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Perhaps I am just being foolish here, but why in the world would stealing, killing, etc. be necessarily things paladins shouldn't do?
Now, before people start getting upset, let me explain why I said necessarily. Paladins (despite what you might be lead to believe by looking at the items available to them and seeing their guild hall) do not have to follow Chadatru. If they did, I could completely understand not stealing, murdering, lieing, etc... but what if you are a paladin who is a devout follower of Damarris, or Aldauth? Surely then being the sword and shield of your diety would have a very different meaning than truth and justice. Or what of the followers of the All-God? Wouldn't stealing, deception, and murder all be just the different side of the same coin that holds protection, honor, and truth? It may be that a paladin of that faith would consider it their duty to experience all aspects of life, or maybe to strive for balance in all things.
Simply because the leaders of the guild follow gods that preach righteousness, doesn't mean that is what every (or even any) paladin should do. They are but mortals, and if they do not speak for the diety (or dieties) that another paladin worships, why should the other paladins listen to what they say is "law"?
It just seems an incredibly ethnocentric view that in a world where there are gods for every aspect of mortal character, the warriors that act as their champions would be bound to follow rules that only reflect a small portion of that diversity. It seems most likely to me that the idea of what a paladin should be was taken from other sources and not changed appropriately to fit into the polytheistic world of Elanthia.
Food for thought: in Elanthia, "holy" does not necessarily have anything to do with being honorable or truthful.
>Food for thought: in Elanthia, "holy" does not necessarily have anything to do with being honorable or truthful.
this argument has been beat to death again and again, I will say one thing to you, did you even listen to the guild leader when you joined our guild? dont recall the words 'shinning example' ?? or did you just join the guild for the nifty armor bonus? it is the guild leader who lets you join our guild and if you dont like what the guild leaders instruct you then maybe you joined the wrong guild. I hardly see stealing and rubbish to be a shinning example of a Paladin
Michael.
this argument has been beat to death again and again, I will say one thing to you, did you even listen to the guild leader when you joined our guild? dont recall the words 'shinning example' ?? or did you just join the guild for the nifty armor bonus? it is the guild leader who lets you join our guild and if you dont like what the guild leaders instruct you then maybe you joined the wrong guild. I hardly see stealing and rubbish to be a shinning example of a Paladin
Michael.
Well I have to say, unfortunately, I expected exactly this kind of a response.
First off, you never really read my post, you just saw the main topic and responded. I distinctly mentioned the guild leaders in my post... they represent only certain gods, and therefore have very skewed perspectives. The guild leaders are just people too... they are not gods, their word is not law.
The paladins in DR are based on christian and/or D&D paladins, and don't in any way take into account the religious system of Elanthia. There are 13 core gods that a paladin can follow, and some of those are not opposed (and in fact may even support) things like stealing. Hell, ALL of the 13 have negative aspects that would support murder, theft, you name it. So in essense the paladin guild as it stands now basically says "you can't worship who you choose... you worship who we choose for you."
If you could step outside the christian, montheistic, OOC viewpoint that holy and righteous are the same thing, maybe you could see the logic of my point. In Elanthia good and evil don't exactly apply - it's more like light and dark - and there are gods the represent both sides and everything in between. Just because a paladin is a holy warrior and a champion of their god, doesn't mean they are necessarily anything at all like christian or D&D paladins. They are a "shining example" (your exact words, minus the incorrect spelling) of their god, NOT of truth, justice, and the American way.
Look at it from in IC perspective, and leave your christian/western philosophy behind... it has no place in Elanthia.
First off, you never really read my post, you just saw the main topic and responded. I distinctly mentioned the guild leaders in my post... they represent only certain gods, and therefore have very skewed perspectives. The guild leaders are just people too... they are not gods, their word is not law.
The paladins in DR are based on christian and/or D&D paladins, and don't in any way take into account the religious system of Elanthia. There are 13 core gods that a paladin can follow, and some of those are not opposed (and in fact may even support) things like stealing. Hell, ALL of the 13 have negative aspects that would support murder, theft, you name it. So in essense the paladin guild as it stands now basically says "you can't worship who you choose... you worship who we choose for you."
