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Since the introduction of the necromancer guild, Paladins were no longer alone in being a guild that has a moral code associated with it. The others don't care which gods you serve or what type of individual you are, but once necromancers came on the scene, suddenly we have a guild that challenges the status quo. They may themselves think they can be good, but to most everyone else, they follow a strictly evil (self-serving) code. Where Paladins are supposed to be selfless, the necromancer is the complete opposite, selfish to the point they defy the gods in pursuit of power.
If you browse the Necro forums you'll see that things get pretty DEEP over there, and for good reason. I applaud this and I think it helps separate DR from the myriad mmo's out there that implement dozens of "evil" or "good" classes without any attention paid to the moral implications.
As far as paladins go, personally I've always been a bit disappointed by the overly simplistic nature of Paladins and their "goodliness". Not from the player side but rather from the ideologies it espouses. The whole Dark Paladin discussion which has waged as long as I can remember is a sign that Paladins would like a guild that is perhaps a bit more morally ambiguous. And in reality, that would suit me just fine because not all Paladins want to follow "the code" and some blatantly break it because there are no mechanisms in place to punish them for lying or being unfair or doing any number of things short of learning stealing ranks and murdering people. Am I supposed to ignore the fact that Paladins can be dishonest and deceitful and selfish and still retain every single one of their paladinly abilities? My character certainly can't continue to labor under the belief that justice is being served, so instead of trying to force people to roleplay their characters a certain way (which is impossible) an expansion of the ideology of the guild I think is necessary to not let the guild ethos be blatantly ignored with no consequences.
I've enjoyed the supposed troubles with the Council and the misalignment between their goals and the soul of the guild and I think that has a lot of room for exploration. But on a more fundamental level, I think Paladins are due for an upgrade in this realm. This idea, that the church or purity of the religion/code is being tainted by the people running it should be expanded and greatly enhanced. We need to build on this strife, build on this idea and help it shape Paladinhood as a whole.
Time for some great internal strife within the Paladin guild perhaps? At a time when their guidance and example is needed most? Necromantic sympathizers among the paladins? Influences from nefarious denizens in order to divide those most able (theoretically) to uphold order and the will of the Gods? Paladins losing their purpose when asked to uphold not only the will of Rutilor but the will of evil gods? Makes you foam at the mouth, no?
This is a time when I think the guild could use a fresh outlook. We could use a very thorough and interesting look at just what are relationship is with the Gods. Do we follow what they say directly, or are we bound to act through the words of the Council? What authority does the council actually have in the guild? This isn't exactly a world in which the gods are completely unknown quantities. Do they rule out of some notion that if what they were doing was wrong, Chadatru/Rutilor would come down and tell them?
The nature of this problem is exactly what gives Paladins the leniency to play the kinds of characters they want, but I think that roleplaying a paladin ought to be the most demanding RP choice. We are guided by principles which even we may not agree with,
and we take oaths to uphold the good, to be a shining example of good within a community. This goodliness is NOT defined by individual paladins. If that was they case, as long as you believed your actions to be the right actions, you should never suffer a loss in soul. (Not to mention anyone who believes themselves "righteous" should have access to paladin abilities).
Our character's pursuit of the good and their discipline is what makes them paladins, not because the player typed JOIN twice at a guildleader (Beren, Darius, or otherwise).
From an RP perspective, my Necro and my Paladin start from the same basic principles but come to vastly different conclusions: They both believe that the gods are super-powerful (though not all-powerful) beings that exist and manipulate the world. However, my Paladin believes that Rutilor is using his power to maintain the good, to spread justice throughout the world and thus serves him, and my Necro believes that gods (even the good ones) are just using different methods to control the populace, to keep them in line. She in fact would believe that Rutilor is one of the most foul gods because he pretends at being good instead of actually being good.
This whole Beren issue should be a vaulting point for self-reflection, not just everyone sitting around waiting for its resolution. You may not be able to change how the even plays out, but you can certainly use it as a chance to add depth to your character that goes beyond the basic "The Council sucks" vs. "No YOU suck" debate.
