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>just because you don't agree with how he's doing it doesn't make it wrong or right
I don't require others to agree with my methods. I run many different tests before training any stat. With the way my stats are setup I could easily overload myself. Which is only a small part of why I do NOT recommend it 100% to others.
Doing a few quick calculations it looks like for a human to get to 250 concentration would need something like 50 discipline and 40 intel and stamina. This alone would require an investment of around 7,951 TDPs. Now to circle to 50 would net around 5,825 just from circling leaving 2,126 to have to gain from ranks.
I do not expect this to be popular or really viable
str 10 refrex 10
agil 10 charisma 10
disc 50 wisdom 10
intel 40 stam 40
That actually looks pretty bad even to me. The reason I set the bar at 250 concentration is due to this. 250/50 = 5. then x 2 = 10. Now subtract 2 because I don't calculate startup costs and that leaves 8. This 8 concentration regen would be the most one could actually use with consistantcy and ease. So that would leave someone with (factoring only upkeep costs) the ability to run 2 - 3 khri at once. By subtracting 2 and ignoring startup costs this leave a small window that also can be used with various ambushes. However you will need to space out your ambushes to at a minimum of around every third hit or so. I think most people would agree that being able to use 3 abilities at the same time is not too much to ask especially at 50th circle. If you couple that with an ambush every third strike or so that is more like 4 abilities simultaneously.
Now, being that I don't expect anyone to get all exited over crappy stats and decide to train thier stats simular to the example above, and the fact that I personally think 250 concentration is the minimum for a thief to start being able to stack thier abilities with any sort of hope for being able to put them back up once they expire; perhaps some new tool for lower levels to assist with training debilitation or something simular that does not have to be so taxing on concentration would be justified. 50th with the above stats is IMO a rather large investment just to really be getting started. And would feel more extreme than the examples labeled extreme earlier in this thread.
<<Also, do some checking on how concentration regen works. It does not work how you seem to think it does.
If you're referring to the 2% of max concentration then I don't have confirmation of that exact formula, since that is a behind the scenes thing. But 2% regeneration per pulse matches the observable data as far as I can see on my characters.
If you're referring to this statement:
<That's a total of 15 less concentration which might result in 1 less concentration regeneration every pulse.
There is nothing inaccurate about that. A difference of 5 discipline results in a difference of 15 concentration, which may result in a difference of 1 regeneration per pulse or no difference at all depending on what the max concentration is. That effectively means maybe an extra 2 concentration per khri pulse which is enough to maintain an additional 1st tier khri. It's certainly a heck of a lot less of a difference compared to someone who had trained more balanced stats, but that's not the context in which the statement was made.
If you're referring to something else then I don't know what that might be, since those are the only references to concentration regen I've made.
<<perhaps some new tool for lower levels to assist with training debilitation or something simular that does not have to be so taxing on concentration would be justified.
This I can agree with. It's certainly a lot better than monkeying with a crazy stat spread.
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If you're referring to the 2% of max concentration then I don't have confirmation of that exact formula, since that is a behind the scenes thing. But 2% regeneration per pulse matches the observable data as far as I can see on my characters.
If you're referring to this statement:
<That's a total of 15 less concentration which might result in 1 less concentration regeneration every pulse.
There is nothing inaccurate about that. A difference of 5 discipline results in a difference of 15 concentration, which may result in a difference of 1 regeneration per pulse or no difference at all depending on what the max concentration is. That effectively means maybe an extra 2 concentration per khri pulse which is enough to maintain an additional 1st tier khri. It's certainly a heck of a lot less of a difference compared to someone who had trained more balanced stats, but that's not the context in which the statement was made.
If you're referring to something else then I don't know what that might be, since those are the only references to concentration regen I've made.
<<perhaps some new tool for lower levels to assist with training debilitation or something simular that does not have to be so taxing on concentration would be justified.
This I can agree with. It's certainly a lot better than monkeying with a crazy stat spread.
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And just to be clear, what I'm saying is that if you're going to go something like the following route...
str 10 refrex 10
agil 10 charisma 10
disc 50 wisdom 10
intel 40 stam 40
...then on your way to capping Discipline from that point that you'd be better off training charisma along the way as well instead of just training discipline to the complete exclusion of charisma. The reason being since by the time you would have ended up with 99 disciple doing the latter you would still have trained 94 discipline and had all the benefits that 30 charisma has for the majority of that time for the former. I don't believe the one extra first tier khri is worth that difference.
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str 10 refrex 10
agil 10 charisma 10
disc 50 wisdom 10
intel 40 stam 40
...then on your way to capping Discipline from that point that you'd be better off training charisma along the way as well instead of just training discipline to the complete exclusion of charisma. The reason being since by the time you would have ended up with 99 disciple doing the latter you would still have trained 94 discipline and had all the benefits that 30 charisma has for the majority of that time for the former. I don't believe the one extra first tier khri is worth that difference.
