So now that my ranger is branching out into the world more and leaving home, I'm noticing more and more how unfriendly the world as a whole is to ranger folk. It's becoming more and more difficult to keep my ranger bonus up in the course of day to day life, just because there are pretty much no ranger-friendly gathering spots anywhere remotely close to ranger-friendly hunting spots for his abilities. It's rather frustrating and making me regret investing so much time into playing a ranger, and I feel he's too far advanced for me to simply pick up another class instead.

Coupled with this is my frustration at how few options I have while in urban areas as far as spells go, and how gimped I am by that, considering all of the PVP I partake in is city-centric, to the point where the people I'm against flat-out refuse to leave urban areas to hamstring me completely. On top of this, I feel like ranger magic as a whole has a few major glaring weak spots, mostly our direct disablers such as HB and BB. I have simply not come into any situation post-3.0 where I've found these spells to be of any use at all, but that very well may be my own shortcomings as far as stats and ranks go.

What this brings me to is a suggestion for the MON spell. I feel like it's very underwhelming in its current form compared to how difficult the spell is to cast. I don't see the benefit as being equal to the amount of skill or mana used to cast it. I would like to suggest a change to it to address my previously mentioned complaints; I think it would be a great idea and provide a lot more utility to the skill if it were to 'lock in' a bonus from the area it was casted in, and allow nature-oriented spells to be cast anywhere for as long as the spell was active, as well combat the effects of bonus drain, though for balance sake probably not entirely as to not negate the purpose of the system.

I really hope this is taken into consideration, because at the moment I feel like being a ranger is really only playing half the game with how restrictive the system is.

You have limited options as far as those spells go with casting in a city element- You can pretty much swarm/HB/tm spells

Griz claw is pretty awesome but can't be cast in town/urban areas. Branch break is another spell limited to wilderness. Curse of the wilds, etc.

I was disappointed to find out that Memory of nature didn't have any use other than slight bonus perks. It'd be pretty nifty to allow more of these spells in town.

One cool thing is you can cast Bear's Strength in town in 3.0


~Nefidyne

>
Kssarh gestures at you.
Two Ranger journeymen materialize out of the surrounding trees and begin to whisper to Kssarh as they escort him out of the area.

I really like how CS and BES work now, and I find myself switching between the two situationally depending on what I'm up against. I don't feel like my contest spells stats are especially bad(they're not especially good, either), but COTW is my go-to debuff simply because I can't make any of the other ones work. If I have access to griz claw, I find it works absolute wonders, but again, the drawback being that you can never really use it when you need it.

But on the point of MON, it's our most difficult spell to cast, isn't it? It's severely underwhelming in its performance considering that.

As far as ranger friendly hangouts go, there are several scattered around the mainland.
By ranger friendly, I am including areas with this pace message "You pace back and forth, smiling slightly to yourself at the refreshing familiarity of the area."
I consider that level of nature to be acceptable and allow my bonus to drop to that level.. if you are wanting a perfect bonus at all times you are going to have a tough time. We aren't meant to.

The bin at Lang, outside the Theren gate, and Haven Ranger guild are a short distance from almost anywhere you might hunt in Therengia.. Crossing Ranger guild or outside the NE gate covers Zoluren.
Ilithi...yeah, you are kind of out of luck. The few hangouts aren't ranger friendly.
Forfedhdar...often not enough people to hangout, although sometimes groups will form right outside the BC gate or right outside stompers or head-splitters.

As for spars, there are many to choose from and the majority I know of are in ranger friendly areas.. I know I've been to a few that weren't, but they aren't the frequently recurring ones...or if they are recurring, I stopped going to them for that very reason and have forgotten about them..
Try these:
Tuesdays at 9pm: Ilithi Spars at Sunbeam Circle just east of Shard. (very ranger friendly, pace like a mountain lion)
Thursdays at 11pm: Northern Watch combat training at the Gorbesh fortress just north of Lang. (pretty ranger friendly, smiling slightly to yourself as you pace)
Sometimes they have spars at the Crossing cemetery which I am fairly sure is ranger friendly.
Spars in Therenborough or at the Crossing Stables aren't good for us.. those are the only bad places I recall having them.