If you could step outside the christian, montheistic, OOC viewpoint that holy and righteous are the same thing, maybe you could see the logic of my point. In Elanthia good and evil don't exactly apply - it's more like light and dark - and there are gods the represent both sides and everything in between. Just because a paladin is a holy warrior and a champion of their god, doesn't mean they are necessarily anything at all like christian or D&D paladins. They are a "shining example" (your exact words, minus the incorrect spelling) of their god, NOT of truth, justice, and the American way.
Look at it from in IC perspective, and leave your christian/western philosophy behind... it has no place in Elanthia.
<<< Look at it from in IC perspective, and leave your christian/western philosophy behind... it has no place in Elanthia. >>>
Head to the local guild leader and ask them about the guild. Then reconcile those statements to your position.
My opinion has always been one that the negative aspects can noit be worshipped by the Paladin. There is however a way to reconcile it, though I do not like the conceptual framework at all. Essentially, the clerical chaps have really made a mess of this polytheism with their insistance on balance and that all aspects must be appeased by everyone no matter of your moral leaning. And this just irks me to no end. I really despised that Hodierna RP set up that forced a supposedly a light cleric to become a herald for the negative aspect.
Daython
And do me a favor and drop the christian references.
Head to the local guild leader and ask them about the guild. Then reconcile those statements to your position.
My opinion has always been one that the negative aspects can noit be worshipped by the Paladin. There is however a way to reconcile it, though I do not like the conceptual framework at all. Essentially, the clerical chaps have really made a mess of this polytheism with their insistance on balance and that all aspects must be appeased by everyone no matter of your moral leaning. And this just irks me to no end. I really despised that Hodierna RP set up that forced a supposedly a light cleric to become a herald for the negative aspect.
Daython
And do me a favor and drop the christian references.
"And do me a favor and drop the christian references."
Well where else do you think the idea of what a paladin should be came from?
As I said a few times, the guild leaders are not infallible, and are not necessarily correct. From in IC perspective, they are just people like any of the characters. They are just in a position of power. That means that although they may say a paladin should behave a certain way, they may not necessarily be right.
If your character feels that as a follower of Chadatru (or whoever your character worships) would strive for truth and justice, that's great... but in the religion of Elanthia there are alot more gods than that. Even if you don't take into account the negative aspects (which I think is a big mistake... you'd be ignoring and disrespecting part of the pantheon) there are still gods like Damarris that represent different ideals. They way the guild is now, a paladin who was creative enough to choose him as a god and try to really live appropriately for that choice would have to break the rules of the guild.
It seems very closed-minded to not allow people who worship gods other than Chadatru and a few others to behave appropriately. They should be able to be the shining example of what a follower of any god (or gods) should be... as it is, only certain people can.
The standard definition of a paladin just does not jive with the Dragonrealms lore. It's a great and popular idea, and even if it were changed to allow the different gods I think most people would still choose the "truth and honor" role, which is great... but we should at least have the choice.
Well where else do you think the idea of what a paladin should be came from?
As I said a few times, the guild leaders are not infallible, and are not necessarily correct. From in IC perspective, they are just people like any of the characters. They are just in a position of power. That means that although they may say a paladin should behave a certain way, they may not necessarily be right.
If your character feels that as a follower of Chadatru (or whoever your character worships) would strive for truth and justice, that's great... but in the religion of Elanthia there are alot more gods than that. Even if you don't take into account the negative aspects (which I think is a big mistake... you'd be ignoring and disrespecting part of the pantheon) there are still gods like Damarris that represent different ideals. They way the guild is now, a paladin who was creative enough to choose him as a god and try to really live appropriately for that choice would have to break the rules of the guild.
It seems very closed-minded to not allow people who worship gods other than Chadatru and a few others to behave appropriately. They should be able to be the shining example of what a follower of any god (or gods) should be... as it is, only certain people can.
The standard definition of a paladin just does not jive with the Dragonrealms lore. It's a great and popular idea, and even if it were changed to allow the different gods I think most people would still choose the "truth and honor" role, which is great... but we should at least have the choice.
<<< Well where else do you think the idea of what a paladin should be came from? >>>
In the real world, Sparta then Rome, then it is a toss up between Charlemagne and the Byzantines. The point I more do not like is the hand in hand relationship of D&D and christian paladins.
<<< As I said a few times, the guild leaders are not infallible, >>>
Okay then what is the truth? What does the guild stand for? And how do you reach this conclusion?
