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<<Did you get the part where I mentioned cjs, powders, etc..?? Oh no, you ignored it.>>
You're overplaying their value. A lot
Especially in the case of everything other than the powders.
There aren't buffs enough to allow any paladin in any instance of the game to actually see me, and I'm not even a survival primary. They can try, of course, but then they're standing about in the open just begging for it.
That really only leaves powders, which require a pretty healthy time investment to acquire, and are difficult to use if you don't already know for a fact that your target is actually present. Most anyone else can get by (and far more effectively) with less effort.
The current level you're at is not even near the majority of the population. Besides, perception is a screwed up skill at those high levels, so using just your situation is irrelevant. CJs are very useful at mid - high levels, not the insane ones you're at.
Powders are powders. They can be difficult to obtain, but not always. I got some and I've only been to Throne City once ever.
>>Most anyone else can get by (and far more effectively) with less effort.
I agree. It takes more effort for Paladins, when conceptually, it probably shouldn't. Doesn't mean they can't be a good PvP'er against stealth.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
Powders are powders. They can be difficult to obtain, but not always. I got some and I've only been to Throne City once ever.
>>Most anyone else can get by (and far more effectively) with less effort.
I agree. It takes more effort for Paladins, when conceptually, it probably shouldn't. Doesn't mean they can't be a good PvP'er against stealth.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
Honestly, I think the assumption that the Paladin will remain whole long enough to actually use a powder is generous (and what with the need to know whether or not their target is actually present before tossing a powder, on top of that).
About the only thing keeping it from being a complete slaughter is the laundry list of consent rules that prime has.
Without that arbitrarily guaranteed first attack, it's really grim for paladins.
If you honestly think they can get by fighting on par as is, however, feel free to demonstrate it. Your Theoryrealms is not convincing.
About the only thing keeping it from being a complete slaughter is the laundry list of consent rules that prime has.
Without that arbitrarily guaranteed first attack, it's really grim for paladins.
If you honestly think they can get by fighting on par as is, however, feel free to demonstrate it. Your Theoryrealms is not convincing.
>>About the only thing keeping it from being a complete slaughter is the laundry list of consent rules that prime has.
Welcome to Prime. Good to see you're finally peeking out of that little TF box of yours. Perhaps in TF things are how you say it is, but did you know that there's another instance other than TF? Inconceivable!!1
>>If you honestly think they can get by fighting on par as is, however, feel free to demonstrate it. Your Theoryrealms is not convincing.
Yeah... I'm gonna go roll up a Paladin to demonstrate what a 1st grader could probably come to understand.
As is, Paladins could use a lot of work. Don't know how many times I stated that they really should be better. Of course, my "Theoryrealms" is what you've had trouble proving wrong in these lasts few posts. Do I really need to go over it again or are you arguing just for the sake of "winning"?
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
Welcome to Prime. Good to see you're finally peeking out of that little TF box of yours. Perhaps in TF things are how you say it is, but did you know that there's another instance other than TF? Inconceivable!!1
>>If you honestly think they can get by fighting on par as is, however, feel free to demonstrate it. Your Theoryrealms is not convincing.
Yeah... I'm gonna go roll up a Paladin to demonstrate what a 1st grader could probably come to understand.
As is, Paladins could use a lot of work. Don't know how many times I stated that they really should be better. Of course, my "Theoryrealms" is what you've had trouble proving wrong in these lasts few posts. Do I really need to go over it again or are you arguing just for the sake of "winning"?
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
First Vin is spot on with his advice. I keep sigils and powders on me at all times. I also have an assortment bag of tricks I have acquired over my many years that most people do not have or do not anticipate.
Overall, we can be good at PvP. Of that I am certain, but it is harder because of our skill setup.
My main and overall concern is that the advantage is always with the stealth side of the equation and we have to play these games in order to level the playing field. Typically, if we can survive the first attack we can do some serious damage. The issue is getting the opportunity to survive that first attack.
My recommendation is to make us better "tanks" (see my posts in the general paladin folder for recommendations and rationale). If we are better "tanks" then we can survive that first attack and then do some damage.
Madigan
True heroism is remarkably sober, very undramatic. It is not the urge to surpass all others at whatever cost, but the urge to serve others at whatever cost.
Arthur Ashe
Overall, we can be good at PvP. Of that I am certain, but it is harder because of our skill setup.
My main and overall concern is that the advantage is always with the stealth side of the equation and we have to play these games in order to level the playing field. Typically, if we can survive the first attack we can do some serious damage. The issue is getting the opportunity to survive that first attack.
My recommendation is to make us better "tanks" (see my posts in the general paladin folder for recommendations and rationale). If we are better "tanks" then we can survive that first attack and then do some damage.
Madigan
True heroism is remarkably sober, very undramatic. It is not the urge to surpass all others at whatever cost, but the urge to serve others at whatever cost.
