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So.. been gone a while, came back and all my Kookies have been eaten.
Whats a lvl 50+ rogue to do. Just not sure anymore what is what in the Kookie department, like what ones are a MUST HAVE, what ones are needed to get other MUST HAVES, etc.
Im a hunter first and foremost, I like to melee and range and stealth and explore. I hate stealing, I always have. love boxes, always have. Before you judge on the stealing comment, be aware I was around when Backstab was boss. 1 hit, thing died, rinse and repeat which is why I chose this guild. Id hate to lose out on over 50 circles of grind by rerolling a ranger or barbarian or something so im trying to make this one work again but im so lost with new systems and syntax and this guild has traditionally been one of the more technically difficult guilds to be in.
Anywho, Kookie advice would be greatly appreciated and perhaps any other bits of important info regarding this guild or general DRing.
Thanks in advance.
"You can have anything the world offers, so long as you have the strength to take it, the skill to steal it or the nerve to kill for it."
Dusk, Chosen of Damaris
First off Khri are not considered a secret on the forums anymore so you can say Khri instead of Kookies.
Second check out this page if you haven't already: https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Khri
I'm not sure when the last time you played, and if you played under Khri 2.0. If you did play under Khri 2.0 then not a lot has changed. They have just been updated to 3.0 and have been given some functionality in how we start them.
The Khri combos have changed a bit, but they're still the same idea. If you are combat focused go after Spar and Speed. Skulk is for stealth, and Secure for opening boxes. Prescience and Cunning are a bit niche so I wouldn't use them as Khri to go after.
Khri that I think are a must have that aren't included in the combo Khri are Prowess (great for learning Debil and making PvE safer), Silence (inviso), Eliminate (can't get this till 70th, but it's a must have for Backstabbing).
The biggest change is how many Khri we can run. We used to be limited by our max Concentration (and a total of 7), now we are limited by our Concentration regeneration rate. You can start as many Khri as you want now, but they will drain your Concentration faster the more you run. So you will have to find a balance of how many Khri you can have up at once and how quickly your Concentration regens. To help with that, your Concentration regen goes up for every 50 points in Concentration that you have. So keep that in mind when training stats.
Second check out this page if you haven't already: https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Khri
I'm not sure when the last time you played, and if you played under Khri 2.0. If you did play under Khri 2.0 then not a lot has changed. They have just been updated to 3.0 and have been given some functionality in how we start them.
The Khri combos have changed a bit, but they're still the same idea. If you are combat focused go after Spar and Speed. Skulk is for stealth, and Secure for opening boxes. Prescience and Cunning are a bit niche so I wouldn't use them as Khri to go after.
Khri that I think are a must have that aren't included in the combo Khri are Prowess (great for learning Debil and making PvE safer), Silence (inviso), Eliminate (can't get this till 70th, but it's a must have for Backstabbing).
The biggest change is how many Khri we can run. We used to be limited by our max Concentration (and a total of 7), now we are limited by our Concentration regeneration rate. You can start as many Khri as you want now, but they will drain your Concentration faster the more you run. So you will have to find a balance of how many Khri you can have up at once and how quickly your Concentration regens. To help with that, your Concentration regen goes up for every 50 points in Concentration that you have. So keep that in mind when training stats.
<<Im a hunter first and foremost, I like to melee and range and stealth and explore. I hate stealing, I always have. love boxes, always have. Before you judge on the stealing comment, be aware I was around when Backstab was boss. 1 hit, thing died, rinse and repeat which is why I chose this guild.
Just go with the Khri to support the things you like to do and you'll be happy. (I.e. combat buffs, box buffs, etc.) Once you pick all of those you'll still have extra slots to spend and can branch out. Around 50th circle you should be able to run around 3 khri at a time without resource issues depending on how high your concentration is, unless they're higher tier ones in which case you'll probably be able to do two. I mention this, because it helps to plan out which combination of krhi you're going to use for a given situation. E.g. if you like a specific 3 khri combo for melee combat then choosing another melee combat khri isn't going to be as useful for you until you get more concentration. That said, flexibility is always nice to have.
As for things to avoid or be aware of...
Train debilitation with ambushes instead of Khri. The khri are a pain to train it with. Don't completely avoid the debilitation Khri, but don't rush to get them either. Since you like backstabbing so much, Eliminate is one you'll want to plan to get at 70th so make sure you have the prereqs for it by then. Backstab isn't the one hit kill that it used to be, but it's still pretty powerful if all your tools are stacked in support of it.
