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I still hold the belief that a Paladin Code is necessary. And to explain a bit better, I would answer the arguments against one:
It creates 'cookie cutter' paladins - Probably the best argument against a Code and made by many good friends of mine when I raise the issue and a very valid concern. The Code would outline things that (in my opinion) should be central to all paladins regardless of the god(s) they follow or what skills they focus on. In short, the Code should be about central ideas such as integrity, honor, loyalty, humility as traits of a paladin.
Great idea Madigan, but how do you enforce it? Another very valid concern. Why in the world draft something and it just gather dust? Enforcement (in my opinion) would be the province of the guildleader for each province. In short, each paladin (of a sufficient circle) could REPORT another Paladin for failing to follow the Code. The REPORT would allow you to state, in detail, the W's (who, what, when, where) of what you saw. The P-Team would then have the OPTION to have the guildleader act on that REPORT by verifying the information.
Finally, who cares Madigan, let everyone be themselves! Well friends, I submit that our guild is different. That each paladin should act with certain traits (duty, loyalty, honor, humility) is self-evident in my mind. Is it hard...you bet. That is why not everyone can (or should) be a paladin. I believe that we are a cut above everyone else, and should conduct ourselves in such manner.
Thank you advance for your consideration and opinions on this matter.
Madigan
>Great idea Madigan, but how do you enforce it? Another very valid concern. Why in the world draft something and it just gather dust? Enforcement (in my opinion) would be the province of the guildleader for each province. In short, each paladin (of a sufficient circle) could REPORT another Paladin for failing to follow the Code. The REPORT would allow you to state, in detail, the W's (who, what, when, where) of what you saw. The P-Team would then have the OPTION to have the guildleader act on that REPORT by verifying the information.
Wouldn't this eat up a lot of GM time sorting through reports? Either we should police ourselves regarding the new code, if one appears, or there need to be more measures preventing someone from wasting GM time by just throwing out useless reports of gray-area code issues over and over. If this system goes in, I would say one report per day per paladin and a certain paladin must be reported by at least 3 paladins before the reports are even looked at, for minimum restrictions.
Another reason I don't believe the code should be enforced by GMs is that this is a guild. A place of training. Not every paladin is going to be perfect coming in the gate and not anyone is going to reach perfection, either, unless the character being roleplayed is a plastic character. I don't care how much of a pinnacle of righteousness a paladin is, if they don't get angry, if they aren't tempted, if they don't have fears, they are not a real person, and playing plastic characters should not be encouraged.
If we ever do get a code - which, ironically, is written on a wall in the Temple of Light but unreadable - it should be something that paladins are encouraged to follow, and praised when they do follow in times when most would fall short. It would be a high calling, an unattainable goal. You can follow all of the code some of the time and some of the code all of the time, but not all of the code all of the time. The path of the paladin is the attempt to reach that lofty, but unreachable goal, to slowly grow to the limits of sanity, with perhaps a few crossing over into insanity, merely to attempt to reach it.
This, of course, completely ignores the contents of the code, as I definitely do not want to get into that debate, but the above would apply if the code merely stated that all paladins must eat nothing but peppermint for all their lives.
Player of Linras Cauldrath
Wouldn't this eat up a lot of GM time sorting through reports? Either we should police ourselves regarding the new code, if one appears, or there need to be more measures preventing someone from wasting GM time by just throwing out useless reports of gray-area code issues over and over. If this system goes in, I would say one report per day per paladin and a certain paladin must be reported by at least 3 paladins before the reports are even looked at, for minimum restrictions.
Another reason I don't believe the code should be enforced by GMs is that this is a guild. A place of training. Not every paladin is going to be perfect coming in the gate and not anyone is going to reach perfection, either, unless the character being roleplayed is a plastic character. I don't care how much of a pinnacle of righteousness a paladin is, if they don't get angry, if they aren't tempted, if they don't have fears, they are not a real person, and playing plastic characters should not be encouraged.
If we ever do get a code - which, ironically, is written on a wall in the Temple of Light but unreadable - it should be something that paladins are encouraged to follow, and praised when they do follow in times when most would fall short. It would be a high calling, an unattainable goal. You can follow all of the code some of the time and some of the code all of the time, but not all of the code all of the time. The path of the paladin is the attempt to reach that lofty, but unreachable goal, to slowly grow to the limits of sanity, with perhaps a few crossing over into insanity, merely to attempt to reach it.
This, of course, completely ignores the contents of the code, as I definitely do not want to get into that debate, but the above would apply if the code merely stated that all paladins must eat nothing but peppermint for all their lives.
Player of Linras Cauldrath
Enforcement of the code or manifesto will be hard to do on some levels. While the special REPORT would work in theory, in practice it would also require a lot of time, and more than likely just one person - probably me. We hope that when the manifesto is ready for release, we'll already have some more punishments set in place for code breakers. But parts of the manifesto just cannot be policed and it will be left to roleplay.
~M
~M
> Enforcement of the code or manifesto will be hard to do on some levels. While the special REPORT would work in theory, in practice it would also require a lot of time, and more than likely just one person - probably me. We hope that when the manifesto is ready for release, we'll already have some more punishments set in place for code breakers. But parts of the manifesto just cannot be policed and it will be left to roleplay.
I'd like to see us have a meeting in Plat about this... because as we know from the Thieves guild... we can be much more strict in Plat about codes and such.
Serrin
I'd like to see us have a meeting in Plat about this... because as we know from the Thieves guild... we can be much more strict in Plat about codes and such.