I kind of agree about the effectiveness of HB and BB in 3.0.. but more of their power in general, not an issue with urban environments.
I have forgotten which of those spells worked in urban areas in 2.0. I know some of them did, because I used them in invasions. That is about the only place I miss them now, for urban casting.

I agree it would be nice if MON could bump up "nature" level as far as spell casting goes. Maybe it does, but it is such a hard spell to cast that you have to cap it in order to cast certain spells in full urban environments. I know I can't get anywhere close to casting it at maximum mana yet.


Being a Ranger and wanting to RP does bring about some restrictions and disadvantages, I agree. Many events are in town so you have to plan your bonus recovery time/activities around what events you want to go to. MON does help a lot there, reducing the damage to your bonus while it is in effect. Some people have complained about the duration, although it is on par with our other spells I think.
There have been plenty of events where I snuck out long enough to recast it and go back in.

I guess that hurts some people more than others. There are a lot of events I could care less about, and many I do go to. I just have to plan some wilderness time around them.

The part that hurts me the worst is invasions. I love invasions, but since they are typically in town they don't like me..and I don't know when they'll be so I can't plan around them.
I'm not sure how many times I was in an event letting my bonus decay, planning to spend some downtime outdoors when an invasion starts.
Once the invasion ends my bonus is completely gone and it is late and I log off... the next day I have the fun task of dealing with it. Beseech Elanthia to Transfer does help a lot in this scenario, when you gain it.

You'll need to cast a second BB when the monster/person in question is stunned. Casting BB on a stunned opponent is what causes the KO effect. If you're casting it for the second time and they aren't getting Knocked Out you're just barely succeeding and getting minimal stun duration on the first stun and they're coming out before the second BB hits. You'll either need to stance for potency, increase your stats, or cast a quicker second BB.

>>Not sure when they plan on addressing it, but it needs it.

There already is a new version, and when everything hits Test, it'll be part of that push.

FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate

I have often wondered when the items we were promised were going to show up? Maybe pay some programmers to do the job would help.

Arct

Break Branch and Mental Blast both need a minor redesign in the fact of Diminishing Returns.

-Raesh

"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose

Trust me, on some individuals, it's really not as trivial as you make it sound. You are not going to snap off an effective 2nd shot when it takes over 60 mana to even stun them minorly, penalties included. And if some can, it's very few at best. I agree that it comes down to the duration of the first cast. But if you can stun something that long off a first cast....you had a ton of prep time, and/or your target is slightly above even'ish to outclassed would be my guess.

And if this is the scenario we're basing on, then it sounds like BB is about to go join HB(which also got a lot of love) in the nearly-useless heap of rarely casted spells.


~Van

>Trust me, on some individuals, it's really not as trivial as you make it sound. You are not going to snap off an effective 2nd shot when it takes over 60 mana to even stun them minorly, penalties included. And if some can, it's very few at best. I agree that it comes down to the duration of the first cast. But if you can stun something that long off a first cast....you had a ton of prep time, and/or your target is slightly above even'ish to outclassed would be my guess.

Trust me, it really is that trivial, it's not very difficult at all to get a 5+ second stun from the first BB. You don't have to cast the second BB at full mana/prep to be able to land the KO. A quick follow up 3 second prep;harness;cast will knock them out. You also don't need massively high magic ranks to pull it off. If you're casting at your personal cap (FOR THE FIRST BB), stanced 130% potency, and only get a couple of seconds your opponent WAY outclasses you, in which case you shouldn't be able to land the KO. However; with the way potency works, you can have less offensive stats matched up against your opponents defensive stats and still be able to land a good stun which will give you the opportunity needed to KO them. Plenty of testing has gone into this.