Ones to avoid until you have nothing else left to spend slots on would be Liberation and Serenity. They're pretty situational and unless you're PvPing a lot versus certain guilds you won't get much use out of them. Even then there's probably better Khri to use.
Also, Khri are allowed to be called Khri on the forums now. No need for silly euphemisms anymore.
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Just go with the Khri to support the things you like to do and you'll be happy. (I.e. combat buffs, box buffs, etc.) Once you pick all of those you'll still have extra slots to spend and can branch out. Around 50th circle you should be able to run around 3 khri at a time without resource issues depending on how high your concentration is, unless they're higher tier ones in which case you'll probably be able to do two. I mention this, because it helps to plan out which combination of krhi you're going to use for a given situation. E.g. if you like a specific 3 khri combo for melee combat then choosing another melee combat khri isn't going to be as useful for you until you get more concentration. That said, flexibility is always nice to have.
As for things to avoid or be aware of...
Train debilitation with ambushes instead of Khri. The khri are a pain to train it with. Don't completely avoid the debilitation Khri, but don't rush to get them either. Since you like backstabbing so much, Eliminate is one you'll want to plan to get at 70th so make sure you have the prereqs for it by then. Backstab isn't the one hit kill that it used to be, but it's still pretty powerful if all your tools are stacked in support of it.
Ones to avoid until you have nothing else left to spend slots on would be Liberation and Serenity. They're pretty situational and unless you're PvPing a lot versus certain guilds you won't get much use out of them. Even then there's probably better Khri to use.
Also, Khri are allowed to be called Khri on the forums now. No need for silly euphemisms anymore.
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>>Ones to avoid until you have nothing else left to spend slots on would be Liberation and Serenity.
I'd add Sagacity to this, though you can't get it till you have Serenity anyways. As a barrier it's useful, but it is one of the highest tier Khri (which means it drains Concentration very fast), and the duration is pretty short. I wouldn't expect it to be viable to use in PvE till you have 400+ Utility/IM.
I'd add Sagacity to this, though you can't get it till you have Serenity anyways. As a barrier it's useful, but it is one of the highest tier Khri (which means it drains Concentration very fast), and the duration is pretty short. I wouldn't expect it to be viable to use in PvE till you have 400+ Utility/IM.
So, the thief magic system is basically bizarre and not really related to any other reasonable method. You also got grandfathered a bunch of magic ranks, but not really enough to be 'great' at-level. It's still a system that uses concentration to determine your potency and how many khri you can run at once (and for how long). So discipline is the real prime mover for any thief now.
You're going to want to pick up Khri to train with. And if you are only 50th, you got grandfathered to about where I did, so you're going to want to run 1-2 tier 1 abilities of each flavor, depending on your concentration. So probably focus, hasten, and
And...that's honestly it. Just run those 2-4 khri 24x7. That's the best (i.e. only) way to train your magic ranks. I flat out gave up wasting my time and energy trying to put combat khri in my combat script. They're not impressive in effect, and it's just a hassle. Once one of each tier doesn't teach, try two. If that doesn't teach, try a single tier 2 ability.
Part of the problem is selection and the rank spread on these. There just aren't enough options at any tier to allow you to mix and match IF you want to learn at all. You're basically stuck with using stupid combinations that don't benefit you, because that's what you've got and that's what will teach without tanking your entire concentration pool.
Don't use a debilitation khri either. Just use ambush stun or slash. Debilitation khri require stupid amounts of concentration and have poor duration until you hit 300+ ranks of debilitation.
Great for PvP or short burst hunting where you don't have to constantly reapply though!
You're going to want to pick up Khri to train with. And if you are only 50th, you got grandfathered to about where I did, so you're going to want to run 1-2 tier 1 abilities of each flavor, depending on your concentration. So probably focus, hasten, and
And...that's honestly it. Just run those 2-4 khri 24x7. That's the best (i.e. only) way to train your magic ranks. I flat out gave up wasting my time and energy trying to put combat khri in my combat script. They're not impressive in effect, and it's just a hassle. Once one of each tier doesn't teach, try two. If that doesn't teach, try a single tier 2 ability.
