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ReplyRaesh has stated that their development goal is to have more spells/feats offered per guild than any one character could ever take. Some of the forum posts regarding the theme of sacrifice, spirituality, and more recently Lennon's stated desire for something more offensive got me thinking. How about stuff like this? One uses the cyclic mechanic in a new way and both introduces a mechanic where healing a paladin inflicts spirit damage while under certain spells. Thoughts?
Proposed New Paladin Sacrifice Spells
Stigmata
Esoteric
Cyclic
Augmentation/Utility
Requires: Every other Paladin cyclic spell
-Any empathic or herbal healing causes severe Spirit damage to the paladin. Sacrifice is mandatory.
- Every cyclic pulse opens up a random light bleeder upon the paladin. Injury builds up.
- Every cyclic pulse the paladin takes a small hit to Fatigue.
- Every cyclic pulse gives the Paladin a very large dose of mana.
- Every cyclic pulse grants a bonus to a single randomly selected attribute for a time.
- Every cyclic pulse refills a portion of the Smite pool.
- Every cyclic pulse grants a very small number of Holy Weapon charges.
- While under this spell the Paladin gains resistance to spirit-based attacks.
Sacrificial Charge
Esoteric
Battle
Augmentation/Warding
Requires: Anti-Stun, Crusader’s Challenge, Stigmata
- Upon finishing this spell, several bleeders will open up on the paladin’s body.
- Upon finishing this spell, the paladin takes a substantial hit to Spirit, slowing repeated use.
-While under this spell any healing applied to the body inflicts Spirit damage upon the paladin.
- While under this spell any attempt to Retreat or Flee will inflict a severe stun on the paladin.
- For the duration of the spell the paladin ADVANCES upon a foe much, much more quickly.
- For the duration of the spell the paladin gains the effects of Holy Warrior.
- For the duration of the spell the paladin regains fatigue very quickly.
- For the duration of the spell the paladin becomes immune to paralysis and sleep.
- This spell grants resistance to any effect that forces a kneeling position or limits movement.
- For the duration of the spell the paladin becomes resistant to stuns.
- For the duration of the spell the paladin’s holy weapon (and only holy weapon) gains a substantial chance to automatically upgrade a normal attack to a Smite with no cost to the Smite pool.
I hate to say it, but I think Stigmata might be too closely tied to real world religion. And as a mechanic, I dislike/loathe damage caused by use of abilities unless it's capped or otherwise rendered relatively toothless. There aren't any other abilities like that in game except for HoT, I believe. Plus Paladins aren't supposed to be masochists, that's the empath and necro and moon mage guild.
Maybe if it was somehow taking damage from a target, or instead of a target? Might be too close to empath healing though?
I'm a badger, I be badgerin'
Maybe if it was somehow taking damage from a target, or instead of a target? Might be too close to empath healing though?
I'm a badger, I be badgerin'
I can respect your opinion on this. Perhaps a name change would be a good thing. As far as the taking damage part I think we are simply philosophically opposed. I like the idea of sacrifice in the sacrifice spellbook and I really like the potential RP... the dramatic moments where the heroic paladin gives his/her all for his/her cause. Imagine the dynamics made if the paladin uses this while Protecting someone else! Mechanically its kinda out there so I wouldn't expect it to be implemented in this form but if it was I would be excited about it- especially using the cyclic pulse in different ways. If anything, like Raesh said there are supposed to eventually be more spells and feats you could ever take- just don't take these. Again, I am not disrespecting your opinion on it but I'm just saying I like the idea of self sacrifice for a greater goal and its a pretty heft sacrifice so more powerful and entertaining effects could be justified.
On the surface I'm not a fan of either spell for two major reasons.
The first is that they are, simply put, doing WAY too much for one spell. They'd end up super complicated and costing a ton of slots and I don't think anyone would be happy with the actual results.
The second is that (And you all know this is true) their primary use would be causing lots of bleeders on the paladin for first aid and empathy training.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
The first is that they are, simply put, doing WAY too much for one spell. They'd end up super complicated and costing a ton of slots and I don't think anyone would be happy with the actual results.
The second is that (And you all know this is true) their primary use would be causing lots of bleeders on the paladin for first aid and empathy training.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
Complicated: yeah, I can accept that. It would be a lot. Perhaps splitting the effects into different spells would be a better idea. In terms of coding, well, I wish I could speak with more expertise.
I was trying to think of a way to use the risk of spirit death to avoid the empathy/first aid thing. Perhaps other minds could come up with something better than I. Also, given the complaints about first aid, it might not be so terrible. I hang at the empath guild a lot: I don't see how its any easier than the folks that pincushion each other, blow traps on purpose, or intentionally backlash spells upon empath request.
This still makes me wonder why there is still so little actual sacrifice in the sacrifice spellbook. If these spells could not address that or create some of those RP opportunities I mentioned I was looking for, what could? What spell/ability direction might development go to allow a crusader to give it his/her all and then some for the cause? Where is the heroic last stand? Where is the 'I love all of you so much I'm going to willingly bleed for you" in the mechanics? Where is the real, life-purpose-affirming conviction inherent in the word 'Paladin'?
