<<...you're basing your argument on an incorrect premise...

I have defended the premise, you are asserting it's falsity by mere fiat. Show how the premise is incorrect.

<<The conclusion was that you were wrong. I'm not sure how you missed that.

I noticed that you stated I was wrong, but I have "missed" where you showed it to be so.

<<I assumed you cared about this issue and wanted to see change, given that you said so. I apologize if I'm being presumptuous in this respect. It felt reasonable.

Don't be snooty, of course I care, I wouldn't still be here if I didn't. That comment was referring to your claim of people being "tired" of this thread, not the response by the GM.

<<You believe that being set PvP Open is a punishment.

I am not alone in this regard. It is punitive based upon a choice, because the assumption is that someone, somewhere, will take advantage of my being open. To ignore that likely outcome is to ignore the testimony of anyone who spends more than a day, sometimes an hour, in crossing with an open pvp stance. Why set someone to open if there is no expected result? You don't honestly think they changed the stance without being fully aware of the arena that has been fostered in the open stance community...

I have repeated this ad nauseum throughout my posts here: I have no problem with punishment for being caught, directly or indirectly through the medium of my intended target. I am simply asking that success not be punished the same way failure is.

Please explain how it is not a punishment.

>>BOBTHESNOB5515

FYI, based on your posts so far, you accusing others of "willful denial of reality" is rather ironic. That can basically sum up your continuing contribution to this thread.

---

TG, TG, GL, et al.

Hey guys, I appreciate you're having a discussion but please tone down the insults, personal attack and general snark.

Thank you so much!
Svafa


___
If you have questions or comments, please email me at DR-SVAFA@PLAY.NET or Senior Board Monitor Sidatura at
DR-SIDATURA@PLAY.NET or Message Board Supervisor Annwyl at DR-ANNWYL@PLAY.NET.

Nice post, PB. I agree 100% with it.

Not only does there remain a harassment policy regardless of profile stance, you get a warning about being set to Open before stealing, right? Guess I just don't get how this is soooo terrible.

---

Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.

-GM Abasha

>Do you even play a thief?

Interesting. I just watched a buch of fat old men who have never played a game of football in their lives win a bunch of money betting on... wait for it... football. They seemed to know what they were talking about, but I'm glad I know they couldn't have since they never played.

-Reverend Gidien

---

"Under the sword lifted high, there is hell making you tremble. But go ahead, and you have the land of bliss."

~Miyamoto Musashi

<<I hate this mind set SO much.

Yaddah yaddah yaddah, you don't get killed so why should anyone else care, right? Glad you're having such an easy time of it, maybe you're just big enough that most people leave you alone. Why do you keep assuming I'm a complete ignoramus or that I can't figure out which way is up? Better yet, why don't you ask a few random people why they're not pvp open, then come back and tell me how paranoid I am.

<<If that's how you want to play, I suggest you use MARK more often.

Does mark keep you from getting stanced over to pvp open when you steal? No? Why bring it up? It doesn't matter whether you get caught or not, the result is the same, so why bother marking?

<<Not at all. I steal from PC's all the time and have never been killed for it.

There you have it, ladies and gentlemen, might makes right. If you can't stand up to the bullies, don't bother stealing, yes?

These are not arguments against my fundamental complaint. They are, at best, simply irrelevant side-discussions, and at worst, insults intended to degrade my position by pretending theres no problem and calling me paranoid.

<<Being open for 2 hours should not affect your game play in any way unless you are playing in a manner that warrants action.

Utter nonsense. Being open IS action enough. THAT is why it is punishment. I insist that you ask a few of your fellow players why they're not pvp open, and let me know what you get back.

<<What about the 5th circle noobs you steal from? Aren't you forcing them into a 'battleground' that they can't compete in?

Why would I steal from a 5th circle player? CAN you even steal from a 5th circle player?

<<Not just you, what about the 100th Thief that steals from the 20th circler?

Yes, what about that individual. I wonder if he gets mowed down for his crimes...I'm guessing no.

<<No, I don't get stolen from by Thieves anymore. Maybe they're scared? Anyhow, I'd love to smash 150th circle thieves, it wouldn't be difficult at all against most.

Then why on earth do you care? What are you doing here? Do you play a thief?

<<No, it sounds like you. can't. RP. the. consequences. as. a. result. of you stealing from other players.

I'm sick of this objection, I have addressed it over and over and over again. I'm done responding to this pointless insult.