<<This whole Beren issue should be a vaulting point for self-reflection, not just everyone sitting around waiting for its resolution. You may not be able to change how the even plays out, but you can certainly use it as a chance to add depth to your character that goes beyond the basic "The Council sucks" vs. "No YOU suck" debate.>>
It's obvious you haven't been in this guild for very long.
-Mr. Glemm
It's obvious you haven't been in this guild for very long.
-Mr. Glemm
> The whole Dark Paladin discussion which has waged as long as I can remember is a sign that Paladins would like a guild that is perhaps a bit more morally ambiguous.
To be perfectly frank, if moral ambiguity is your thing, the Paladin Guild is absolutely not a good fit for you. Even dark paladins (should such things exist) abide by a fairly rigid code of ethics and honor. While several things will be changing over the coming weeks, that particular aspect of the guild will not. The precise definition of those ethics may see a little warping, but not their existence nor the expectation that paladins be held to higher standards than the common man.
I think once the dust has settled, why this is true may make a bit more sense.
- GM Dartenian
Though my soul may set in darkness it will rise in perfect light. I have loved the stars too fondly to be fearful of the night! - Sarah Williams
To be perfectly frank, if moral ambiguity is your thing, the Paladin Guild is absolutely not a good fit for you. Even dark paladins (should such things exist) abide by a fairly rigid code of ethics and honor. While several things will be changing over the coming weeks, that particular aspect of the guild will not. The precise definition of those ethics may see a little warping, but not their existence nor the expectation that paladins be held to higher standards than the common man.
I think once the dust has settled, why this is true may make a bit more sense.
- GM Dartenian
Though my soul may set in darkness it will rise in perfect light. I have loved the stars too fondly to be fearful of the night! - Sarah Williams
<< To be perfectly frank, if moral ambiguity is your thing, the Paladin Guild is absolutely not a good fit for you. Even dark paladins (should such things exist) abide by a fairly rigid code of ethics and honor. While several things will be changing over the coming weeks, that particular aspect of the guild will not. >>
I am not sure if I should be happy and applaud this comment, or fear what it might hint at. I do hope it is not a hint that "dark paladins" in some sense will finally be allowed (I have always hated that proposal). I am perhaps reading too much into your purposely vague words.
I am not sure if I should be happy and applaud this comment, or fear what it might hint at. I do hope it is not a hint that "dark paladins" in some sense will finally be allowed (I have always hated that proposal). I am perhaps reading too much into your purposely vague words.
I'm not sure how I feel about dark paladins, I started out my RP'ing with AD&D, so have always had that general idea about what a paladin is. However, considering that each immortal has dark, light, and neutral aspects, and there's not open war between the immortals like there is the gods in many games, it's an interesting, and very possible, idea. But, one example of an idea for dark paladins in fiction comes from the Dragonlance series of books. The Knights of Takhisis could be an interesting study to anyone thinking of playing a dark paladin should that option come about.
DRPrime - Celeres Turrance
DRPrime - Celeres Turrance
"The others don't care which gods you serve or what type of individual you are, but once necromancers came on the scene, suddenly we have a guild that challenges the status quo."
If you recall ages ago the favors that the gods provided us with was challenged by someone wielding a knife.
"And in reality, that would suit me just fine because not all Paladins want to follow "the code" and some blatantly break it because there are no mechanisms in place to punish them for lying or being unfair or doing any number of things short of learning stealing ranks and murdering people"
I can only speak from what my character has gone through in the past. When told to seek out someone who most consider an enemy by her very own council <not pallie council>, To her trying to establish peace was a prerogative. When you give your word to a so called enemy do you break the code? No, sometimes you even have to uphold your word to another when dealing with them. In my case I promised to find Althiras' old love and try to mend things and Aesry's council supported this. Even Chessel suggested I talk with him.
Sometimes you have to deal with them, to understand the changes in their life, and what caused them to become what they are, and hope to understand this and show them you are willing to help them.
For example Aedem was studing for the priesthood when he was shanghaid by Saller, The same Saller that took over Ilerthan's ship, so he would have been the one to ask what happened back then. Sometimes you have to deal with what many consider enemies, the fact is that these characters are rich in history because of what happened to them. I have always believed rather than kill it is best to understand the nuances of their characters and take the time to talk with them.