Serrin
>Just like Rock usedta say... we personalla know what the guild is about, even if we go about workin our objectives in different ways.<
As you can see by the conflicts folder alone, this is and has been proven to be false over and over again by the very people who have no idea what this guild is about.
Krymson.
As you can see by the conflicts folder alone, this is and has been proven to be false over and over again by the very people who have no idea what this guild is about.
Krymson.
Appreciate the responses. Personally, I think it is doable. A bit of a summary of responses thus far and a short response:
1. Doable but GM's will never go for it. Maece answered this one for us mostly. However, the REPORT option (reporting the guildleader that is) should still be an arrow in our quiver. If our powers above don't want, have time, or care to respond then that is simply the end of it. Without that ability, the GM's may never know of what is going on with most paladins. At least this allows them to monitor the issue (assuming that there is a Code or Manifesto and there is a violation).
2. Doable but it becomes a popularity contest. No real answer for this because it may very well be true. I would like to think that I would have no problems reporting a fellow paladin for a violation of the Code or Manifesto, but upon contemplation...I would be very hesitant to report a fellow paladin who has a 'good' history. I don't know if that is a bad thing.
3. My favorite...get me a decoder ring! Well said, but in this instance not necessary. Due respect to the elder brother that stated this, however I personally have never needed a decoder to know if one possesses integrity, honor, selfless service and humility. I feel very confident that people will be judged by their actions.
Madigan
1. Doable but GM's will never go for it. Maece answered this one for us mostly. However, the REPORT option (reporting the guildleader that is) should still be an arrow in our quiver. If our powers above don't want, have time, or care to respond then that is simply the end of it. Without that ability, the GM's may never know of what is going on with most paladins. At least this allows them to monitor the issue (assuming that there is a Code or Manifesto and there is a violation).
2. Doable but it becomes a popularity contest. No real answer for this because it may very well be true. I would like to think that I would have no problems reporting a fellow paladin for a violation of the Code or Manifesto, but upon contemplation...I would be very hesitant to report a fellow paladin who has a 'good' history. I don't know if that is a bad thing.
3. My favorite...get me a decoder ring! Well said, but in this instance not necessary. Due respect to the elder brother that stated this, however I personally have never needed a decoder to know if one possesses integrity, honor, selfless service and humility. I feel very confident that people will be judged by their actions.
Madigan
<<As you can see by the conflicts folder alone, this is and has been proven to be false over and over again by the very people who have no idea what this guild is about.>>
Glad that you can read posts by people and decide what their worth asa paladin is, Krymson.
Course, you ain't around to see any actions or results, but hey, who was it that was talkin bout Lennon passin judgement on people, huh?
Glad that you can read posts by people and decide what their worth asa paladin is, Krymson.
Course, you ain't around to see any actions or results, but hey, who was it that was talkin bout Lennon passin judgement on people, huh?
>Glad that you can read posts by people and decide what their worth asa paladin is, Krymson.<
Considering they are posting about what is and isn't acceptable in the Paladin guild, your damn right I can tell what is and isn't acceptable. Is it up to me however to define that? No. That is up to the guild in its entirety or a GM to define the guild. Until that time I measure them up however I wish, and will continue to post when I feel a need to counter an argument.
And that was me talking about Lennon passing judgement in terms of sentencing someone by taking their weapon away. If your not capable of making that distinction...that seems like a personal problem.
Considering they are posting about what is and isn't acceptable in the Paladin guild, your damn right I can tell what is and isn't acceptable. Is it up to me however to define that? No. That is up to the guild in its entirety or a GM to define the guild. Until that time I measure them up however I wish, and will continue to post when I feel a need to counter an argument.
And that was me talking about Lennon passing judgement in terms of sentencing someone by taking their weapon away. If your not capable of making that distinction...that seems like a personal problem.
>Great idea, really. But I don't think PCs are responsible.
There are different kinds of paladins, and several things that they have in common. Perhaps a few paladins can come up with "Schools of Thought." Codes that apply to the kind of paladin they are/were. I've been thinking of doing a Hegemonic Code before Hege left the realms, presumptious I know, as a contribution to the debate about having a paladin code. Others could do so as well, or ask people they know who exemplify the kind of paladin they try to be to make a contribution.
Geof/Hege
There are different kinds of paladins, and several things that they have in common. Perhaps a few paladins can come up with "Schools of Thought." Codes that apply to the kind of paladin they are/were. I've been thinking of doing a Hegemonic Code before Hege left the realms, presumptious I know, as a contribution to the debate about having a paladin code. Others could do so as well, or ask people they know who exemplify the kind of paladin they try to be to make a contribution.
Geof/Hege
Hence schools of thought, For instance when the guild leaders get together and meet they'd have discussions on some of the topics of the day, and situations their local paladins have been getting into. They'd discuss what each of them would do in that particular paladins situation, and I'm sure the answers would not be the same and as varied as any 4 paladins talking about anything in the same room.
However, these ideas and veiwpoints from each guild leader, if official and put in a form that comes as a document to teach their ideals to other paladins could be schools of thought. You could have a Dariusian school of thought or Dariusian code, a Snowian code, a Cleworthian code, or use other GMPC's or even PC's (Rockian code.. ::Drool:: hehe)
No one wants to restrict roleplay, however there needs to be ways to curb the most obvious extremes and narrow the definitions of appropriate conduct to at least a minimum standard, even extreme codes would draw lines somewhere, and those lines would create that minimum standard.