Arthur Ashe
<<Welcome to Prime. Good to see you're finally peeking out of that little TF box of yours. Perhaps in TF things are how you say it is, but did you know that there's another instance other than TF? Inconceivable!!1>>
An artificial set of rules outside of the mechanical bounds of the game don't really make for a valid basis for a discussion on balance. The fact is that the stealther in this case is mechanically capable of obliterating the paladin on a whim - they'll just get yelled at after the fact (provided our paladin is a crybaby).
<<Yeah... I'm gonna go roll up a Paladin to demonstrate what a 1st grader could probably come to understand.>>
You'd probably need to go to a first grade class to find someone gullible enough to believe that paladins can get by in PvP as-is at the moment. :P
The fact is, for any remotely even (with respect to combat skills) PvP fight in DR, you DO need stealth or an effective anti-stealth readily available to you to have a snowball's chance in hell of winning. Your arguments otherwise are tantamount to, "Well..you don't need stealth to be good in PvP....if your opponent is AFK. Or 50 circles under you and can't possibly hurt you. Or you're tag-teaming them." All technically true, but presenting them as effective-when-applied is laughable.
An artificial set of rules outside of the mechanical bounds of the game don't really make for a valid basis for a discussion on balance. The fact is that the stealther in this case is mechanically capable of obliterating the paladin on a whim - they'll just get yelled at after the fact (provided our paladin is a crybaby).
<<Yeah... I'm gonna go roll up a Paladin to demonstrate what a 1st grader could probably come to understand.>>
You'd probably need to go to a first grade class to find someone gullible enough to believe that paladins can get by in PvP as-is at the moment. :P
The fact is, for any remotely even (with respect to combat skills) PvP fight in DR, you DO need stealth or an effective anti-stealth readily available to you to have a snowball's chance in hell of winning. Your arguments otherwise are tantamount to, "Well..you don't need stealth to be good in PvP....if your opponent is AFK. Or 50 circles under you and can't possibly hurt you. Or you're tag-teaming them." All technically true, but presenting them as effective-when-applied is laughable.
Yeah, that's what I'm trying to say, Madigan. Paladins don't have to sigh and go "I'm just helpless against stealth attacks. I will never be good in PvP against them because that Mors guy in TF says I can't."
Whatever.
Somtimes effectively predicting WHEN someone is in the room is what determines whether you kill someone or get killed. Determining WHEN to roar Slash (cause it saps my voice) is my best chance of being effective. It goes the same with thug powders. And it's always helps to have that extra 60+ ranks in evasion, perception, etc... from your cjs. Oh, and unbend sigils might be useful. OH! Watching can be useful IF the Thief doesn't live in hiding or inviso. Heh.
I've always thought Paladins should be more like tanks. I'd like to see them get more abilities and spells to further distinguish how good of a defensive guild they are. More advanced 60+ techniques.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
Whatever.
Somtimes effectively predicting WHEN someone is in the room is what determines whether you kill someone or get killed. Determining WHEN to roar Slash (cause it saps my voice) is my best chance of being effective. It goes the same with thug powders. And it's always helps to have that extra 60+ ranks in evasion, perception, etc... from your cjs. Oh, and unbend sigils might be useful. OH! Watching can be useful IF the Thief doesn't live in hiding or inviso. Heh.
I've always thought Paladins should be more like tanks. I'd like to see them get more abilities and spells to further distinguish how good of a defensive guild they are. More advanced 60+ techniques.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
>>An artificial set of rules outside of the mechanical bounds of the game don't really make for a valid basis for a discussion on balance.
Balance is not the discussion. The discussion is whether or not a Paladin can be good in PvP against stealth. Rules or not, they can be, because the anti-stealth that you say in your next paragraph can be thug powders. Perhaps using your own arguments will make things a little easier for you to understand.
>>you DO need stealth or an effective anti-stealth readily available to you to have a snowball's chance in hell of winning.
I must disagree. But then again, I'd be going over the same stuff Paladins can do as I did in most of my posts.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
Balance is not the discussion. The discussion is whether or not a Paladin can be good in PvP against stealth. Rules or not, they can be, because the anti-stealth that you say in your next paragraph can be thug powders. Perhaps using your own arguments will make things a little easier for you to understand.
>>you DO need stealth or an effective anti-stealth readily available to you to have a snowball's chance in hell of winning.
I must disagree. But then again, I'd be going over the same stuff Paladins can do as I did in most of my posts.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
<<I've always thought Paladins should be more like tanks. I'd like to see them get more abilities and spells to further distinguish how good of a defensive guild they are.>>
To me that is the key...make us better tanks.
Madigan
True heroism is remarkably sober, very undramatic. It is not the urge to surpass all others at whatever cost, but the urge to serve others at whatever cost.
Arthur Ashe
To me that is the key...make us better tanks.
Madigan
True heroism is remarkably sober, very undramatic. It is not the urge to surpass all others at whatever cost, but the urge to serve others at whatever cost.
