>Honestly, it should be open to everyone with enough skill, but Barbarians, Paladins, Thieves, War Mages, and Rangers, at least, should get it, in that order.

I understand where your coming from, it being a weapon skill and all. But honestly, it seems to me that it is more of a disciplined warriors manuever. Or militaristcly trained. Paladins.

It is a move that I honestly feel should only be open to paladins. Which probably sounds a little odd since I am for shield bash open for everyone. But shield bash is a lot more basic, to disarm a weapon would take a great deal of discipline, training and skill.

Litharius

Quite note:

Shield bash as well as pommel bash were originally designed (and coded) to take brawlin skill inta account. They were both brawlin moves.

That was... a year ago. They were supposedta be released a LONG time ago.

Mebbe they were redone. It's pretta much all speculation.

>That's a general misconception, but Barbarians tend to be highly disciplined. And I honestly don't know how you can insinuate that Barbarians are not well trained in the arts of combat.
> Skill? Check.
> Discipline? Ayep. Double check.
> Training? Hmm, triple check.

All of what you said is true. But I think there is a difference between military tactics and general skill. While a warrior(uncleverly titled Barbarian in DR) would undoubtedly have more experience(skill) using weapons, I believe that a paladin would have more technique from studying himself, his opponent and melee combat in general.

There is one thing I disagree with you on. Disciplined. I don't believe the barbarian guild is a disciplined guild. Yes, you can train discipline all you want and be twice as disciplined as any paladin. But I am not talking about the attribute, I am talking about the... what's the word? Virtue?

Perhaps it's just my own view fogging my perception, but I see the barbarian guild as boisterous, unorganized and unruly. Don't get me wrong, I'm in now way trying to confuse the Barbarian guild with the traditional idea of a barbarian which I realize many people do. This is just how I see barbarians or warriors if you prefer.

Litharius

Sorta hard to define it one way or another. I mean, yes you have a point, a shield is a armor skill. Then again your ussing your shield as a weapon, offensivly, against what the armor skill set defines.

Then again knowing how to use a shield defensivly would allow you a better understanding of how to apply it offensivly.

But then again the very act of bashing someone with a shield, is very much like brawling.

Hard to gauge but mayhaps an average between the two skills?

-Constatine

> I don't think shield bash should be a brawling move... it would totally ruin the concept of it being useful for paladins.

I agree that it should not be a _brawl only_ move, however I think should be an available move in 3 out of the 5 types of combat. Meaning; regular melee = yes, brawling = yes, mounted = yes, hidden attacks = no, ranged = no.

> Paladins are more likely to use shield bash than any other guild so it should be based on shield ranks

Although you are advocating the use of shield ranks, I think this is a weak argument. It's not about the "masters of blah" -- GM's have time and time again said they wont pidgeon hole guilds, provide bonus's here and there to skills - yes, but "masters" is a flawed player created bbs concept. There are several threads going on about how we dont want to be pidgeon holed, and a "masters" argument tanks that thought. I also would not agree with the inference that Paladins are the majority of shield users, Paladins can learn it quite well, and perhaps have higher ranks in the skill on average, but are not exclusive.

If based on actual skill (read:ranks in shield), it allows a new combat technique to fit with all the combat guilds, and all members of those guilds, working at different levels of effectiveness.

-Slaris

Reason it should be based on shield ranks is that some barb with 2 ranks in shield and 200 ranks in brawling should NOT be better than some paladin with 190 ranks in shield and 180 ranks in brawling. They wouldn't even know which side is up on a shield, much less how to effectively use one offensively..

Shield based. Shield based.

Calemnon the shield user

>Brawling for damage. Shield for everything else.

I agree. But this wouldn't make it a brawling move... it'd make it a shield move.

Brawling move would be if you make it brawling-only. And I don't want it to be brawling-only.

Calemnon

>Don't assume, it makes an ass out of u and me.

I did NOT use that word.

>It's the principal of it

Its "your" principal not mine or most of this guild.

>Did someone just mention evasion? Is it one of your 'top 3 skills?'

These 2 have already been mentioned.