Hege
However, these ideas and veiwpoints from each guild leader, if official and put in a form that comes as a document to teach their ideals to other paladins could be schools of thought. You could have a Dariusian school of thought or Dariusian code, a Snowian code, a Cleworthian code, or use other GMPC's or even PC's (Rockian code.. ::Drool:: hehe)
No one wants to restrict roleplay, however there needs to be ways to curb the most obvious extremes and narrow the definitions of appropriate conduct to at least a minimum standard, even extreme codes would draw lines somewhere, and those lines would create that minimum standard.
Hege
>>No one wants to restrict roleplay, however there needs to be ways to curb the most obvious extremes and narrow the definitions of appropriate conduct to at least a minimum standard, even extreme codes would draw lines somewhere, and those lines would create that minimum standard.
Yea, but the extremes are all relative as to what is counted as extreme.
For sake of using a comparison that's up to date but not 'real world topics', I'll use Warcraft 3's Arthas.
Guy finds out evil doom master is poisoning grain, and anyone poisoned becomes undead in moments. Arthas finds out half a town is infected. Arthas kills that half of the town.
Now, he killed dozens of innocents, but he saves dozens of innocents too. Killing innocents is wrong, but this was an extreme.
Later on, his troops are told to return home and give up chasing after evil doom master. He sneaks away and sinks the ships that were to transport them back, and then claims the undead did it. Now, he lied and did wrong, but did so in order to kill a greater evil that they now have cornered. Right or wrong?
Those are grand-scale comparisons, but can still be used scaled down. And I'm certain noone will agree on what is good and what is bad :)
Yea, but the extremes are all relative as to what is counted as extreme.
For sake of using a comparison that's up to date but not 'real world topics', I'll use Warcraft 3's Arthas.
Guy finds out evil doom master is poisoning grain, and anyone poisoned becomes undead in moments. Arthas finds out half a town is infected. Arthas kills that half of the town.
Now, he killed dozens of innocents, but he saves dozens of innocents too. Killing innocents is wrong, but this was an extreme.
Later on, his troops are told to return home and give up chasing after evil doom master. He sneaks away and sinks the ships that were to transport them back, and then claims the undead did it. Now, he lied and did wrong, but did so in order to kill a greater evil that they now have cornered. Right or wrong?
Those are grand-scale comparisons, but can still be used scaled down. And I'm certain noone will agree on what is good and what is bad :)
You know.... this could come back around to the "sects" idea I presented (and I'm sure many others have). You dedicate yourself to a certain specific diety, with tight rules and restrictions based on their ethos, and because you invest that level of dedication, and conform to the related rules, you get a little something extra for it.... be it RP visual cool, or actually useful.
There would be a LOT of paladins that would not want to deal with that level of dedication, so it truly would be something extra for those willing to actually RP a dedicated paladin.
Serrin
There would be a LOT of paladins that would not want to deal with that level of dedication, so it truly would be something extra for those willing to actually RP a dedicated paladin.
Serrin
I see your point Pureblade, but that sort of thing is something that defines a paladin.
To me the choices you make determine what kind of paladin you are, and are what being a paladin is all about. When you come to a decision you have to decide, which is more important? Sticking to what is right, or what is the greater good? Which is more important, the life of the one, or the greater good of the many?
These philosophical decisions are why paladins have to worry about their soul, and learn to live with the hard decisions they are forced to make as leaders of men. The idea would not be to restrict the options a paladin has when confronted with these decisions, but lay down a groundwork that would guide the paladin to one of the possible decisions based on the beliefs of his elders (Assuming there were codes based on the beliefs of guild leaders). If you respect Darius and his line of thinking, you could see in his code (that which he teaches the paladins that are in the locality of his guild) what the person you respect would do in this situation. So if you have two possible options in a situation you would know which your guild leader would lean toward. Then you have to decide if you can live with the consequences of that decision, and if so choose it, or decide you cannot and choose the other.
The idea of sects to me is too rigid, we are all paladins, and we should stick together not fragment any more then is natural. These different veiwpoints of our roles as leaders of men, justice entities, and scholars are natural as anything else that deals with the relations between people within an organization. A sect to me means that I believe in what I feel so strongly that I cannot be a part of what you others within my guild believe.
Another idea for codes would be that since most paladins follow the gods in general, but one god specifically (or the all-god) that codes would come down for those who service different gods. A Alamhif paladin would be much different in the code they follow from a paladin that primarily follows trothfang for example.
Hege/Geof
To me the choices you make determine what kind of paladin you are, and are what being a paladin is all about. When you come to a decision you have to decide, which is more important? Sticking to what is right, or what is the greater good? Which is more important, the life of the one, or the greater good of the many?
These philosophical decisions are why paladins have to worry about their soul, and learn to live with the hard decisions they are forced to make as leaders of men. The idea would not be to restrict the options a paladin has when confronted with these decisions, but lay down a groundwork that would guide the paladin to one of the possible decisions based on the beliefs of his elders (Assuming there were codes based on the beliefs of guild leaders). If you respect Darius and his line of thinking, you could see in his code (that which he teaches the paladins that are in the locality of his guild) what the person you respect would do in this situation. So if you have two possible options in a situation you would know which your guild leader would lean toward. Then you have to decide if you can live with the consequences of that decision, and if so choose it, or decide you cannot and choose the other.