Arthur Ashe
<<Rules or not, they can be, because the anti-stealth that you say in your next paragraph can be thug powders. >>
It's certainly not a "rules or not" situation. Nix the rules and the powders will never even come into play.
The only situation (all relevant numerics being approximately equal) as it stands right now that a paladin can function in PvP is one where they have carte blanche for the first attack.
Tourney? Forget about it. Any situation where it's the other guy with consent? Forget about it. Any situation where neither party is a reporter? Forget about it.
<<
>>you DO need stealth or an effective anti-stealth readily available to you to have a snowball's chance in hell of winning.
I must disagree. But then again, I'd be going over the same stuff Paladins can do as I did in most of my posts.
>>
I said effective anti-stealth. Powders...really aren't. Neither is slash, for that matter. Or sigils (I can't believe people still use those).
Barbs, however, fulfill the, "Has stealth" requirement, so they have that going for them.
And, finally: Forget about CJs. They're only relevant if the other party is a barbarian, really. Even NMUs can use them, and if we're assuming our paladin is going to such lengths, it's just as fair to assume his opponent is as well, effectively reducing their net effect to 0.
It's certainly not a "rules or not" situation. Nix the rules and the powders will never even come into play.
The only situation (all relevant numerics being approximately equal) as it stands right now that a paladin can function in PvP is one where they have carte blanche for the first attack.
Tourney? Forget about it. Any situation where it's the other guy with consent? Forget about it. Any situation where neither party is a reporter? Forget about it.
<<
>>you DO need stealth or an effective anti-stealth readily available to you to have a snowball's chance in hell of winning.
I must disagree. But then again, I'd be going over the same stuff Paladins can do as I did in most of my posts.
>>
I said effective anti-stealth. Powders...really aren't. Neither is slash, for that matter. Or sigils (I can't believe people still use those).
Barbs, however, fulfill the, "Has stealth" requirement, so they have that going for them.
And, finally: Forget about CJs. They're only relevant if the other party is a barbarian, really. Even NMUs can use them, and if we're assuming our paladin is going to such lengths, it's just as fair to assume his opponent is as well, effectively reducing their net effect to 0.
>>>Powders, runes, sigils... blah -- who has time for that crap?
>The people that want to be good at PvP?
The problem is, unless I know I'm gonna get jacked, none of that is going to be available to me because I'll be dead or really close to dead. If I know in advance, sure... different story, same ending unless the stealther is a tard.
-THE Noob
Holy father - holy ghost
Who's the one who hurts you most
Rock the cradle when you cry
Scream another lullaby
>The people that want to be good at PvP?
The problem is, unless I know I'm gonna get jacked, none of that is going to be available to me because I'll be dead or really close to dead. If I know in advance, sure... different story, same ending unless the stealther is a tard.
-THE Noob
Holy father - holy ghost
Who's the one who hurts you most
Rock the cradle when you cry
Scream another lullaby
>>The only situation (all relevant numerics being approximately equal) as it stands right now that a paladin can function in PvP is one where they have carte blanche for the first attack.
Ok, at first there was no PvP situation involving stealth at all, now there's an "ONLY". We're finally getting somewhere. :)
>>I said effective anti-stealth. Powders...really aren't. Neither is slash, for that matter. Or sigils (I can't believe people still use those).
Slash isn't an effective anti-stealth? My Barbarians also has poor stealths. I'd like to think (in Prime) that I'm decent at PvP. Either you're still in your TF box or you're starting to contradict yourself. Which is it?
>> Even NMUs can use them, and if we're assuming our paladin is going to such lengths, it's just as fair to assume his opponent is as well, effectively reducing their net effect to 0.
Assumptions, assumptions. I used to think that but you'd be surprised how many people don't use CJs and aren't good in PvP in general.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
Ok, at first there was no PvP situation involving stealth at all, now there's an "ONLY". We're finally getting somewhere. :)
>>I said effective anti-stealth. Powders...really aren't. Neither is slash, for that matter. Or sigils (I can't believe people still use those).
Slash isn't an effective anti-stealth? My Barbarians also has poor stealths. I'd like to think (in Prime) that I'm decent at PvP. Either you're still in your TF box or you're starting to contradict yourself. Which is it?
>> Even NMUs can use them, and if we're assuming our paladin is going to such lengths, it's just as fair to assume his opponent is as well, effectively reducing their net effect to 0.
Assumptions, assumptions. I used to think that but you'd be surprised how many people don't use CJs and aren't good in PvP in general.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
>>The problem is, unless I know I'm gonna get jacked, none of that is going to be available to me because I'll be dead or really close to dead. If I know in advance, sure... different story, same ending unless the stealther is a tard.
I don't know if I quite understand.
It's the same with me. It's the same with WMs, it's the same with every single other guild. If they don't know that some random person is gonna come and backstab the hell out of them (and if that random person is strong enough to do it) then not one spell or ability in the game is gonna help.
