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And don't forget TDP because if they DIDN'T get magic, they'd be the ONLY guild that will not be getting TDP from getting ranks from using Magic skillset skills.
I also like the symmetry of 2 guilds for every magic type (including "Inner Magic") + 1 mixer. Even if I wish it'd be even more symmetrical with making Empaths Magic Prime.
>I'd have thought that being able to choose your own location for a store
If it's not Crossing, no one cares.
The Crossing plaza of 78 shops is essentially permanently full (minus a few that get booted every rent cycle, the empty spaces fill back up within a day or two) while Riverhaven's 27 are only about half rented and Shard's 21 are just about 1/4 rented.
You can't even get people to go elsewhere to FORGE because they might miss customers gwething for a crafter, despite being hampered by less than a minute due to a river in the way. And there's the regular calls to make Crossing's forge bigger, despite essentially unused forges in Leth, Dirge(ish), and Riverhaven.
>Better to play into what the guild's primary function is and make the trade/economy of Elanthia more interesting, isn't it?
I hope that's still the plan, it was supposed to be developed after 3.0 calmed down.
Kaeta Airtag
"I have faith in the current crop of GMs to not screw people over"
>>Actually an opinion cannot be changed or corrected. Nice try back of line.-VERATHOR
>>But it can be wrong.-Starlear
Wait, wait, wait ... Thieves use magic skills now, too? I knew about Barbs (pardon me, I've been absent for many a year, and am still learning my way around all the new stuff) and I kinda blanched a little at the thought of barbs training magic. Thieves, too, apparently, and now Traders. You probably can't tell through the text, but I'm making scrunchy faces right now. It's painful. I'm going to look up the thief thing now just to confirm/see it for myself.
I kinda get where it's coming from, of course. Balancing things out and what not. I just wish that the better solutions (fixing the in-game economy for Traders ... and everyone, really) didn't require fundamental changes to the game.
I kinda get where it's coming from, of course. Balancing things out and what not. I just wish that the better solutions (fixing the in-game economy for Traders ... and everyone, really) didn't require fundamental changes to the game.
It's not as bad as it sounds. Basically they've renamed the Magic skillset to Supernatural, and the non-magic guilds now (or will soon) need to use their own versions where appropriate.
I'll admit, as a barbarian it took me a while to get used to it, but once I did, I found I love it this way.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
I'll admit, as a barbarian it took me a while to get used to it, but once I did, I found I love it this way.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
I figure the strangeness in trader magic is two fold:
1) We've been told for a long time that traders/barbarians/thieves had no magic. Now that's changing. This takes time to absorb.
2) We don't exactly know how the lore will work here. Yes, some discussion and ideas have been presented, but until the system goes live, we're all just speculating and guessing. We have some great creative writers among the GMs.
Nikpack
1) We've been told for a long time that traders/barbarians/thieves had no magic. Now that's changing. This takes time to absorb.
2) We don't exactly know how the lore will work here. Yes, some discussion and ideas have been presented, but until the system goes live, we're all just speculating and guessing. We have some great creative writers among the GMs.
Nikpack
>>2) We don't exactly know how the lore will work here. Yes, some discussion and ideas have been presented, but until the system goes live, we're all just speculating and guessing. We have some great creative writers among the GMs.
Trader Magic won't be retconned in or dropped in without an IC rationale. The Traders are going to become magic users, they won't just have suddenly been magic users all along.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
Trader Magic won't be retconned in or dropped in without an IC rationale. The Traders are going to become magic users, they won't just have suddenly been magic users all along.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
I'm hoping it involves a magic leasing agreement where every moon mage gets a monthly stipend from the trader guild.
Vote:
http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
Vote:
http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
>>I'm hoping it involves a magic leasing agreement where every moon mage gets a monthly stipend from the trader guild.
Actually, if we're going to give magic to traders, some sort of magical contract system could be really awesome, though perhaps a bit difficult to code.
"If you do/do not do x, then y will happen."
As a trader, I cast a spell on someone, and they then have a time limit to perform some action and if they do not, they either do not get the bonus or else some penalty is applied. Does that make sense? Like old faerie contracts.
Actually, if we're going to give magic to traders, some sort of magical contract system could be really awesome, though perhaps a bit difficult to code.