>I am weapon prime, uhh, weapons are for offense. No offensive abilities for you! Sound stupid?

Did not say you could not use shield, use it all you want...just as I will use weapons all I want. Its one move with a shield, not every move with all weapons. and yes it does sound stupid.

>Start a new trend.

I am going with the current trend the GM's have already set down.

Gad

Mounted combat needs a lot of improvement... it should be beneficial to fight mounted on a horse rather than a hinderance... otherwise, no one would have ever used horses in combat.

>>Why can everyone choke, but only 1 guild be able to snap a neck?

Er... everyone can't. Unless by everyone you're just referring to the Barbarian Guild, that is.

-S., et al.

>I don't believe I was talking to you Gad.

9 of the 10 comments you copied and replied to in post #74 were mine from post #68.

Gad

>>9 of the 10 comments you copied and replied to in post #74 were mine from post #68.

My bad, it'd been a while and I didn't remember who posted what. Your post just came off overly hostile. Why the negativity? <g>

>>And while you'd like everyone able to choke (which essentially does nothing deadly to the enemy from what I have seen), the fact CURRENTLY is that Barbs are allowed a "barb ONLY" move such as choke. Given that as it EXISTS, why the fuss about US getting a Paladin ONLY move such as shield bash?

Two wrongs don't make a right. You, as a Paladin, should understand that. ;)

>>My point being, if a "guild ONLY" option is currently available.. why so much fuss and bother about a different guild getting such a thing?

Because regardless of whether Barbarians have one or not, it makes absolutely no sense for some moves to be guild only (i.e. choke and shield bash).

>>This is especially confusing coming from folks playing Barbarians. Maybe other guilds that don't have a guild-only move, coming here asking to participate too might make a bit more sense. But from a guild that already has a "guild only" move to complain about someone else getting a "guild only" move seems..... unfair?

I don't only play Barbarians.

-Stohmp-

I agree, we need shield bash! =)

I wish I'd looked at this when this started, but since I didn't before, but have now, I'll throw in my two coppers. First of all, we are all getting far to emotional. We need to calm down a bit, and cease with the "How things should be", and get back to "How things are". First, facts:

Fact one:

Shield bash: You are using a shield. Naturally, it should use shield skill, and shield skill alone. It is in no way similar to a weapon, and knowing how to swing your fist, kick, elbow, head butt, etc. has absolutly nothing to do with taking a very long, very heavy, and very combersome piece of steel in yer left hand, and whacking somebody upside the head, or bearing them to the ground with reasonable results. Now, it is logical to be able to "fake it" to some pathetic degree, hence why it can be used as a "spur of the moment" weapon with brawling skill, which I think is very sensible. But actually using a shield properly, for blocking or bashing, has nothing to do with brawling. It's called shield use. Your trained in using a shield, for bashing, or blocking. But not all guilds would care about bashing, which leads us to...

Fact two:

Guilds: Guilds in this game represent a charactor's vocation, and their areas of training. If we were to actually live in dragon realms, instead of earth (use your imagination), and you wanted to be a great rock star, naturally, all the best would be in the bard's guild. There's the best trainers for using instruments and singing, hence why they can sing the best, and can do so much that has to do with music, and singing. If you wanted to learn the true arts of using a razor-sharp piece of steel in your hand, then, of course, you would of course join the Barbarian's guild, because all the best weapon masters are in that guild, and they've had plenty of time to perfect the quickest means of killing an opponent. Hence why they know how to (barbarically, if you ask me) break people's necks. If I wanted to serve my gods, king, and country, uphold the good, and learn the absolute best ways of using my shield and armor, I would, of course be a Paladin. Paladin's are the masters of both armor and shield, hence why they have spent so much time in learning the proper use of meneuvering in armor, and protecting with their shield. After so many people using shields so often, they surely perfected it's use to the point of it becoming a way to incapacitate the villain before them. No other guild would ever know or care how to use a shield like a Paladin, though a few from them may be jealous of that perfection. Barbarian's are the masters of killing, both armed and unarmed. Why would they ever waste their time learning something as silly as poking somebody with a shield, when they could simply run them through with their beloved sword? And besides that, many barbarians use two-handed weapons. How often would they use their shield, for protection, or otherwise. The fact is, the guild you are in shows your vocation towards many things, especially combat. A true barbarian is not interested in wasting his time learning to do something like bashing with a shield, when he could use his time to perfect his weapon, or learn how to bring his opponent to a quick demise, with one simple, brutal twist of the neck. Just like a Paladin is completly centered on his armor and shield. He sacrifices his perfection with weapons for the ability to use his shield and armor to the best of anyone's abilty, hence why he would spend the effort learning to bash someone with his shield. A true Paladin would never, ever, care to know how to do something as inglorious, or cowardly, as get behind someone, and incapacitate them while they try to break their neck. Is breaking neck an effective way to kill? Yes. Is it "cool", absolutly! Would an honorable, chivilrous profession like the Paladin ever want to kill an opponent in such a craven, honorless and demeaning way? Never.

