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I love playing a Warrior Mage and in general I like TM.
However, TM loses major usefulness in situations where attacking quickly is critical.
In invasions, a creature a warrior mage wants to attack with a target spell is almost always dead before he can get a full target on it if there are other fighters in the room. Often it is dead before he can even start targeting.
In PvP, taking time to target generally ensures that the target has time to do one of the following:
1) Ninja vanish.
2) Walk out of the room.
Either of those renders the TM spell ineffective.
The heinous accuracy penalty that comes from casting without targeting (or with minimal targeting) means that is not a viable strategy in most situations.
As masters of targeted magic, Warrior Mages should have the ability to accurately quick draw with TM.
Call it Pathway Quickdraw. QD would specifically negate the accuracy penalty from casting without targeting, potentially allowing the mage to use up to his base ranks on such an attempt.
Accuracy would be the Pathway to use for greatest absolute power when you had time to target. Quickness would be the go-to pathway for getting to maximum potential quickly. But when you needed to shoot from the hip, you'd reach for QD for maximum penalty negation.
QD fits the Warrior Mage concept and it would be the perfect niche ability. You wouldn't use it all the time, it wouldn't increase your absolute power, but you WOULD pull it out and be glad to have it under reasonably common circumstances.
How 'bout it?
However, TM loses major usefulness in situations where attacking quickly is critical.
In invasions, a creature a warrior mage wants to attack with a target spell is almost always dead before he can get a full target on it if there are other fighters in the room. Often it is dead before he can even start targeting.
In PvP, taking time to target generally ensures that the target has time to do one of the following:
1) Ninja vanish.
2) Walk out of the room.
Either of those renders the TM spell ineffective.
The heinous accuracy penalty that comes from casting without targeting (or with minimal targeting) means that is not a viable strategy in most situations.
As masters of targeted magic, Warrior Mages should have the ability to accurately quick draw with TM.
Call it Pathway Quickdraw. QD would specifically negate the accuracy penalty from casting without targeting, potentially allowing the mage to use up to his base ranks on such an attempt.
Accuracy would be the Pathway to use for greatest absolute power when you had time to target. Quickness would be the go-to pathway for getting to maximum potential quickly. But when you needed to shoot from the hip, you'd reach for QD for maximum penalty negation.
QD fits the Warrior Mage concept and it would be the perfect niche ability. You wouldn't use it all the time, it wouldn't increase your absolute power, but you WOULD pull it out and be glad to have it under reasonably common circumstances.
How 'bout it?
I am completely in line with like the Quickdraw pathway it fits well with many warrior mage styles of fighting the main one being snap-casting. But don't like the complete removal of the penalty though, it of the old west even the best gun fighters who could quickdraw weren't as accurate as if they took the time to aim.
>>I think quickdraw would be great, but I think that such a powerful ability would need to be countered by a rather large ER drain, similar in magnitude to barrage. This would allow us the element of surprise in a situation that we are expected to have one of the slower abilities.<<
I was thinking about something like that. I think QD would be very easy to walk around with and keep activated, but have a high cost whenever it aided a spell.
I was thinking about something like that. I think QD would be very easy to walk around with and keep activated, but have a high cost whenever it aided a spell.
<<...but I agree, you should just be able to target them directly. The problem is Ssra has too many projects to really finish any of them properly. He needs like 10 assistants to do his bidding.>>
The code that handles targeting causes me to have seizures. It's pretty scary.
When Dart, Armifer, and I went through the cast mechanics to add this mod we cleaned them up significantly and by that time I'm not sure we had the energy to deal with targeting. We also are working on other targeting features so it'll probably all get lumped together when that time comes.
-Ssra
"He had a lot to say. He had a lot of nothing to say."
The code that handles targeting causes me to have seizures. It's pretty scary.
When Dart, Armifer, and I went through the cast mechanics to add this mod we cleaned them up significantly and by that time I'm not sure we had the energy to deal with targeting. We also are working on other targeting features so it'll probably all get lumped together when that time comes.
-Ssra
"He had a lot to say. He had a lot of nothing to say."
>>Are there any other new features or interesting tidbits we may look forward to?
The update is primarily to allow the targeting of custom body areas on creatures and to fix some bugs and inconsistent messaging in target acquisition.