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>...then on your way to capping Discipline from that point that you'd be better off training charisma along the way as well instead of just training discipline to the complete exclusion of charisma. The reason being since by the time you would have ended up with 99 disciple doing the latter you would still have trained 94 discipline and had all the benefits that 30 charisma has for the majority of that time for the former. I don't believe the one extra first tier khri is worth that difference
See the problem with this is every stat can not stay at 10. When I capped in 2.0 my wisdom and itel were both at 33. Strength was at 30. Agility and reflex both were at 23. Something would have to give and charisma is just it. Why should I invest into a stat to get a capped bonus that may or may not drift away from said cap. I chose to go for a static buff and wait for engame to focus on one that includes drift.
Also you are reading into that post as those are my stats. That was an example of what it would take to get a human toon up to 250 concentration. Please stop trying to justify why I CAN NOT AFFORD TO NOT TRAIN A STAT. It is my choice and it does not hold me back. I still get part of the bonus, just not capped.
See the problem with this is every stat can not stay at 10. When I capped in 2.0 my wisdom and itel were both at 33. Strength was at 30. Agility and reflex both were at 23. Something would have to give and charisma is just it. Why should I invest into a stat to get a capped bonus that may or may not drift away from said cap. I chose to go for a static buff and wait for engame to focus on one that includes drift.
Also you are reading into that post as those are my stats. That was an example of what it would take to get a human toon up to 250 concentration. Please stop trying to justify why I CAN NOT AFFORD TO NOT TRAIN A STAT. It is my choice and it does not hold me back. I still get part of the bonus, just not capped.
<< Why should I invest into a stat to get a capped bonus that may or may not drift away from said cap. I chose to go for a static buff and wait for engame to focus on one that includes drift.
You're not always getting that extra buff during the course of raising concentration depending on where the maximum concentration lines up at the time. All you're getting is that extra concentration regen slightly earlier than you would have otherwise. Most of the time you would have had the same regeneration as if you had trained charisma to 30 alongside training discipline. Heck, even training it to 15 or 20 and stopping there would have been a fairly significant increase to your abilities at negligible cost to your discipline/concentration training. 180 tdps spent on charisma to get it to 15 from 10 ranks is 1 point of discipline at 60 ranks, for example, netting you a grand total of 3 concentration.
I would recommend to someone to focus train concentration stats until the next multiple of 50, then train charisma until the next multiple of 5, and then repeat. Other stats should be trained as needed as well, obviously. This is just what I would recommend as the priority between charisma and concentration stats.
<<Also you are reading into that post as those are my stats.
I'm not.
<<That was an example of what it would take to get a human toon up to 250 concentration.
I'm well aware of this. I do, however, know that your stats are 10 charisma and enough discipline/intelligence/stamina to get 500 max concentration. The other stats are irrelevant when comparing the differences resulting from spending TDPs on discipline vs. charisma. And thus, those stats are representative of the relationship that your charisma and concentration stats would have at a mid-way point along the road to your current stats.
<<It is my choice
Absolutely.
<<it does not hold me back.
It makes you less effective than you otherwise might be.
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You're not always getting that extra buff during the course of raising concentration depending on where the maximum concentration lines up at the time. All you're getting is that extra concentration regen slightly earlier than you would have otherwise. Most of the time you would have had the same regeneration as if you had trained charisma to 30 alongside training discipline. Heck, even training it to 15 or 20 and stopping there would have been a fairly significant increase to your abilities at negligible cost to your discipline/concentration training. 180 tdps spent on charisma to get it to 15 from 10 ranks is 1 point of discipline at 60 ranks, for example, netting you a grand total of 3 concentration.
I would recommend to someone to focus train concentration stats until the next multiple of 50, then train charisma until the next multiple of 5, and then repeat. Other stats should be trained as needed as well, obviously. This is just what I would recommend as the priority between charisma and concentration stats.
<<Also you are reading into that post as those are my stats.
I'm not.
<<That was an example of what it would take to get a human toon up to 250 concentration.
I'm well aware of this. I do, however, know that your stats are 10 charisma and enough discipline/intelligence/stamina to get 500 max concentration. The other stats are irrelevant when comparing the differences resulting from spending TDPs on discipline vs. charisma. And thus, those stats are representative of the relationship that your charisma and concentration stats would have at a mid-way point along the road to your current stats.
<<It is my choice
Absolutely.
<<it does not hold me back.
It makes you less effective than you otherwise might be.
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>You're not always getting that extra buff during the course of raising concentration depending on where the maximum concentration lines up at the time
I did not raise stats based on the way concentration is today. At the time (2.0) it was a consideration only to the point of being able to run speed and spar at the same time in combat. This was 426 if my memory is correct. And yes even though concentration regen now requires another 50 concentration to move forward, most every point put into discipline can be felt by the player. Both in terms of moving towards the next 50 concentration and in thier effectiveness overall. Of course someone who has trained thier stats to be even will have little to no way of being able to tell exactly what stat is contributing to what.
>It makes you less effective than you otherwise might be.
If you want to believe that charisma + thief confidence is more important than discipline then go right ahead with that belief. I for one found that the countless ways discipline helps with many different systems far outweighs the less than a handful of skills confidence boosts + the feel of worthlessness that charisma has when compared to any other stat.