>Not sure there is a state of being that is more defenseless than unconscious - maybe its just me.

There's not, there was also a time when immobilization took your effectiveness to zero. Conceptually this makes sense, because if you're immobilized, you can't dodge. Guess what happened, it was changed because being able to drop someone's effective defense to 0 is very much imbalanced.

>Taking the time to cast two spells, and successfully hitting both within a specific time frame, is worthy of a hefty result - IMO. Don't forget that as of 3.0 it is theoretically possible for someone with 1 rank of bows to hit someone with 1200 ranks of evasion, according to the premise that combat 3.0 was designed under. I don't know who you are attacking or what their current vitality levels are, but I have seen some of the biggest barbarians in the game take more than 5 & 6 hits to kill under 30 circle nubs.

Much like the old immobilization status effect, landing two Branch Breaks or knocking someone out with Mental Blast isn't some huge feat that should illicit the massive penalty that exists today. There was a reason an effort has been made to bring those in line, and why we've seen spells like Shatter and Halt's status effects become reduced. While I appreciate your diligence in pointing out that there's random critical success/failure chances, this was taken into consideration when it was tested months ago. This was easily repeated and reproduced multiple times through hours of testing and even shown to staff. Health levels were checked during each attack, armor was completely repaired, victims were woundless, stances were set properly. The conclusion? After achieving the KO effect from branch break against an opponent who's defending stats outweighed the attackers stats, the attacker was able to do significant damage against an opponent with 1200 evasion with their effective attack stance set so they were utilizing 500 ranks with their weapon. Guess what happened when the attacker was using 100% of their attack?

>>You people are going to balance this game right down the toilet.

I'm not sure you have any idea what has been done to address current concerns with that spell, but when Test opens up, I'll gladly listen to your input about it.

FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate

>>I'm not sure you have any idea what has been done to address current concerns with that spell, but when Test opens up, I'll gladly listen to your input about it.

No offense here GM Rinicus but I disagree with the way magic has been 'balanced' for Rangers, and moreover the way the 'balancing' philosophy has been applied generally throughout the game. After playing for 15+ years and watching nerf after nerf after nerf in the name of 'balance', and the coinciding consistent decline in active player subscriptions, I have to say that it seems like dev may be missing the forest through the trees.

That is of course just my opinion - take it or leave it. We all know you guys work hard; I have a tendency to get mouthy when I don't like something.

- Kart / Rhoat

>>> No offense here GM Rinicus but I disagree with the way magic has been 'balanced' for Rangers, and moreover the way the 'balancing' philosophy has been applied generally throughout the game.

Do you think your perception might have something to do with the fact that Ranger (and Barbarian, Paladin and Thief) spells used to compensate for the fact that Rangers are a magic tertiary guild and no longer do so under 3.0?

>>Do you think your perception might have something to do with the fact that Ranger (and Barbarian, Paladin and Thief) spells used to compensate for the fact that Rangers are a magic tertiary guild and no longer do so under 3.0?

I think its more like having seen a goal at a certain level of achievement and working hard to get to that goal, only to have the reward yanked out from beneath you time after time just as you achieve it because somebody decided it was unfair to clerics or warmages and rangers are too effective during PVP scenarios.

EXAMPLES:

Branch Break used to deal damage.
Swarm used to aoe poison.
HB used to target poison.
Invisibility used to be invisible.
Hobble used to instantly immobilize.
Arrows used to kill people.
TM was not trainable or foreseeably requisite.
Shied was not required.
etc. so forth. ad nauseam.

- Kart / Rhoat

The biggest problem with DR balance is that the NERF BAT is sometimes not coupled with creativity. Inevitably it goes something like, "SpelloDewm does X, remove X.", It rarely goes goes "SpelloDewm does X, maybe we should have it do Y, Z or Q that would be more balanced. What do you guys think?".

BB, Swarm, HB, Plague, Etc... I think they have all suffered from this at least once.