This is actually the first part of a threefold release that will (eventually) include updates to critters and targeted spells. Ultimately, what we're striving for is consistency and variety in messaging -- no more skeletons losing vital organs or plants screaming in agony.
Critters will be getting more accurate body descriptions. For example, four-legged creatures will be given forelegs, and you will be able to target the thorax of a giant bug.
Targeted spells will be given expanded damage messaging ('crits'). These crits will use the creature being damaged as a basis for unique messaging consistent with that creature's appearance. Even the same crit, when applied to different creatures, may look very different. For example, you will find that crits against S'kra will reflect their reptilian nature.
Both of the above updates will be (and have been) incredibly time-consuming to complete. Due to the modular nature of the system, however, they will be released on an individual basis as they are finished. Don't expect these updates in the near future, though -- the mechanics of the system are still being formulated.
- GM Wythor
What goes up
is futile --
unless it goes out
The update is primarily to allow the targeting of custom body areas on creatures and to fix some bugs and inconsistent messaging in target acquisition.
This is actually the first part of a threefold release that will (eventually) include updates to critters and targeted spells. Ultimately, what we're striving for is consistency and variety in messaging -- no more skeletons losing vital organs or plants screaming in agony.
Critters will be getting more accurate body descriptions. For example, four-legged creatures will be given forelegs, and you will be able to target the thorax of a giant bug.
Targeted spells will be given expanded damage messaging ('crits'). These crits will use the creature being damaged as a basis for unique messaging consistent with that creature's appearance. Even the same crit, when applied to different creatures, may look very different. For example, you will find that crits against S'kra will reflect their reptilian nature.
Both of the above updates will be (and have been) incredibly time-consuming to complete. Due to the modular nature of the system, however, they will be released on an individual basis as they are finished. Don't expect these updates in the near future, though -- the mechanics of the system are still being formulated.
- GM Wythor
What goes up
is futile --
unless it goes out
>>So the annoying tails of prydaens will soon be fair game? Huzzah!
Unless the current directive is changed, you still won't be able to target the tails of PCs. You should be able to target critter tails/wings, however -- provided they are coded to allow it.
- GM Wythor
What goes up
is futile --
unless it goes out
Unless the current directive is changed, you still won't be able to target the tails of PCs. You should be able to target critter tails/wings, however -- provided they are coded to allow it.
- GM Wythor
What goes up
is futile --
unless it goes out
>>Critters will be getting more accurate body descriptions. For example, four-legged creatures will be given forelegs, and you will be able to target the thorax of a giant bug.
>>Targeted spells will be given expanded damage messaging ('crits'). These crits will use the creature being damaged as a basis for unique messaging consistent with that creature's appearance. Even the same crit, when applied to different creatures, may look very different. For example, you will find that crits against S'kra will reflect their reptilian nature.
This is awesome, I'm really looking forward to it... sometimes my favorite part of killing a nasty critter is getting a detailed description of exactly how I eviscerated it...
Sadist? Mebbe...
Player of Relek & crew
>>Targeted spells will be given expanded damage messaging ('crits'). These crits will use the creature being damaged as a basis for unique messaging consistent with that creature's appearance. Even the same crit, when applied to different creatures, may look very different. For example, you will find that crits against S'kra will reflect their reptilian nature.
This is awesome, I'm really looking forward to it... sometimes my favorite part of killing a nasty critter is getting a detailed description of exactly how I eviscerated it...
Sadist? Mebbe...
Player of Relek & crew
I understand that TM is learned as a function of damage dealt to the creature. Unfortunately, snap casting is the only method for training then, so I've been snapping GZ. It's not particularly weak, but as a warrior mage, I anticipated having a variety of spells to aid my hunting, and was dissapointed to find that some warmies STILL use GZ well into their 40's to train targetting.
It's like there's no graduation curve. We don't STILL focus on runestones to train magical devices, we upgrade to bigger and bigger and more and more cambrinth items...
Why should casting dinky, easy to use spells continue to teach long into the point where we're masters of the elements?
It's like there's no graduation curve. We don't STILL focus on runestones to train magical devices, we upgrade to bigger and bigger and more and more cambrinth items...
Why should casting dinky, easy to use spells continue to teach long into the point where we're masters of the elements?
You do have all sorts of options though. Some people just choose to attempt to maximize they best they can with mana to learning ratios. They feel that works best in their interest. You don't have to do that. You can still learn TM lots of ways. Many people on the boards use Aether Lash all the time for TM.