<<< . but we should at least have the choice >>>
You already do have that choice. There is essentially nothing that stops a person from worshipping a negative aspect. If you define worship as exactly immitating the being you worship, then sure there are restrictions.
The point is, you want things that are achieved only through living an honorable life, to now be applied for living a dishonorable life in the eyes of the society you must interract with. If you steal from someone, why should they trust you? why should they follow you? What is it about you that is worthy of being followed?
Furthermore, I am real curious as to your analysis of a panthiestic religious structure. I suppose you could start some with the writings of Homer.
My opinion on it? I think the pantheism that is in this game is not very well developed at all. That the attitudes are very player driven and often the most closed minded structures rather than open minded. By example I mean this, that those who claim there must be a balance and that each person is at peril for ignoring the negative aspects etc is flat out wrong and narrow. Narrow in that it does not allow anyone to be anything but grey. You may not under this structure have a person try to kill Asketi for being the evil being she is. That person under this structure gains no protection from their deity? I find that approach extremely close minded.
Daython
In the real world, Sparta then Rome, then it is a toss up between Charlemagne and the Byzantines. The point I more do not like is the hand in hand relationship of D&D and christian paladins.
<<< As I said a few times, the guild leaders are not infallible, >>>
Okay then what is the truth? What does the guild stand for? And how do you reach this conclusion?
<<< . but we should at least have the choice >>>
You already do have that choice. There is essentially nothing that stops a person from worshipping a negative aspect. If you define worship as exactly immitating the being you worship, then sure there are restrictions.
The point is, you want things that are achieved only through living an honorable life, to now be applied for living a dishonorable life in the eyes of the society you must interract with. If you steal from someone, why should they trust you? why should they follow you? What is it about you that is worthy of being followed?
Furthermore, I am real curious as to your analysis of a panthiestic religious structure. I suppose you could start some with the writings of Homer.
My opinion on it? I think the pantheism that is in this game is not very well developed at all. That the attitudes are very player driven and often the most closed minded structures rather than open minded. By example I mean this, that those who claim there must be a balance and that each person is at peril for ignoring the negative aspects etc is flat out wrong and narrow. Narrow in that it does not allow anyone to be anything but grey. You may not under this structure have a person try to kill Asketi for being the evil being she is. That person under this structure gains no protection from their deity? I find that approach extremely close minded.
Daython
<Head to the local guild leader and ask them about the guild. Then reconcile
those statements to your position.
My opinion has always been one that the negative aspects can noit be
worshipped by the Paladin. There is however a way to reconcile it, though I do
not like the conceptual framework at all. Essentially, the clerical chaps have
really made a mess of this polytheism with their insistance on balance and
that all aspects must be appeased by everyone no matter of your moral leaning.
And this just irks me to no end. I really despised that Hodierna RP set up
that forced a supposedly a light cleric to become a herald for the negative
aspect.
Daython
And do me a favor and drop the christian references. >
heh finally Daython, we can disagree again.....too bad its about the same ol topic.
Elanthia is a totally different world than Earth is. Concepts and Theology are different, and even evil is different in concept. I dont think this arguement will ever end though, because as players we can only interpret, and with nothing else to base our interpretations on, it kinda all becomes heresay. My belief is that no god is evil, but rather there are gods that relate to the darker shade of life, the brighter side of life, and the general part of life. Alnilam has said that the undead are seen as abominations to the gods and thus they are the enemies of the gods. So the most common example of evil to me, is undead.
PS I personally loved the Hodierna RP
Blasword
those statements to your position.
My opinion has always been one that the negative aspects can noit be
worshipped by the Paladin. There is however a way to reconcile it, though I do
not like the conceptual framework at all. Essentially, the clerical chaps have
really made a mess of this polytheism with their insistance on balance and
that all aspects must be appeased by everyone no matter of your moral leaning.
And this just irks me to no end. I really despised that Hodierna RP set up
that forced a supposedly a light cleric to become a herald for the negative
aspect.
Daython
And do me a favor and drop the christian references. >
heh finally Daython, we can disagree again.....too bad its about the same ol topic.
