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Ever since the bow and evasion modifiers were brought down, I really don't see how agility is more valuable than any other physical.
>>But Ranged is king in PvP. You use that 2HE with 99 strength while someone has a capped bow and arrows with 99 agility at equal ranks.
Well yes, but that's my point.
A capped longbow is w/w, drawing almost equal attack from strength and agility.
The bows USED to have that ridiculous 3x agility modifier so I definitely agree agility used to trump everything.
But that was hardcore nerfed, and so was the performance of evasion.
So as it is, I don't see how agility > strength is if you have a weapon with similar stats. The only case where I see agility being greater is backstab.
Well yes, but that's my point.
A capped longbow is w/w, drawing almost equal attack from strength and agility.
The bows USED to have that ridiculous 3x agility modifier so I definitely agree agility used to trump everything.
But that was hardcore nerfed, and so was the performance of evasion.
So as it is, I don't see how agility > strength is if you have a weapon with similar stats. The only case where I see agility being greater is backstab.
In theory, your statements sound correct. But from my experience this hasn't been the case.
It all boils down to the functions of agility and strength.
Strength lets you hit harder. Agility enables you to hit much more easily.
At higher ranks, to-hit becomes more important simply because of how damage is already currently dealt. With a capped longbow and arrows at upper ranks, being able to land even barely land a hit can often result in a huge amount of damage. Most people would take that over strength, since strength doesn't increase your chances of being able to hit something.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
It all boils down to the functions of agility and strength.
Strength lets you hit harder. Agility enables you to hit much more easily.
At higher ranks, to-hit becomes more important simply because of how damage is already currently dealt. With a capped longbow and arrows at upper ranks, being able to land even barely land a hit can often result in a huge amount of damage. Most people would take that over strength, since strength doesn't increase your chances of being able to hit something.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
>>At higher ranks, to-hit becomes more important simply because of how damage is already currently dealt. With a capped longbow and arrows at upper ranks, being able to land even barely land a hit can often result in a huge amount of damage. Most people would take that over strength, since strength doesn't increase your chances of being able to hit something.
Eh?
To-hit and damage are actually calculated in the same formula. There is no distinction between the two currently as I recall.
Though I am forgetting one huge thing, and that's target magic, so for most guilds I actually would say agility is more important anyways.
Eh?
To-hit and damage are actually calculated in the same formula. There is no distinction between the two currently as I recall.
Though I am forgetting one huge thing, and that's target magic, so for most guilds I actually would say agility is more important anyways.
>>To-hit and damage are actually calculated in the same formula. There is no distinction between the two currently as I recall.
Hmm... so what you're saying is:
Two people have 200 ranks in longbow.
Character A has 20 agility and 99 strength.
Character B has 99 agility and 20 strength.
They both stand the same chance of hitting someone with 350 evasion?
I always thought that the one with strength would be more likely to miss, but do more damage if they do hit. Whereas the one with agility would be more likely to hit, but do less damage if they do hit.
If what I thought was true, then character B with the most agility would be more suited to PvP, because at upper ranks (400, 500, 600), the damage would be more, and capped bows + arrows would simply make up for the lack of strength. With full aim, 130% at 800 ranks is a lot more than 130% at 100 ranks.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
Hmm... so what you're saying is:
Two people have 200 ranks in longbow.
Character A has 20 agility and 99 strength.
Character B has 99 agility and 20 strength.
They both stand the same chance of hitting someone with 350 evasion?
I always thought that the one with strength would be more likely to miss, but do more damage if they do hit. Whereas the one with agility would be more likely to hit, but do less damage if they do hit.
If what I thought was true, then character B with the most agility would be more suited to PvP, because at upper ranks (400, 500, 600), the damage would be more, and capped bows + arrows would simply make up for the lack of strength. With full aim, 130% at 800 ranks is a lot more than 130% at 100 ranks.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
Well, I could be completely off-base on this one, but allow me to give you my understanding of the formula and cite my sources.
Loosely it would work something like this...
Magic is funkier so I'll just use a weapon as an example.
Ranks + Strength bonus (modified by weapon's suitedness) + Agility bonus (modified by balance) = Offensive Force
Offensive Force - Defensive Force = actual damage you do.
A) I recall a discussion thread some time ago. People were whining about bows before they nerfed the agility reflex and Dartenian said something (I forget what) that inferred to me that this was how damage was handled.