Part of the problem is selection and the rank spread on these. There just aren't enough options at any tier to allow you to mix and match IF you want to learn at all. You're basically stuck with using stupid combinations that don't benefit you, because that's what you've got and that's what will teach without tanking your entire concentration pool.
Don't use a debilitation khri either. Just use ambush stun or slash. Debilitation khri require stupid amounts of concentration and have poor duration until you hit 300+ ranks of debilitation.
Great for PvP or short burst hunting where you don't have to constantly reapply though!
Dusk, kick your IM back on and I'll get you squared away brother. I came back at 50th as well, and never had a problem with magic. It's all in how you train it. I got you mang. I've still got Mrhankeyil (you know, because talking poop is funny... or at least was in 1999).
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
Vickers,
I have explained my method for working magic several times on this forum, and I really don't feel like listening to some BS from you about how it doesn't work or blah blah blah when my thief came back with his highest magic skill at 110 due to grandfathering and now that same skill is pushing mid 500s. It works, you just aren't doing it right. Either because you can't see the forest through the trees, of because you don't want to listen. I'm going to help those that want help, as I always have. I'm tired of arguing with someone whos most experience with the system is through 60th circle. If you are 60th and can't keep more than one or two khri up, you need to reevaluate things. That part of the system isn't broke, you are doing it wrong. The part about not having a reliable way for thieves to train debil before stun/clout is what's wrong. THAT is a travesty and should be addressed. Everything else is doable.
Grandfathering was nothing more than training wheels to get you rolling. And it was pretty subpar which was my complaint about it when it was being proposed. Smaller or newer thieves have a pretty good advantage over the older chars because thier magics will be much higher by the time they hit the same circle if they are training well. I know this because I've proven it between my own characters, apprentices, and other people I've helped both here and IG.
If you would like to stop being snarky, you can simply ask and I will reiterate one mo gain how I train magic. But I could care less you or anyone else's opinion of it. It works. I'm not here for that argument.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
I have explained my method for working magic several times on this forum, and I really don't feel like listening to some BS from you about how it doesn't work or blah blah blah when my thief came back with his highest magic skill at 110 due to grandfathering and now that same skill is pushing mid 500s. It works, you just aren't doing it right. Either because you can't see the forest through the trees, of because you don't want to listen. I'm going to help those that want help, as I always have. I'm tired of arguing with someone whos most experience with the system is through 60th circle. If you are 60th and can't keep more than one or two khri up, you need to reevaluate things. That part of the system isn't broke, you are doing it wrong. The part about not having a reliable way for thieves to train debil before stun/clout is what's wrong. THAT is a travesty and should be addressed. Everything else is doable.
Grandfathering was nothing more than training wheels to get you rolling. And it was pretty subpar which was my complaint about it when it was being proposed. Smaller or newer thieves have a pretty good advantage over the older chars because thier magics will be much higher by the time they hit the same circle if they are training well. I know this because I've proven it between my own characters, apprentices, and other people I've helped both here and IG.
If you would like to stop being snarky, you can simply ask and I will reiterate one mo gain how I train magic. But I could care less you or anyone else's opinion of it. It works. I'm not here for that argument.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
Between stealing runs, debil khri in combat, and occasionally doing a meditation session; I can keep all my skills pretty easily locked up nearly the entire time I'm in the game.
The recent change to how debil trains using khri was a godsend, but I do agree if you're too young to have access to good ambushes or prowess then it can be super rough.
The Kasto mimic abruptly solidifies, looking very much like Kasto.
>
You say, "What a handsome fellow you are!"
The recent change to how debil trains using khri was a godsend, but I do agree if you're too young to have access to good ambushes or prowess then it can be super rough.
The Kasto mimic abruptly solidifies, looking very much like Kasto.
>
You say, "What a handsome fellow you are!"
>I'm just now playing with a thief post 3.1, but don't you just put up khris and khri med over and over?
You can, but it's not really the ideal. Some people do it, the same as some people do all their magic training out of combat. Meditate is a bit more restrictive though, since it's a lot of RT for a single action, as opposed to prep/charge/forage/cast.
You can, but it's not really the ideal. Some people do it, the same as some people do all their magic training out of combat. Meditate is a bit more restrictive though, since it's a lot of RT for a single action, as opposed to prep/charge/forage/cast.