"If you do/do not do x, then y will happen."
As a trader, I cast a spell on someone, and they then have a time limit to perform some action and if they do not, they either do not get the bonus or else some penalty is applied. Does that make sense? Like old faerie contracts.
Double post.
Stat exchanges could be a lot of fun.
If you give me your Agility, I will give you my knowledge of Outfitting (thus enabling you to make that rucksack you want so much.) You skill at magic would determine length of contract, and how many points are allowed to be exchanged. Just tossing the idea out there.
A quick Vitality contract could save some unfortunate soul from death.
And as for offensive magic, who says that the person has to be willing? "Sure, goblin, I'll give you my hiding in exchange for your vitality. Absolutely!"
Stat exchanges could cover Augmentation (and perhaps even debilitation, or even warding) pretty well.
But exchanges shouldn't be limited to stats. Targeted magic spells could include stuff such as "Flee or be struck down by the sun (variant of the Burn spell, sorry moonies, but lunar magic.)"
The primary difficulty here is that creature code almost certainly doesn't contain any ability to judge whether they'd rather flee or suffer the wrath of the spell. But for PvP it could certainly be interesting if done well.
Like you said, Raesh, the difficulty is in figuring out how to make contract-based lunar magic mechanically viable. I'd so love to see the magic actually suit the guild, but recognize the difficulty in doing so.
Stat exchanges could be a lot of fun.
If you give me your Agility, I will give you my knowledge of Outfitting (thus enabling you to make that rucksack you want so much.) You skill at magic would determine length of contract, and how many points are allowed to be exchanged. Just tossing the idea out there.
A quick Vitality contract could save some unfortunate soul from death.
And as for offensive magic, who says that the person has to be willing? "Sure, goblin, I'll give you my hiding in exchange for your vitality. Absolutely!"
Stat exchanges could cover Augmentation (and perhaps even debilitation, or even warding) pretty well.
But exchanges shouldn't be limited to stats. Targeted magic spells could include stuff such as "Flee or be struck down by the sun (variant of the Burn spell, sorry moonies, but lunar magic.)"
The primary difficulty here is that creature code almost certainly doesn't contain any ability to judge whether they'd rather flee or suffer the wrath of the spell. But for PvP it could certainly be interesting if done well.
Like you said, Raesh, the difficulty is in figuring out how to make contract-based lunar magic mechanically viable. I'd so love to see the magic actually suit the guild, but recognize the difficulty in doing so.
>who says that the person has to be willing?
That pretty much goes against the entirety of fantasy deals. I have never read or seen a story in which both sides didn't have to be willing.
Here's my major issues with it: it smacks of Faustian deals, and considering the recent history with demons, I'm not sure they'd ever reveal it, even if it were magically possible.
What you'd probably be more likely to see are magic contracts that bind both signers to it, though I doubt there's ever going to be a mechanical way of doing that.
Also, you'd probably have to limit it to only being able to offer or take what you had or they had more of, otherwise you'd just get alts being dumps for stuff you don't want. And if your stuff is higher, it's probably because you actually do it, which means you'll not want to give it up.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
That pretty much goes against the entirety of fantasy deals. I have never read or seen a story in which both sides didn't have to be willing.
Here's my major issues with it: it smacks of Faustian deals, and considering the recent history with demons, I'm not sure they'd ever reveal it, even if it were magically possible.
What you'd probably be more likely to see are magic contracts that bind both signers to it, though I doubt there's ever going to be a mechanical way of doing that.
Also, you'd probably have to limit it to only being able to offer or take what you had or they had more of, otherwise you'd just get alts being dumps for stuff you don't want. And if your stuff is higher, it's probably because you actually do it, which means you'll not want to give it up.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
>>That pretty much goes against the entirety of fantasy deals. I have never read or seen a story in which both sides didn't have to be willing.
It just sounds like a Tradery debilitation version of any kind of debuff with a bit of silliness thrown in.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
It just sounds like a Tradery debilitation version of any kind of debuff with a bit of silliness thrown in.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
Some more spells:
Enlarge container(Fabrication): Increases the size/dimensions/weight that a container can hold. If spell wears off and container has more in it that it can carry, it randomly spits out items to ground until below limit.