B) One of the player polls (what do you want to do? hit harder, less often, hit more often but lighter, etc.) indicated to me that they eventually PLAN to separate to-hit and damage formulas, which would of course mean that they are currently the same.
Now reflex > stamina because evasion directly lowers your OF before you get hit. Stamina only lowers it after you get hit (among doing other things) so reflex is more valuable. However, to my knowledge there's nothing like evasion as far as offense is concerned.
Though, like I said, I was forgetting backstab and target magic, so generally I guess agility would be better. As a Barbarian, though, I still don't see how agility is more valuable if your weapon has the same suitedness and the same balance. Your OF would be raised most by always raising the one which costs less TDPs.
Loosely it would work something like this...
Magic is funkier so I'll just use a weapon as an example.
Ranks + Strength bonus (modified by weapon's suitedness) + Agility bonus (modified by balance) = Offensive Force
Offensive Force - Defensive Force = actual damage you do.
A) I recall a discussion thread some time ago. People were whining about bows before they nerfed the agility reflex and Dartenian said something (I forget what) that inferred to me that this was how damage was handled.
B) One of the player polls (what do you want to do? hit harder, less often, hit more often but lighter, etc.) indicated to me that they eventually PLAN to separate to-hit and damage formulas, which would of course mean that they are currently the same.
Now reflex > stamina because evasion directly lowers your OF before you get hit. Stamina only lowers it after you get hit (among doing other things) so reflex is more valuable. However, to my knowledge there's nothing like evasion as far as offense is concerned.
Though, like I said, I was forgetting backstab and target magic, so generally I guess agility would be better. As a Barbarian, though, I still don't see how agility is more valuable if your weapon has the same suitedness and the same balance. Your OF would be raised most by always raising the one which costs less TDPs.
Maybe I'm starting to get a little confused... I'll move my response to the general discussions in the combat folder.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
ayup. definately gotta train that ranged, cause that way paladins won't "sense" you aimin' at 'em. but then you still gotta deal with their shield, whereas if you stab, they see you coming but they don't get to use shield as defense.
<<If nothing else, maybe some Magic Using guilds will now feel the joys of "You cannot steal here.", at least for a while.--Solomon>>
<<If nothing else, maybe some Magic Using guilds will now feel the joys of "You cannot steal here.", at least for a while.--Solomon>>
<<There aren't many paladins that can stop you from backstabbing them anyway, regardless of if they know you're coming>>
Unfortunately, GMPCs aren't trained like normal paladins.
<<If nothing else, maybe some Magic Using guilds will now feel the joys of "You cannot steal here.", at least for a while.--Solomon>>
Unfortunately, GMPCs aren't trained like normal paladins.
<<If nothing else, maybe some Magic Using guilds will now feel the joys of "You cannot steal here.", at least for a while.--Solomon>>
<<Unfortunately, GMPCs aren't trained like normal paladins.
Oh what I would do with BM privileges for a day. Don't you think you've ground the organ enough?
- Maje
Abstract ideas and religious associations based on the elements is something those skirt-wearing Clerics and fruity Bards are more likely to play with. Real wizards play with the primal stuff. - Armifer
Oh what I would do with BM privileges for a day. Don't you think you've ground the organ enough?
- Maje
Abstract ideas and religious associations based on the elements is something those skirt-wearing Clerics and fruity Bards are more likely to play with. Real wizards play with the primal stuff. - Armifer
<<Oh what I would do with BM privileges for a day.- Maje>>
#1 - in which case you wouldn't even last out the day, because restricting players opinions when what they post is not against board policy is not the job of a board monitor. As a former board monitor myself, I would encourage you to inquire with the GMs that are in charge of the boards in exactly what and what is not allowed if you don't believe me.
#2 - what I have brought up is a valid issue. Most of us play a game like Dragon Realms to "fantasize" a character that is significantly different from our RL persona. In the case of the thieves, playing a rich, and powerful crime lord. When you run first-hand into instances in which you cannot "feel" powerful - when you feel powerless to influence events, that smacks head-first into a diminishing of that fantasy. And hence is a "Negative" type reinforcement, to put it in Pavlovian terms. To put it simply, you don't feel much like an assassin if you can't even assassinate anyone!
<<If nothing else, maybe some Magic Using guilds will now feel the joys of "You cannot steal here.", at least for a while.--Solomon>>
#1 - in which case you wouldn't even last out the day, because restricting players opinions when what they post is not against board policy is not the job of a board monitor. As a former board monitor myself, I would encourage you to inquire with the GMs that are in charge of the boards in exactly what and what is not allowed if you don't believe me.