If you recall ages ago the favors that the gods provided us with was challenged by someone wielding a knife.
"And in reality, that would suit me just fine because not all Paladins want to follow "the code" and some blatantly break it because there are no mechanisms in place to punish them for lying or being unfair or doing any number of things short of learning stealing ranks and murdering people"
I can only speak from what my character has gone through in the past. When told to seek out someone who most consider an enemy by her very own council <not pallie council>, To her trying to establish peace was a prerogative. When you give your word to a so called enemy do you break the code? No, sometimes you even have to uphold your word to another when dealing with them. In my case I promised to find Althiras' old love and try to mend things and Aesry's council supported this. Even Chessel suggested I talk with him.
Sometimes you have to deal with them, to understand the changes in their life, and what caused them to become what they are, and hope to understand this and show them you are willing to help them.
For example Aedem was studing for the priesthood when he was shanghaid by Saller, The same Saller that took over Ilerthan's ship, so he would have been the one to ask what happened back then. Sometimes you have to deal with what many consider enemies, the fact is that these characters are rich in history because of what happened to them. I have always believed rather than kill it is best to understand the nuances of their characters and take the time to talk with them.
<< To be perfectly frank, if moral ambiguity is your thing, the Paladin Guild is absolutely not a good fit for you. Even dark paladins (should such things exist) abide by a fairly rigid code of ethics and honor. While several things will be changing over the coming weeks, that particular aspect of the guild will not. The precise definition of those ethics may see a little warping, but not their existence nor the expectation that paladins be held to higher standards than the common man.
I think once the dust has settled, why this is true may make a bit more sense. >>
Isn't this perhaps an oversimplification? I think it is personally possible to be bound by a rigid code of ethics and honor and still be morally ambiguous. Codes get twisted or 'interpreted', people's actions (in accordance with these codes, their own codes, etc.) get judged by outside eyes, and so on and so forth. A Paladin clinging to ethics and duty could still be seen
as 'morally ambiguous'. What about the Emerald Knights?
The current plotline is rife with moral ambiguity. I think is great. I don't feel things are black and white, and I hope they remain this way. I've had nothing but a positive experience, and I am really looking forward to seeing where you take this.
An expectation to cleave to a higher standard of ethics is great, just so long as it allows for the opportunity for us to struggle and fail at doing so.
I am almost certainly rambling at this point.
-Iskhhr
"What is the worth of one man's honor?"
I think once the dust has settled, why this is true may make a bit more sense. >>
Isn't this perhaps an oversimplification? I think it is personally possible to be bound by a rigid code of ethics and honor and still be morally ambiguous. Codes get twisted or 'interpreted', people's actions (in accordance with these codes, their own codes, etc.) get judged by outside eyes, and so on and so forth. A Paladin clinging to ethics and duty could still be seen
as 'morally ambiguous'. What about the Emerald Knights?
The current plotline is rife with moral ambiguity. I think is great. I don't feel things are black and white, and I hope they remain this way. I've had nothing but a positive experience, and I am really looking forward to seeing where you take this.
An expectation to cleave to a higher standard of ethics is great, just so long as it allows for the opportunity for us to struggle and fail at doing so.
I am almost certainly rambling at this point.
-Iskhhr
"What is the worth of one man's honor?"
>>To be perfectly frank, if moral ambiguity is your thing, the Paladin Guild is absolutely not a good fit for you. Even dark paladins (should such things exist) abide by a fairly rigid code of ethics and honor. While several things will be changing over the coming weeks, that particular aspect of the guild will not. The precise definition of those ethics may see a little warping, but not their existence nor the expectation that paladins be held to higher standards than the common man.
I'm rather eager to see where things go.
I think there's room for alternative paladin paths (I'd hesitate to use the word dark, since it seems to have certain built-in implications that might not actually apply), but they should have a distinctly Elanthian/DR feel to them. Something similar to the differences between DR's Necromancers and those of most other settings.
Looking forward to seeing what that winds up looking like.