You actually have less options for magical devices. I've used 1 camb armband for the last 5 years.
http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n142/Sirzason/wmsheet2.jpg
a black panther comes flying into view! it hits the ground, bouncing once before sliding to a stop.
A black panther is stunned!
You actually have less options for magical devices. I've used 1 camb armband for the last 5 years.
http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n142/Sirzason/wmsheet2.jpg
a black panther comes flying into view! it hits the ground, bouncing once before sliding to a stop.
A black panther is stunned!
>You actually have less options for magical devices. I've used 1 camb armband for the last 5 years.
Plus, the MD ranks don't really do much for you, and the exp rewards are more broken... 11 mana cap, yet the device holds 100+ mana, and my character can handle 250 mana.
But I agree that some tweaking of the TM formulas would be good. Specifically, the huge bonus multi-shot spells get for learning should be eliminated. Especially when you're landing grazing hits and still mind locking.
Plus, the MD ranks don't really do much for you, and the exp rewards are more broken... 11 mana cap, yet the device holds 100+ mana, and my character can handle 250 mana.
But I agree that some tweaking of the TM formulas would be good. Specifically, the huge bonus multi-shot spells get for learning should be eliminated. Especially when you're landing grazing hits and still mind locking.
I'm not sure if moonies are actually set up like this, so I apologize if I heard wrong:
TKT, Burn, DO and PD all seem to scale upward for damage, and therefor, in teaching. While PD is significantly harder to aim then TKT, it does way more damage, therefor, at higher skill levels, teaches more.
Shouldn't our spells be similar?
And yes, I awknowledge that time spent in the realms isn't a simple calculated breakdown between mana/experience earned, but I'd like to see rewards for more dangerous critters hunted with more awesome spells, rewards that aren't neccesarily neater loot, but more experience gained compared to repeatedly shocking things right about my level with a first tier spell...
Y'know?
TKT, Burn, DO and PD all seem to scale upward for damage, and therefor, in teaching. While PD is significantly harder to aim then TKT, it does way more damage, therefor, at higher skill levels, teaches more.
Shouldn't our spells be similar?
And yes, I awknowledge that time spent in the realms isn't a simple calculated breakdown between mana/experience earned, but I'd like to see rewards for more dangerous critters hunted with more awesome spells, rewards that aren't neccesarily neater loot, but more experience gained compared to repeatedly shocking things right about my level with a first tier spell...
Y'know?
I'm confused by your claim. Are you suggesting that warrior mage spells do not increase in potency with added mana?
PD is a 4th tier spell, TKT is a 1st tier spell. It takes more PM to put more mana into PD, so each mana point is going to be worth more. In additon, as a 4th tier spell, it will do more damage capped than tkt.
Your spells work in a similar fashion. For example: ALA is the highest damage single target spell in the game, iirc.
Additionally, you get CL at 40th which can lock your TM faster than anyone can lock any other combat skill in the game.
Hope that helps?
PD is a 4th tier spell, TKT is a 1st tier spell. It takes more PM to put more mana into PD, so each mana point is going to be worth more. In additon, as a 4th tier spell, it will do more damage capped than tkt.
Your spells work in a similar fashion. For example: ALA is the highest damage single target spell in the game, iirc.
Additionally, you get CL at 40th which can lock your TM faster than anyone can lock any other combat skill in the game.
Hope that helps?
But once a moonie learns DO, and can use it, they won't be using TKT, because TKT likely won't be doing the damage that DO can, and therefor, won't teach as well. Same with the upgrade to PD. Whereas for us, we can learn dragonsbreath and aether lash, but still rely on GZ to really train our targeting.
I could be wrong. But it seems that the point of learning new spells is replacing the old ones. If your still using your baby spells because they teach the best, it seems somethings amiss.
I could be wrong. But it seems that the point of learning new spells is replacing the old ones. If your still using your baby spells because they teach the best, it seems somethings amiss.
>>Additionally, you get CL at 40th which can lock your TM faster than anyone can lock any other combat skill in the game.
I can actually lock brawling in about 10 seconds, from clear to mind locked. Not sure if it's supposed to be that way, but yeah... CL is outstanding for TM.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
I can actually lock brawling in about 10 seconds, from clear to mind locked. Not sure if it's supposed to be that way, but yeah... CL is outstanding for TM.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
>>Whereas for us, we can learn dragonsbreath and aether lash, but still rely on GZ to really train our targeting.