Meandering Path(Illusion): Basically makes the target believe that the fastest path to engage is not a straight line. Right now spell make it easier to retreat. When we have a different retreat/hangback system it would hep in hanging back.
Frenimies(Illusion and a horrible name but could not think of something better): Cast at an enemy and they appear to be one of your group. So mobs would have a chance to attack the spell victim and the victim might start attacking agressor instead of caster.
Abison/Rystien
Enlarge container(Fabrication): Increases the size/dimensions/weight that a container can hold. If spell wears off and container has more in it that it can carry, it randomly spits out items to ground until below limit.
Meandering Path(Illusion): Basically makes the target believe that the fastest path to engage is not a straight line. Right now spell make it easier to retreat. When we have a different retreat/hangback system it would hep in hanging back.
Frenimies(Illusion and a horrible name but could not think of something better): Cast at an enemy and they appear to be one of your group. So mobs would have a chance to attack the spell victim and the victim might start attacking agressor instead of caster.
Abison/Rystien
Lets see what some of the more corrupt Traders could do eh? lol
Trader Spells:
Sell Spirit
This spell simply trades a little spirit for vitality whenever vitality goes down- if it kills you through spirit death, however, you must wait for the spell duration to fade before you can be raised!
Sell Soul:
Cast upon a willing Fallen Paladin, this spell trades soul pool for Vitality/Attunement/Fatigue along with a huge hit to soul state.
I thought it would be interesting if Traders could get a spell or two that's in the 'Evil' catagory.
Trader Spells:
Sell Spirit
This spell simply trades a little spirit for vitality whenever vitality goes down- if it kills you through spirit death, however, you must wait for the spell duration to fade before you can be raised!
Sell Soul:
Cast upon a willing Fallen Paladin, this spell trades soul pool for Vitality/Attunement/Fatigue along with a huge hit to soul state.
I thought it would be interesting if Traders could get a spell or two that's in the 'Evil' catagory.
I'd also like to endorse the whole -willing- stat exchanges idea and perhaps the ability to temporarily 'rent memories' (skills) from some willing person for a time.
I really, really like the container idea and the (I'm trying to think of a name too) Frenemies spell. The Meandering Path seems incredibly cool- but a Ranger spell. :)
>>Lets see what some of the more corrupt Traders could do eh? lol
While I'm all for Lunar magic being morally ambiguous, bear in mind two things.
1) Lunar magic is Lunar magic. Both things you suggest are pretty firmly planted in the Holy realm.
2) Traders, ICly, have a profound reason to seek public approval and credibility. The Moon Mages can skate by with a certain level of presumed corruption, but if the Traders Guild loses public trust it collapses tomorrow.
This isn't to say the Traders can't skirt the dark side, but that they'd do so in very subtle or careful ways.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
While I'm all for Lunar magic being morally ambiguous, bear in mind two things.
1) Lunar magic is Lunar magic. Both things you suggest are pretty firmly planted in the Holy realm.
2) Traders, ICly, have a profound reason to seek public approval and credibility. The Moon Mages can skate by with a certain level of presumed corruption, but if the Traders Guild loses public trust it collapses tomorrow.
This isn't to say the Traders can't skirt the dark side, but that they'd do so in very subtle or careful ways.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
While all the trader spells are subject to change, there are some plans for spells that aren't exactly in the 'core curriculum', but otherwise what Armifer is saying completely consistant with our plans for Traders.
Lunar magic is lunar magic (and it's been a little tricky to have to finally define lunar magic vs Moon Mage magic), and spirit really isn't part of that. Likewise, Traders will not share some of the darker and more reckless features that certain Moon Mage spells demonstrate.
While it's far too early to talk about the lore (Also, spoilers), Trader magic is going to come from a different place than Moon Mage magic and as a result it will be grounded in somewhat differently in it's morals and aims.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
Lunar magic is lunar magic (and it's been a little tricky to have to finally define lunar magic vs Moon Mage magic), and spirit really isn't part of that. Likewise, Traders will not share some of the darker and more reckless features that certain Moon Mage spells demonstrate.