Not sure where we're getting at. The first sign that you might get jacked is if someone locate you. Don't know about others, but I usually prepare for it. When I know someone is coming, I'll make sure to lead them to an area that would give me a slight advantage. If some are convinced that currently Paladins stand no chance in PvP against stealth then I might as well stop right now. Just keep getting owned, not my problem.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
I don't know if I quite understand.
It's the same with me. It's the same with WMs, it's the same with every single other guild. If they don't know that some random person is gonna come and backstab the hell out of them (and if that random person is strong enough to do it) then not one spell or ability in the game is gonna help.
Not sure where we're getting at. The first sign that you might get jacked is if someone locate you. Don't know about others, but I usually prepare for it. When I know someone is coming, I'll make sure to lead them to an area that would give me a slight advantage. If some are convinced that currently Paladins stand no chance in PvP against stealth then I might as well stop right now. Just keep getting owned, not my problem.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
<<Ok, at first there was no PvP situation involving stealth at all, now there's an "ONLY". We're finally getting somewhere.>>
The "only" in this case is an artificial situation created by non-mechanical rules. Stealth = win is a pretty basic rule of PvP in DR. This is because First strike = win is an even more basic rule of PvP in DR, and stealth provides that. The "only" exists because it sets up an artificial situation where stealth's first strike ability is trumped by a non-mechanical version. In effect, consent and stealth serve the same purpose.
I don't really consider that to be within the context of a genuine "fight" however, since one party is artificially hamstrung.
<<Slash isn't an effective anti-stealth?>>
Not from what I've seen, no.
The "only" in this case is an artificial situation created by non-mechanical rules. Stealth = win is a pretty basic rule of PvP in DR. This is because First strike = win is an even more basic rule of PvP in DR, and stealth provides that. The "only" exists because it sets up an artificial situation where stealth's first strike ability is trumped by a non-mechanical version. In effect, consent and stealth serve the same purpose.
I don't really consider that to be within the context of a genuine "fight" however, since one party is artificially hamstrung.
<<Slash isn't an effective anti-stealth?>>
Not from what I've seen, no.
>>Stealth = win is a pretty basic rule of PvP in DR. This is because First strike = win is an even more basic rule of PvP in DR, and stealth provides that.
I agree with that entire paragraph except the last four words. Stealth does not always provide the first strike. Not unless you clearly have no idea someone is gonna attack you. But like I said in my last post, no ability or spell in the game will save you if you don't even suspect it's coming (this is of course if the stealth person is capable to killing you).
If you do suspect it's coming, then you can use whatever means necessary to give yourself a chance at killing the stealth person. This is just a rough example:
I happened to be in a room where there was no hiding allowed. A person who I couldn't see hide (I know because I knew him already) came in and suddenly started crap. I warned him that I would kill him. He kept going and left out of the room. Now, at the time I had no idea he went out and hid immediately. But, I powered up (got my ki all high and stuff) and when I left out I immediately roared the entire room. I guessed. Woot. Then proceeded to kill him.
How is using a powder any different for a Paladin? Assuming they trained up a ranged weapon, and was able to Halt the person. It's not impossible. A quick script would make sure you'd get off the first strike on said person after using the powder.
If you're located... you can run to a room similar to that. OR, you can run into another room and see if you're located again. Time the locates and you'll be able to tell whether the stealth person is close or not. The faster the locates, the more likely he checked the spot you were previously in. Use that to your advantage and try to determine what room he may pop in at what time. If a Thief is using Spot, then you may have to be patient and lead them on some more. A lot of PvP situations can go either way, meaning: Both can kill each other. Being stealthy IS an advantage, I'm not saying it's not. An advantage Paladins can't have. However, PvP can also involve outwitting your opponent. Sometimes that can overcome stealth.
>>Not from what I've seen, no.
Hahaha. That makes me laugh.
I think Paladins really could use some better anti-stealth techniques. But they certainly stand a chance (even if it's smaller than other guilds) against stealthy people in a PvP situation.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
I agree with that entire paragraph except the last four words. Stealth does not always provide the first strike. Not unless you clearly have no idea someone is gonna attack you. But like I said in my last post, no ability or spell in the game will save you if you don't even suspect it's coming (this is of course if the stealth person is capable to killing you).
If you do suspect it's coming, then you can use whatever means necessary to give yourself a chance at killing the stealth person. This is just a rough example:
I happened to be in a room where there was no hiding allowed. A person who I couldn't see hide (I know because I knew him already) came in and suddenly started crap. I warned him that I would kill him. He kept going and left out of the room. Now, at the time I had no idea he went out and hid immediately. But, I powered up (got my ki all high and stuff) and when I left out I immediately roared the entire room. I guessed. Woot. Then proceeded to kill him.
How is using a powder any different for a Paladin? Assuming they trained up a ranged weapon, and was able to Halt the person. It's not impossible. A quick script would make sure you'd get off the first strike on said person after using the powder.