<<
I would argue that you can lock targetted just fine with lash. And again, it's really a moot point anyway once you learn CL.
Honestly, I have Burn, DO, TKT, STRA, and CrS and I still use STRA for training.
>>But it seems that the point of learning new spells is replacing the old ones.<<
Some new spells have other applications (DB for example) or are stellar at hitting heavily armored targets (ALA).
So no, not all new spells are going to replace all the older ones.
<<
I would argue that you can lock targetted just fine with lash. And again, it's really a moot point anyway once you learn CL.
Honestly, I have Burn, DO, TKT, STRA, and CrS and I still use STRA for training.
>>But it seems that the point of learning new spells is replacing the old ones.<<
Some new spells have other applications (DB for example) or are stellar at hitting heavily armored targets (ALA).
So no, not all new spells are going to replace all the older ones.
>>Is this the lodged item trick, or something else?
Yep. I suppose if you include the time it takes to lodge a weapon, then it'd take longer.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
Yep. I suppose if you include the time it takes to lodge a weapon, then it'd take longer.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
Eh, I found once my cleric learned Harm Evil locking TM was a breeze for them too... and I got that rather early. It used to be DR before they changed how that works - or maybe it still does work, I've not played my cleric lately.
Out of curiosity how are Stone strike and Fireball for learning TM?
http://www.drplat.com - The DragonRealms Platinum Community Website. Be sure to vote DragonRealms as your #1 MUD!
Out of curiosity how are Stone strike and Fireball for learning TM?
http://www.drplat.com - The DragonRealms Platinum Community Website. Be sure to vote DragonRealms as your #1 MUD!
If you aren't married to the idea of mind locking TM in under a minute you can use many spells.
If you expect the same learning as CL, then yes, the spell chain is extremely linear.
*******
Doctor: Are you Alliance?
Early: Am I lion? Huh. I don't think of myself as a lion. But you might as well have a mighty roar!
If you expect the same learning as CL, then yes, the spell chain is extremely linear.
*******
Doctor: Are you Alliance?
Early: Am I lion? Huh. I don't think of myself as a lion. But you might as well have a mighty roar!
>But I agree that some tweaking of the TM formulas would be good. Specifically, the huge bonus multi-shot spells get for learning should be eliminated. Especially when you're landing grazing hits and still mind locking.
"Quickly erases all traces of this post and kidnapps the writer to brainwash the idea out of him"
BAH! What are you trying to do get us nerfed some more. I KNOW you were around for the last "tweak" where they scalled back the amount of EXP you get from each shot of the multi hit spells. Fire Shard spell pretty much became obsolite at that point.
Than came the nerfing of the amount of nerve damage that GZ, LB and CL do which of course took away the most powerful wbeapon we had at that time. Back when I agree some of our spells were a touch on the unbalanced side regarding just how powerful they were said nerve damage was one of them. However the past two year's drive to "even the field" is starting to get to the point where every guild will be so much on an "even" level when it comes to power and abilities overall that selecting which one to play might as well be a dice toss for all the difference there is between them.
Take away CL without giving us a realistic alternative to learn TM and still kill things at higher levels is going to be a death knell for the WM guild past a certain point as most of our 3rd and 4th tier TM spells suck for training TM AND killing things. Fire rain is very nice trainer if all you want to do is tickle your opposition to death while you still get to lock TM. Lightening Ball... forget it takes FOR EVER to lock with. Mark of Arath... I have not played with that but I am told under the right circumstances it CAN train OK. Seriously man I'd like to see some high end options and realistic alternatives first BEFORE they start nerfing things not the other way around.
"Quickly erases all traces of this post and kidnapps the writer to brainwash the idea out of him"
BAH! What are you trying to do get us nerfed some more. I KNOW you were around for the last "tweak" where they scalled back the amount of EXP you get from each shot of the multi hit spells. Fire Shard spell pretty much became obsolite at that point.
Than came the nerfing of the amount of nerve damage that GZ, LB and CL do which of course took away the most powerful wbeapon we had at that time. Back when I agree some of our spells were a touch on the unbalanced side regarding just how powerful they were said nerve damage was one of them. However the past two year's drive to "even the field" is starting to get to the point where every guild will be so much on an "even" level when it comes to power and abilities overall that selecting which one to play might as well be a dice toss for all the difference there is between them.
