductory spell, but making it esoteric means Empaths have no real way of killing non-constructs, many of which cannot be skinned, until ~160 or so ranks of magic, which is a bit of a drag for new empaths. As a support spell, I think it's pretty great though, so if you can find a hunting partner for the first ~150 ranks of combats, you're set.
GS is great, and I second being able to perceive Vigor on them. Maybe have it show up in the Empaths appraisal? Maybe in a TOUCH? I also second being able to interact with your GSs equipment in more a more comprehesive manner; perhaps allowing some form of GS healing, and make a GS more akin to what Risen are supposed to be, wherein you have one and it's the same one each time it's summoned?
I also agree that the mana cost is fairly prohibitive, but I'm not sure that's something that needs to change significantly. My Empath can only put up 9 mana GSs if I want to be able to cast lethargy on critters, so maybe GS cycles too quickly, maybe my magics are just too low still. The TM learning from the GS seems slow but reasonable given how passive it is, and around 200ish ranks, are moving nicely still in elder brocket deer. I would like to use Paralyze to compliment the GS, but I absolutely don't have enough attunement to do so. I am curious to see where the bell curve for '100% GS power' is centered, 10 mana, 12?
As a suggestion, I would like to see more interactions with the GS, since it is such a central part of Empath hunting. The TAUNT is nice, but more combat actions would be a lot of fun. Maybe an AoE attack. Maybe have it guard someone. Maybe things that allow syngeristic hunting with the Empath to be improved (a special attack if the Empath is grappled to the critter the GS is facing, for example). I'd like to see more non-damaging tactics maneuvers in general because of my Empath, but understand that's a separate issue.
I haven't used strange arrow on my Empath at all really, since I don't hunt constructs. STRA is a totally find TM spell for what it does, and is/was a mainstay on my Necromancer.
I have an empath in prime I've gotten to around 90, and I've recently started on in plat who's around 30.
The plat empath is an interesting contrast because with manipulate available out of the gate, I've been able to work in combat early on without having to wait to have GS. His TM and Debil are actually on par and a little above a couple of other magics. Lethargy and Paralysis have been good trainers. They also help with crowd control and suvivability. When bobcats then snowbeasts were tearing him up with more than one, I was able to use a combination of the two spells to make 4 of them on me survivable. It also helps the manipulated one kill faster.
So, I like Lethargy and Paralysis. They work well.
I haven't started working with constructs much yet in plat, and in prime I was more prone to simply beat on them. So I can't much comment on STRA.
That all being said, I'd certainly welcome more of either sort of spell which help out in combat but don't cause shock.
The plat empath is an interesting contrast because with manipulate available out of the gate, I've been able to work in combat early on without having to wait to have GS. His TM and Debil are actually on par and a little above a couple of other magics. Lethargy and Paralysis have been good trainers. They also help with crowd control and suvivability. When bobcats then snowbeasts were tearing him up with more than one, I was able to use a combination of the two spells to make 4 of them on me survivable. It also helps the manipulated one kill faster.
So, I like Lethargy and Paralysis. They work well.
I haven't started working with constructs much yet in plat, and in prime I was more prone to simply beat on them. So I can't much comment on STRA.
That all being said, I'd certainly welcome more of either sort of spell which help out in combat but don't cause shock.
>>CAST CREATURE with my own GS out
This is a bug. I'm currently in the middle of an international move, but it's fairly high up on my list of things to deal with when stuff settles down a bit.
There are actually a number of Empath bugs that I need to address, my focus has just been on Guildfest, and then moving, but they're still on my radar. Make sure you submit a BUG report along with forum posts so I can't just forget about them, though.
And now back to your regularly-scheduled TM feedback.
Melete
Nature, it seems, is the popular name
for milliards and milliards and milliards
of particles playing their infinite game
of billiards and billiards and billiards.
This is a bug. I'm currently in the middle of an international move, but it's fairly high up on my list of things to deal with when stuff settles down a bit.
