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Just to add to the arguments pro-TWC spear use. One handed spears have DFs roughly equivalent to or even behind one handed weapons of the same speed.
IRL, spears were often combined with shorter weapons (dagger, shortsword) to deal with foes charging inside the range of the spear (a combat interaction not well represented in GS but which might roughly be approximated by TWC use). Also, although using two spears is not particularly mentioned in historical sources, it is something that shows up in fantasy settings reasonably often.
Sweet is the sound of the pouring rain,
And the stream that falls from the hill to plain.
Better than rain or rippling brook,
Is a mug of beer inside this Took.
IRL, spears were often combined with shorter weapons (dagger, shortsword) to deal with foes charging inside the range of the spear (a combat interaction not well represented in GS but which might roughly be approximated by TWC use). Also, although using two spears is not particularly mentioned in historical sources, it is something that shows up in fantasy settings reasonably often.
Sweet is the sound of the pouring rain,
And the stream that falls from the hill to plain.
Better than rain or rippling brook,
Is a mug of beer inside this Took.
I was trying to go with assegai, but it seems that I was actually thinking of the iklwa.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assegai#Iklwa
The long leaf-blade/short-hafted spears that you see used with an atlatl would be a good example.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assegai#Iklwa
The long leaf-blade/short-hafted spears that you see used with an atlatl would be a good example.
<IRL, spears were often combined with shorter weapons (dagger, shortsword) to deal with foes charging inside the range of the spear>
Other weapons were usually carried by spear users, but they were side-arms pulled out after the spear was broken, thrown, or otherwise discarded... not off-hand weapons. In cases where spears were used one-handed, they would have had a shield in the other hand. Not to say no one ever pulled out a sword and started swinging without dropping a spear, but there wouldn't have been any benefit to retaining the spear with the foe inside its range. If you have sources that indicate otherwise, I'd love to see them though.
<it is something that shows up in fantasy settings reasonably often.>
I can't recall seeing this, but I've hardly seen/read everything fantasy despite it being my favorite genre and there are things in GS that bother me way more then seeing this would... if there's folk that would enjoy playing this way, let them have it.
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
Other weapons were usually carried by spear users, but they were side-arms pulled out after the spear was broken, thrown, or otherwise discarded... not off-hand weapons. In cases where spears were used one-handed, they would have had a shield in the other hand. Not to say no one ever pulled out a sword and started swinging without dropping a spear, but there wouldn't have been any benefit to retaining the spear with the foe inside its range. If you have sources that indicate otherwise, I'd love to see them though.
<it is something that shows up in fantasy settings reasonably often.>
I can't recall seeing this, but I've hardly seen/read everything fantasy despite it being my favorite genre and there are things in GS that bother me way more then seeing this would... if there's folk that would enjoy playing this way, let them have it.
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
<The long leaf-blade/short-hafted spears that you see used with an atlatl would be a good example.>
Hhhhmmmm.... prior posts had me thinking of spears used in melee situations. Throwing two spears at once prolly would make more sense, there really isn't any difference between a spear and a javelin other then intended use.... which makes me realize I don't know if javelins can be used with TWC in Elanthia.
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
Hhhhmmmm.... prior posts had me thinking of spears used in melee situations. Throwing two spears at once prolly would make more sense, there really isn't any difference between a spear and a javelin other then intended use.... which makes me realize I don't know if javelins can be used with TWC in Elanthia.
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
It would seem reasonable to me to keep the spear in hand if one expected to use it again quickly. While not exactly duel-wielding, TWC is still arguably a reasonable game mechanic equivalent given the GS combat structure. After all, hand crossbow + sword is effectively the same dynamic.
Lets see what period sources have to offer for examples:
Pistofilo 1621 shows fighting with swords while still holding pikes in the off hand, including threatening with both weapons at once (pike held near the tip).
Fiore die Liberi's spear plays shows blocking with the spear while stabbing with a knife
KK 5013 shows blocking with a spear and using a sword at the same time.
Talhoffer 1459 shows throwing spears with longsword in hand while closing with the foe as part of armored fencing
I will grant you that most of the above do not show simultaneous attacks with both weapons, but one could say the same for most depictions of sword and dagger. One is usually controlling the other person's weapon and the other attacking. Beyond that, I cannot recall any period art or treatise depicting longsword and morning star or rapier and warhammer, yet both work fine in GS.
Sweet is the sound of the pouring rain,
And the stream that falls from the hill to plain.
Better than rain or rippling brook,
Is a mug of beer inside this Took.
Lets see what period sources have to offer for examples:
Pistofilo 1621 shows fighting with swords while still holding pikes in the off hand, including threatening with both weapons at once (pike held near the tip).