Squire Xalahai Zayasero, Player of
"This idea may have worked in another time and another place, but here it immediately fell on its face and went 'Durp durp.'" - Armifer
I'm rather eager to see where things go.
I think there's room for alternative paladin paths (I'd hesitate to use the word dark, since it seems to have certain built-in implications that might not actually apply), but they should have a distinctly Elanthian/DR feel to them. Something similar to the differences between DR's Necromancers and those of most other settings.
Looking forward to seeing what that winds up looking like.
Squire Xalahai Zayasero, Player of
"This idea may have worked in another time and another place, but here it immediately fell on its face and went 'Durp durp.'" - Armifer
<<(I'd hesitate to use the word dark, since it seems to have certain built-in implications that might not actually apply)
In years past, as players without system support, we were never able to agree on a definition that made a majority happy. The pro-light crowd always fell back on strict, literal interpretation of the code and pointed at the lack of system mechanical support for thier reasoning. Lore was almost non-existant and was largely made up as they went along. The pro-dark crowd had to play armor-prime commoners, or just be labelled out of genre jerks.
The current event rings very true for one important argument of the pro-dark crowd ... one man's truth is another man's lie. There is now system mechanics that support heresy or the other side of light, whatever that may mean; spells with other effects, casting spells in general for that matter, soulstate based titles, lack of kneeling on death, and the Dark Hand lore.
I'm hopeful that as this event rolls through, there is opportunity to explore development in both directions from neutral. There is no reason that either side can't have its own benefits and detriments.
Let Lyras win.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdaOeAxy0GU
In years past, as players without system support, we were never able to agree on a definition that made a majority happy. The pro-light crowd always fell back on strict, literal interpretation of the code and pointed at the lack of system mechanical support for thier reasoning. Lore was almost non-existant and was largely made up as they went along. The pro-dark crowd had to play armor-prime commoners, or just be labelled out of genre jerks.
The current event rings very true for one important argument of the pro-dark crowd ... one man's truth is another man's lie. There is now system mechanics that support heresy or the other side of light, whatever that may mean; spells with other effects, casting spells in general for that matter, soulstate based titles, lack of kneeling on death, and the Dark Hand lore.
I'm hopeful that as this event rolls through, there is opportunity to explore development in both directions from neutral. There is no reason that either side can't have its own benefits and detriments.
Let Lyras win.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdaOeAxy0GU
>>Isn't this perhaps an oversimplification? I think it is personally possible to be bound by a rigid code of ethics and honor and still be morally ambiguous.
Javert or Vaeljean? The trick isn't that Javert was a lawman and Valjean a thief, or that Valjean was good and Javert was evil. Both of them upheld rigid moral codes that they chased right to the grave.
It might not matter which way the arrow goes so much, but the shaft had best be straight.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
Javert or Vaeljean? The trick isn't that Javert was a lawman and Valjean a thief, or that Valjean was good and Javert was evil. Both of them upheld rigid moral codes that they chased right to the grave.
It might not matter which way the arrow goes so much, but the shaft had best be straight.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
<<To be perfectly frank, if moral ambiguity is your thing, the Paladin Guild is absolutely not a good fit for you. >>
This is precisely my point Dart. I don't have a problem adhering to a rigid code of ethics and honor. However, that code isn't enforceable. You can be a Paladin who cheats, lies and steals (just not in a way that gains ranks) and still circle and be accepted like you're a Paragon of moral virtue. Paladins can blatantly worship evil gods or do some pretty heinous stuff and any guildleader will smile and nod like you just shined up Chadatru's boots. The game cannot and DOES NOT stop people from joining and the guild whom you would categorize as not being a good fit.
If you wanted to put the guild in a fairly hypocritical light that would be one thing. There's something intriguing about being part of a guild that preaches moral virtue but in reality does not care about the virtue of its members. That would be fine. However, there has always seemed to be this push toward the idea that the Paladin guild REALLY is good and supports justice and adheres to a strict code and everything. It just never made much sense to me.
Paladins can and DO roleplay their paladins any way they want. How can you allow for that on the one hand and still try and fit Paladins into a very specific mold?