<<Well the policy change certainly weeded out those who wanted their way all the time, everytime. Excellent stuff.

All the time, everytime? Is that even remotely representative of my position? Can you please point out where I argued for this?

>>Yes, what about that individual. I wonder if he gets mowed down for his crimes...I'm guessing no.

If he isn't incredibly reckless with his behavior, then no. If he's getting mowed down within a 2 hour time period then obviously he either stole from the wrong person, or did something incredibly stupid. Does this sound a bit familiar?

>>Then why on earth do you care? What are you doing here? Do you play a thief?

Because the policy change to stealing was a fundamental change that forced stubborn i-play-my-way-and-won't-deal-with-the-consequences people to abide by and deal with their actions. I am here to defend my view on it. Do I have to play a Thief to care about policy?

>>All the time, everytime? Is that even remotely representative of my position? Can you please point out where I argued for this?

You argued for this by responding 2908523489 times in defense of a position that is clearly defined by not wanting to abide by your own play style.

---

Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.

-GM Abasha

>>Please explain how it is not a punishment.

Hey, we're getting somewhere.

A punishment is a reaction to a crime. Being set to PvP Open, in this case, is like being looked at differently because you're wearing a wedding ring. This isn't a punishment: it's recognizing that you play by a certain set of rules and you should be categorized by that set of rules.

The fact that wearing a wedding ring means that people are less inclined to try to get into your pants doesn't mean that you're being punished for agreeing to a marriage. It just means they consider you off-limits. Neither is the fact that jerks are more inclined to try to seduce you a punishment. It just means they consider you a challenge.

Notice here that there still is no direct analogy to the fact that you intend to steal from people. Shocking! It's as if that's irrelevant. This is because it's irrelevant.

Some people believe that getting married is a punishment. Some people believe this and get married anyways. This is called sadomasochism, but beside the point. The point is that society does not consider it a punishment. It is not something they have the right to inflict on you (these days).

Some people really like being married. They have great experiences and know lots of other people with great experiences. But this is not the category you belong to.

Marriage is not a punishment, except metaphorically and hyperbolically. Same with PvP Open. It is not imposed on you as a consequence. If you live with someone for seven years, and meet certain other criteria, you are married under common law. If you steal from other players, you are operating under PvP Open policy.

It's not "Hah! And for that, you are now married!" It's "Oh. That's a long time. That's the kind of behavior we associate with married people. We're just going to call that married."

>>To ignore that likely outcome is to ignore the testimony of anyone who spends more than a day, sometimes an hour, in crossing with an open pvp stance.

I'm at 117 minutes and no one seems interested in killing me randomly. Did get a gold snatched, though. Though now that I'm posting this, I should scamper off.

And by the way, if your RP can't survive the world into which it is thrust, it's not RP. It's a narcissistic fantasy.

<<If he's getting mowed down within a 2 hour time period then obviously he either stole from the wrong person, or did something incredibly stupid. Does this sound a bit familiar?

No, for the umpteenth time, I didn't get caught, and I didn't piss anyone off. It was admittedly random, by the actual perpetrator. You, an uninvolved spectator, have chosen to weigh in on my character and decide that I'm simply socially irresponsible. Do you know me?

<<Do I have to play a Thief to care about policy?

No, but you should play a thief before weighing in on gameplay policies that directly affect thieves. I don't mean this as a personal insult, but your view on this topic is uneducated and irrelevant; you don't play a thief, you don't get stolen from, you don't steal, and you don't have cause for concern in any conflict situation. You wouldn't go to a teacher's union meeting if you weren't a teacher, would you?

<<You argued for this...<insert gratuitous character slander>

Read my original post, read every post since then, go roll a thief, come back and join the conversation. I'm certain you'll have something to contribute, but this isn't it.

I didnt like the change when it first came out, but it has been said that it isnt going to change. I accepted that and have learned to deal with it. I see it as a general attitude change for my character, not me. He chose to steal from some people, so he excepts that he might get killed even if its not by his targets for a while. For all he knows, someone might have seen him stealing, even if he didnt notice them. He brought the heat on himself. When he is done making his rounds he goes to his various "hideouts," and waits it out til he is certain he wasnt seen.

>>No, for the umpteenth time, I didn't get caught, and I didn't piss anyone off.

How do you know you didn't get caught? Please don't say because you didn't notice him catch you.

>>You, an uninvolved spectator, have chosen to weigh in on my character and decide that I'm simply socially irresponsible. Do you know me?