Elanthia is a totally different world than Earth is. Concepts and Theology are different, and even evil is different in concept. I dont think this arguement will ever end though, because as players we can only interpret, and with nothing else to base our interpretations on, it kinda all becomes heresay. My belief is that no god is evil, but rather there are gods that relate to the darker shade of life, the brighter side of life, and the general part of life. Alnilam has said that the undead are seen as abominations to the gods and thus they are the enemies of the gods. So the most common example of evil to me, is undead.
PS I personally loved the Hodierna RP
Blasword
I am in total agreement that most people are way too closed minded... I'm not say everyone should have a character that strives for neutrality. I'm saying that you as a player should be able to choose if your character will strive for neutrality, order, chaos, etc, based on their religious beliefs, and that the game should be open to these choices.
Playing a paladin who is totally honorable and trustworthy is just great... if you worship Chadatru or another god who preaches living that way. My point is that since a paladin is sort of the half way point between a warrior and a priest, they should try to lead by example. However, depending on what god or gods they worship, that example may be something other than the image of a classic paladin. Why should people trust or follow a paladin who worships a "shady" god and steals and lies? They shouldn't, necessarily... but they should look to him as an example of how to live your life in accordance with a certain god. Clerics preach to the masses, but paladins lead through example: they strive to live the perfect life, according to whatever their religious beliefs are... and in Elanthia, not all religious beliefs say that you should be honest and trustworthy.
As for the theistic side of it... Elanthia has a lot more in common with Hinduism than Christianity. The various aspects of the gods are very similar to the triad of Brahman, Vishnu, and Shiva: creation, preservation, and destruction. Shiva, who respresents destruction, isn't exactly "evil"... the concept doesn't really even apply. The dark aspects in Elanthia are much the same.
( p.s. - Pureblade, I sent you an email a few days ago at your play.net address... is that still a functioning email for you?)
Playing a paladin who is totally honorable and trustworthy is just great... if you worship Chadatru or another god who preaches living that way. My point is that since a paladin is sort of the half way point between a warrior and a priest, they should try to lead by example. However, depending on what god or gods they worship, that example may be something other than the image of a classic paladin. Why should people trust or follow a paladin who worships a "shady" god and steals and lies? They shouldn't, necessarily... but they should look to him as an example of how to live your life in accordance with a certain god. Clerics preach to the masses, but paladins lead through example: they strive to live the perfect life, according to whatever their religious beliefs are... and in Elanthia, not all religious beliefs say that you should be honest and trustworthy.
As for the theistic side of it... Elanthia has a lot more in common with Hinduism than Christianity. The various aspects of the gods are very similar to the triad of Brahman, Vishnu, and Shiva: creation, preservation, and destruction. Shiva, who respresents destruction, isn't exactly "evil"... the concept doesn't really even apply. The dark aspects in Elanthia are much the same.
( p.s. - Pureblade, I sent you an email a few days ago at your play.net address... is that still a functioning email for you?)
>>( p.s. - Pureblade, I sent you an email a few days ago at your play.net address... is that still a functioning email for you?)
Ahhh.. yea I been meaning to reply. I'm lazy so I'll do it here.
I have no definite schedule that I keep, so I'd be bad for the job. You should post in the General Discussion folder here, there are a ton of compotent people who can do just as good of a job :D
Ahhh.. yea I been meaning to reply. I'm lazy so I'll do it here.
I have no definite schedule that I keep, so I'd be bad for the job. You should post in the General Discussion folder here, there are a ton of compotent people who can do just as good of a job :D
Your in game material basis for these positions is?
<<<< chaos, etc, based on their religious beliefs, and that the game should be open to these choices. >>>>
See, chaos was exactly one of the things the guild was established to oppose.
You not only want to rewrite the charter, but you want to rewrite the whole conceptual framework of good and evil. It just isn't possible to get 1000 different players to buy into that. You have to keep some basic standard in place.
Raphael talked a small bit on this in the past. Basically stating a simple position that by attacking the populace wantonly, by stealing, cheating etc etc you lose the trust of those the immortals appointed you to protect. In a way of speaking we are not necessarily the holy warrior of a particular immortal, but the guild to make sure the populace survives.
Daython
<<<< chaos, etc, based on their religious beliefs, and that the game should be open to these choices. >>>>
See, chaos was exactly one of the things the guild was established to oppose.