While it's far too early to talk about the lore (Also, spoilers), Trader magic is going to come from a different place than Moon Mage magic and as a result it will be grounded in somewhat differently in it's morals and aims.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
Interesting! Those are pretty holy in nature but for some reason with trader magic I keep imaging some poor sod sitting in the dark office of some corperate-style, mofia-type trader selling his soul to Urrem-Tier. Obviously not the right direction but for some reason I just can't shake the image. lol Its hard for me to imagine the inner working of big business caring much about morality compared to the public facade it puts forth. The Elanthian Trader Guild is far, far more respectable it seems!
I do like, in particular, the concept of trading abstract things, though.
>Out of curiosity, when Traders do get magic, will Necromancers be updated such that new necromancers can randomly get to prep spells like Traders?
Basic preps are mana-based, Traders will raise their arms and chant mnemonic formulae like the other lunar mages.
They'll just be chanting the equation of compound interest instead.
>Forgive my snark, but welcome to the life of a warrior mage.
Basic preps are mana-based, Traders will raise their arms and chant mnemonic formulae like the other lunar mages.
They'll just be chanting the equation of compound interest instead.
>Forgive my snark, but welcome to the life of a warrior mage.
>>Basic preps are mana-based, Traders will raise their arms and chant mnemonic formulae like the other lunar mages.
Hmm. I need to think about how I feel about this.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
Hmm. I need to think about how I feel about this.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
>>>> ROBERTDH: Basic preps are mana-based, Traders will raise their arms and chant mnemonic formulae like the other lunar mages.
>>>> DR-RAESH: Hmm. I need to think about how I feel about this.
Hmmm. Interesting problem, I hadn't considered that. The default life and holy preps work for all four guilds (although I am not a huge fan of about half of the life preps for anyone, but that is another issue) and obviously Warrior Mages and Moon Mages suit their realms default prep. Currently Bards are the only guild that has a default prep that doesn't quite fit them, in my opinion, an even then it isn't that bad. I had assumed traders would get shoe-horned into the Moon Mage prep based on this but I guess if it is really at odds with their spell casting philosophy you may need to do something.
>>>> DR-RAESH: Hmm. I need to think about how I feel about this.
Hmmm. Interesting problem, I hadn't considered that. The default life and holy preps work for all four guilds (although I am not a huge fan of about half of the life preps for anyone, but that is another issue) and obviously Warrior Mages and Moon Mages suit their realms default prep. Currently Bards are the only guild that has a default prep that doesn't quite fit them, in my opinion, an even then it isn't that bad. I had assumed traders would get shoe-horned into the Moon Mage prep based on this but I guess if it is really at odds with their spell casting philosophy you may need to do something.
At this time I'm inclined to say they'll stay the same, but as more and more of the Trader lore and systems get nailed down I reserve the right to back off that stance.
Do note that in the case of Bards their cyclic spells have unique prep messaging to make them feel more like songs where the elemental preps are used for the 'spells', so thematically I'm okay with that fit.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
Do note that in the case of Bards their cyclic spells have unique prep messaging to make them feel more like songs where the elemental preps are used for the 'spells', so thematically I'm okay with that fit.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
> I gathered that much from the yearly death toll, I want the gruesome details! ;p
Son, you ever seen what happens to a body when constructive resonance sends an amplified spike down an unreinforced mana channel? It ain't pretty, and it ain't the sort of thing I appreciate folks making light of.
Son, you ever seen what happens to a body when constructive resonance sends an amplified spike down an unreinforced mana channel? It ain't pretty, and it ain't the sort of thing I appreciate folks making light of.
We've got a lot of the planning done but haven't really broken ground on the actual coding yet.
I think the barrier review is the last major project we need to get done first so I expect us a number of us to move into heavy Trader Development once that project is well underway. I'm hesitant to give a real deadline with this much work still go to but I'd ballpark somewhere around the end of the year according to our current plans.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
I think the barrier review is the last major project we need to get done first so I expect us a number of us to move into heavy Trader Development once that project is well underway. I'm hesitant to give a real deadline with this much work still go to but I'd ballpark somewhere around the end of the year according to our current plans.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
<<We've got a lot of the planning done but haven't really broken ground on the actual coding yet.
<<I think the barrier review is the last major project we need to get done first so I expect us a number of us to move into heavy Trader Development once that project is well underway. I'm <<hesitant to give a real deadline with this much work still go to but I'd ballpark somewhere around the end of the year according to our current plans.