I'm still not sure why people think that 'paladins are not masochists' when in so, so, so many RL stories a willingness to bleed and suffer is portrayed as heroic, altruistic, and very often knightly. I'm wondering why this theme is not explored or, as I mentioned before, is outright rejected.
>>I hang at the empath guild a lot: I don't see how its any easier than the folks that pincushion each other, blow traps on purpose, or intentionally backlash spells upon empath request.
All of these are mech abuse and can result in warnings. Don't do it.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
All of these are mech abuse and can result in warnings. Don't do it.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
Apologies for the second post.
>>This still makes me wonder why there is still so little actual sacrifice in the sacrifice spellbook.
Because for years the spellbook was woefully underdeveloped. This was something they did back in the day, they'd introduce a spellbook and then only release one or two spells for it (Even if there were more plans which, in the case of sacrifice, I don't know of).
For the longest time the spellbook consisted entirely of Alamhif's Gift which, at the time, was a spell that let you give favors to others. That was it. That was the embodiment of the spellbook.
There's a reason one of the last spells released for Paladins under 2.1 was a sacrifice spell, and two of the newest Paladin spells are also both sacrifice spells. And the Paladin TM spell I need to finish writing messaging for so I can release it is a sacrifice spell. I have one or two more sacrifice spells in various stats of proposals/approvals etc but they're waiting on some other development before I move forward with them.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
>>This still makes me wonder why there is still so little actual sacrifice in the sacrifice spellbook.
Because for years the spellbook was woefully underdeveloped. This was something they did back in the day, they'd introduce a spellbook and then only release one or two spells for it (Even if there were more plans which, in the case of sacrifice, I don't know of).
For the longest time the spellbook consisted entirely of Alamhif's Gift which, at the time, was a spell that let you give favors to others. That was it. That was the embodiment of the spellbook.
There's a reason one of the last spells released for Paladins under 2.1 was a sacrifice spell, and two of the newest Paladin spells are also both sacrifice spells. And the Paladin TM spell I need to finish writing messaging for so I can release it is a sacrifice spell. I have one or two more sacrifice spells in various stats of proposals/approvals etc but they're waiting on some other development before I move forward with them.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
"Where is the heroic last stand? Where is the 'I love all of you so much I'm going to willingly bleed for you" in the mechanics?"
I think that it's a mistake to pidgeonhole the guild as being "good" in some conventional sense like that. Willing to give up life and limb for their cause, sure, I mean ... that's what a warrior is. But not all causes are good in a conventional sense. Just like not all of the gods are good in a conventional sense.
To be blunt about it, Paladins in Dragonrealms have very little to do with Charlemagne or any real-world religious/moral values. I think that as a whole, the guild needs to be developed in a way that moves it from that mindset (Post-conversion-to-Christianity Arthurian chivalry) and towards a 13 Immortals and their aspects, plus the kings/lords of Elanthia mindset. For the gods and for the crown! It's the same root concept (a warrior who fights for gods and country) but with different root gods/kings/morals.
Regarding the spells themselves, the GM pretty much hit the nail on the head. I'd also like to add that they seem more like cleric abilities than paladin ones. Then again, I think most of the paladin spells seem more like cleric abilities than paladin ones. I'd actually like to see the Paladin guild lose their spells in favor of something more similar to the way the Barbarian/Thief guild systems work: special abilities that train magic. We already have lead, protect, and glyphs. Why not a few more things like that, all of which become tied into the magic skills? Let the clerics waggle their fingers and offer prayers for miracles.
I think that it's a mistake to pidgeonhole the guild as being "good" in some conventional sense like that. Willing to give up life and limb for their cause, sure, I mean ... that's what a warrior is. But not all causes are good in a conventional sense. Just like not all of the gods are good in a conventional sense.
To be blunt about it, Paladins in Dragonrealms have very little to do with Charlemagne or any real-world religious/moral values. I think that as a whole, the guild needs to be developed in a way that moves it from that mindset (Post-conversion-to-Christianity Arthurian chivalry) and towards a 13 Immortals and their aspects, plus the kings/lords of Elanthia mindset. For the gods and for the crown! It's the same root concept (a warrior who fights for gods and country) but with different root gods/kings/morals.
Regarding the spells themselves, the GM pretty much hit the nail on the head. I'd also like to add that they seem more like cleric abilities than paladin ones. Then again, I think most of the paladin spells seem more like cleric abilities than paladin ones. I'd actually like to see the Paladin guild lose their spells in favor of something more similar to the way the Barbarian/Thief guild systems work: special abilities that train magic. We already have lead, protect, and glyphs. Why not a few more things like that, all of which become tied into the magic skills? Let the clerics waggle their fingers and offer prayers for miracles.
> towards a 13 Immortals and their aspects, plus the kings/lords of Elanthia mindset.
I agree with the 13 primary aspects, but disagree with the political/social one. I don't think it's viable to tie an entire guild to the political-social structure of DR. Heck, how would that even work, aside from 'you need endorsement from the local leader to operate here'?