The idea of sects to me is too rigid, we are all paladins, and we should stick together not fragment any more then is natural. These different veiwpoints of our roles as leaders of men, justice entities, and scholars are natural as anything else that deals with the relations between people within an organization. A sect to me means that I believe in what I feel so strongly that I cannot be a part of what you others within my guild believe.
Another idea for codes would be that since most paladins follow the gods in general, but one god specifically (or the all-god) that codes would come down for those who service different gods. A Alamhif paladin would be much different in the code they follow from a paladin that primarily follows trothfang for example.
Hege/Geof
<<A Alamhif paladin would be much different in the code they follow from a paladin that primarily follows trothfang for example.
Hege/Geof>>
I like this view of a paladin's identity and code. Though Im not firmly set yet on what a paladin is in DR, I have my opinion so far. I see paladins as the military extension of the gods they serve. As the clerics are the spiritual leaders who people look to for prayer and spiritual guidance, paladins are those who represent the military aspect that is necessary since war in Elanthia is inevitable. They are to enforce the ideals of the god(s) they serve through military prowess and strategy where a priest would do so in more diplomatic methods.
Whether paladin A believes enforcing this means striking out aggressively (possibly even persecution) at entities who pose a threat to the best interest of his god's ideals or he feels this means taking a more defensive role in protecting and preserving the followers and clerics of that particular god and his/her interests so the followers can go about their daily tasks set forth upon them by that diety.
The later is simply an example but I have viewed paladins in Elanthia as the military force of their particular god which means there would of course be no one way of doing things since there is so much variety in the immortals characteristics.
What does that mean in terms of a code? Hard to say since there are so many gods and aspects to follow. The code of chivalry was a lot easier because it followed the guidelines of one specific God in which they could conform to and agree much easier.
Brandon
Hege/Geof>>
I like this view of a paladin's identity and code. Though Im not firmly set yet on what a paladin is in DR, I have my opinion so far. I see paladins as the military extension of the gods they serve. As the clerics are the spiritual leaders who people look to for prayer and spiritual guidance, paladins are those who represent the military aspect that is necessary since war in Elanthia is inevitable. They are to enforce the ideals of the god(s) they serve through military prowess and strategy where a priest would do so in more diplomatic methods.
Whether paladin A believes enforcing this means striking out aggressively (possibly even persecution) at entities who pose a threat to the best interest of his god's ideals or he feels this means taking a more defensive role in protecting and preserving the followers and clerics of that particular god and his/her interests so the followers can go about their daily tasks set forth upon them by that diety.
The later is simply an example but I have viewed paladins in Elanthia as the military force of their particular god which means there would of course be no one way of doing things since there is so much variety in the immortals characteristics.
What does that mean in terms of a code? Hard to say since there are so many gods and aspects to follow. The code of chivalry was a lot easier because it followed the guidelines of one specific God in which they could conform to and agree much easier.
Brandon
>The idea of sects to me is too rigid, we are all paladins, and we should stick together not fragment any more then is natural. These different veiwpoints of our roles as leaders of men, justice entities, and scholars are natural as anything else that deals with the relations between people within an organization. A sect to me means that I believe in what I feel so strongly that I cannot be a part of what you others within my guild believe.<
The post was a great one but I have to disagree with the above statement. Paladins and Knights in medieval society didn't stick together either. They fought for various lords or churches or beliefs which varied in nature and often they fought against one another because of conflicts of interests. Now granted they weren't in sects, they were under different banners and orders but there was serious diversity nonetheless.
A sect doesn't mean that one feels so strongly that they have to separate themselves off from the pack, it means that although the sect still carries the same goal as the whole, how they get there is different. As Seihjin stated, Paladins could be viewed as the militaristic extension of the gods they serve. As such they all believe in protecting and upholding the views of the entire pantheon of the gods as well as the chivalry of the guild itself, however, because there is such diversity in the pantheon you cannot expect one Paladin that is a follower of a Chadatru to hold the same virtues and beliefs as a follower of Urrem'tier.
Now where you could have an argument is if you think that all Paladins should follow the gods in their entirety. But the issue with this is that we are mortals whom are just as diverse if not more than the gods themselves. Because of this just as with real life, you cannot hold a people to follow one particular faith. Hell in real life you hear often about what a handfull of gods that worshipped today (i.e. I realize there are many more but I'm talking the more popular that you hear on a day to day basis)? Allah, Budah, God, etc. and the thing is, if you read most of the books around these religions there are many similarities and you know as well as I do that the people of these different religions disagree all the time. So now imagine what a people under 13 gods, many of which purposely and directly oppose one another, would do.
To be honest it's no small wonder why the guild hasn't torn itself usunder with squabbles over differences of oppinion, religion, virtues, etc. Because today there is no direction and no paths to allow the freedom of individuality. Sure people do it anyway, but I guarantee the majority constantly think how rediculous it is that the Paladin next to them that worships Damaris has the same expectations, magic, glyphs, abilities, code, etc that they do worshipping Hodierna.
There is always someone in anything that requires conformity to stand up and ask the question why? In todays world in most cases that person that asks the question why, can fight for their rights, change how people view things, and eventually change the conformity to diversity. In Elanthia few people really fight the system and be who they want to be regardless of how the GMs or some guild master says it should be. Personally I think the GMs are short sighted for not diversifying the Clerics and Paladins long ago considering the possibilities it brings, but regardless it's simple common sense to me that mortals would try to mimic the diversity of the immortals..and the Paladin guild is no less subject to that than any other guild.