There are actually a number of Empath bugs that I need to address, my focus has just been on Guildfest, and then moving, but they're still on my radar. Make sure you submit a BUG report along with forum posts so I can't just forget about them, though.
And now back to your regularly-scheduled TM feedback.
Melete
Nature, it seems, is the popular name
for milliards and milliards and milliards
of particles playing their infinite game
of billiards and billiards and billiards.
>>>>CAST CREATURE with my own GS out
>>This is a bug. I'm currently in the middle of an international move, but it's fairly high up on my list of things to deal with when stuff settles down a bit.
You just made my day. Seriously, so happy to hear this is a BUG (I was told this was just a 3.1 change I had to adjust to)! Good luck with the move.
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
>>This is a bug. I'm currently in the middle of an international move, but it's fairly high up on my list of things to deal with when stuff settles down a bit.
You just made my day. Seriously, so happy to hear this is a BUG (I was told this was just a 3.1 change I had to adjust to)! Good luck with the move.
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
My character is primarily a combat Empath, so this topic is of great interest to me, but I am going to hold off on posting feedback until I get more of a chance to hunt in 3.1.
"Empathy doesn't make people nice." --GM Armifer
Vote for DragonRealms on Top MUD Sites: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
"Empathy doesn't make people nice." --GM Armifer
Vote for DragonRealms on Top MUD Sites: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
>>so happy to hear this is a BUG (I was told this was just a 3.1 change I had to adjust to
In defense of whoever said that, I had to go spelunking down some fairly deep and dark caverns within the magic and creature cores to determine whether it was a bug. I wasn't even really sure what I expected when I went looking, but based on what I found there -- bug.
That's one reason it hasn't been fixed yet. Dealing with stuff in the magic core isn't something I do lightly and so any changes would need to be thoroughly QC'd and tested to ensure it doesn't cause something else to derp out.
Melete
Nature, it seems, is the popular name
for milliards and milliards and milliards
of particles playing their infinite game
of billiards and billiards and billiards.
In defense of whoever said that, I had to go spelunking down some fairly deep and dark caverns within the magic and creature cores to determine whether it was a bug. I wasn't even really sure what I expected when I went looking, but based on what I found there -- bug.
That's one reason it hasn't been fixed yet. Dealing with stuff in the magic core isn't something I do lightly and so any changes would need to be thoroughly QC'd and tested to ensure it doesn't cause something else to derp out.
Melete
Nature, it seems, is the popular name
for milliards and milliards and milliards
of particles playing their infinite game
of billiards and billiards and billiards.
I like paralyze. I think it trains well and is on par with all of my combats in the low to mid 200's. I like the effect it has on critters and the messaging.
I've never liked GS because it was woefully inadequate prior to 3.0 when I had an empath with 500 to 600 in combats. I find GS difficult to use, hard to command and control, and really ineffective at doing just about anything. It doesn't award experience well, so it's not even in my spell list, and will probably only be chosen when that is all I have left to choose from. If I want to kill things, I found manipulate to be far better, or perhaps it's because I find GS so difficult to use and I don't do it well.
I love, love, love, Strange Arrow, but its use is VERY limited to hunting constructs only, so since Paralysis is a cool spell and works well, I didn't bother picking up Strange Arrow after the magic preview ended.
________________________________________________________________
"I only automatically kill players when they're asking for it or it's funny. Or both." ~GM Raesh
I've never liked GS because it was woefully inadequate prior to 3.0 when I had an empath with 500 to 600 in combats. I find GS difficult to use, hard to command and control, and really ineffective at doing just about anything. It doesn't award experience well, so it's not even in my spell list, and will probably only be chosen when that is all I have left to choose from. If I want to kill things, I found manipulate to be far better, or perhaps it's because I find GS so difficult to use and I don't do it well.
I love, love, love, Strange Arrow, but its use is VERY limited to hunting constructs only, so since Paralysis is a cool spell and works well, I didn't bother picking up Strange Arrow after the magic preview ended.
________________________________________________________________
"I only automatically kill players when they're asking for it or it's funny. Or both." ~GM Raesh