DR's politicians don't have a genius loci, or spiritual/shamanic tie to the ground, so Paladins wouldn't need some sort of metaphysical endorsement for powers to work.
I'm a badger, I be badgerin'
I agree with the 13 primary aspects, but disagree with the political/social one. I don't think it's viable to tie an entire guild to the political-social structure of DR. Heck, how would that even work, aside from 'you need endorsement from the local leader to operate here'?
DR's politicians don't have a genius loci, or spiritual/shamanic tie to the ground, so Paladins wouldn't need some sort of metaphysical endorsement for powers to work.
I'm a badger, I be badgerin'
Well, DR doesn't really have a political-social structure built in to it, mechanically speaking. It's just there in the lore (Prince Vorclaf, city council, Baron of Therengia, et al) and occaisonally GMs step up to fill those shoes for events. So yeah, it currently wouldn't make a good basis for any guild-based mechanics. Obviously. However, lore-wise, I do believe it should be part and parcel of the Paladins' guild to owe their fealty to their liege-lords.
Now, I wouldn't be opposed to the development of mechanics based on this concept ... but I do recognize that no mechanics are currently present. There are, however, some fairly strange mechanics the guild currently has going for it - such as the stealing ban. A Paladin steals, they must repent. If a Paladin murders then they must, if I recall correctly, go all the way up to Theren to repent in a special place. Neither of these actions are really crimes against the Immortals (except perhaps specifically against Chadatru) so this doesn't really make a whole lot of sense for a guild built around defense of a religion. However, they are crimes against mortal authorities, and Paladins (I feel) should be honor bound to serve said authorities.
Perhaps, just as Moon Mages may choose Sects that come with special perks, choosing which province to become a citizen of (which lord(s) to pledge your fealty to) could do something similar for Paladins in the future.
Now, I wouldn't be opposed to the development of mechanics based on this concept ... but I do recognize that no mechanics are currently present. There are, however, some fairly strange mechanics the guild currently has going for it - such as the stealing ban. A Paladin steals, they must repent. If a Paladin murders then they must, if I recall correctly, go all the way up to Theren to repent in a special place. Neither of these actions are really crimes against the Immortals (except perhaps specifically against Chadatru) so this doesn't really make a whole lot of sense for a guild built around defense of a religion. However, they are crimes against mortal authorities, and Paladins (I feel) should be honor bound to serve said authorities.
Perhaps, just as Moon Mages may choose Sects that come with special perks, choosing which province to become a citizen of (which lord(s) to pledge your fealty to) could do something similar for Paladins in the future.
>>DR-Raesh: The second is that (And you all know this is true) their primary use would be causing lots of bleeders on the paladin for first aid and empathy training.
That was my thought as well, especially if the prohibition on healing was only in place while the spell is up. (Cast the spell, let it pulse a few times, release it, and watch the Empaths drool.) An interesting solution (but probably not feasible from a coding perspective) would be to make those wounds not grant any empathy experience.
>>DR-Raesh: All of these are mech abuse and can result in warnings. Don't do it.
I often wonder about where that policy line is drawn when I hear Empaths publicly begging for people to come "spar" outside the guild just so they can have patients to heal. The practice of begging people to injure themselves (or offering to injure yourself) for empathy experience also strikes me as being rather OOC. Unfortunately, this seems to be a common practice, even though there are other training methods that aren't dependent on other player characters.
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
Vote for DragonRealms on Top MUD Sites: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
That was my thought as well, especially if the prohibition on healing was only in place while the spell is up. (Cast the spell, let it pulse a few times, release it, and watch the Empaths drool.) An interesting solution (but probably not feasible from a coding perspective) would be to make those wounds not grant any empathy experience.
>>DR-Raesh: All of these are mech abuse and can result in warnings. Don't do it.
I often wonder about where that policy line is drawn when I hear Empaths publicly begging for people to come "spar" outside the guild just so they can have patients to heal. The practice of begging people to injure themselves (or offering to injure yourself) for empathy experience also strikes me as being rather OOC. Unfortunately, this seems to be a common practice, even though there are other training methods that aren't dependent on other player characters.
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
Vote for DragonRealms on Top MUD Sites: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
>>Stellarmagus: Perhaps, just as Moon Mages may choose Sects that come with special perks, choosing which province to become a citizen of (which lord(s) to pledge your fealty to) could do something similar for Paladins in the future.
I don't know how feasible it would be from a coding perspective, but instead of pigeon-holing Paladins into one particular role or moral code, I would like to see different paths, both religious and secular, that emphasized different roles. The choice would be permanent, and each path would confer benefits and limitations on those who undertook them.
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
Vote for DragonRealms on Top MUD Sites: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
I don't know how feasible it would be from a coding perspective, but instead of pigeon-holing Paladins into one particular role or moral code, I would like to see different paths, both religious and secular, that emphasized different roles. The choice would be permanent, and each path would confer benefits and limitations on those who undertook them.
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
Vote for DragonRealms on Top MUD Sites: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