I did not raise stats based on the way concentration is today. At the time (2.0) it was a consideration only to the point of being able to run speed and spar at the same time in combat. This was 426 if my memory is correct. And yes even though concentration regen now requires another 50 concentration to move forward, most every point put into discipline can be felt by the player. Both in terms of moving towards the next 50 concentration and in thier effectiveness overall. Of course someone who has trained thier stats to be even will have little to no way of being able to tell exactly what stat is contributing to what.
>It makes you less effective than you otherwise might be.
If you want to believe that charisma + thief confidence is more important than discipline then go right ahead with that belief. I for one found that the countless ways discipline helps with many different systems far outweighs the less than a handful of skills confidence boosts + the feel of worthlessness that charisma has when compared to any other stat.
I'm not saying that point for point charisma is equal to discipline. I'm saying that when someone has reached the point where the cost for one point of discipline is more than the cost of training five or more charisma then it becomes worthwhile to spend those points on charisma because the benefits of those five plus points outweigh the benefits of that one point. I also agree the discipline is king for thieves. There's no question there. One single point of discipline, however, in no way equals the benefit of reaching the next tier of thief bonus.
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R> khri check
You are under the influence of the Prowess meditation, which should last around 5 roisaen.
You are under the influence of the Elusion meditation, which should last around 23 roisaen.
You are under the influence of the Focus meditation, which should last around 8 roisaen.
You are under the influence of the Avoidance meditation, which should last around 2 roisaen.
You are under the influence of the Sagacity meditation, which should last around 5 roisaen.
focus
R>
Concentration: 425 Max: 500
This is what I use when hunting and it is sustainable. Charisma contributes nothing to this. As far as thief confidence we are looking at a bonus to what? Stealth, backstab and thievery. Are there any more effects than this from confidence? With 10 charisma I do get a bonus to these through confidence even though it is rather minor and I have never invested a single TDP into this.
You smirk to yourself, (+2) = (8/11) feeling rather confident about things.
Your surroundings fit your talents perfectly.
From discipline alone the list of pros actually gets rather robust. I can loose a leg, not fall and not be stunned, lets see confidence trump this. That alone is worth more to me than putting a single TDP into charisma. I don't need a stealth bonus from confidence, discipline does it too and IMO does it better. I can use khri if I need to and I already have "the hiding stat" working to my advantage. Confidence does contribute to stealth but nowhere near what discipline alone can do. Discipline also factors into tons of different combat systems while confidence gets to play in combat with a few specific skills.
I understand you don't see the value in training discipline to higher levels at the expense of charisma but claiming that it is wrong in not correct either. It has been hashed out in the past and the same conclusions get made time and time again. Thieves that train discipline as a higher priority to any other stat never regret it, while those who are not willing to attempt it claim it is not effective.
You are under the influence of the Prowess meditation, which should last around 5 roisaen.
You are under the influence of the Elusion meditation, which should last around 23 roisaen.
You are under the influence of the Focus meditation, which should last around 8 roisaen.
You are under the influence of the Avoidance meditation, which should last around 2 roisaen.
You are under the influence of the Sagacity meditation, which should last around 5 roisaen.
focus
R>
Concentration: 425 Max: 500
This is what I use when hunting and it is sustainable. Charisma contributes nothing to this. As far as thief confidence we are looking at a bonus to what? Stealth, backstab and thievery. Are there any more effects than this from confidence? With 10 charisma I do get a bonus to these through confidence even though it is rather minor and I have never invested a single TDP into this.
You smirk to yourself, (+2) = (8/11) feeling rather confident about things.
Your surroundings fit your talents perfectly.
From discipline alone the list of pros actually gets rather robust. I can loose a leg, not fall and not be stunned, lets see confidence trump this. That alone is worth more to me than putting a single TDP into charisma. I don't need a stealth bonus from confidence, discipline does it too and IMO does it better. I can use khri if I need to and I already have "the hiding stat" working to my advantage. Confidence does contribute to stealth but nowhere near what discipline alone can do. Discipline also factors into tons of different combat systems while confidence gets to play in combat with a few specific skills.
I understand you don't see the value in training discipline to higher levels at the expense of charisma but claiming that it is wrong in not correct either. It has been hashed out in the past and the same conclusions get made time and time again. Thieves that train discipline as a higher priority to any other stat never regret it, while those who are not willing to attempt it claim it is not effective.
FYI: tone is hard to convey. Read this as more inquisitive than accusatory.
> From discipline alone the list of pros actually gets rather robust. I can loose a leg, not fall and not be stunned, lets see confidence trump this.
Why wouldn't you put in more reflex/agility and not lose the leg in the first place?
> I don't need a stealth bonus from confidence, discipline does it too and IMO does it better.
> Confidence does contribute to stealth but nowhere near what discipline alone can do.
Pardon my ignorance, but is discipline or confidence a % buff, or are they both static?
> Discipline also factors into tons of different combat systems while confidence gets to play in combat with a few specific skills.
I always though that it was minor. Early tests I did in the crazy days of multiple stat respecs showed that 99 points of disc had a very small effect on (single digit differences at a full drain of a 0 rank skill). Intel/Wis on the other hand were much more visible. I had always assumed it was the same with other bonuses. Disc affects a ton of things, slightly; however, you'd want to focus on other stats to do specific things much better. Is that not the case?