Take away CL without giving us a realistic alternative to learn TM and still kill things at higher levels is going to be a death knell for the WM guild past a certain point as most of our 3rd and 4th tier TM spells suck for training TM AND killing things. Fire rain is very nice trainer if all you want to do is tickle your opposition to death while you still get to lock TM. Lightening Ball... forget it takes FOR EVER to lock with. Mark of Arath... I have not played with that but I am told under the right circumstances it CAN train OK. Seriously man I'd like to see some high end options and realistic alternatives first BEFORE they start nerfing things not the other way around.
>Out of curiosity how are Stone strike and Fireball for learning TM?
Good damage spell the FB good for killing things with 20 to 25 mana. SUX for training TM and will bleed you dry of mana if you do want to move TM with it.
Stone strike can do a lot of damage with a LOT of mana. Other than that it is not much of a spell any WM cares to use. Basically a cruddier Earth version of Fire Ball. And NO can not use it for learning TM at all as it will tank your mana pooll in five cats tops if you want to do any real damage in all but best mana rooms.
Good damage spell the FB good for killing things with 20 to 25 mana. SUX for training TM and will bleed you dry of mana if you do want to move TM with it.
Stone strike can do a lot of damage with a LOT of mana. Other than that it is not much of a spell any WM cares to use. Basically a cruddier Earth version of Fire Ball. And NO can not use it for learning TM at all as it will tank your mana pooll in five cats tops if you want to do any real damage in all but best mana rooms.
There is no inherent learning bonus for multi-shot spells.
Multi-shot spells can teach well because landing 20 grazing hits can teach better than landing one massive hit in the same time period. If you have a problem with the way multi-shot spells teach, you have a problem with that model.
Frankly, there are more serious issues with pulse spells than how well they teach.
- Mazrian
Multi-shot spells can teach well because landing 20 grazing hits can teach better than landing one massive hit in the same time period. If you have a problem with the way multi-shot spells teach, you have a problem with that model.
Frankly, there are more serious issues with pulse spells than how well they teach.
- Mazrian
>Multi-shot spells can teach well because landing 20 grazing hits can teach better than landing one massive hit in the same time period. If you have a problem with the way multi-shot spells teach, you have a problem with that model.
Precisely.
Also, the point of my post was that some level of nerf to multi-shot/grazing exp might be required to give the other spells their niche.
>Frankly, there are more serious issues with pulse spells than how well they teach.
I assume you're referring to CL being relatively weak against high level creatures. If not, what are the other issues?
Precisely.
Also, the point of my post was that some level of nerf to multi-shot/grazing exp might be required to give the other spells their niche.
>Frankly, there are more serious issues with pulse spells than how well they teach.
I assume you're referring to CL being relatively weak against high level creatures. If not, what are the other issues?
>>the point of my post was that some level of nerf to multi-shot/grazing exp might be required to give the other spells their niche
From a standpoint of mechanics, the numbers are pretty staggering. There is a darn good reason why GZ and CL are the TM trainers of choice, and only part of the reason is because other spells don't teach very well.
To get an idea of the problem, here's a simple question. Which of the following two spells would you prefer to train with?
a) A spell that hits several times and can be snap-cast with a small accuracy penalty.
b) A spell that hits once and can be snap-cast with a much larger accuracy penalty.
In the grand scheme of things, being able to fully target a single-shot spell doesn't outweigh the snap-cast imbalance. A single huge hit simply doesn't teach as much as several smaller hits within the same time frame.
- GM Wythor
What goes up
is futile --
unless it goes out
From a standpoint of mechanics, the numbers are pretty staggering. There is a darn good reason why GZ and CL are the TM trainers of choice, and only part of the reason is because other spells don't teach very well.
To get an idea of the problem, here's a simple question. Which of the following two spells would you prefer to train with?
a) A spell that hits several times and can be snap-cast with a small accuracy penalty.
b) A spell that hits once and can be snap-cast with a much larger accuracy penalty.
In the grand scheme of things, being able to fully target a single-shot spell doesn't outweigh the snap-cast imbalance. A single huge hit simply doesn't teach as much as several smaller hits within the same time frame.
- GM Wythor
What goes up
is futile --
unless it goes out
