Hi all! Leyena here and here is my side of the story. I and another trader were approached in the market tent by someone asking if we would accept a certificate. I informed the person that certificates generally can only be used at the tables of the trader named on the certificate and asked them to read it and see who issued it. They said it was a "Market Associate Bill of Exchange" worth 138921 kronar, I asked to see the certificate at which time they handed it to me and I read it, noticing then it could only be turned in to the monger by a trader for the amount of coin listed. Now I am honestly not sure what a Market Associate Bill of Exchange is but after turning it in I did ask if they thought I was entitled to any type of tip for turning it in for them. I was informed he could not tip me because he and his friend had "gone to alot of trouble" to get it. It was then I started thinking about it and worried I had somehow gotten involved in something illegal or shady, which anyone that knows me knows I don't want to be a part of, so I asked how they as a non trader acquired a certificate that only a trader could turn in to the monger. At first he said he could not answer that, then after I said that I would hold the coin until he could he said he and a friend had dragged "a trader" <no mention of a friend> from a dangerous hunting area. I was quite suspicious by this time, then a person who's reputation as well as profession shows up in the tent and immediately hides <I didn't see him hide but looked right after he arrived and he was no longer in the room> so I run quickly to the bank to avoid having the persons coin stolen from me. While at the bank the "hider" shows up and demands I turn over the coin. I explained the situation and told them both I neither need or want their coin but that I didn't want to be involved with anything illegal or shady, again asking how the certificate was acquired and again not given an answer. The "hider" then assisted and a GH showed up <I had to leave the GH's group when they left the bank to go somewhere more quiet and run back to the bank to deposit the 138921 kronar I was still carrying from turning in the certificate>. We both explained what was going on, the GH also was unsure of what a Market Associate Bill of Exchange is and said it was a RP situation and to resolve it as such. I told the "hider" I would talk to some higher ups in my guild and find out exactly what the certificate was and get back to him at which point he said he would ruin me and my reputation as a trader for trying to "scam" him and his friend out of their coin. At this point it was very late and I was very tired so I left and went to bed.
Forward to the next day, Leyena gweths looking to speak with the "hider" as he said it was his certificate to begin with and not getting a response from him. He shows up the next day and asks what I wanted, I told him again I don't need or want the coin and would turn it over but only to the person who handed me the certificate. He informed me it was his certificate and the person he gave it to to cash for him was on Aesry, I again said I would not give the coin to anyone but the person who handed me the certificate at which he said he would get in touch with them and get them to come back. That was the last I talked to any of them, their coin is still safely in my bank account waiting for the person to pick up. I was informed today of the damaging post here on the boards and felt I had to respond with my side of things. As a trader my reputation is gold and I just wanted my side of things out there too.

Leyena

I just thought it came off as odd that she didn't think something shady might be going on until after she found out she wasn't getting a tip. Sounded more to me like she was going to hold the coin hostage until they agreed to a tip.

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An optimist believes that we live in the best of all possible worlds. A pessimist fears that this is true.

I wonder why the trader's name who issued it is so secret? Anyone recently issue a 14 plat certificate?

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http://www.drtraders.net/gallery

In light of the other side of the story, I still think that both sides could have conducted themselves differently:

1. The customer shouldn't have refused to tip

2. If the trader absolutely wanted a tip, they should have been up front and asked for a fee instead instead of demanding a tip after beginning the transaction, which is rude.

3. If the trader felt uncomfortable with the transaction, they are in their right not to complete it. However, all items should've been restored as they were before the transaction began. The potential confiscation of items was never intended to be an outcome when the trader was given the items in good faith by the customer.

4. If the trader felt that something shady was going on, she could have recorded the name of the customer, and tried to inform the right (victim?)parties of what happened, if any are known. If none are known, then the suspicions cannot be proven and the act of holding the customer accountable for mere unprovable suspicions would be unjust. Still though, the right to confiscate the items is reserved for the victim parties and/or GMs if applicable, not third parties like Leyena.