You give me information by the content of your posts. Don't get uptight with me because your entire argument was not only fundamentally flawed, but you've had a hard time dealing with people being upfront and providing reasonable explanations.

>>No, but you should play a thief before weighing in on gameplay policies that directly affect thieves.

Says who? You? I don't care if someone has played a Thief for 20 years, back before the game was even thought of. Common sense and logic prevails.

>>I don't mean this as a personal insult, but your view on this topic is uneducated and irrelevant; you don't play a thief, you don't get stolen from, you don't steal, and you don't have cause for concern in any conflict situation.

Wait wait... I don't get stolen from? Does that mean I've never been stolen from? How do you know I don't steal? I've had cause for concern in any conflict situation when I started my character at 0 circle, just like many other high-level characters. You are making wild assumptions here.

>>You wouldn't go to a teacher's union meeting if you weren't a teacher, would you?

Extremely poor analogy since the stealing policy applies to every character, not just Thieves. Try again.

---

Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.

-GM Abasha

I feel obligated to add that my Thief is 45th circle and was variously and briefly involved in the Crossing Purge events. He also enjoys stealing from players quite a bit and had the pathetic experience of being finally caught by a hunter only to have the Dragon's Breath splash uselessly against his shield. It has made me dubious about any RP potential in PvP thievery beyond strutting my own invincibility.

Stealing from someone is most certainly causing a conflict, even if the target isnt aware of it..

<<To paraphrase Devan, what narcissistic fairy-tale land do you live in that being stolen from isn't conflict?

Its only a conflict if you get caught.. :-)

OK, I'm done, I can't argue with 6 people at a time. You're saying its not a punishment, therefore my argument is valid. You then say it is a punishment, and I just need to suck it up. You say it's not going to change, so shut up. You then say theres nothing wrong, so why are you complaining. It is a conflict, then it isn't as soon as I agree.

It's like herding cats arguing with you guys. I was enjoying the discussion, but I simply can't keep up. I have no right to ask this of any of you, but I beg you go read my first post, and think about it from my point of view. Feel free to flame me if you still disagree this vehemently, but recognize that THIS thief no longer steals from players due to the number of deaths per theft being HIGHER than 1:1.

I have spoken with other thieves in game, and have received unanimous agreement on this point. Call it nostalgia, call it paranoia, whatever. I've said my piece, and I stand by it. I sincerely hope none of you receive the same treatment by the gods for your core abilities, but you can bank on the fact that if you did, I won't be standing in the way of reform for your cause.

I know I am not alone, and if you're reading this as a fellow thief, you now know you aren't either. I've done my best to voice my concerns, and of yours, my brethren, that I have spoken with.

Ciao

>>I simply can't keep up.

See. I told you so.

>>Why?

Z.

"Glad you're having such an easy time of it, maybe you're just big enough that most people leave you alone. Why do you keep assuming I'm a complete ignoramus or that I can't figure out which way is up?"

Because your experiences seem to indicate that is the case.

"Do you even play a thief?"

My primary character is a moonmage who is a bandit raider. So..sort of. Also, I've had a couple thief characters none of which have made it over 30th circle all of whom have been open since stepping out of the character manager. None of them have experienced even one random kill.

"This is a willful denial of reality. I can dash off 5 names in as many seconds of people I have personally witnessed killing random pvp open individuals,"

Giving actual, factual accounts of experience is a willful denial of reality? How? My experience with the open PvP setting and the experience of those who I know well enough to speak confidently about their time PvP open is nothing but valid.

"There you have it, ladies and gentlemen, might makes right. If you can't stand up to the bullies, don't bother stealing, yes?"

This keeps popping up with you. Being "big" dose not protect you. There is always, and I mean always, someone bigger than you just around the corner. It actually melds more into most everyone at the top can kill most everyone else at the top.


"You like it this way because it cuts down significantly on theft, not because it makes sense in any conflict resolution sort of way."

You clearly don't know me or of my primary character if you are directing this at me. I don't expect you to know me, but such wildly inaccurate assertions don't help your credibility.



-Serc

""It's a hell of a thing, killing some text. Take away all the numbers and letters and punctuation it's got, and all the numbers and letters and punctuation it's ever gonna have." -- Clint Eastwood, Unforgiven."-- Bahb.

Hi there,

I'm fairly certain this discussion is fodder for the Equine Cemetery.



Annwyl
Message Board Supervisor

If you've questions or comments, take it to e-mail by writing me at DR-Annwyl@play.net.