Krymson/Mike
The post was a great one but I have to disagree with the above statement. Paladins and Knights in medieval society didn't stick together either. They fought for various lords or churches or beliefs which varied in nature and often they fought against one another because of conflicts of interests. Now granted they weren't in sects, they were under different banners and orders but there was serious diversity nonetheless.
A sect doesn't mean that one feels so strongly that they have to separate themselves off from the pack, it means that although the sect still carries the same goal as the whole, how they get there is different. As Seihjin stated, Paladins could be viewed as the militaristic extension of the gods they serve. As such they all believe in protecting and upholding the views of the entire pantheon of the gods as well as the chivalry of the guild itself, however, because there is such diversity in the pantheon you cannot expect one Paladin that is a follower of a Chadatru to hold the same virtues and beliefs as a follower of Urrem'tier.
Now where you could have an argument is if you think that all Paladins should follow the gods in their entirety. But the issue with this is that we are mortals whom are just as diverse if not more than the gods themselves. Because of this just as with real life, you cannot hold a people to follow one particular faith. Hell in real life you hear often about what a handfull of gods that worshipped today (i.e. I realize there are many more but I'm talking the more popular that you hear on a day to day basis)? Allah, Budah, God, etc. and the thing is, if you read most of the books around these religions there are many similarities and you know as well as I do that the people of these different religions disagree all the time. So now imagine what a people under 13 gods, many of which purposely and directly oppose one another, would do.
To be honest it's no small wonder why the guild hasn't torn itself usunder with squabbles over differences of oppinion, religion, virtues, etc. Because today there is no direction and no paths to allow the freedom of individuality. Sure people do it anyway, but I guarantee the majority constantly think how rediculous it is that the Paladin next to them that worships Damaris has the same expectations, magic, glyphs, abilities, code, etc that they do worshipping Hodierna.
There is always someone in anything that requires conformity to stand up and ask the question why? In todays world in most cases that person that asks the question why, can fight for their rights, change how people view things, and eventually change the conformity to diversity. In Elanthia few people really fight the system and be who they want to be regardless of how the GMs or some guild master says it should be. Personally I think the GMs are short sighted for not diversifying the Clerics and Paladins long ago considering the possibilities it brings, but regardless it's simple common sense to me that mortals would try to mimic the diversity of the immortals..and the Paladin guild is no less subject to that than any other guild.
Krymson/Mike
The central argument of the ends justifying the means, in my opinion, will never be resolved. However, regardless of your opinion on that subject, there are central traits every paladin should have. For example, I would suggest one trait that no one would question is one of integrity.
Whether you kill half the town to save the other (See Pureblades example in previous post), does not impact whether you have integrity. Our word should be our bond. When you give an oath (whether it be to CHadatru, the Baron, the Prince, or to a total stranger), you should honor your oath to your utmost ability. And, finally, when no one is looking, you should have the fortitude to do the right thing. Friends, that is integrity.
Anyway, I would hope that we could find a set of common traits that would define a paladin, such as integrity.
Great posts on the issue friends.
Madigan
Whether you kill half the town to save the other (See Pureblades example in previous post), does not impact whether you have integrity. Our word should be our bond. When you give an oath (whether it be to CHadatru, the Baron, the Prince, or to a total stranger), you should honor your oath to your utmost ability. And, finally, when no one is looking, you should have the fortitude to do the right thing. Friends, that is integrity.
Anyway, I would hope that we could find a set of common traits that would define a paladin, such as integrity.
Great posts on the issue friends.
Madigan
>The central argument of the ends justifying the means, in my opinion, will never be resolved. However, regardless of your opinion on that subject, there are central traits every paladin should have. For example, I would suggest one trait that no one would question is one of integrity.<
I am torn by this. Because on one hand I absolutely agree and think that Paladins should honor their code or virtues of chivalry just as much as they do the edicts of their patron. On the other hand what do you do when a Paladin worships a god whom doesn't believe in integrity?
Now where you would comeback is to say that then the person is not a Paladin and I would counter by saying is not a warrior bound by their devout religion to champion a cause a Paladin? And I would take it a step further to ask that do you not think that a god of evil or darkness would be interested any less than one of light to have mortal devoted champions that protect and uphold their particular faith? Doubtful.
I would love to be able to say that perhaps Paladins do not follow the aspects of the gods but rather the gods themselves which then keeps it more toward neutral dark and light as opposed to good vs. evil. That way you could make the case of that some things should be unified throughout the guild no matter what sect the Paladin is from.
Just some thoughts,
Krymson
I am torn by this. Because on one hand I absolutely agree and think that Paladins should honor their code or virtues of chivalry just as much as they do the edicts of their patron. On the other hand what do you do when a Paladin worships a god whom doesn't believe in integrity?
Now where you would comeback is to say that then the person is not a Paladin and I would counter by saying is not a warrior bound by their devout religion to champion a cause a Paladin? And I would take it a step further to ask that do you not think that a god of evil or darkness would be interested any less than one of light to have mortal devoted champions that protect and uphold their particular faith? Doubtful.
I would love to be able to say that perhaps Paladins do not follow the aspects of the gods but rather the gods themselves which then keeps it more toward neutral dark and light as opposed to good vs. evil. That way you could make the case of that some things should be unified throughout the guild no matter what sect the Paladin is from.
Just some thoughts,
Krymson
Great question Krymson. For example, let's take a dark aspect and assume someone wants to (or does) worship that aspect.