Just curious as to an update on this? It's been just about two years in a few days and my financial phalangies are flarin' for some frosty tm fun!
<<I think the barrier review is the last major project we need to get done first so I expect us a number of us to move into heavy Trader Development once that project is well underway. I'm <<hesitant to give a real deadline with this much work still go to but I'd ballpark somewhere around the end of the year according to our current plans.
Just curious as to an update on this? It's been just about two years in a few days and my financial phalangies are flarin' for some frosty tm fun!
<<I think the barrier review is the last major project we need to get done first so I expect us a number of us to move into heavy Trader Development once that project is well underway. I'm <<hesitant to give a real deadline with this much work still go to but I'd ballpark somewhere around the end of the year according to our current plans.
>>Just curious as to an update on this? It's been just about two years in a few days and my financial phalangies are flarin' for some frosty tm fun!
Well, the barrier review has been put on hold till some point after Magic 3.2 is released (still waiting on that to happen). It doesn't seem it's really any closer to happening now than it was 2 years ago.
>>Just curious as to an update on this? It's been just about two years in a few days and my financial phalangies are flarin' for some frosty tm fun!
Well, the barrier review has been put on hold till some point after Magic 3.2 is released (still waiting on that to happen). It doesn't seem it's really any closer to happening now than it was 2 years ago.
>Well, the barrier review has been put on hold till some point after Magic 3.2 is released (still waiting on that to happen). It doesn't seem it's really any closer to happening now than it was 2 years ago.
I really hope it's not another necromancer thing. waiting years upon years. That makes me sad!
Fact 1) Trader Magic is a large project.
Fact 2) DR Staff is a small team right now.
Fact 3) Only a smaller subset of that staff are Dev GMs.
Fact 4) Of those I'd say roughly three of us have enough experience with the magic system to implement Trader magic (With a few others who are familiar enough with magic to write spells for it).
Fact 5) Of those three - all of us have quite a few other demands on our time (Both DR related and not).
Fact 6) We still really want to do Trader Magic and we have (subtly) been building the framework to support it. Some of that will even be released with Magic 3.2 - but that's foundational stuff that you're likely to never notice. (For example, the Trader spellbooks now technically exist. There isn't anything in them and Traders can't interact with them but I can, in theory, write a spell for Traders that a Moon Mage could then learn from a scroll.)
Which is a long winded way of saying "It's still on our road map and on the short list of large projects we want to tackle but trying to resource it has proven very difficult."
-Raesh
"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things
Fact 2) DR Staff is a small team right now.
Fact 3) Only a smaller subset of that staff are Dev GMs.
Fact 4) Of those I'd say roughly three of us have enough experience with the magic system to implement Trader magic (With a few others who are familiar enough with magic to write spells for it).
Fact 5) Of those three - all of us have quite a few other demands on our time (Both DR related and not).
Fact 6) We still really want to do Trader Magic and we have (subtly) been building the framework to support it. Some of that will even be released with Magic 3.2 - but that's foundational stuff that you're likely to never notice. (For example, the Trader spellbooks now technically exist. There isn't anything in them and Traders can't interact with them but I can, in theory, write a spell for Traders that a Moon Mage could then learn from a scroll.)
Which is a long winded way of saying "It's still on our road map and on the short list of large projects we want to tackle but trying to resource it has proven very difficult."
-Raesh
"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things
>>How close is magic 3.2
Close. I need to finish up two smallish projects but otherwise we're just in the QC loop.
>>would you be willing to release a few spells out on scrolls for rogue traders before the big "acceptance" by the guild
This is impractical for a number of mechanical reasons.
>>or does that run contrary to the story you've designed?
It might also do this.
-Raesh
"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things
Close. I need to finish up two smallish projects but otherwise we're just in the QC loop.
>>would you be willing to release a few spells out on scrolls for rogue traders before the big "acceptance" by the guild
This is impractical for a number of mechanical reasons.
>>or does that run contrary to the story you've designed?
It might also do this.
-Raesh
"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things
Thanks for the update, Raesh. Is there any way traders can at least start perceiving power? I understand we can take classes but it would be nice to be able to prepare in advance if we (i) can while out with our caravans. Or would it be reasonable to consider the possibility of having magic skills grandfathered when the magic system does come out?