>I have explained my method for working magic several times on this forum
I figured, ok, I forgot something. Happens a lot, I'm a terrible person (etc.). So I went through the thief forums trying to find it. I found post 2817 in the General Discussions folder. Where you say:
>My opinion my not be popular, it rarely is. But I'll tell you this, I chose khri in combat that would teach me magic, and didn't care about anything else. I don't use them as a crutch for hunting. I don't use debil khri because debil is easy to get. The only thing I do differently as I gain skill/stats is add more khri to use conc up, to train magics better.
This is, verbatim, what I just told him. Oh wait, I left out:
>What you need is discipline, and lots of it. Train it now and train it hard at the expense of all else for a while. When you have 300 concentration, your worries will just begin to end. 350 is much easier. Beyond that is a cakewalk.
No, wait, I said he needed more discipline.
I simply couched it differently.
I figured, ok, I forgot something. Happens a lot, I'm a terrible person (etc.). So I went through the thief forums trying to find it. I found post 2817 in the General Discussions folder. Where you say:
>My opinion my not be popular, it rarely is. But I'll tell you this, I chose khri in combat that would teach me magic, and didn't care about anything else. I don't use them as a crutch for hunting. I don't use debil khri because debil is easy to get. The only thing I do differently as I gain skill/stats is add more khri to use conc up, to train magics better.
This is, verbatim, what I just told him. Oh wait, I left out:
>What you need is discipline, and lots of it. Train it now and train it hard at the expense of all else for a while. When you have 300 concentration, your worries will just begin to end. 350 is much easier. Beyond that is a cakewalk.
No, wait, I said he needed more discipline.
I simply couched it differently.
I think that was time...4342 I explained it. I've also given a list of what khri I used at the time too. And they are all beneficial, its not like you are boosting athletics. It just may not be the uber boost to whatever that you were looking for.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
>I think that was time...4342 I explained it. I've also given a list of what khri I used at the time too. And they are all beneficial, its not like you are boosting athletics. It just may not be the uber boost to whatever that you were looking for.
Someone explained to me that we're basically saying the same thing, you're just doing it better.
To me a 'not useful' boost is having to run dampen and safe in combat, because those are the two khri I have that really benefit me right now. A much more useful khri for me would be strike, avoidance, etc.
But due to how the system works, I'm basically best off using less than ideal (and less than my strongest) buffs. I dislike that, which is why I said I 'gave up' on khri in general.
I should also clarify that I meant I gave up really trying to use them in combat, because I just run whatever will teach me. Learning, in general, isn't quite what I'd like (I still prefer the magic system as a whole and think khri are a poor compromise all around for both the magic and not magic sides), and I find the system as a whole a step back from the fairly intuitive magic system.
So I'm sorry for the hostile responses.
I'd also like to point out that my snarky reply earlier was less aimed at you educating me than just educating the other people who read here. As I said, I've made my bed, but if your friend is having problems, odds are someone else is too.
Someone explained to me that we're basically saying the same thing, you're just doing it better.
To me a 'not useful' boost is having to run dampen and safe in combat, because those are the two khri I have that really benefit me right now. A much more useful khri for me would be strike, avoidance, etc.
But due to how the system works, I'm basically best off using less than ideal (and less than my strongest) buffs. I dislike that, which is why I said I 'gave up' on khri in general.
I should also clarify that I meant I gave up really trying to use them in combat, because I just run whatever will teach me. Learning, in general, isn't quite what I'd like (I still prefer the magic system as a whole and think khri are a poor compromise all around for both the magic and not magic sides), and I find the system as a whole a step back from the fairly intuitive magic system.
So I'm sorry for the hostile responses.
I'd also like to point out that my snarky reply earlier was less aimed at you educating me than just educating the other people who read here. As I said, I've made my bed, but if your friend is having problems, odds are someone else is too.
<<The recent change to how debil trains using khri was a godsend,
Oh yeah, I forgot about that. I don't think I've played my thief since that change happened. I should test out Prowess now just to see how it goes. I found stun ambushing to train Debilitation more efficiently (especially since it taught Backstab simultaneously) and being low level there were more important and less concentration draining khri options to use in place of Prowess, but that balance of resource vs. training might be different now.
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Oh yeah, I forgot about that. I don't think I've played my thief since that change happened. I should test out Prowess now just to see how it goes. I found stun ambushing to train Debilitation more efficiently (especially since it taught Backstab simultaneously) and being low level there were more important and less concentration draining khri options to use in place of Prowess, but that balance of resource vs. training might be different now.