You not only want to rewrite the charter, but you want to rewrite the whole conceptual framework of good and evil. It just isn't possible to get 1000 different players to buy into that. You have to keep some basic standard in place.
Raphael talked a small bit on this in the past. Basically stating a simple position that by attacking the populace wantonly, by stealing, cheating etc etc you lose the trust of those the immortals appointed you to protect. In a way of speaking we are not necessarily the holy warrior of a particular immortal, but the guild to make sure the populace survives.
Daython
"In a way of speaking we are not necessarily the holy warrior of a particular immortal, but the guild to make sure the populace survives."
That's actually a very valid argument... and I can definately respect anyone with opinions different than mine provided they actually can give logical reasons to back them up, which you've clearly done.
If this is truly the case that the gods banded together and despite their individual leanings decided to charter a group of mortals to act as protectors of their children (and this seems believable, since it is mentioned that they all realized they need Elanthia and it's people after the dragon nearly destroyed it all) then it would change my argument slightly, but not much. For the paladins of certain gods, the trust of the populace would be very important, I agree with you.
However, for those who followed gods such as Damarris it might not be important at all. In fact, they might be universally disliked and not trusted at all... but they could still work somewhat from the shadows to act as the guardians of the people. From their perspective, protecting people from things like theft would be meaningless... on the grand scale theft is no threat to the survival of the people. They would still step forward to fight the undead or any other true threat to Elanthia though. They would be completely selfless in this duty, willing to lay down their lives at a moments notice. However, they might not be concerned with truth or honor, and might leap from the shadows to fight.
That is just one example, and of course different paladins of the same god might behave very differently... since we have so little concrete knowledge of the gods and their desires much of our own judgement is needed in making our path. A paladin of Meraud might fight almost entirely using spells, and might view his protective duties to be in the realm of magic, hunting down dragon priests and necromancers and making sure the magic of the world is in balance. A paladin of Everild might see his duties as training the populace to be prepared for war, and should it arise to lead them in battle. And of course a paladin of Chadatru might be in pursuit of truth and justice, acting as a policeman and judge.
Even if the paths of chaos are against the charter of the guild (and I could concede that it might be that way) there are still plenty of dieties and aspects that aren't necessarily concerned with truth and honor... even though they might still place the protection of Elanthia and its people as their primary duty.
That's actually a very valid argument... and I can definately respect anyone with opinions different than mine provided they actually can give logical reasons to back them up, which you've clearly done.
If this is truly the case that the gods banded together and despite their individual leanings decided to charter a group of mortals to act as protectors of their children (and this seems believable, since it is mentioned that they all realized they need Elanthia and it's people after the dragon nearly destroyed it all) then it would change my argument slightly, but not much. For the paladins of certain gods, the trust of the populace would be very important, I agree with you.
However, for those who followed gods such as Damarris it might not be important at all. In fact, they might be universally disliked and not trusted at all... but they could still work somewhat from the shadows to act as the guardians of the people. From their perspective, protecting people from things like theft would be meaningless... on the grand scale theft is no threat to the survival of the people. They would still step forward to fight the undead or any other true threat to Elanthia though. They would be completely selfless in this duty, willing to lay down their lives at a moments notice. However, they might not be concerned with truth or honor, and might leap from the shadows to fight.
That is just one example, and of course different paladins of the same god might behave very differently... since we have so little concrete knowledge of the gods and their desires much of our own judgement is needed in making our path. A paladin of Meraud might fight almost entirely using spells, and might view his protective duties to be in the realm of magic, hunting down dragon priests and necromancers and making sure the magic of the world is in balance. A paladin of Everild might see his duties as training the populace to be prepared for war, and should it arise to lead them in battle. And of course a paladin of Chadatru might be in pursuit of truth and justice, acting as a policeman and judge.
Even if the paths of chaos are against the charter of the guild (and I could concede that it might be that way) there are still plenty of dieties and aspects that aren't necessarily concerned with truth and honor... even though they might still place the protection of Elanthia and its people as their primary duty.
>The standard definition of a paladin just does not jive with the Dragonrealms lore. It's a great and popular idea, and even if it were changed to allow the different gods I think most people would still choose the "truth and honor" role, which is great... but we should at least have the choice.
ummm no we shouldnt have the choice in my mind, and we dont. Truth and honor define a paladin. you wanna be a bad ass or be evil, go join another guild.