If you're located... you can run to a room similar to that. OR, you can run into another room and see if you're located again. Time the locates and you'll be able to tell whether the stealth person is close or not. The faster the locates, the more likely he checked the spot you were previously in. Use that to your advantage and try to determine what room he may pop in at what time. If a Thief is using Spot, then you may have to be patient and lead them on some more. A lot of PvP situations can go either way, meaning: Both can kill each other. Being stealthy IS an advantage, I'm not saying it's not. An advantage Paladins can't have. However, PvP can also involve outwitting your opponent. Sometimes that can overcome stealth.
>>Not from what I've seen, no.
Hahaha. That makes me laugh.
I think Paladins really could use some better anti-stealth techniques. But they certainly stand a chance (even if it's smaller than other guilds) against stealthy people in a PvP situation.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
Stealth and the one shot kill do seem to be the winning combination for CvC. The guilds that are stealth poor, or don't have area affect abililties to counter stealth pretty much have the poor end of the stick, no matter how they try to train to counter them. Would Barbarians be able to compete PvP without roars?
It seems to me that Paladins need either a roar equivelent- some type of room wide spell or glyph or whatever on the scale of roars, or going the other direction, some type of defensive ability that is as powerful on defense and backstab is on offense- sort of anti- single shot kill effect.
"militantly enforcing the overly rigid standards of you and your small collection of friends"
It seems to me that Paladins need either a roar equivelent- some type of room wide spell or glyph or whatever on the scale of roars, or going the other direction, some type of defensive ability that is as powerful on defense and backstab is on offense- sort of anti- single shot kill effect.
"militantly enforcing the overly rigid standards of you and your small collection of friends"
<<Stealth does not always provide the first strike.>>
It pretty much does when the player of the stealther in question is, say, capable of not drooling on himself. :P
I'm not contending that you can't manage to drop a remarkably poor player regardless of stealth - but I don't think being able to take on the lowest common denominators really qualifies one as a "Good" PvPer.
<<Hahaha. That makes me laugh.>>
Honestly, I haven't been impressed by it. And, yes, I may be a TFer, but as TFers go, I'm, relatively speaking, smaller than the barbs that I've tested it with.
It pretty much does when the player of the stealther in question is, say, capable of not drooling on himself. :P
I'm not contending that you can't manage to drop a remarkably poor player regardless of stealth - but I don't think being able to take on the lowest common denominators really qualifies one as a "Good" PvPer.
<<Hahaha. That makes me laugh.>>
Honestly, I haven't been impressed by it. And, yes, I may be a TFer, but as TFers go, I'm, relatively speaking, smaller than the barbs that I've tested it with.
>I don't know if I quite understand.
Not to be conflicty... but I gave you credit for understanding some of this stuff.
If you don't know you're gonna get jacked, then you're probably not buffed. I do run around with Clarity, DiG, and DA up, only because I can get good durations.
So the first winning attack usually wins PvP, right? Yes. All it takes is a small stun, or head wound, and it's over. There are no runes, sigils, or powders. Theres maybe a 0 RT Lead, or GoL.
The other alternative is to run away, and regroup, and swotch to plan B, the 'you know you're gonna be jacked' plan.
Even still, first successful attack is going to win by and large.
-THE Noob
Holy father - holy ghost
Who's the one who hurts you most
Rock the cradle when you cry
Scream another lullaby
Not to be conflicty... but I gave you credit for understanding some of this stuff.
If you don't know you're gonna get jacked, then you're probably not buffed. I do run around with Clarity, DiG, and DA up, only because I can get good durations.
So the first winning attack usually wins PvP, right? Yes. All it takes is a small stun, or head wound, and it's over. There are no runes, sigils, or powders. Theres maybe a 0 RT Lead, or GoL.
The other alternative is to run away, and regroup, and swotch to plan B, the 'you know you're gonna be jacked' plan.
Even still, first successful attack is going to win by and large.
-THE Noob
Holy father - holy ghost
Who's the one who hurts you most
Rock the cradle when you cry
Scream another lullaby
ALDEN,
I agree with you that Paladins do have the poor end of the stick. But that does not in any way mean that it's impossible for them to be good against stealth in PvP even if they use any means necessary.
>>It pretty much does when the player of the stealther in question is, say, capable of not drooling on himself. :P
A lot of people in Prime are like that.
>>but I don't think being able to take on the lowest common denominators really qualifies one as a "Good" PvPer.
With the amount of people in Prime that aren't all that good, (even some that are, but may be a little too cocky) I believe it's possible for a Paladin to be good. I'm a Barb with low stealths, (and you don't think Slash is an effective anti-stealth) yet I fair very well against the majority of people I'm capable of killing. Thug powders are not much different than Slash as far as the effects of what they do. Slash is an ability, so it has both pros and cons compared to thug powders. I'm willing to give details if you want to see. :)
>>Honestly, I haven't been impressed by it.
Slash in and of itself doesn't do much. It brings someone out of hiding or inviso. What makes it "impressive" to me is that it allows you to follow up with something else. Make a script to follow up with another roar that immobilizes, or get off a shot with a weapon.