But, Gort and Nef are right - Dual Load --> Poach Neck(STUN) --> BB (K.O!) --> Dual Load --> Poach Neck (Kill!) --> Dance Happy

The only argument against BB NERF is that the second cast of BB can be tough for magic terts that don't train for PvP and keep their magics on part with their weapon; but, who's fault is that?

I personally think MON should take the nature settings of the room in which you cast it and apply it to Ranger for the duration of the spell, with a max duration based on of skill, and the level of room that you are trying to maintain.

This would allow small rangers to maintain a basic nature room for 15 rois, but maybe a moderate nature room for only 5 rois, super nature room for 1 rois. Max cast might be a max nature room for something like 30 minutes?

That would be my idea for MON, and my limited take on balancing Ranger skills.

---

Player of Diggan, Ranger & Halfing of Aesry

>relative to your Debil skill(advanced being ~400-500 ranks) determines how effective it is. A Ranger with 100 Int/Wis/Disc and 600 Bow could potentially murder anyone in the game.

And how many rangers can you name built like this? Less than a handful, if any. What we are playing with here are exceptions. There will always be exceptions, no matter how you want to nerd things. Someone will put all their eggs into one basket, or was clever enough to figure out how to exploit your weakness. You nerf this and something else will take its place over time. BB is just peoples current big rage, even though what it does is not new.

And you know, if you're starting off by stunning someone because you aimed and shot them in the neck, then I'm going to say your pretty close to outclassing your target. It doesn't sound like it matters if your can KO them or not. Which is probably why you can cast it high or fast enough to begin with.

I still think the practical use of knocking targets out is very small compared to how easy its opposers try to present it. On hard targets it can take well up to 65(I've even needed 90 once) mana to stun. The cast alone requires 2 seconds of roundtime. This doesn't leave much time to prep and cast another unless they were significantly affected. If it took that much mana to get a stun, the chances to snap another is very low. Even in their hindered state I would guess it takes 50% on the next cast. This is a guess of course, unless mechanically it just requires A cast, and not an effective cast. I've haven't tested that part. But I assume it still has to be effective enough to hit.

To me it seems little to do with the spell, and more to the fact that 3.0 added the ability to boost the offensive nature of a caster, and little is done for the defensive with the exception of warding spells which I have yet to see people effectively keep up. So basically most everyone became inherently more offensive by a good 30%. Because before recently, I don't recall quite as much complaining about it.

The KO feature was added to compensate its old damage dealing, when that got removed. If people hate the KO then fine. I'd be willing to part with it for say, a knockdown effect along with the stun on the normal cast. Essentially combing in the old Hobble effect.


~Van

>The KO feature was added to compensate its old damage dealing, when that got removed. If people hate the KO then fine. I'd be willing to part with it for say, a knockdown effect along with the stun on the normal cast. Essentially combing in the old Hobble effect.

Well, there's your disconnect, it doesn't seem like you're fully reading the posts in the thread. We've been talking about the KO effect and how it creates a massive defensive penalty the entire time. Nobody is asking for for the removal of the KO effect from BB, we're questioning the amount that's penalized while under the effect from a second KO BB. I could care less if BB retains it's KO effect or if it's changed to something else. The bottom line is, the penalty for being unconscious is completely out of line. Maybe it has to do with just the unconscious status, maybe it's a combination of being prone, stunned and unconscious and those effects being additive.

I feel like the power that BB has is somewhat warranted. It's not exactly easy to pull off the KO and it only works in wilderness areas. I'd hate to see us further hamstrung under the current system without any way to compensate for it.

>>I'm just going to reference the original post on BB that Halzo put up 5 months ago and save the trouble of going over the same thing twice.

After 5 months has anyone tested this with Mental Blast?

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Player of Diggan, Ranger & Halfing of Aesry

I hate to be the one to point it out, but I feel like you're ignoring the best defense against this spell. No skill check, no stat contests, no RT.

>go gate