Fact Three:

Abilities: I've read of people comparing guild abilties to skills. These are not the same, and not good for comparing, though being skilled in something might help the ability, if they're compatible (brawling for choke, shield use for shield bash). But they aren't the same. Thieves are better at hiding because they have survival as primary, just as Barbarians are better with weapons, because for them, that is primary, just as Paladins are better with shields and armor, becuase for them, that is primary. And certain abilities are, and ought to be, taught only to certain guilds, if for no other reason than that guild's vocation. I don't think choke should belong to anyother guild except Barbarians, because no other guild is capable of the mastery of weapons, armed and unarmed, like a Barbarian. I don't think instrument bonding should belong to any other guild beside Bards, because no other guild is capable of the mastery with music and instruments like a Bard. I don't think Backstab should belong to any other guild beside the Thieves, because no other guild is as trained in the dark arts, like assasination, like a Thief. I don't think Familiars should belong to any other guild except the War Mage. I don't think Tracking or Animal Companions (and myriad of other things Rangers get) should belong to any other guild except the Rangers. I don't think Shield Bash should belong to any other guild except Paladins, because we are the masters of armor and shields.

Nearly every guild has a special ability, almost directly related to their primary skill. Why do so many of you begrude shield bash to Paladins, when none of you have the master with armor and shield as we do? I don't begrude Choke to Barbarians, Familiars to War Mages, Tracking to Rangers, Backstab to Thieves, or anything else to anyone. You all have what you have, because your guild is the only guild that would ever care to know those things. Just like Paladins ought to have Shield Bash, because their guild is the only guild that would ever spend the time, or have the mastery to use Shield Bash. I like guild-only abilities. It makes us each unique, and yet balanced, when we all have one. Yet everyone wishes to deny us this? You only say you'd give choke, because you know the GMs never will. Were the tables turned, you would argue very much differently than you do now. My personal belief is that this ought to be Paladin only, and if it uses any skill, Shield Use, and Shield Use alone. Now, if someone is going to reply to my opinions, make the replys reasonable, because I have no interest in pointless bickering, but reasonable and viable points I would consider, yet so far, all resons for making this not a Paladin-only thing I have deemed silly, illogical, and narrow-focused. I don't think anyone has yet looked at the "big picture". The fact is, you all have what you have. It is very, very, very unlikely it will be taken away, or spread to everybody. Your guilds teach the abilities they teach, becuse no other guild has the same kind of mastery with an ability like that. If you wanted everyone to be completely and entirely equall in all abilites, than why have guilds at all? We join a guild, because that guild has certain vocations. It leans to certain aspects, both martial and mundance. A barbarian is a master of weapons, and by all means their fists can be considered thus. They know how kill so well armed and unarmed they have studied and practiced, and know better than any other could hope to, break someone neck in a cruel and brutal twist. A Paladin is master of armor, and by all means, a shield is considered thus. They know how to use a shield so well that they have studied and practiced, and know better then any other could hope to, how to use their shield in a brutal swip, or uppercut, or how to bear them to the ground. I don't see why no one else has yet seen this logic.
I rest my case.

-Marsullus Mithridus, Paladin, and proud to be of the proudest, most noble tradition, but as of yet, one of the least defined, ability-wise.