Remember, we're talking about how Paladins don't stand a chance. I'm clearly bringing up options that they have. Using a thug powder gives them a free cast, or a free shot. Add on being buffed up with anti-stun, evasion + shield + perception cjs and it isn't impossible unless they are completely outclassed. I just don't see it.
>>If you don't know you're gonna get jacked, then you're probably not buffed. I do run around with Clarity, DiG, and DA up, only because I can get good durations.
What I'm trying to get you to understand is that it's the same for EVERYONE. If a War Mage don't know he's gonna get jacked, then he'll get blasted too. Same for a Moon Mage. Same for every guild. If that first hit is a killing hit it's over, no matter what guild you are.
>>So the first winning attack usually wins PvP, right? Yes. All it takes is a small stun, or head wound, and it's over. There are no runes, sigils, or powders. Theres maybe a 0 RT Lead, or GoL.
I'll try to explain why stealth is powerful.
Stealth is indeed powerful because even when you KNOW it can possibly be coming, you don't see it coming. Get that?
It's not powerful simply because you don't know it's coming. If I don't know a War Mage is gonna come out of nowhere and LB me then I'll die from that too, if they're capable of killing me. If I don't know a Barbarians is gonna walk into the room and shoot me then I'll die too.
When Bob the Paladin tells me he's gonna come kill me over the gweth, then I know he's coming, and therefore I'll be aware. Stealth's power comes from the fact that Bob the Thief can tell me the same thing and I'll have to worry about not seeing him running through rooms or being in the open. That's the power of stealth. Hope that clears it up a little.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
I agree with you that Paladins do have the poor end of the stick. But that does not in any way mean that it's impossible for them to be good against stealth in PvP even if they use any means necessary.
>>It pretty much does when the player of the stealther in question is, say, capable of not drooling on himself. :P
A lot of people in Prime are like that.
>>but I don't think being able to take on the lowest common denominators really qualifies one as a "Good" PvPer.
With the amount of people in Prime that aren't all that good, (even some that are, but may be a little too cocky) I believe it's possible for a Paladin to be good. I'm a Barb with low stealths, (and you don't think Slash is an effective anti-stealth) yet I fair very well against the majority of people I'm capable of killing. Thug powders are not much different than Slash as far as the effects of what they do. Slash is an ability, so it has both pros and cons compared to thug powders. I'm willing to give details if you want to see. :)
>>Honestly, I haven't been impressed by it.
Slash in and of itself doesn't do much. It brings someone out of hiding or inviso. What makes it "impressive" to me is that it allows you to follow up with something else. Make a script to follow up with another roar that immobilizes, or get off a shot with a weapon.
Remember, we're talking about how Paladins don't stand a chance. I'm clearly bringing up options that they have. Using a thug powder gives them a free cast, or a free shot. Add on being buffed up with anti-stun, evasion + shield + perception cjs and it isn't impossible unless they are completely outclassed. I just don't see it.
>>If you don't know you're gonna get jacked, then you're probably not buffed. I do run around with Clarity, DiG, and DA up, only because I can get good durations.
What I'm trying to get you to understand is that it's the same for EVERYONE. If a War Mage don't know he's gonna get jacked, then he'll get blasted too. Same for a Moon Mage. Same for every guild. If that first hit is a killing hit it's over, no matter what guild you are.
>>So the first winning attack usually wins PvP, right? Yes. All it takes is a small stun, or head wound, and it's over. There are no runes, sigils, or powders. Theres maybe a 0 RT Lead, or GoL.
I'll try to explain why stealth is powerful.
Stealth is indeed powerful because even when you KNOW it can possibly be coming, you don't see it coming. Get that?
It's not powerful simply because you don't know it's coming. If I don't know a War Mage is gonna come out of nowhere and LB me then I'll die from that too, if they're capable of killing me. If I don't know a Barbarians is gonna walk into the room and shoot me then I'll die too.
When Bob the Paladin tells me he's gonna come kill me over the gweth, then I know he's coming, and therefore I'll be aware. Stealth's power comes from the fact that Bob the Thief can tell me the same thing and I'll have to worry about not seeing him running through rooms or being in the open. That's the power of stealth. Hope that clears it up a little.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
<<
With the amount of people in Prime that aren't all that good, (even some that are, but may be a little too cocky) I believe it's possible for a Paladin to be good.>>
Ah. See, I'm measuring 'good' on an objective, rigid scale. You're measuring it relatively (which I don't think is necessarily unfair, but I wouldn't use everyone else in the game as a basis for comparison because...you're right. Most of them are terrible.) - that's probably the root cause of our disagreement.
<<Slash in and of itself doesn't do much. It brings someone out of hiding or inviso. What makes it "impressive" to me is that it allows you to follow up with something else.>>
Erm, I know that. i meant that I wasn't impressed with its ability to do the one thing it does.