> Thieves that train discipline as a higher priority to any other stat never regret it, while those who are not willing to attempt it claim it is not effective.
Have you compared yourself with other thieves at similar levels in skill? I'd be interested in seeing a "gauntlet" style situation to test what's more effective when most other contributors are similar or equal.
> From discipline alone the list of pros actually gets rather robust. I can loose a leg, not fall and not be stunned, lets see confidence trump this.
Why wouldn't you put in more reflex/agility and not lose the leg in the first place?
> I don't need a stealth bonus from confidence, discipline does it too and IMO does it better.
> Confidence does contribute to stealth but nowhere near what discipline alone can do.
Pardon my ignorance, but is discipline or confidence a % buff, or are they both static?
> Discipline also factors into tons of different combat systems while confidence gets to play in combat with a few specific skills.
I always though that it was minor. Early tests I did in the crazy days of multiple stat respecs showed that 99 points of disc had a very small effect on (single digit differences at a full drain of a 0 rank skill). Intel/Wis on the other hand were much more visible. I had always assumed it was the same with other bonuses. Disc affects a ton of things, slightly; however, you'd want to focus on other stats to do specific things much better. Is that not the case?
> Thieves that train discipline as a higher priority to any other stat never regret it, while those who are not willing to attempt it claim it is not effective.
Have you compared yourself with other thieves at similar levels in skill? I'd be interested in seeing a "gauntlet" style situation to test what's more effective when most other contributors are similar or equal.
>>Have you compared yourself with other thieves at similar levels in skill? I'd be interested in seeing a "gauntlet" style situation to test what's more effective when most other contributors are similar or equal.
Elec gave his comparison as a more traditionally trained character to him earlier in the thread.
I will add that he is running a very similar Khri combination to my 160+ Thief, though probably not at the same strength since I'd guess my magics are higher. Being able to run 5-6 Khri without draining your concentration makes PvE a breeze for a Thief, and is impressive for one at 115th circle IMHO.
Elec gave his comparison as a more traditionally trained character to him earlier in the thread.
I will add that he is running a very similar Khri combination to my 160+ Thief, though probably not at the same strength since I'd guess my magics are higher. Being able to run 5-6 Khri without draining your concentration makes PvE a breeze for a Thief, and is impressive for one at 115th circle IMHO.
We can't even welcome back an old Thief without a conversation decaying into mess.
Seriously folks. The math and numbers are freely available on the wiki.
Build your character the way you want to build your character. Have fun playing your character.
Don't worry so much about what everyone else is doing as long as you're having fun.
That's that it's all about.
/salute
-Ssra
Seriously folks. The math and numbers are freely available on the wiki.
Build your character the way you want to build your character. Have fun playing your character.
Don't worry so much about what everyone else is doing as long as you're having fun.
That's that it's all about.
/salute
-Ssra
> Seriously folks. The math and numbers are freely available on the wiki.
I took a look on the wiki, and I must be missing a few of the numbers. For example, how much does reflex/agility/discipline buff defenses per point. Percentage, flat increase?
If they're not there, or if you want to throw some out then I'll be glad to add them :)
>Why wouldn't you put in more reflex/agility and not lose the leg in the first place?
Discipline is not a replacement for reflex/agility. Playing towards some of the strengths of the thieves guild though, currently I can buff agil/reflex and add a physical damage barrier while using prowess for a general offensive defuff in PvE. Also thieves require stealth so lighter armors are preferred which in turn are typically less effective with regards to protection. Going for less hindering armor lowers the dependancey on reflex.
Discipline does play a roll in to hit. Agility is only for to hit in combat. It does play a part in "mechanical stuff" like boxes. However one should note that discipline plays a part in boxes too. I was able to carve GMs at 220ish ranks with only 23 agility for example. Reflex gets penalized by hindrance.
>Pardon my ignorance, but is discipline or confidence a % buff, or are they both static?
discipline being a stat is a multiplyer. Khri bonus are gated based off magic ranks. Some are stat bonuses (static depending on SOI) some skill bonuses (theses are more percentage bonuses). One is a damage barrier and some have special effects. Confidence comes in stages and if memory serves right is capped lower than an inside SOI percentage buff. It is meant to come into it's own combined with in town bonus. Capped confidence combined with in town bonus is the point where it is about as equal to the power of a khri. Just keep in mind it only applies to thiefly things.
>I always though that it was minor. Early tests I did in the crazy days of multiple stat respecs showed that 99 points of disc had a very small effect on (single digit differences at a full drain of a 0 rank skill). Intel/Wis on the other hand were much more visible
For learning rates yes discipline plays an extremely minor role.
>I had always assumed it was the same with other bonuses. Disc affects a ton of things, slightly; however, you'd want to focus on other stats to do specific things much better. Is that not the case?
Is 100 agility better than 20. Sure for to hit but if you can hit with 20 is the other 80 doing much for you? Reflex is a bit different but if you wear hindering armor and are hindering yourself by say 50% because of armor it makes you invest more into a stat that is again taking a penalty. Strength really does not get much help from discipline. Stamina gets a little boon from disciple but is not enough for most people to notice. Stamina is more important for taking a hit than discipline is by far. Mentals we touched on above.