Fiore die Liberi's spear plays shows blocking with the spear while stabbing with a knife
KK 5013 shows blocking with a spear and using a sword at the same time.
Talhoffer 1459 shows throwing spears with longsword in hand while closing with the foe as part of armored fencing
I will grant you that most of the above do not show simultaneous attacks with both weapons, but one could say the same for most depictions of sword and dagger. One is usually controlling the other person's weapon and the other attacking. Beyond that, I cannot recall any period art or treatise depicting longsword and morning star or rapier and warhammer, yet both work fine in GS.
Sweet is the sound of the pouring rain,
And the stream that falls from the hill to plain.
Better than rain or rippling brook,
Is a mug of beer inside this Took.
4-5 years ago (maybe even longer?) I got them to revise some weapons and their use in TWC. Some weapons were added and some were left to not be used eith TWC for various reasons.
I think the posts could probably be found in the old archived forums if someone was bored enough to try and find them.
I think the posts could probably be found in the old archived forums if someone was bored enough to try and find them.
<Lets see what period sources have to offer for examples:>
I'll have to look those up when I get off work, though I was hoping for treatises . Art doesn't necessarily inform how period weapons were used any more then movies accurately portray how firearms are actually used today (Rambo or John Wick anyone?).... but (more important to the tread), it does show that people of the time could have found it believable.
Between how combat works in GS and that they could be used in that way (whether or not they were), I don't see how it would be any worse then TWC morning stars. I say go for it unless there's a significant mechanical problem with it.
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
I'll have to look those up when I get off work, though I was hoping for treatises . Art doesn't necessarily inform how period weapons were used any more then movies accurately portray how firearms are actually used today (Rambo or John Wick anyone?).... but (more important to the tread), it does show that people of the time could have found it believable.
Between how combat works in GS and that they could be used in that way (whether or not they were), I don't see how it would be any worse then TWC morning stars. I say go for it unless there's a significant mechanical problem with it.
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
>I'll have to look those up when I get off work, though I was hoping for treatises . Art doesn't necessarily inform how period weapons were used any more then movies accurately portray how firearms are actually used today (Rambo or John Wick anyone?).... but (more important to the tread), it does show that people of the time could have found it believable.
>Starchitin, the OG
Those are all treatises.
Sweet is the sound of the pouring rain,
And the stream that falls from the hill to plain.
Better than rain or rippling brook,
Is a mug of beer inside this Took.
>Starchitin, the OG
Those are all treatises.
Sweet is the sound of the pouring rain,
And the stream that falls from the hill to plain.
Better than rain or rippling brook,
Is a mug of beer inside this Took.
For ease.
https://hroarr.com/manuals/other/pistofilo-bonaventura-oplomachia-1621.pdf
Parte 99
https://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Fiore_de%27i_Liberi#Spear_vs._Other_Weapons
Spear vs other weapons, 13
https://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Gladiatoria_(MS_KK5013)
Folio 4v
https://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Hans_Talhoffer#Personal_Manuscript_.281459.29
Personal manuscript 1459, armored fencing, 3-5
Sweet is the sound of the pouring rain,
And the stream that falls from the hill to plain.
Better than rain or rippling brook,
Is a mug of beer inside this Took.
https://hroarr.com/manuals/other/pistofilo-bonaventura-oplomachia-1621.pdf
Parte 99
https://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Fiore_de%27i_Liberi#Spear_vs._Other_Weapons
Spear vs other weapons, 13
https://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Gladiatoria_(MS_KK5013)
Folio 4v
https://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Hans_Talhoffer#Personal_Manuscript_.281459.29
Personal manuscript 1459, armored fencing, 3-5
Sweet is the sound of the pouring rain,
And the stream that falls from the hill to plain.
Better than rain or rippling brook,
Is a mug of beer inside this Took.
Okay, I was bored. I found the posts about updating some TWC weapons, which was back in December of 2015.
http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Old%20Forum%20Topics%20%5BRead%20Only%5D/Two%20Weapons%20Combat/view/156
http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Old%20Forum%20Topics%20%5BRead%20Only%5D/Two%20Weapons%20Combat/view/164
So, now that it's been reminded to folks that arrows and bolts can be used in TWC - who's going to start doing using them for that purpose in TWC?
http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Old%20Forum%20Topics%20%5BRead%20Only%5D/Two%20Weapons%20Combat/view/156
| The following weapons can now be used in Two Weapon Combat: Ball and Chains, Whips, Arrows and Bolts. |
| ~Contemplar~\ |
http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Old%20Forum%20Topics%20%5BRead%20Only%5D/Two%20Weapons%20Combat/view/164
| Any possibility of adding whipblades to this update? |
| >I believe this restriction has always had more to do with game lore then anything else. Never say never, but I wouldn't get my hopes up too high. |
| >Starchitin |
| Other weapons were considered in this review, but many were deemed just not appropriate for TWC in Elanthia. This includes spears, javelins and whip-blades. Just as Starchitin indicated game lore supports that whip-blades are not TWC capable. |
| As for allowing arrows and bolts? Why not? More TWC access to weapons mean better, right? |
| ~Contemplar~ |
So, now that it's been reminded to folks that arrows and bolts can be used in TWC - who's going to start doing using them for that purpose in TWC?