>Even if the paths of chaos are against the charter of the guild (and I could concede that it might be that way) there are still plenty of dieties and aspects that aren't necessarily concerned with truth and honor... even though they might still place the protection of Elanthia and its people as their primary duty.
I agree there are plenty of dieties and aspects that are not concerned with truth and honor, but i can not see how it would be in character for someone who followed them to be a paladin? why would they? there dieties are not concerned with truth and honor why would they join a guild based on Truth and Honor???
Michael.
ummm no we shouldnt have the choice in my mind, and we dont. Truth and honor define a paladin. you wanna be a bad ass or be evil, go join another guild.
>Even if the paths of chaos are against the charter of the guild (and I could concede that it might be that way) there are still plenty of dieties and aspects that aren't necessarily concerned with truth and honor... even though they might still place the protection of Elanthia and its people as their primary duty.
I agree there are plenty of dieties and aspects that are not concerned with truth and honor, but i can not see how it would be in character for someone who followed them to be a paladin? why would they? there dieties are not concerned with truth and honor why would they join a guild based on Truth and Honor???
Michael.
A paladin's connection to the gods is of little consequence, and, thus, so is the choice of god. Paladins existed before they were ever gifted by the gods and, thus, the premise of being a paladin is the same regardless of the god you choose. Many people seem to mix this up with the D&D paladin, who is dedicated to a single god and draws power from him. Paladins in DR recieve support from the gods through their actions, not their devotion. The gods support what paladins do, so they give them abilities, unlike clerics who basically ask the gods for help based on being good friends.
Think of the gods as being a wealthy person. Clerics are the gods' friends, and they get things done as favors to them, just because they are friends. Paladins are more like a patron, like a scientist or an artist that recieves funding because the gods want us to continue our work.
Player of Linras Cauldrath
Think of the gods as being a wealthy person. Clerics are the gods' friends, and they get things done as favors to them, just because they are friends. Paladins are more like a patron, like a scientist or an artist that recieves funding because the gods want us to continue our work.
Player of Linras Cauldrath
<<A paladin's connection to the gods is of little consequence, and, thus, so is the choice of god. Paladins existed before they were ever gifted by the gods and, thus, the premise of being a paladin is the same regardless of the god you choose.>>
Where did you get this from? The speech when you join the guild says otherwise:
"Long ago, when Men of all races strove against Chaos and Darkness, the Gods sent down grace and leadership unto those among us who were pure of heart and purpose. Those so chosen became shining beacons of leadership and courage to all around them. Each Paladin throughout the ages has been a focus for the forces of Light against Darkness."
The were not Paladisn until the gods bestowed their gifts upon them...
<<Many people seem to mix this up with the D&D paladin, who is dedicated to a single god and draws power from him. Paladins in DR recieve support from the gods through their actions, not their devotion. The gods support what paladins do, so they give them abilities, unlike clerics who basically ask the gods for help based on being good friends.>>
How is this different than what has been stated. The point being made is that Paladins don't recieve their gifts from a certain "subset" of gods. A Paladin recieves her/his gifts from the gods, in my mind meaning all the gods (or the all-god) or if you refuse to go that route, whichever god the paladin chooses to worship. Nowhere is it stated that Chadatru or Rutilor bestowed his gift on these people and thus they should worship only them.
<<Think of the gods as being a wealthy person. Clerics are the gods' friends, and they get things done as favors to them, just because they are friends. Paladins are more like a patron, like a scientist or an artist that recieves funding because the gods want us to continue our work.>>
Obviously you know nothing about scientists and funding. Individuals who work on grants and scholarships and the like are much more limited to what they can and cannot do than is a friend. Funding agencies basically own you once you sign on the dotted line, and as such you pretty much have to kiss their arses to keep your "gifts". So if we want to take your analogy, then it means we are more restricted than clerics, and everything we do must be in agreement with the gods. Without their funding we lose our "gifts"
--Just a Squire
Where did you get this from? The speech when you join the guild says otherwise:
"Long ago, when Men of all races strove against Chaos and Darkness, the Gods sent down grace and leadership unto those among us who were pure of heart and purpose. Those so chosen became shining beacons of leadership and courage to all around them. Each Paladin throughout the ages has been a focus for the forces of Light against Darkness."