With the amount of people in Prime that aren't all that good, (even some that are, but may be a little too cocky) I believe it's possible for a Paladin to be good.>>
Ah. See, I'm measuring 'good' on an objective, rigid scale. You're measuring it relatively (which I don't think is necessarily unfair, but I wouldn't use everyone else in the game as a basis for comparison because...you're right. Most of them are terrible.) - that's probably the root cause of our disagreement.
<<Slash in and of itself doesn't do much. It brings someone out of hiding or inviso. What makes it "impressive" to me is that it allows you to follow up with something else.>>
Erm, I know that. i meant that I wasn't impressed with its ability to do the one thing it does.
Being a paladin in TF, most likely the highest in the game, I rarely pvp. I have no chance against any guild my same level. I dont know if its just because I dont know what I am doing, or if paladins really are gimped in pvp. My advice to people that like pvp is to train stealth and perception like crazy, also train a ranged. I do want to try casting smh on someone though, but in pvp we rarely get to melee, if that happens I bring out the mace o doom and can sometimes win.
thanks
thanks
>What I'm trying to get you to understand is that it's the same for EVERYONE.
I get that. Even as a Paladin, if I get the first shot in I'll win nearly every time. I'm not arguing that point.
>I'll try to explain why stealth is powerful.
So ready or not, if you can't see it, they get the first shot. Snipe, backstab, LB, MB, or Roar from hiding will negate any buffs because of the perception penalty. Sure, we can increase our chances by using CV, or GoL (which anyone can see is active and wait), but the bottom line is we can't feasibly keep those up endlessly.
Back to the buffs for a moment... If I'm attacking someone, before I go after them, I spell up, to take advantage of my own abilities... in many cases, I can't buff-up any higher than someone else can defense buff, for a net zero gain.
Bottom line: your statement is true. Paladins (or anyone) can win against stealth, even if they cannot see. But thats onlt because the stealth person makes a mistake, and is caught out of hiding for a halt, SF, or aimed ranged shot.
TFPALADIN wisely suggests training perception and stealth as counters. For Paladins that is akin to the TM changes, we have to overtrain tert skills to participate, and our guild abilities don't go very far to help us. That doesn't even take into consideration what happens when our moral ruler, the soulstate is tanked and none of our abilities work; can you say 'base skills sitting duck'? Again, unless the stealth person makes a mistake.
-THE Noob
Holy father - holy ghost
Who's the one who hurts you most
Rock the cradle when you cry
Scream another lullaby
I get that. Even as a Paladin, if I get the first shot in I'll win nearly every time. I'm not arguing that point.
>I'll try to explain why stealth is powerful.
So ready or not, if you can't see it, they get the first shot. Snipe, backstab, LB, MB, or Roar from hiding will negate any buffs because of the perception penalty. Sure, we can increase our chances by using CV, or GoL (which anyone can see is active and wait), but the bottom line is we can't feasibly keep those up endlessly.
Back to the buffs for a moment... If I'm attacking someone, before I go after them, I spell up, to take advantage of my own abilities... in many cases, I can't buff-up any higher than someone else can defense buff, for a net zero gain.
Bottom line: your statement is true. Paladins (or anyone) can win against stealth, even if they cannot see. But thats onlt because the stealth person makes a mistake, and is caught out of hiding for a halt, SF, or aimed ranged shot.
TFPALADIN wisely suggests training perception and stealth as counters. For Paladins that is akin to the TM changes, we have to overtrain tert skills to participate, and our guild abilities don't go very far to help us. That doesn't even take into consideration what happens when our moral ruler, the soulstate is tanked and none of our abilities work; can you say 'base skills sitting duck'? Again, unless the stealth person makes a mistake.
-THE Noob
Holy father - holy ghost
Who's the one who hurts you most
Rock the cradle when you cry
Scream another lullaby
>>So ready or not, if you can't see it, they get the first shot.
No. You're still misinterpreting. If you're not ready or not expecting, then yes they'll always have the first shot.
If you ARE ready then you can lead them to allow you to get the first shot. If you just stand there and give up cause you think you don't have a chance then of course they'll always get the first shot. It's just harder because if they use stealth you won't be able to see their movements. I've gotten the first strike on stealth users before when I expected it. I've done it. Lots of times. I've done it. Heh, not sure what's hard to understand about that.
They HAVE to locate you somehow. If you're not stupid enough to stand in one spot and make it easy for them, then they MUST locate you again, and again if they're actively trying to kill you. Time their locates compared to your position since they've (more than likely) checked the room you were just in and found out you weren't there. If you only move two rooms over and they locate you then you can try using thug powders to STRIKE FIRST. Yes, it's risky. It's very risky. Might not always work, but depending on your supply, you can make it much harder for stealthy people to take you out. And sometimes (like I have) you will come out on top.
Again, I've done it plenty of times. So what does this mean? Even if your opponent uses stealth, if you're ready, you CAN strike first. Not too hard to understand, right?