Also keep in mind that only having 20 more discipline is not really enough to see much of these kinds of things. Having discipline at 100 with low physicals the roles discipline plays become more prominent. This is also another reason I do not recommend to anyone to really train stats this way. It requires a 100% commitment that most people would simply find too much like work and not enough fun.
>Have you compared yourself with other thieves at similar levels in skill?
Went into juvies with just over 500 defenses and 23 reflex was enough to say that it can work. I was not able to stay and did not expect to be able to. I needed to make sure I could afford to continue leaving reflex close to 23 or not. Everything was fine until I took a hit while webbed. Before this I actually avoided being webbed several times and if they did not have such an ability I could stay there. However I will need more shield and parry to survive when webbed. Also keep in mind that these observations are more from a PvE perspective. I have to use AT&T wireless internet so I deal with constant lag. Occasionally though I do get to PvP it just is not all that often.
>I'd be interested in seeing a "gauntlet" style situation to test what's more effective when most other contributors are similar or equal
My point is not that a discipline build is better or more effective or anything like that. It is more about thinking outside the box so that a young thief can get thier concentration to a minimum that provides them uses of thier abilities without holding them back too badly. I also do not expect people to use respec to create a discipline build thinking it is superior. It most certainly is NOT. It does however have some benefits that those who keep thier stats even would never really notice.
Discipline is not a replacement for reflex/agility. Playing towards some of the strengths of the thieves guild though, currently I can buff agil/reflex and add a physical damage barrier while using prowess for a general offensive defuff in PvE. Also thieves require stealth so lighter armors are preferred which in turn are typically less effective with regards to protection. Going for less hindering armor lowers the dependancey on reflex.
Discipline does play a roll in to hit. Agility is only for to hit in combat. It does play a part in "mechanical stuff" like boxes. However one should note that discipline plays a part in boxes too. I was able to carve GMs at 220ish ranks with only 23 agility for example. Reflex gets penalized by hindrance.
>Pardon my ignorance, but is discipline or confidence a % buff, or are they both static?
discipline being a stat is a multiplyer. Khri bonus are gated based off magic ranks. Some are stat bonuses (static depending on SOI) some skill bonuses (theses are more percentage bonuses). One is a damage barrier and some have special effects. Confidence comes in stages and if memory serves right is capped lower than an inside SOI percentage buff. It is meant to come into it's own combined with in town bonus. Capped confidence combined with in town bonus is the point where it is about as equal to the power of a khri. Just keep in mind it only applies to thiefly things.
>I always though that it was minor. Early tests I did in the crazy days of multiple stat respecs showed that 99 points of disc had a very small effect on (single digit differences at a full drain of a 0 rank skill). Intel/Wis on the other hand were much more visible
For learning rates yes discipline plays an extremely minor role.
>I had always assumed it was the same with other bonuses. Disc affects a ton of things, slightly; however, you'd want to focus on other stats to do specific things much better. Is that not the case?
Is 100 agility better than 20. Sure for to hit but if you can hit with 20 is the other 80 doing much for you? Reflex is a bit different but if you wear hindering armor and are hindering yourself by say 50% because of armor it makes you invest more into a stat that is again taking a penalty. Strength really does not get much help from discipline. Stamina gets a little boon from disciple but is not enough for most people to notice. Stamina is more important for taking a hit than discipline is by far. Mentals we touched on above.
Also keep in mind that only having 20 more discipline is not really enough to see much of these kinds of things. Having discipline at 100 with low physicals the roles discipline plays become more prominent. This is also another reason I do not recommend to anyone to really train stats this way. It requires a 100% commitment that most people would simply find too much like work and not enough fun.
>Have you compared yourself with other thieves at similar levels in skill?
Went into juvies with just over 500 defenses and 23 reflex was enough to say that it can work. I was not able to stay and did not expect to be able to. I needed to make sure I could afford to continue leaving reflex close to 23 or not. Everything was fine until I took a hit while webbed. Before this I actually avoided being webbed several times and if they did not have such an ability I could stay there. However I will need more shield and parry to survive when webbed. Also keep in mind that these observations are more from a PvE perspective. I have to use AT&T wireless internet so I deal with constant lag. Occasionally though I do get to PvP it just is not all that often.
>I'd be interested in seeing a "gauntlet" style situation to test what's more effective when most other contributors are similar or equal
My point is not that a discipline build is better or more effective or anything like that. It is more about thinking outside the box so that a young thief can get thier concentration to a minimum that provides them uses of thier abilities without holding them back too badly. I also do not expect people to use respec to create a discipline build thinking it is superior. It most certainly is NOT. It does however have some benefits that those who keep thier stats even would never really notice.
> Playing towards some of the strengths of the thieves guild though, currently I can buff agil/reflex and add a physical damage barrier while using prowess for a general offensive defuff in PvE.
Do you know if KHRI goes through the core magic*? If so, you're essentially limiting yourself to the bare minimum in regards to the stat buff since it's a 15%-20% bonus, depending on SOI*.