The were not Paladisn until the gods bestowed their gifts upon them...
<<Many people seem to mix this up with the D&D paladin, who is dedicated to a single god and draws power from him. Paladins in DR recieve support from the gods through their actions, not their devotion. The gods support what paladins do, so they give them abilities, unlike clerics who basically ask the gods for help based on being good friends.>>
How is this different than what has been stated. The point being made is that Paladins don't recieve their gifts from a certain "subset" of gods. A Paladin recieves her/his gifts from the gods, in my mind meaning all the gods (or the all-god) or if you refuse to go that route, whichever god the paladin chooses to worship. Nowhere is it stated that Chadatru or Rutilor bestowed his gift on these people and thus they should worship only them.
<<Think of the gods as being a wealthy person. Clerics are the gods' friends, and they get things done as favors to them, just because they are friends. Paladins are more like a patron, like a scientist or an artist that recieves funding because the gods want us to continue our work.>>
Obviously you know nothing about scientists and funding. Individuals who work on grants and scholarships and the like are much more limited to what they can and cannot do than is a friend. Funding agencies basically own you once you sign on the dotted line, and as such you pretty much have to kiss their arses to keep your "gifts". So if we want to take your analogy, then it means we are more restricted than clerics, and everything we do must be in agreement with the gods. Without their funding we lose our "gifts"
--Just a Squire
>Where did you get this from?
Actually, it was the exact passage you posted. The paladins were "those among us who were pure of heart and purpose" in the first sentance of that passage. The rest describes how the gods gifted them.
The rest of your post seemed more like total agreement with everything I said, along with some clarifications, such as why paladins have more restrictions than clerics and the fact that paladins are gifted by all of the gods. ::shrugs::
Player of Linras Cauldrath - wondering if he missed something in his own post
Actually, it was the exact passage you posted. The paladins were "those among us who were pure of heart and purpose" in the first sentance of that passage. The rest describes how the gods gifted them.
The rest of your post seemed more like total agreement with everything I said, along with some clarifications, such as why paladins have more restrictions than clerics and the fact that paladins are gifted by all of the gods. ::shrugs::
Player of Linras Cauldrath - wondering if he missed something in his own post
<<Actually, it was the exact passage you posted. The paladins were "those among us who were pure of heart and purpose" in the first sentance of that passage. The rest describes how the gods gifted them.>>
Point is you stated Paladins were around before the gods. They were not. Individuals who strove against chaos were (not everyone who strives against chaos is a Paladin). They were not Paladins until the gods bestowed grace and leadership upon them.
--Just a Squire
Point is you stated Paladins were around before the gods. They were not. Individuals who strove against chaos were (not everyone who strives against chaos is a Paladin). They were not Paladins until the gods bestowed grace and leadership upon them.
--Just a Squire
>They were not Paladins until the gods bestowed grace and leadership upon them.
While there is no passage for me to quote to refute this statement, there is none that can prove it either. I interpret it as those chosen already being paladins, and you interpret it as them becoming paladins.
Whatever they were called, however, does not matter. The point still stands that those people were already pure of heart and purpose and striving against chaos and that there is no mention of a request by these people for the power of the gods. The gods granted it in support for their actions and, thus, we get our power from the gods based on their approval of our purpose, rather than our religious beliefs. Otherwise we would get soul from everything that grants devotion.
Player of Linras Cauldrath
While there is no passage for me to quote to refute this statement, there is none that can prove it either. I interpret it as those chosen already being paladins, and you interpret it as them becoming paladins.
Whatever they were called, however, does not matter. The point still stands that those people were already pure of heart and purpose and striving against chaos and that there is no mention of a request by these people for the power of the gods. The gods granted it in support for their actions and, thus, we get our power from the gods based on their approval of our purpose, rather than our religious beliefs. Otherwise we would get soul from everything that grants devotion.
Player of Linras Cauldrath
I'm lost. The arguments have become murky. I'm going to respond as I think proper, but I'm apologizing now if I'm missing the mark.