#2 - what I have brought up is a valid issue. Most of us play a game like Dragon Realms to "fantasize" a character that is significantly different from our RL persona. In the case of the thieves, playing a rich, and powerful crime lord. When you run first-hand into instances in which you cannot "feel" powerful - when you feel powerless to influence events, that smacks head-first into a diminishing of that fantasy. And hence is a "Negative" type reinforcement, to put it in Pavlovian terms. To put it simply, you don't feel much like an assassin if you can't even assassinate anyone!
<<If nothing else, maybe some Magic Using guilds will now feel the joys of "You cannot steal here.", at least for a while.--Solomon>>
Just cause I don't pvp ever day all day, doesnt mean i suck at it, i've won majority of my spars in my life. I might not always win but I am pretty darn good at still. Strength hasnt hurt me in any. Everyone has there own opinion tho and and I agree with you, thieves need more uses for the other stats so they cant just pump a few. Every Stat should be very important for every guild in my opinion. Sucks having my two lowest stats my only ones i have a bonus in, just because none of my attacks really use them.
Don't fear the dark, Fear what hides in it.
Don't fear the dark, Fear what hides in it.
>>LEYHANM: I thought public schools taught reading comprehension in 2nd grade?
>>DEVAN: You were wrong.
>>COBBLESTONEJUNGLE: What does that have to do with strength or the assassin title, hrm?
AGAIN. READING COMPREHENSION.
If you don't get it, go back and reread the three posts before my first.
Macro F12 - \xreport Someone is copying my name. Smite them.\r
>>DEVAN: You were wrong.
>>COBBLESTONEJUNGLE: What does that have to do with strength or the assassin title, hrm?
AGAIN. READING COMPREHENSION.
If you don't get it, go back and reread the three posts before my first.
Macro F12 - \xreport Someone is copying my name. Smite them.\r
>>LEYHANM: I thought public schools taught reading >>comprehension in 2nd grade?
>>DEVAN: You were wrong.
>>COBBLESTONEJUNGLE: What does that have to do with >>strength or the assassin title, hrm?
>>LEYHANM: AGAIN. READING COMPREHENSION.
again, what do any of these snarky comments have to do with the topic? sorry to have to spell it out for you, maybe some reading comprehension is in order?
>>DEVAN: You were wrong.
>>COBBLESTONEJUNGLE: What does that have to do with >>strength or the assassin title, hrm?
>>LEYHANM: AGAIN. READING COMPREHENSION.
again, what do any of these snarky comments have to do with the topic? sorry to have to spell it out for you, maybe some reading comprehension is in order?
Quite so..
>Points towards the conflict folder as he fades back into the chaos
Pomae
Any questions and/or comments can be sent to me at Mod-Pomae@Play.net, or Senior Board Moderator Annwyl at dr-annwyl@play.net or Board Supervisor Cecco at DR-Cecco@Play.net
>Points towards the conflict folder as he fades back into the chaos
Pomae
Any questions and/or comments can be sent to me at Mod-Pomae@Play.net, or Senior Board Moderator Annwyl at dr-annwyl@play.net or Board Supervisor Cecco at DR-Cecco@Play.net
>>I'm not at your level so I can't really spar you to prove my theory works too, Galren (that would be great) but I really don't see how agility is inherently more valuable than strength.
>>If you're using a standard R/R 2HE strength is just as important to the damage formula as agility is. Strength also modifies shield blockage, and shield is currently king in PvP.
>>If you had said reflex over stamina I'd agree with you though I'm not sure where you're getting agility over strength.
Sorry it took so long to respond.
The breakdown here is occuring with your second line where you start talking about using a 2HE. PvP is 99% ranged fighting unless you have a way to snare/slow/trap your opponent. Even if you can stop them in their tracks it is still makes sense to stick with a ranged weapon as to keep yourself out of harms way.
Would you really want to go toe-to-toe with a Barbarian?
Even if agility lacks the 2x or 3x or whatever modifier it once was it is still more useful in PvP then strenght considering ranged weapons gain no power from strength currently. I heard talk that this might change down the line when crafting bows becomes more complex.
All that being said - if I was going melee with another Barbarian and my strength was lagging a bit - the extra boost to strength might provide enough to lift my OF over his DF. However, I would probably still favor agility since the power behind the blow seems to make little difference when you land critical shots to the head or chest. They are gonna explode instantly once you reach a certain point. Beyond that - adding to strength is just silly in my opinion unless you're into brawling. The original Tropicalo had shown me just how disgusting high strength and brawling could be.