Let's further assume that aspect is the god of liars, cheats, and thieves.
The question, of course, is whether one can have integrity and worship this aspect? I suggest, yes you can. In fact, in holding true to your beliefs to this god, you would show your integrity, i.e. you have an oath to this aspect and you should follow it. Or, maybe you have sworn to defend those aforementioned traits (liars, cheats and/or thieves), as long as you honor your sworn oath, you have integrity and honor. Now, if on the side, you don't condone cheating, lying or thieves does that matter? I don't think so, as long as you support your oaths.
In short, it is not WHAT you believe (as we are all different as Madigan and Krymson are very different) but HOW you believe, that should form the foundation for the Code.
I do hope this explains my thoughts on the matter.
Madigan
Let's further assume that aspect is the god of liars, cheats, and thieves.
The question, of course, is whether one can have integrity and worship this aspect? I suggest, yes you can. In fact, in holding true to your beliefs to this god, you would show your integrity, i.e. you have an oath to this aspect and you should follow it. Or, maybe you have sworn to defend those aforementioned traits (liars, cheats and/or thieves), as long as you honor your sworn oath, you have integrity and honor. Now, if on the side, you don't condone cheating, lying or thieves does that matter? I don't think so, as long as you support your oaths.
In short, it is not WHAT you believe (as we are all different as Madigan and Krymson are very different) but HOW you believe, that should form the foundation for the Code.
I do hope this explains my thoughts on the matter.
Madigan
>Krymson>The post was a great one but I have to disagree with the above statement. Paladins and Knights in medieval society didn't stick together either. They fought for various lords or churches or beliefs which varied in nature and often they fought against one another because of conflicts of interests. Now granted they weren't in sects, they were under different banners and orders but there was serious diversity nonetheless.
I'd hold that this is still the case. In medieval times all knights fought in the name of god, but they had different employers and would fight amongst themselves. Paladins of DR tend to have the same employers (a province, an organization) or are self employed (knight errants, dedicated to ideals and no one person). If the situation arose where two provinces went to war, paladins would fight on each side as their loyalties are varied and there is that natural splitting of opinions within our group. Which would lead to a similar situation as you propose. So what I'm saying is what you say happened in medieval times is here in DR, there has just never been a reason to go to those extremes.
>A sect doesn't mean that one feels so strongly that they have to separate themselves off from the pack, it means that although the sect still carries the same goal as the whole, how they get there is different. As Seihjin stated, Paladins could be viewed as the militaristic extension of the gods they serve. As such they all believe in protecting and upholding the views of the entire pantheon of the gods as well as the chivalry of the guild itself, however, because there is such diversity in the pantheon you cannot expect one Paladin that is a follower of a Chadatru to hold the same virtues and beliefs as a follower of Urrem'tier.
Perhaps a sect is too strong a word for what I'm thinking about. I don't want to see paladins going down a path where they are excluded from the abilities of other paths and have a differing enough opinions of what being a paladin is. To me if that is the case, where one group has different abilities and beliefs, then it is a sect. A difference of opinion, but agreement that we are all pretty much heading to the same goal (if via different paths) is more a school of thought then a sect. Hopefully that clarifies what I meant.
>Now where you could have an argument is if you think that all Paladins should follow the gods in their entirety.
Well I think all gods should be respected and acknolwedged. I RP a dwarf who has a strong "let's just all get along" attitude. The violence and senseless distruction of trothfang's "oooo, there's a city! Let me pop it like a zit!!" mentality is something he'd never want to take a part of. But that doesn't mean there aren't lessons to be learned in trothfang's teachings, and that the god should be placated by worshipers (as I'd invision some trothfang cults would be placaters of the gods instead of actively acting in a manner trothfang would). Much how athens was the city of athena, other gods like zeus, apollo, etc, all got their mention and respect.
>To be honest it's no small wonder why the guild hasn't torn itself usunder with squabbles over differences of oppinion, religion, virtues, etc.
It's all pureblade's fault. (grunts emphatically) <g>
>Madigan>The central argument of the ends justifying the means, in my opinion, will never be resolved.
I agree, if anything I would say it is the defining aspect of being a paladin.
>Krym>On the other hand what do you do when a Paladin worships a god whom doesn't believe in integrity?
Wouldn't dream of preaching to you about Urrem'tier Krym, but... to me He's the god who has more integrity then about any god. There is less personality to him, mainly void. He will take everyone to his realm, regardless of race, creed, proffession, age, gender, etc. There is no one who will ever escape his grasp, and he plays no favorites. He's less a personality and more a constant, a unrelenting force of nature and the bain of nature at the same time. =) That's just what I understand from my readings. Just like hearing peoples thoughts on their characters worship of the gods. =)
>Mad>Now, if on the side, you don't condone cheating, lying or thieves does that matter? I don't think so, as long as you support your oaths.
Well true, but what you also have to take into account is that even though you, me, and krym, are all different kinds of paladins with different veiws, there are others very much like us, and have been for all the time of the guild. Hundreds of years of philosophizing and theological debate would have gone into the worship of the gods.
By the modern DR day these groups would have not only a code, but schools of thoughts or sects devoted to the different gods that have their own rules and veiwpoints. There would be an existing "Kertigen School of Thought" and small abbey's or whatever to support those paladins who stick to and follow this veiwpoint, to teach it to others, and to further the goals of those teachings. The same for Chadatru, the same for Urrem'tier. None of us that worship one god primarily over others would be alone, if anything we'd be in an association of those with likeminded beliefs. While it is a bit much (though I've suggested it before and would love to see it) to have small abbeys for each school of thoughts belief, it would be nice to at least have that available.