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>>being low level there were more important and less concentration draining khri options to use in place of Prowess, but that balance of resource vs. training might be different now.
It really comes down to your Concentration. If you don't have the regen to run it plus other Khri (which at 50th is hard to do, especially with grandfathered magics) then the change isn't really going to help things.
The biggest impact I noticed with the change is that I could learn Debil while backtraining because my Debil ranks are in the training range of the critter, even though I completely outclass them in stats. I only learned it in at-level combat previously.
I tried Ambush Choke on my F2P Thief today and the learning didn't seem much better, but I didn't test it very much.
It really comes down to your Concentration. If you don't have the regen to run it plus other Khri (which at 50th is hard to do, especially with grandfathered magics) then the change isn't really going to help things.
The biggest impact I noticed with the change is that I could learn Debil while backtraining because my Debil ranks are in the training range of the critter, even though I completely outclass them in stats. I only learned it in at-level combat previously.
I tried Ambush Choke on my F2P Thief today and the learning didn't seem much better, but I didn't test it very much.
<<I tried Ambush Choke on my F2P Thief today and the learning didn't seem much better, but I didn't test it very much.
Ambush Choke sucked for learning. Ambush Stun is much better at it. I think it's because choke has a longer duration whereas stun only lasts for the shorter duration of a stun.
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Ambush Choke sucked for learning. Ambush Stun is much better at it. I think it's because choke has a longer duration whereas stun only lasts for the shorter duration of a stun.
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<<Dusk, Chosen of Damaris>>
Hey! Welcome back!
Have a kookie!
(Phht. Old habits die hard, folks.)
As suggested you'll definitely want to check out https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Khri.
Though, I'd first suggest you take a look at the concentration changes. They're what enable you to fuel your mojo so it's imperative to not ignore discipline.
https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Concentration
I don't want to steer you too strongly one way or another but I will say don't rush to build / enable the "packaged" khri (skulk/spar/etc.) until you've picked up the fundamentals from each tree. The pre-packaged khri are gravy but you want to make sure you get the meat and potatoes first. ;)
Stick with it. When I first came back from a looooong break it took me awhile to get adjusted but once I did ... started having .. dare I say it .. fun again ?
/salute
-Ssra
Hey! Welcome back!
Have a kookie!
(Phht. Old habits die hard, folks.)
As suggested you'll definitely want to check out https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Khri.
Though, I'd first suggest you take a look at the concentration changes. They're what enable you to fuel your mojo so it's imperative to not ignore discipline.
https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Concentration
I don't want to steer you too strongly one way or another but I will say don't rush to build / enable the "packaged" khri (skulk/spar/etc.) until you've picked up the fundamentals from each tree. The pre-packaged khri are gravy but you want to make sure you get the meat and potatoes first. ;)
Stick with it. When I first came back from a looooong break it took me awhile to get adjusted but once I did ... started having .. dare I say it .. fun again ?
/salute
-Ssra
>Each 50 concentration is another +1 tick to your concentration. It makes a noticeable difference when using multiple khri.
For the idiots in the audience, could you explain that? Does it mean that every 50 points gives you a passive +1 regen? Or that each 50 gives you lower cost per tick?
For the idiots in the audience, could you explain that? Does it mean that every 50 points gives you a passive +1 regen? Or that each 50 gives you lower cost per tick?
<<>Does it mean that every 50 points gives you a passive +1 regen?
Yup. I think it's just 2% of your maximum concentration per pulse, and since the game almost always rounds down to the nearest integer you only see an actual increase in the amount every 50 ranks. E.g.
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Yup. I think it's just 2% of your maximum concentration per pulse, and since the game almost always rounds down to the nearest integer you only see an actual increase in the amount every 50 ranks. E.g.
| Concentration | Conc * 0.02 | Actual regeneration |
| 99 | 1.98 | +1 |
| 100 | 2.00 | +2 |
| 149 | 2.98 | +2 |
| 150 | 3.00 | +3 |
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I'm curious what you were doing wrong Vickers.