>>If I'm attacking someone, before I go after them, I spell up, to take advantage of my own abilities... in many cases, I can't buff-up any higher than someone else can defense buff, for a net zero gain.
You're assuming that they've buffed up in the first place. Don't know why you seem to have this "defeated" attitude before it even happens. Even Madigan walks around with his stuff. Does it mean he'll always survive? No. It just means he increases his chances of coming out on top.
You think I won't use any of my dances because my opponent might have up a defensive abilities? No. If they do then our abilities will cancel out for a net zero gain. If I don't, then they'll have the advantage.
TFPALADIN is also at a level where stealth is broken. The higher you get, the worse it will be for a Paladin, I can give you that. But at 55th? At 75th? Sure, your abilities may not be all that great, but you do stand a chance as long as you think you do, and prepare for it.
Again, PvP can involve as much tactic and wit as skill, provided that both parties are capable of killing each other.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
No. You're still misinterpreting. If you're not ready or not expecting, then yes they'll always have the first shot.
If you ARE ready then you can lead them to allow you to get the first shot. If you just stand there and give up cause you think you don't have a chance then of course they'll always get the first shot. It's just harder because if they use stealth you won't be able to see their movements. I've gotten the first strike on stealth users before when I expected it. I've done it. Lots of times. I've done it. Heh, not sure what's hard to understand about that.
They HAVE to locate you somehow. If you're not stupid enough to stand in one spot and make it easy for them, then they MUST locate you again, and again if they're actively trying to kill you. Time their locates compared to your position since they've (more than likely) checked the room you were just in and found out you weren't there. If you only move two rooms over and they locate you then you can try using thug powders to STRIKE FIRST. Yes, it's risky. It's very risky. Might not always work, but depending on your supply, you can make it much harder for stealthy people to take you out. And sometimes (like I have) you will come out on top.
Again, I've done it plenty of times. So what does this mean? Even if your opponent uses stealth, if you're ready, you CAN strike first. Not too hard to understand, right?
>>If I'm attacking someone, before I go after them, I spell up, to take advantage of my own abilities... in many cases, I can't buff-up any higher than someone else can defense buff, for a net zero gain.
You're assuming that they've buffed up in the first place. Don't know why you seem to have this "defeated" attitude before it even happens. Even Madigan walks around with his stuff. Does it mean he'll always survive? No. It just means he increases his chances of coming out on top.
You think I won't use any of my dances because my opponent might have up a defensive abilities? No. If they do then our abilities will cancel out for a net zero gain. If I don't, then they'll have the advantage.
TFPALADIN is also at a level where stealth is broken. The higher you get, the worse it will be for a Paladin, I can give you that. But at 55th? At 75th? Sure, your abilities may not be all that great, but you do stand a chance as long as you think you do, and prepare for it.
Again, PvP can involve as much tactic and wit as skill, provided that both parties are capable of killing each other.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
I've learned a lot reading this thread. More than I learned when you schooled me in that spar the other night, Vinjince. Heheh.
>Again, PvP can involve as much tactic and wit as skill, provided that both parties are capable of killing each other.
I wish it had more to do with tactic and wit. Then I'd feel like there was a point in learning it.
Axillus - Halfling Warrior Mage
>You charge your steel-toed footwrap at a musk hog.
>Again, PvP can involve as much tactic and wit as skill, provided that both parties are capable of killing each other.
I wish it had more to do with tactic and wit. Then I'd feel like there was a point in learning it.
Axillus - Halfling Warrior Mage
>You charge your steel-toed footwrap at a musk hog.
>>I wish it had more to do with tactic and wit. Then I'd feel like there was a point in learning it.
Yeah, I know what you mean. A lot of people outclass me so much that I really don't stand a chance no matter what I do. And some of them aren't TOO much higher than me. But if there's even a remote possibility of me taking someone out then I'll try to figure out a way to do it. Of course, I wouldn't know until I at least tried.
It's more rough for Paladins, especially against stealthy people. I think they could use a lot of help. Though, I still believe that (depending on how sir Paladin is trained and fights in PvP) they can still come out on top against stealth folks by striking first. If the stealth person doesn't make a mistake, then you can try your best to MAKE them make a mistake. But I think it'd be good if Paladins were designed to be able to withstand a lot more damage than other guilds.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
Yeah, I know what you mean. A lot of people outclass me so much that I really don't stand a chance no matter what I do. And some of them aren't TOO much higher than me. But if there's even a remote possibility of me taking someone out then I'll try to figure out a way to do it. Of course, I wouldn't know until I at least tried.
It's more rough for Paladins, especially against stealthy people. I think they could use a lot of help. Though, I still believe that (depending on how sir Paladin is trained and fights in PvP) they can still come out on top against stealth folks by striking first. If the stealth person doesn't make a mistake, then you can try your best to MAKE them make a mistake. But I think it'd be good if Paladins were designed to be able to withstand a lot more damage than other guilds.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