Perhaps the Code is the bare minimum expected of a paladin, a wall that says "If you find yourself doing this, you are wrong. Here the ends can never justify the means." The schools of thought based on the gods can be something along the lines of the teachings of each god saying "If you find yourself doing this, you are wrong. Here the ends can never justify the means." But for the schools of thought they can conflict and be the source of debate, and better fit the different styles of RPing a paladin. But the Code contains what we all agree a paladin should do, no matter what the flavor of paladin.
Hege, vanilla paladin. hehe.
P.S. Oooo Aspasianly long post!
I'd hold that this is still the case. In medieval times all knights fought in the name of god, but they had different employers and would fight amongst themselves. Paladins of DR tend to have the same employers (a province, an organization) or are self employed (knight errants, dedicated to ideals and no one person). If the situation arose where two provinces went to war, paladins would fight on each side as their loyalties are varied and there is that natural splitting of opinions within our group. Which would lead to a similar situation as you propose. So what I'm saying is what you say happened in medieval times is here in DR, there has just never been a reason to go to those extremes.
>A sect doesn't mean that one feels so strongly that they have to separate themselves off from the pack, it means that although the sect still carries the same goal as the whole, how they get there is different. As Seihjin stated, Paladins could be viewed as the militaristic extension of the gods they serve. As such they all believe in protecting and upholding the views of the entire pantheon of the gods as well as the chivalry of the guild itself, however, because there is such diversity in the pantheon you cannot expect one Paladin that is a follower of a Chadatru to hold the same virtues and beliefs as a follower of Urrem'tier.
Perhaps a sect is too strong a word for what I'm thinking about. I don't want to see paladins going down a path where they are excluded from the abilities of other paths and have a differing enough opinions of what being a paladin is. To me if that is the case, where one group has different abilities and beliefs, then it is a sect. A difference of opinion, but agreement that we are all pretty much heading to the same goal (if via different paths) is more a school of thought then a sect. Hopefully that clarifies what I meant.
>Now where you could have an argument is if you think that all Paladins should follow the gods in their entirety.
Well I think all gods should be respected and acknolwedged. I RP a dwarf who has a strong "let's just all get along" attitude. The violence and senseless distruction of trothfang's "oooo, there's a city! Let me pop it like a zit!!" mentality is something he'd never want to take a part of. But that doesn't mean there aren't lessons to be learned in trothfang's teachings, and that the god should be placated by worshipers (as I'd invision some trothfang cults would be placaters of the gods instead of actively acting in a manner trothfang would). Much how athens was the city of athena, other gods like zeus, apollo, etc, all got their mention and respect.
>To be honest it's no small wonder why the guild hasn't torn itself usunder with squabbles over differences of oppinion, religion, virtues, etc.
It's all pureblade's fault. (grunts emphatically) <g>
>Madigan>The central argument of the ends justifying the means, in my opinion, will never be resolved.
I agree, if anything I would say it is the defining aspect of being a paladin.
>Krym>On the other hand what do you do when a Paladin worships a god whom doesn't believe in integrity?
Wouldn't dream of preaching to you about Urrem'tier Krym, but... to me He's the god who has more integrity then about any god. There is less personality to him, mainly void. He will take everyone to his realm, regardless of race, creed, proffession, age, gender, etc. There is no one who will ever escape his grasp, and he plays no favorites. He's less a personality and more a constant, a unrelenting force of nature and the bain of nature at the same time. =) That's just what I understand from my readings. Just like hearing peoples thoughts on their characters worship of the gods. =)
>Mad>Now, if on the side, you don't condone cheating, lying or thieves does that matter? I don't think so, as long as you support your oaths.
Well true, but what you also have to take into account is that even though you, me, and krym, are all different kinds of paladins with different veiws, there are others very much like us, and have been for all the time of the guild. Hundreds of years of philosophizing and theological debate would have gone into the worship of the gods.
By the modern DR day these groups would have not only a code, but schools of thoughts or sects devoted to the different gods that have their own rules and veiwpoints. There would be an existing "Kertigen School of Thought" and small abbey's or whatever to support those paladins who stick to and follow this veiwpoint, to teach it to others, and to further the goals of those teachings. The same for Chadatru, the same for Urrem'tier. None of us that worship one god primarily over others would be alone, if anything we'd be in an association of those with likeminded beliefs. While it is a bit much (though I've suggested it before and would love to see it) to have small abbeys for each school of thoughts belief, it would be nice to at least have that available.
Perhaps the Code is the bare minimum expected of a paladin, a wall that says "If you find yourself doing this, you are wrong. Here the ends can never justify the means." The schools of thought based on the gods can be something along the lines of the teachings of each god saying "If you find yourself doing this, you are wrong. Here the ends can never justify the means." But for the schools of thought they can conflict and be the source of debate, and better fit the different styles of RPing a paladin. But the Code contains what we all agree a paladin should do, no matter what the flavor of paladin.
Hege, vanilla paladin. hehe.
P.S. Oooo Aspasianly long post!