Put another way, if you keep your stat buffs up 24/7 then you get a "free" stat at 15 and every 5 thereafter for int/disc/agil. With the rest, you'd get a "free" point at 20 and every 7 thereafter for the rest.
Based on the crazy low stats offered in post #1834, you could raise agility to 12 and drop khri focus from your khri list. That would give you 2 free concentration per pulse. You could also do the same with avoidance and reduce the concentration hit by 3 more. With the reduced disc requirement, you could lower that and/or add Khri Plunder.
Lots of fun options, but none of them really benefit pushing disc at the cost of all else for any reason other than fun (Which is a great reason, but some people have fun with efficiency!)
> It requires a 100% commitment that most people would simply find too much like work and not enough fun.
> I also do not expect people to use respec to create a discipline build thinking it is superior. It most certainly is NOT. It does however have some benefits that those who keep thier stats even would never really notice.
True enough.
> Khri bonus are gated based off magic ranks.
How much magic is required to cap each tier? Is there a way to know?
*Magic buff info here: https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Magic_3.1
*SOI list is here: https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Spheres_of_influence
>Do you know if KHRI goes through the core magic
It is treated the same way yes.
>How much magic is required to cap each tier?
While exact numbers have never been released what was stated is that khri will cap fairly early in ranks and then benefit from additional ranks adding more to duration.
This being said duration also increases as ranks increase while still under cap.
>Is there a way to know?
Some things will be easier to see than others. Take for example focus you could test against origami calculators, or plunder you can test useing <focus> (the verb here) to keep track of concentration regen. Plunder being in SOI caps at 20 so if you are at say 240 concentration and able to cap you should be seeing the regen level of 300. 240 would be a regen level of 4. 300 would be a regen level of 6.
My personal belief would be around approx 200 ranks to cap an intro level ability for power. then that goes up for duration. These numbers have never been released or confirmed and the above statement is purely speculation.
Magic: 596 22% (34/34) +0.37
Augment: 557 59% (34/34) +0.36
I for sure cap plunder's stat boost with these ranks. Duration however I have no idea where that will cap at. Also keep in mind that plunder is a tier 3 difficulty khri.
>Based on the crazy low stats offered in post #1834
The stats in this post were intended purely to show the minimum a human thief could get to 250 concentration. which in turn happens to be around 50th circle. That example was intended to show how unreasonable it is to expect a 50th level thief to spec toward concentration. Mainly to show that some sort of tool (that is not a concentration hog) should be justified for lower levels.
It is treated the same way yes.
>How much magic is required to cap each tier?
While exact numbers have never been released what was stated is that khri will cap fairly early in ranks and then benefit from additional ranks adding more to duration.
This being said duration also increases as ranks increase while still under cap.
>Is there a way to know?
Some things will be easier to see than others. Take for example focus you could test against origami calculators, or plunder you can test useing <focus> (the verb here) to keep track of concentration regen. Plunder being in SOI caps at 20 so if you are at say 240 concentration and able to cap you should be seeing the regen level of 300. 240 would be a regen level of 4. 300 would be a regen level of 6.
My personal belief would be around approx 200 ranks to cap an intro level ability for power. then that goes up for duration. These numbers have never been released or confirmed and the above statement is purely speculation.
Magic: 596 22% (34/34) +0.37
Augment: 557 59% (34/34) +0.36
I for sure cap plunder's stat boost with these ranks. Duration however I have no idea where that will cap at. Also keep in mind that plunder is a tier 3 difficulty khri.
>Based on the crazy low stats offered in post #1834
The stats in this post were intended purely to show the minimum a human thief could get to 250 concentration. which in turn happens to be around 50th circle. That example was intended to show how unreasonable it is to expect a 50th level thief to spec toward concentration. Mainly to show that some sort of tool (that is not a concentration hog) should be justified for lower levels.
> The stats in this post were intended purely to show the minimum a human thief could get to 250 concentration. which in turn happens to be around 50th circle. That example was intended to show how unreasonable it is to expect a 50th level thief to spec toward concentration. Mainly to show that some sort of tool (that is not a concentration hog) should be justified for lower levels.
Sorry, one more. The concentration stat is based off raw stat points, right? So I can't use plunder to increase it temporarily and debuffs wouldn't decrease it, right?
>The concentration stat is based off raw stat points, right? So I can't use plunder to increase it temporarily and debuffs wouldn't decrease it, right?
No. Buffs to any stat that contributes to concentration will bonus your max concentration. And any debuff to any stat that contributes to concentration or an ability that reduces concentration directly will lower your effective concentration.
No. Buffs to any stat that contributes to concentration will bonus your max concentration. And any debuff to any stat that contributes to concentration or an ability that reduces concentration directly will lower your effective concentration.
<<Sorry, one more. The concentration stat is based off raw stat points, right? So I can't use plunder to increase it temporarily and debuffs wouldn't decrease it, right?