You cannot define what a paladin is. Each must choose what he wants to be withing that guild. I uphold all the same tenants as a paladin (except for hiding in combat), but I am no paladin. Even if I did not hide in combat, I would still not be a paladin. Now, within the guild, you can't draw out a mold and say all paladins must be that. If you break out the cookie-cutter, you destroy both the guild and the RP. Some want to be roaming guards. Some want to destroy evil where ever it lurks. Some want to protect the weak and innocent. Most have all these goals. Some don't. That's what is great about this game and guild.
As far as dark paladins go, it isn't something that a paladin would choose to be, or call himself. You can have fallen paladins, paladins that worship the dark aspects but don't support their goals, and you can even have paladins that take the law too far. They may be called dark by their detractors, but they certainly do not see themselves that way. (Of course, if the person playing them wants to play a paladin taking the law too far, go for it! We need more RPed evil in this game.) Hitler never thought he was evil. Jack the Ripper didn't think he was evil. So, dark paladins aren't something that can exist, it is more of an opinion.
The traveler.
You cannot define what a paladin is. Each must choose what he wants to be withing that guild. I uphold all the same tenants as a paladin (except for hiding in combat), but I am no paladin. Even if I did not hide in combat, I would still not be a paladin. Now, within the guild, you can't draw out a mold and say all paladins must be that. If you break out the cookie-cutter, you destroy both the guild and the RP. Some want to be roaming guards. Some want to destroy evil where ever it lurks. Some want to protect the weak and innocent. Most have all these goals. Some don't. That's what is great about this game and guild.
As far as dark paladins go, it isn't something that a paladin would choose to be, or call himself. You can have fallen paladins, paladins that worship the dark aspects but don't support their goals, and you can even have paladins that take the law too far. They may be called dark by their detractors, but they certainly do not see themselves that way. (Of course, if the person playing them wants to play a paladin taking the law too far, go for it! We need more RPed evil in this game.) Hitler never thought he was evil. Jack the Ripper didn't think he was evil. So, dark paladins aren't something that can exist, it is more of an opinion.
The traveler.
Hyde96,
>>You cannot define what a paladin is. Each must choose what he wants to be withing that guild.
That's not what we were asking. Look at it from the "Guild Perspective". War Mages are "the premier combat guild" according to a post by a GM. Clerics are "Masters of Harness" according to another GM.
WHAT exactly is the Paladin Guild's "thing". What are we masters or specialists of? Honor? How? Shown in what way? Our soul state? Seems more of a "limitation" rather than a "specialization". Wearing Heavy Plate Armor? Ok, we get the "lowest" hinderance in plate armor and get the lowest hinderance in mixed armor wearing. That's it? That's our "thing"? If so, can I give it back and pick another? Cause right now, it does diddly for us. Sure, I can survive 8 arrows from someone wanting a conflict that would kill someone from another guild.. oh, but wait.. that someone from another guild would just pop into invisibility or hiding or cast a spell and still be alive. We get to be living targets that survive more hits.. but still die with a bit more effort on the attackers part. Except when magic is cast and cuts right thru our armor like it was paper.
We're not asking for a rigid form that creates "cookie cutter" molds all the same. We are asking what the Paladin's Guild "specialization" is. And if it is "armor wearing".. can we make it something else?
Redarch
>>You cannot define what a paladin is. Each must choose what he wants to be withing that guild.
That's not what we were asking. Look at it from the "Guild Perspective". War Mages are "the premier combat guild" according to a post by a GM. Clerics are "Masters of Harness" according to another GM.
WHAT exactly is the Paladin Guild's "thing". What are we masters or specialists of? Honor? How? Shown in what way? Our soul state? Seems more of a "limitation" rather than a "specialization". Wearing Heavy Plate Armor? Ok, we get the "lowest" hinderance in plate armor and get the lowest hinderance in mixed armor wearing. That's it? That's our "thing"? If so, can I give it back and pick another? Cause right now, it does diddly for us. Sure, I can survive 8 arrows from someone wanting a conflict that would kill someone from another guild.. oh, but wait.. that someone from another guild would just pop into invisibility or hiding or cast a spell and still be alive. We get to be living targets that survive more hits.. but still die with a bit more effort on the attackers part. Except when magic is cast and cuts right thru our armor like it was paper.
We're not asking for a rigid form that creates "cookie cutter" molds all the same. We are asking what the Paladin's Guild "specialization" is. And if it is "armor wearing".. can we make it something else?
Redarch