And I've said it for a long while, concentration is king when you are little. Dont let that dominate you, but getting to 300 concentration should be a goal for every young thief. Your are better able to rely on well planned khri choices at that point to get you through until you can drop the big ones on the bad guys. Branch out once you can get some decent khri going. All stats are important for a thief, its a blessing and a curse, and is one of the reasons anyone I help becomes a tdp machine like elec is. Its just too tough to stay relevant in the long run as a thief doing it old school and only working 3 weapons.
That being said, there are some people who build exclusively for khri and allow thier stats to sit at menial levels because thier khri are so powerful that they can make up for the shortcoming in stats. It was a real eye opener to meet and become friends with one of those thieves, even if he does run his char weird as hell. It's not optimal for everyone, and dare I say... Hardly anyone(its total garbage for pvp). But it works for him, with all the specific ducks in a row he actually out performs me at level in the same hunting areas.
IMO Thief magic is pretty robust (though I am still not a fan, I like the tdps), but there are some definate shortcomings. The need for an area disabler would be nice. And not something that I have to hold 5728 different items and swap hands or hold some special crap. If we are going to have magic, let it be magic.
Also, runestones. LOL
Monster Elec the TDPimp (old school for you)
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
And I've said it for a long while, concentration is king when you are little. Dont let that dominate you, but getting to 300 concentration should be a goal for every young thief. Your are better able to rely on well planned khri choices at that point to get you through until you can drop the big ones on the bad guys. Branch out once you can get some decent khri going. All stats are important for a thief, its a blessing and a curse, and is one of the reasons anyone I help becomes a tdp machine like elec is. Its just too tough to stay relevant in the long run as a thief doing it old school and only working 3 weapons.
That being said, there are some people who build exclusively for khri and allow thier stats to sit at menial levels because thier khri are so powerful that they can make up for the shortcoming in stats. It was a real eye opener to meet and become friends with one of those thieves, even if he does run his char weird as hell. It's not optimal for everyone, and dare I say... Hardly anyone(its total garbage for pvp). But it works for him, with all the specific ducks in a row he actually out performs me at level in the same hunting areas.
IMO Thief magic is pretty robust (though I am still not a fan, I like the tdps), but there are some definate shortcomings. The need for an area disabler would be nice. And not something that I have to hold 5728 different items and swap hands or hold some special crap. If we are going to have magic, let it be magic.
Also, runestones. LOL
Monster Elec the TDPimp (old school for you)
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
>> All stats are important for a thief, its a blessing and a curse, and is one of the reasons anyone I help becomes a tdp machine like elec is. Its just too tough to stay relevant in the long run as a thief doing it old school and only working 3 weapons.
Words cannot express how much I hate this aspect of the system :< I wish people weren't so heavily incentivized to train every single skill purely for TDPs.
Thayet
Twitter: @thayelf
Tumblr: thayette.tumblr.com
Words cannot express how much I hate this aspect of the system :< I wish people weren't so heavily incentivized to train every single skill purely for TDPs.
Thayet
Twitter: @thayelf
Tumblr: thayette.tumblr.com
Just wanted to say Ssra, I followed your link and got this for a message.
There is currently no text in this page. You can search for this page title in other pages, or search the related logs.
with the word Khri as the title.
"You can have anything the world offers, so long as you have the strength to take it, the skill to steal it or the nerve to kill for it."
Dusk, Chosen of Damaris
Thayet, I don't do it solely for tdps. I've always trained a ton of skills. That's why Elec was always "Beast" Elec. When he hit 20k ranks at 90th, he graduated to "Monster". That's part of my fun though. I like seeing how far I can push the envelope. Circle reqs are a joke. The tdps are a fun side effect and honestly with how important ALL stats are for Thieves, I feel it's silly not to train like a beast. But that's me. I pve Elec so that he's viable in pvp. That's how I've always ran my characters.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
>All stats are important for a thief, its a blessing and a curse
>Words cannot express how much I hate this aspect of the system
It really is not as bad as most people make it out to be. At 115th circle my thief has 10 charisma. Is charisma important... Sure just not as much as other things. I view confidence as more an endgame type bonus. Much better IMO to go for static changes. My thief also started in Ratha Celps with 23 reflex and agility. Things are doable you just have to be willing to think outside the box. On top of this I have a trader who is now hunting gryphons with 14 agil and reflex.
Some stats are way over valued for PvE. Would these character have a tough time with PvP? Sure. Is it possible to leave some stats low in order to advance others? From my standpoint yes it is.