>Perhaps a sect is too strong a word for what I'm thinking about. I don't want to see paladins going down a path where they are excluded from the abilities of other paths and have a differing enough opinions of what being a paladin is. To me if that is the case, where one group has different abilities and beliefs, then it is a sect. A difference of opinion, but agreement that we are all pretty much heading to the same goal (if via different paths) is more a school of thought then a sect. Hopefully that clarifies what I meant.<
Hmm I don't know if I could completely agree here, because I don't know if I could see every path being able to share some of the same abilities of the opposing path for instance. I mean believe me I'd be happy enough just to have the path, shared abilities or not. But I think if someone was to truly get creative with it...then each path would share the core abilities of a Paladin while having different abilities or descriptions of their abilities (i.e. glyph of warding for Urrem'tier: Dark spirits twist in turn before placing a translucent blanket over the corpse providing a shield of protection against prying hands while the fate his/her soul is decided.) that are in line with the path. A poor example, but you get the point. I think paths could be just as enjoyable if the existing abilities and spells had alternative looks or descriptions fitting the path as having different abilities altogether might not be feasable.
>Well I think all gods should be respected and acknolwedged.<
Absolutely agree.
>Wouldn't dream of preaching to you about Urrem'tier Krym, but... to me He's the god who has more integrity then about any god. There is less personality to him, mainly void. He will take everyone to his realm, regardless of race, creed, proffession, age, gender, etc. There is no one who will ever escape his grasp, and he plays no favorites. He's less a personality and more a constant, a unrelenting force of nature and the bain of nature at the same time. =) That's just what I understand from my readings. Just like hearing peoples thoughts on their characters worship of the gods. =)<
No need, we are in absolute agreement here. I was speaking more to the dark aspects and how such a worshipper or Paladin of that aspect would view integrity. I consider Urrem'tier one of the neutral aspects or neutral primary god (If you look as aspects as lesser gods or secondary gods) who happens to be percieved as on the dark side of the scale because of his association with death.
Hmm I don't know if I could completely agree here, because I don't know if I could see every path being able to share some of the same abilities of the opposing path for instance. I mean believe me I'd be happy enough just to have the path, shared abilities or not. But I think if someone was to truly get creative with it...then each path would share the core abilities of a Paladin while having different abilities or descriptions of their abilities (i.e. glyph of warding for Urrem'tier: Dark spirits twist in turn before placing a translucent blanket over the corpse providing a shield of protection against prying hands while the fate his/her soul is decided.) that are in line with the path. A poor example, but you get the point. I think paths could be just as enjoyable if the existing abilities and spells had alternative looks or descriptions fitting the path as having different abilities altogether might not be feasable.
>Well I think all gods should be respected and acknolwedged.<
Absolutely agree.
>Wouldn't dream of preaching to you about Urrem'tier Krym, but... to me He's the god who has more integrity then about any god. There is less personality to him, mainly void. He will take everyone to his realm, regardless of race, creed, proffession, age, gender, etc. There is no one who will ever escape his grasp, and he plays no favorites. He's less a personality and more a constant, a unrelenting force of nature and the bain of nature at the same time. =) That's just what I understand from my readings. Just like hearing peoples thoughts on their characters worship of the gods. =)<
No need, we are in absolute agreement here. I was speaking more to the dark aspects and how such a worshipper or Paladin of that aspect would view integrity. I consider Urrem'tier one of the neutral aspects or neutral primary god (If you look as aspects as lesser gods or secondary gods) who happens to be percieved as on the dark side of the scale because of his association with death.
<<Hege: But the Code contains what we all agree a paladin should do, no matter what the flavor of paladin.>>
Precisely. Hege, as always a well thought out post on your part very Asp'ish but good reading.
Bottom line: No matter who you worship, I have a strong sense that we all believe a paladin should have certain qualities. That, in my opinion, is what we should codify.
Madigan
Precisely. Hege, as always a well thought out post on your part very Asp'ish but good reading.
Bottom line: No matter who you worship, I have a strong sense that we all believe a paladin should have certain qualities. That, in my opinion, is what we should codify.
Madigan
>>Bottom line: No matter who you worship, I have a strong sense that we all believe a paladin should have certain qualities. That, in my opinion, is what we should codify.
Agree completely.
But I also know some Paladins (me, at least) are willing to sacrafice upholding those qualities in order to do what they feel is right and proper and just and etc etc etc.
Agree completely.
But I also know some Paladins (me, at least) are willing to sacrafice upholding those qualities in order to do what they feel is right and proper and just and etc etc etc.
>But I also know some Paladins (me, at least) are willing to sacrafice upholding those qualities in order to do what they feel is right and proper and just and etc etc etc.
Yup, which to me goes back to the ends justifying the means being the central issue of any paladin's life, there is no answer as the situation and the paladin dictate that outcome. The code and any schools of thought should be guides on what outcome will happen. If the code is broken, the question is can a paladin live with the consequences to his soul? The soul system is a mechanical punishment system for when we decide the ends do justify the means, but that takes only the most extreme abuses into account, for everything else it is RP.
Hege/Geof, damn I need to find me a mountain to sit on in Forfehdahr and just dispence wisdom like a dali lama. (nods) <g>
Yup, which to me goes back to the ends justifying the means being the central issue of any paladin's life, there is no answer as the situation and the paladin dictate that outcome. The code and any schools of thought should be guides on what outcome will happen. If the code is broken, the question is can a paladin live with the consequences to his soul? The soul system is a mechanical punishment system for when we decide the ends do justify the means, but that takes only the most extreme abuses into account, for everything else it is RP.
Hege/Geof, damn I need to find me a mountain to sit on in Forfehdahr and just dispence wisdom like a dali lama. (nods) <g>