One final note. Reflexes > Strength when it comes to shield. Both are good - but look at TFPALADIN's (from TF) posts about having really high shield and super high strenght but mediocre reflexes. He was having a world of trouble blocking shots which he should have been able to block no problem if he had focused more on reflexes.
-Galren Moonskin
Tusfaov calmly says, "Excellent. The inner fire burns bright within your chest, Galren. You have achieved a new level of enlightenment."
!>You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde screaming in barbaric approval of your deeds.
>>If you're using a standard R/R 2HE strength is just as important to the damage formula as agility is. Strength also modifies shield blockage, and shield is currently king in PvP.
>>If you had said reflex over stamina I'd agree with you though I'm not sure where you're getting agility over strength.
Sorry it took so long to respond.
The breakdown here is occuring with your second line where you start talking about using a 2HE. PvP is 99% ranged fighting unless you have a way to snare/slow/trap your opponent. Even if you can stop them in their tracks it is still makes sense to stick with a ranged weapon as to keep yourself out of harms way.
Would you really want to go toe-to-toe with a Barbarian?
Even if agility lacks the 2x or 3x or whatever modifier it once was it is still more useful in PvP then strenght considering ranged weapons gain no power from strength currently. I heard talk that this might change down the line when crafting bows becomes more complex.
All that being said - if I was going melee with another Barbarian and my strength was lagging a bit - the extra boost to strength might provide enough to lift my OF over his DF. However, I would probably still favor agility since the power behind the blow seems to make little difference when you land critical shots to the head or chest. They are gonna explode instantly once you reach a certain point. Beyond that - adding to strength is just silly in my opinion unless you're into brawling. The original Tropicalo had shown me just how disgusting high strength and brawling could be.
One final note. Reflexes > Strength when it comes to shield. Both are good - but look at TFPALADIN's (from TF) posts about having really high shield and super high strenght but mediocre reflexes. He was having a world of trouble blocking shots which he should have been able to block no problem if he had focused more on reflexes.
-Galren Moonskin
Tusfaov calmly says, "Excellent. The inner fire burns bright within your chest, Galren. You have achieved a new level of enlightenment."
!>You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde screaming in barbaric approval of your deeds.
Anyone have a pinpoint on the assassin king reqs? I was seeing someone with the title hide and stalk with less than 400 perception so I'm assuming they had a custom title, but just wanted to make sure in case the reqs were less baller than I believed.
~Purehand
You feel that for the moment you've learned all you can about harming shopkeepers.
~Purehand
You feel that for the moment you've learned all you can about harming shopkeepers.
No wounds on him. Literally seeing them hide and slip behind critters. Does multi armor or burden take off that many ranks? That would be the only other thing I could thing of.
Yeah, khri skulk outs thieves like nothing else.
~Purehand
You feel that for the moment you've learned all you can about harming shopkeepers.
Yeah, khri skulk outs thieves like nothing else.
~Purehand
You feel that for the moment you've learned all you can about harming shopkeepers.
what kinda armor was he wearin? guaranteed if i were wearing plate or LP, or probably even HC, you'd see me hide/stalk too, and i'm nowhere near assassin king. <i believe 700 hiding/stalking/? backstab/? weapon rank possibly
<<If nothing else, maybe some Magic Using guilds will now feel the joys of "You cannot steal here.", at least for a while.--Solomon>>
<<If nothing else, maybe some Magic Using guilds will now feel the joys of "You cannot steal here.", at least for a while.--Solomon>>
>I've tried to hold out for a while, but any updates/vague timeframes for critter stealing, new justice and the khri rewrite?<
Large portions of justice are in QC now, khris are about to be, same with critter stealing. I'm hoping within the first 3 months of the year but I cannot make definitive promises on dates.
-Z
Large portions of justice are in QC now, khris are about to be, same with critter stealing. I'm hoping within the first 3 months of the year but I cannot make definitive promises on dates.
-Z
it also says 4 thief-only abilities. Ones I can think of that would be de regiore for an assassin -- you have all of the ambush abilities, poison making. possibly khri strike?
The undead hordes would like to take this moment to remind you that they are quite happy to eat your brains so that you may test new depart.Please consider it.Hugs and kisses, Team Necro.
The undead hordes would like to take this moment to remind you that they are quite happy to eat your brains so that you may test new depart.Please consider it.Hugs and kisses, Team Necro.