Do you really need high strength? At 115th my thief has 30 strength. I am not saying that you can completely ignore any particular stat training just try to keep an open mind when planning out your stats and check things first before just assuming that one way is the only way. When it come to strength training I view the benefits like this. Encumbrance from strength gains you 20 stones of encumbrance per stat point. Stamina however gets you 20 stones of encumbrance with every other stat point netting you 30 stones. So for encumbrance stamina is slightly more important than strength.
Will all that said, for PvE purposes you really don't need high agility (use higher balanced weapons to help compensate here) or reflex (low hindrance is a must for this). Strength training for thieves viewed solely toward a minimum to ambush with certain types of weapons. Charisma is overvalued early on (IMO a static difference serves me better than a dynamic one). So that leaves you able to put a stronger focus on discipline, intel and stamina (perfect for concentration)
<<Just wanted to say Ssra, I followed your link and got this for a message.
The forums don't handle punctuation and links very well. Delete the final period from the link or just enter khri into the search bar on the page the link takes you to. That said, it's the same link that Ninevah linked earlier in the thread so you've probably already seen it. His second link should work for you and details more specifics about the concentration stat.
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators
The forums don't handle punctuation and links very well. Delete the final period from the link or just enter khri into the search bar on the page the link takes you to. That said, it's the same link that Ninevah linked earlier in the thread so you've probably already seen it. His second link should work for you and details more specifics about the concentration stat.
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators
It's fine that some people do it for funsies, I more mean the pressure that exists to do that whether you find it fun or not because not doing it means having a huge TDP deficit you can never make up.
I wish there was a cap on the number of TDPs you could get per skillset, and the TDPs from circling went way way up. But that's a bit outside the purview of this thread.
Thayet
Twitter: @thayelf
Tumblr: thayette.tumblr.com
I wish there was a cap on the number of TDPs you could get per skillset, and the TDPs from circling went way way up. But that's a bit outside the purview of this thread.
Thayet
Twitter: @thayelf
Tumblr: thayette.tumblr.com
<<At 115th circle my thief has 10 charisma. Is charisma important... Sure just not as much as other things.
This is just another extreme with respect to stat training. TBH you're kind of shooting yourself in the foot since you are not getting any sort of real thief bonus at all. I would recommend any thief to get it to 30 at least. Certainly not as a primary focus, and getting it past 30 becomes more of a personal taste thing... but 10 charisma at 115th is well past the expiry date of when that basic milestone should have been reached. I mean, even a character that isn't TDP chasing is going to have stats well into the 60s and 70s by that point.
https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Confidence
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
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This is just another extreme with respect to stat training. TBH you're kind of shooting yourself in the foot since you are not getting any sort of real thief bonus at all. I would recommend any thief to get it to 30 at least. Certainly not as a primary focus, and getting it past 30 becomes more of a personal taste thing... but 10 charisma at 115th is well past the expiry date of when that basic milestone should have been reached. I mean, even a character that isn't TDP chasing is going to have stats well into the 60s and 70s by that point.
https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Confidence
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Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators
>but 10 charisma at 115th is well past the expiry date of when that basic milestone should have been reached
Perhaps.
>This is just another extreme with respect to stat training
Agreed. Just making a point that it is not absolutely needed. The extreme part of this is in 2.0 at 86th with 99 discipline something had to give and charisma along with almost every other stat had to give to accomplish this especially as a halfling.
I do not advise anyone train stats the way that I have chosen to. Only pointing out where the mindset was for training this way. I take stat training to extremes which is something that I do not advise to others. Just pointing out that it can be done. People have argued for years that a discipline build is not a valid option for thieves. It most certainly was in 2.0 and in thief 3.x concentration is paramount.
Concentration : 460 Max : 500
This also is extreme. My advice is to learn what each stat is really doing for your toon. Then you can adjust your stat training to best fit with getting you concentration to a point where you can use your abilities. Then asses the benefits of each stat again. I would put a very strong focus on getting concentration to 250 to start with.
Perhaps.
>This is just another extreme with respect to stat training
Agreed. Just making a point that it is not absolutely needed. The extreme part of this is in 2.0 at 86th with 99 discipline something had to give and charisma along with almost every other stat had to give to accomplish this especially as a halfling.