<Those are all treatises.>
Ah, ok.... the word "shows" threw me off. I'm no expert by far, but I try to stay plugged into what folk in HEMA are doing just cause I find in interesting.
<For ease.>
Thank you.
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
Ah, ok.... the word "shows" threw me off. I'm no expert by far, but I try to stay plugged into what folk in HEMA are doing just cause I find in interesting.
<For ease.>
Thank you.
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
+1 for twc spears.
You know you want to be this guy: https://31.media.tumblr.com/26b07241c7cd97cac80a80cc4fa66c61/tumblr_n40yt4z0tM1qmxe1vo1_500.gif
Virtually all dual wielding is categorically absurd from a historical/realism position. I don't see why it should be limited in any respect. Using two spears is ridiculous, but it's not nearly as ridiculous as wielding two morning stars, two broadswords, or any other heavy weapon. There is zero historical precedent for dual wielding two large swords, and yet it's perfectly normal in gemstone - which is fine, it's fantasy.
tl;dr open up all dual wielding and open up whips for trip.
tl;dr open up all dual wielding and open up whips for trip.
>Virtually all dual wielding is categorically absurd from a historical/realism position. I don't see why it should be limited in any respect. Using two spears is ridiculous, but it's not nearly as ridiculous as wielding two morning stars, two broadswords, or any other heavy weapon. There is zero historical precedent for dual wielding two large swords, and yet it's perfectly normal in gemstone - which is fine, it's fantasy.
"Zero precedent" is a difficult statement to backup. Maybe go more with, it was very uncommon in history and then continue on with all the above statements.
Here are links to 14 treatises that mention or describe the use of two rapiers (in reality very large swords unlike in GS) or two sideswords.
https://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Category:Double_Side_Swords
https://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Category:Double_Rapiers
Sweet is the sound of the pouring rain,
And the stream that falls from the hill to plain.
Better than rain or rippling brook,
Is a mug of beer inside this Took.
"Zero precedent" is a difficult statement to backup. Maybe go more with, it was very uncommon in history and then continue on with all the above statements.
Here are links to 14 treatises that mention or describe the use of two rapiers (in reality very large swords unlike in GS) or two sideswords.
https://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Category:Double_Side_Swords
https://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Category:Double_Rapiers
Sweet is the sound of the pouring rain,
And the stream that falls from the hill to plain.
Better than rain or rippling brook,
Is a mug of beer inside this Took.
>Here are links to 14 treatises that mention or describe the use of two rapiers (in reality very large swords unlike in GS) or two sideswords.
Probably should have said almost zero, or qualified it in regard to martial settings. I am aware there are pieces of artwork that have depicted it in dueling and gladitorial settings, but I have poked around a bit and never seen anything credibly indicating two large weapons were dual wielded in a practical, martial setting. Doesn't mean it didn't happen, but if it was anything other than vanishingly rare we'd have more evidence of it.
The point remains that there is little to no historical precedent for it, ergo historical precedent shouldn't play a significant role, if any at all, in the discussion surrounding dual wielding spears.
Probably should have said almost zero, or qualified it in regard to martial settings. I am aware there are pieces of artwork that have depicted it in dueling and gladitorial settings, but I have poked around a bit and never seen anything credibly indicating two large weapons were dual wielded in a practical, martial setting. Doesn't mean it didn't happen, but if it was anything other than vanishingly rare we'd have more evidence of it.
The point remains that there is little to no historical precedent for it, ergo historical precedent shouldn't play a significant role, if any at all, in the discussion surrounding dual wielding spears.
There are also plenty of Japanese weapons that are regularly duel-wielded. Sai, Tanfa, and Kama to name a few. Not all of those are particularly light or wieldy in the hand without proper training either but are effective when used properly.
That being said, I don't see why you couldn't make spears compatible with TWC either, and would be interested in that compatibility myself as I regularly use a spear base.
-Perigourd's Player.
That being said, I don't see why you couldn't make spears compatible with TWC either, and would be interested in that compatibility myself as I regularly use a spear base.
-Perigourd's Player.