4. Finally, Had BARTER should have been used, This whole series of misunderstandings would've been avoided completely.

~Teloxius

I will again say I did not demand nor expect a tip, I asked the person who gave me the document if they felt I should keep something as a tip. I did not get so suspicious as to ask how they got the certificate until after I had already turned it in and they said they count not offer a tip as they and a freind "had gone to alot of trouble" to get it. This has nothing to do with the refusal to tip, it has everything to do with the fact they began acting suspicious and changing stories as things progressed and I felt I had involved myself in something illegal or shady. Again the coin, all of it, is still safely in my bank account waiting for pickup from the person who handed me the document and nobody else.

Leyena

<< does it really matter to you (the general you, not Leyena specifically) that the person got it through "honest" means?

If I was specifically aware that something shady was going on or had suspicions as such, I feel that it would be my moral obligation to not participate in the transaction. My business is in whether or not I choose to help the person. Anything beyond that is not my business.

Say I knew someone giving me a pouch was a thief with a trader title for example. I would not TAKE the pouch from them and sell it and keep the money for myself but I also wouldnt sell it for them under any circumstances. I would be suspicious that they might have stolen it from some innocent who thought they were a trader.

There is nothing wrong with making sure that you deal only with honest people.

~Teloxius

<<Do you really think that how they got it was any of your business? I mean do you question how people got a pouch of gems before selling that? Do you ask them about the coins they're about to spend at your table?

Leyena has a reputation of being an honest, happy, generous, kind, and helpful trader. She would indeed consider it her business to inquire how someone got something they offered to sell to her or give to her if she felt it was done illegally. This was not a gem pouch filled with gems anyone can get off critters or as tips, it was a document that stated clearly it could only be turned in to the monger by a trader for the amount of coin listed on it, which would indicate to me that it should only be in the hands of a trader to begin with. As stated in a previous post it was very late and I was very tired when this all occured, had I been more alert and awake I would have asked how they acquired the document before turning it in but I was trying to be the helpful trader I always am and only became suspicious after an innocent question about a tip was answered suspiciously and then the story changed and others getting involved. Again I will say I don't need or want to keep the coin, I have offered to give it to the person who handed me the document. I will point out it was after this offer was made to the "hider" that the original post of this thread was made.

Leyena

I am wondering how Leyena missed all the posts about secured certificates.

There are ONE type of market certificate. An unsecured one is one that trader just writes in an amount and signs. Multiple traders can sign it and then give their permission for it to be used to purchase items on their table with the agreement that one of the signatures on the cert will pay them later.

A secured certifact is not signed and is taken to the market monger with coin in hand. The trader then ASK MONGER FOR SECURE and it's secured,ie it's the same as say a same-as-cash bond that simply needs to be redeemed with the local monger. A very handy way to transfer money between provinces.

I've written dozens of secured certificates in varying amounts both secured and unsecured for tips, or payments to people who sold me something out in the field <emergency gweths!>. They are a bit of a pain to try and explain to someone, but the beauty of the system is that they are completely unstealable. Much easier in my opinion to keep on you than gems or coins.

I have to say it is very suspicious that Leyena only inquired into how this person <persons?> got a secured market certificate after she asked about a tip. Personally, I would have been delighted that a fellow trader had used this wonderful system and cashed it for free. When certificates and coupons first came out a group of us wrote a whole bunch of secured,and unsecured certificates, and coupons hoping to woo people into using them. Sadly, its never really caught on because of the trust issue and people's lack of understanding about them.


A ship's rat scurries into view.
The ship's rat tries to tend its wounds.

<<Maybe certain shadey types have discovered the ability to forge certificates. I doubt it, but it's still a thought.>>

nope, there woulda been a guild guru announcement if there had been somethin like that.





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A scavenger troll arrives, scouring the area.

The scavenger troll exclaims, "I dinks I like da' Moongate!"

The scavenger troll bends over and picks up the Moongate. After appraising it, the troll places the Moongate in its frayed knapsack