I do not advise anyone train stats the way that I have chosen to. Only pointing out where the mindset was for training this way. I take stat training to extremes which is something that I do not advise to others. Just pointing out that it can be done. People have argued for years that a discipline build is not a valid option for thieves. It most certainly was in 2.0 and in thief 3.x concentration is paramount.
Concentration : 460 Max : 500
This also is extreme. My advice is to learn what each stat is really doing for your toon. Then you can adjust your stat training to best fit with getting you concentration to a point where you can use your abilities. Then asses the benefits of each stat again. I would put a very strong focus on getting concentration to 250 to start with.
<<Just pointing out that it can be done. People have argued for years that a discipline build is not a valid option for thieves. It most certainly was in 2.0 and in thief 3.x concentration is paramount.
I'm not sure trading a stacking buff to all thiefly survival skills for being able to run an additional khri slightly sooner is worth the trade off.
E.g. Assuming CHA/DIS exist in a bubble and not counting racial modifiers, it would take 1230 tdps to train charisma from 10 to 30. Keeping the same focus on getting discipline to 99 but using 1230 of the tdps that would be spent on discipline on charisma instead would result in having 94 discipline in the same time it took to get 99 without the charisma. That's a total of 15 less concentration which might result in 1 less concentration regeneration every pulse. As a halfling, it's even less since there's a penalty to discipline. All at a cost of a near constant bonus to stealth, backstab, and stealing. It's just not worth the extreme focus.
Can it be done? Perhaps. But it's certainly making things more difficult for a small benefit that is overshadowed by the loss needed to achieve it. I can't imagine why anyone would want to do it except to play a concept or challenge character or something.
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
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I'm not sure trading a stacking buff to all thiefly survival skills for being able to run an additional khri slightly sooner is worth the trade off.
E.g. Assuming CHA/DIS exist in a bubble and not counting racial modifiers, it would take 1230 tdps to train charisma from 10 to 30. Keeping the same focus on getting discipline to 99 but using 1230 of the tdps that would be spent on discipline on charisma instead would result in having 94 discipline in the same time it took to get 99 without the charisma. That's a total of 15 less concentration which might result in 1 less concentration regeneration every pulse. As a halfling, it's even less since there's a penalty to discipline. All at a cost of a near constant bonus to stealth, backstab, and stealing. It's just not worth the extreme focus.
Can it be done? Perhaps. But it's certainly making things more difficult for a small benefit that is overshadowed by the loss needed to achieve it. I can't imagine why anyone would want to do it except to play a concept or challenge character or something.
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators
That's not saying much.
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Let's not derail this tread. My entire point was to show a mindset that can allow a young thief to advance toward a goal of raising stats to get thier concentration to a point that they can reliably use thier abilities. I have never stated don't train charisma or any other stat, only a fact that one would need to understand what each stat is actually doing for them, with a few examples however extreme they may be.
Absolon, just because you don't agree with how he's doing it doesn't make it wrong or right. Elec will stomp the crap out of anything at level, Rwillards thief does it better. I've made the same argument as you time and time again. He's not an idiot, he knows more about this game than most of the monkeys that post thier incorrect gibberish here or on epedia. It doesn't make sense to me as a player, but it clearly works. And it works well for him. Will it work for most people? No. But it IS another option, and one ive seen in person to some great effect. It is also a far more difficult path to take.
For an example, we both had relitively the same combats going into ratha celps. I had "normal" stats, and he with his odd set up. Our skills were all arguably within 10-20 ranks of each other on anything pertinent. He hunted there a full two months before I could. I had to grind it out in zealots to make it over some unknown bubble where my skill (and max confidence/in town bonus) just couldn't do what he could because of khri. I still argue with him, and he's come around to a few things, but I doubt that it's because of anything I said or "proved". Probably more because he's tired of hearing me gripe at him.
Dont get mad you are getting taken to school. Study up.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
For an example, we both had relitively the same combats going into ratha celps. I had "normal" stats, and he with his odd set up. Our skills were all arguably within 10-20 ranks of each other on anything pertinent. He hunted there a full two months before I could. I had to grind it out in zealots to make it over some unknown bubble where my skill (and max confidence/in town bonus) just couldn't do what he could because of khri. I still argue with him, and he's come around to a few things, but I doubt that it's because of anything I said or "proved". Probably more because he's tired of hearing me gripe at him.
Dont get mad you are getting taken to school. Study up.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