You can tell your concentration is increased using INFO when your concentration pool shows full. You'll see a plus sign after the current concentration stat even though the displayed max concentration stat never changes. (E.g.: Concentration : 330 + Max : 330) You can also tell when less than full concentration because if you take the percentage on your bar and calculate the max from your current it will be higher. E.g. I was at 80% with "Concentration : 296 Max : 330 so my actual max was 296/0.8=370 which means I had a boost of 40 concentration. Since the boost is from an equal buff to Int/Dis that means my stats were each boosted by 9 points. (9*4.5=40.5 rounded down.)
With being debuffed the displayed current value is capped at the debuffed amount and the max displayed doesn't change. Your percentage will still show 100% at the debuffed cap. E.g. someone debuffed me 4 points of discipline and it showed Concentration : 318 Max : 330 when I was at 100% concentration.
Concentration regen is also affected by buffs to concentration stats (and presumably debuffs, although I didn't test that). Without the buff to concentration via Int/Dis my regen is 6 per pulse (330*0.02=6.6 rounded down) but with the buff the regen is 7 (370*0.02=7.4 rounded down).
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You can tell your concentration is increased using INFO when your concentration pool shows full. You'll see a plus sign after the current concentration stat even though the displayed max concentration stat never changes. (E.g.: Concentration : 330 + Max : 330) You can also tell when less than full concentration because if you take the percentage on your bar and calculate the max from your current it will be higher. E.g. I was at 80% with "Concentration : 296 Max : 330 so my actual max was 296/0.8=370 which means I had a boost of 40 concentration. Since the boost is from an equal buff to Int/Dis that means my stats were each boosted by 9 points. (9*4.5=40.5 rounded down.)
With being debuffed the displayed current value is capped at the debuffed amount and the max displayed doesn't change. Your percentage will still show 100% at the debuffed cap. E.g. someone debuffed me 4 points of discipline and it showed Concentration : 318 Max : 330 when I was at 100% concentration.
Concentration regen is also affected by buffs to concentration stats (and presumably debuffs, although I didn't test that). Without the buff to concentration via Int/Dis my regen is 6 per pulse (330*0.02=6.6 rounded down) but with the buff the regen is 7 (370*0.02=7.4 rounded down).
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Oh, and apparently the FOCUS command displays the actual buffed and current concentration value unlike with INFO which only displays the base max and the current up to that base max. I.e. use FOCUS rather than INFO to see better information. Learn something new every day.
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Ssra's Post..... AWESOME.
Dusk welcome back my friend, When i saw you back in IG Cadderrly had to go give you a hug and say it was great to see you. It is great to see old friends coming back. As a player I have never been a big numbers guy. You could know all the numbers in the world today, but 10 years later, you remember the friendships and the awesome RP that forged them, but not the first number. WELCOME BACK DUSK.
The feeble old swamp shaman.... and his player
Fer the love of Damaris, what have I done???
I was just hoping to hear some basic Khri to have in my repitoire to be a normal hunting 50+ Rogue...
so far I know Focus and that's it as im too scrared my knowledge of khri is obsolete and I will not pick one needed for later or pick one I don't need cus a later one does the same thing only better etc.
Also, it hasent been confirmed to me yet or I missed the answer, do 4 legs still teach defence better than 2 legs?
Thanks in advance.
PS Cadderrly, you rock buddy :)
"You can have anything the world offers, so long as you have the strength to take it, the skill to steal it or the nerve to kill for it."
Dusk, Chosen of Damaris
I was just hoping to hear some basic Khri to have in my repitoire to be a normal hunting 50+ Rogue...
so far I know Focus and that's it as im too scrared my knowledge of khri is obsolete and I will not pick one needed for later or pick one I don't need cus a later one does the same thing only better etc.
Also, it hasent been confirmed to me yet or I missed the answer, do 4 legs still teach defence better than 2 legs?
Thanks in advance.
PS Cadderrly, you rock buddy :)
"You can have anything the world offers, so long as you have the strength to take it, the skill to steal it or the nerve to kill for it."
Dusk, Chosen of Damaris
My path for khri at around 50th: darken, hasten, focus, safe, sight, dampen, avoidance, strike, silence, flight, plunder. I went for secure first because I was opening so many boxes, and it makes that process faster/safer. Dampen was for utility training. Avoidance and strike for combat--that's all I used for a long time. Silence because I wanted invis. Flight because I needed it to train athletics where I was living. Plunder because +discipline, and also to complete the speed combo, just for fun. The next thing I did was go after shadowstep for the skulk combo. Building towards combos is a good way to go.
Advice I've been given in the past is pick the combo you want and build to it.
You'll need to get hasten, focus, and darken regardless. They're the tier 1 for their respective trees. After that, if you want to be a minimalist, pick up a single tier 2 of aug/uti for training.
Then figure out what your thief wants to do, and pick up khri to do that. For now, I'd probably skip the debilitation khri. They're useful, but they all take a big concentration bite, and you can learn better by using ambush (which also teaches backstab). Safe, flight, and plunder are all good choices. Khri spar isn't 'mandatory' like it used to be. Khri strike is a great choice if you end up in melee a lot. Steady is good if you use bows and crossbows (I personally like sling and thrown, which it doesn't benefit). I never got a lot of use out of sight or silence, but that's just me.