This is precisely my point Dart. I don't have a problem adhering to a rigid code of ethics and honor. However, that code isn't enforceable. You can be a Paladin who cheats, lies and steals (just not in a way that gains ranks) and still circle and be accepted like you're a Paragon of moral virtue. Paladins can blatantly worship evil gods or do some pretty heinous stuff and any guildleader will smile and nod like you just shined up Chadatru's boots. The game cannot and DOES NOT stop people from joining and the guild whom you would categorize as not being a good fit.
If you wanted to put the guild in a fairly hypocritical light that would be one thing. There's something intriguing about being part of a guild that preaches moral virtue but in reality does not care about the virtue of its members. That would be fine. However, there has always seemed to be this push toward the idea that the Paladin guild REALLY is good and supports justice and adheres to a strict code and everything. It just never made much sense to me.
Paladins can and DO roleplay their paladins any way they want. How can you allow for that on the one hand and still try and fit Paladins into a very specific mold?
<<This is precisely my point Dart. I don't have a problem adhering to a rigid code of ethics and honor. However, that code isn't enforceable. You can be a Paladin who cheats, lies and steals (just not in a way that gains ranks) and still circle and be accepted like you're a Paragon of moral virtue. Paladins can blatantly worship evil gods or do some pretty heinous stuff and any guildleader will smile and nod like you just shined up Chadatru's boots. The game cannot and DOES NOT stop people from joining and the guild whom you would categorize as not being a good fit.>>
You could also try remembering that this is a video game and that moral choices are kinda hard to follow with game mechanics, especially "morally ambiguous" actions.
What kind of solution do you expect from Dart... or are you trying to bring the "deep conversation" from the Necro folder over here?
Sorry if I'm not being constructive but I don't see anything worth building upon.
-Mr. Glemm
You could also try remembering that this is a video game and that moral choices are kinda hard to follow with game mechanics, especially "morally ambiguous" actions.
What kind of solution do you expect from Dart... or are you trying to bring the "deep conversation" from the Necro folder over here?
Sorry if I'm not being constructive but I don't see anything worth building upon.
-Mr. Glemm
Few things to keep in mind: 1. one person's morals may be another person's sins. 2. Light and Dark are perspectives, depending on which side of the fence you're on. 3. Conscience trumps all. Yes, the guild has a pretty rigid moral code. We have the do's and don't most guilds do NOT. It doesn NOT mean, however, that there is one set answer for every situation that arises, and what mabe acceptable for situation A might not quite fit situation B. We felt our calling in different ways for different reasons, and life experiences shape our decisions. Does this make us bad for not following every little codecil and by-law to the letter? No. We're people, not mindless drones that do not take the people factor into account. If ya can look in the mirror after making a decision and not wanna hurl, more power to ya. If you can't, that's when ya need to step back and think about what yer doin, if you're on the "right path" for you.
Mr. Glemm, well put.
Dart- Shadow Clan please? ^^
Regards,
Emerald Knight Penderrin
P.S.,
Where's the cookies!?!?!?
Mr. Glemm, well put.
Dart- Shadow Clan please? ^^
Regards,
Emerald Knight Penderrin
P.S.,
Where's the cookies!?!?!?
<<What kind of solution do you expect from Dart... or are you trying to bring the "deep conversation" from the Necro folder over here? >>
Nope, just merely looking for an amplification of an existing debate in Paladin subculture that I was hoping might be able to translate to a fun ongoing, IG event.
As far as I recall, the guild hasn't seen a major crisis of faith in its history and I think it would be neat to explore that.
Maybe that's not your idea of fun.
And now here are my required use of quotation marks for the purposes of mocking and devaluing a conversation:
"worth building upon"
"this is a video game"
Nope, just merely looking for an amplification of an existing debate in Paladin subculture that I was hoping might be able to translate to a fun ongoing, IG event.
As far as I recall, the guild hasn't seen a major crisis of faith in its history and I think it would be neat to explore that.
Maybe that's not your idea of fun.
And now here are my required use of quotation marks for the purposes of mocking and devaluing a conversation:
"worth building upon"
"this is a video game"