Remember that you can forget one khri once per 30 days. So even if you fill up and end up hating your choices (and really, we don't have enough slots for that to happen), you can change it around pretty quick.
You'll need to get hasten, focus, and darken regardless. They're the tier 1 for their respective trees. After that, if you want to be a minimalist, pick up a single tier 2 of aug/uti for training.
Then figure out what your thief wants to do, and pick up khri to do that. For now, I'd probably skip the debilitation khri. They're useful, but they all take a big concentration bite, and you can learn better by using ambush (which also teaches backstab). Safe, flight, and plunder are all good choices. Khri spar isn't 'mandatory' like it used to be. Khri strike is a great choice if you end up in melee a lot. Steady is good if you use bows and crossbows (I personally like sling and thrown, which it doesn't benefit). I never got a lot of use out of sight or silence, but that's just me.
Remember that you can forget one khri once per 30 days. So even if you fill up and end up hating your choices (and really, we don't have enough slots for that to happen), you can change it around pretty quick.
>> Khri spar isn't 'mandatory' like it used to be. Khri strike is a great choice if you end up in melee a lot. Steady is good if you use bows and crossbows (I personally like sling and thrown, which it doesn't benefit).
Khri Spar does buff thrown weapons, but it is a taxing combo to run just to buff those. Luckily, thrown weapons don't really need it sub 200 ranks, and it's doable up to around 400-500 ranks without buffs. Once you get past that point you will need Khri Spar to train thrown weapons unless you invest in a rare-metal, bonded weapon that you can hurl over and over.
Khri Spar does buff thrown weapons, but it is a taxing combo to run just to buff those. Luckily, thrown weapons don't really need it sub 200 ranks, and it's doable up to around 400-500 ranks without buffs. Once you get past that point you will need Khri Spar to train thrown weapons unless you invest in a rare-metal, bonded weapon that you can hurl over and over.
My only really grouse about prowess is the duration and cost. I like the effect, and if you're fine with restarting a khri every minute or three, then it's good. The flip is that ambushes teach better and you could probably use prowess concentration cost to run another khri with longer boosts.
But it probably doesn't matter in the long run, I suspect the math makes it an even wash. I just got tired of restarting it so often.
But it probably doesn't matter in the long run, I suspect the math makes it an even wash. I just got tired of restarting it so often.
> My only really grouse about prowess is the duration and cost. I like the effect, and if you're fine with restarting a khri every minute or three, then it's good. The flip is that ambushes teach better and you could probably use prowess concentration cost to run another khri with longer boosts.
I understand that, and I agree with everything that you said.
My main push for prowess is that it helps you bridge gaps really, really well. The difference in prowess is barely handling one mob a tier higher vs handling 4 moderately well.
> I just got tired of restarting it so often.
I get it. I probably would too for anything I'm farming.
On the subject of the spar combo, khri guile will have sort of similar ultimate effects on your training--that is to say, I run guile if I face something I can't hit regularly with thrown weapons. Debilitate their evasion, hit more often. It is tier 3, but it's a good thing to pick up for that reason, eventually.
I almost never use prowess. The OF penalty is only PVE, and if I'm struggling in a hunting area even with sagacity/elusion/avoidance, I probably just shouldn't be there. Of course, that's not the only thing prowess does, so it might well be more useful for someone else. Plus, admittedly, running those three defensive khri together takes a good bit of concentration!
I almost never use prowess. The OF penalty is only PVE, and if I'm struggling in a hunting area even with sagacity/elusion/avoidance, I probably just shouldn't be there. Of course, that's not the only thing prowess does, so it might well be more useful for someone else. Plus, admittedly, running those three defensive khri together takes a good bit of concentration!
SO... one mo gain, I'll give my personal combo for training thief magic. It worked from the crap grandfathering ranks to close to 500 in magics.
I used hasten focus and avoidance until I could add strike. I used stun/clout for debil. Whichever worked better for the weapon I was using.
I used the same thing for ranged except I would put up steady instead of strike eventually.
I use spar/prowess for thrown currently, it's the only time I add prowess. Until then I used spar alone.
I train at melee, and use ambush for BS. I don't stab hunt, so this may not work for you. I believe in being rounded, which may be why my defenses are as high as many of my weapons. I don't use khri as a crutch, I use them as a means to an end. I support a discipline heavy build while maintaining balance in stats. And I believe that I should be able to fight using my raw ranks/confidence rather than rely on the khri. It's worked pretty well for me.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
I used hasten focus and avoidance until I could add strike. I used stun/clout for debil. Whichever worked better for the weapon I was using.
I used the same thing for ranged except I would put up steady instead of strike eventually.
I use spar/prowess for thrown currently, it's the only time I add prowess. Until then I used spar alone.
I train at melee, and use ambush for BS. I don't stab hunt, so this may not work for you. I believe in being rounded, which may be why my defenses are as high as many of my weapons. I don't use khri as a crutch, I use them as a means to an end. I support a discipline heavy build while maintaining balance in stats. And I believe that I should be able to fight using my raw ranks/confidence rather than rely on the khri. It's worked pretty well for me.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
