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Reply| Starchitin, the OG |
| This is why I asked whether 304/Voln bless will work with sanctified weapons (and am still waiting for an answer). |
Yes, you will be able to bless a sanctified weapon.
GameMaster Estild
<Yes, you will be able to bless a sanctified weapon.>
Thank you, this will go a long way towards helping me decide how many silvers I wanna allocate towards this if/when it's released.
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
Thank you, this will go a long way towards helping me decide how many silvers I wanna allocate towards this if/when it's released.
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
>>I think there's a misconception that every character and every weapon will be tier 5 sanctified, which won't be the case. Not only will this be gated by player Clerics actually playing and progressing their character each week, but a significant majority of the weapons that have permabless or greater undead bane are very high end and player cast 330 will not work on them due to the gear difficult
But every weapon will be able to be trivially 304'd, stacking holy flares and the NCU-anchoring on top of its existing properties? Effectively making Undead easier than Living? Unless I'm misreading...
Finding a bless has never been that hard. The undead difficulty primarily comes from having to use a weaker weapon that can accept a bless. If everything can be 304'd easily, then the default configuration for most players will be that their weapon is stronger against Undead than against Living.
But every weapon will be able to be trivially 304'd, stacking holy flares and the NCU-anchoring on top of its existing properties? Effectively making Undead easier than Living? Unless I'm misreading...
Finding a bless has never been that hard. The undead difficulty primarily comes from having to use a weaker weapon that can accept a bless. If everything can be 304'd easily, then the default configuration for most players will be that their weapon is stronger against Undead than against Living.
I would love an answer for the concern on demons needing a bless and 8x enchant to hit them and also how would splitter weapons, and twin weapons (or whatever they are called) will work with bless? Will there be plans to improve 1625 or at least give it a small upgrade? In the name of balance, could only the Liablo arkati do bless and the Lornon do a bane version of the bless 2.0 ? Neutrals... not sure of but somethingish or just make one go bless and the other go bane if nothing can be decided?
Plans to improve the other metals to make them special again?
The change really is overkill and I really do feel this is a (as somebody said prior) a slap in the face to the paladin class and arguably towards a few clerics that choose to melee and it does break part rich spirit of Gemstone. I whole heartedly agree that is easy as pie to get a bless and this is just a quality of life upgrade at the expense of taking away the uniqueness of the paladins and clerics being able to use eonake and white ora and being very good versus the undead (as they should be). By at least making a bane version and then beefing up the beasties, maybe then balance can be found again although the paladin 1625 (and arguably the rest of the spells of the paladn AND the offensive casts of clerics) should be upgraded to show why they are the champions versus the undead and demons etc.
May it be inquired to what even brought this up in the first place to even consider this overkill change proposal so there can be a better solution then bless 2.0 to address whatever the problem is?
__________________________
- Kobold in Disguise Falvicar, Blade of the Night
You swing a silver-edged black veil iron katana at Sevynne!
* Sevynne drops dead at your feet!
* Sevynne just bit the dust!
Its a roleplaying game. Your characters identity shouldnt be wrapped up into 1 or 2 spells.
Also 1625 doesnt need squat. Youre able to infuse a spell and have it activate prior to the attack resolution. No other profession can do that. With arcane and religion you can infuse any spell you want with a scroll.
The holy metals dont need anything either. Most folks avoided them like the plague because of the increased difficulty for projects and alchemy potion requirements.
Also 1625 doesnt need squat. Youre able to infuse a spell and have it activate prior to the attack resolution. No other profession can do that. With arcane and religion you can infuse any spell you want with a scroll.
The holy metals dont need anything either. Most folks avoided them like the plague because of the increased difficulty for projects and alchemy potion requirements.
| As I gaze over the horizon, the wind tugs at my cloak and whispers, "Adventure" in my ear. |
| A squeaky halfling nearby asks, "Why you playing with orcs heads and troll rearends?!" |
>Its a roleplaying game. Your characters identity shouldnt be wrapped up into 1 or 2 spells.
The fact that Gemstone is a roleplaying game is precisely what makes some of us uncomfortable about the bless changes. I like the game's treatment of undead. The difficulty of killing them, the backstory of voln, the profession interaction of bless-seeking - these things are not simply game mechanics, but additionally help construct the game world in an abstract sense.
This entire proposal feels like it should be called *330 - Sanctify: A spell to make killing undead more convenient*. I guess that's where we're at though.
The fact that Gemstone is a roleplaying game is precisely what makes some of us uncomfortable about the bless changes. I like the game's treatment of undead. The difficulty of killing them, the backstory of voln, the profession interaction of bless-seeking - these things are not simply game mechanics, but additionally help construct the game world in an abstract sense.
This entire proposal feels like it should be called *330 - Sanctify: A spell to make killing undead more convenient*. I guess that's where we're at though.
<The fact that Gemstone is a roleplaying game is precisely what makes some of us uncomfortable about the bless changes. I like the game's treatment of undead. The difficulty of killing them, the backstory of voln, the profession interaction of bless-seeking - these things are not simply game mechanics, but additionally help construct the game world in an abstract sense.
This entire proposal feels like it should be called *330 - Sanctify: A spell to make killing undead more convenient*. I guess that's where we're at though.>
I guess my response to this is, why have melee users been screwed over this whole time? Even as a GUB owner, I think this change needs to happen to put melee and pures on the same footing. The other change I would fully support is that pures should be required to obtain blesses (or holy magic essence or whatever) so their magic will hit undead.
This entire proposal feels like it should be called *330 - Sanctify: A spell to make killing undead more convenient*. I guess that's where we're at though.>
I guess my response to this is, why have melee users been screwed over this whole time? Even as a GUB owner, I think this change needs to happen to put melee and pures on the same footing. The other change I would fully support is that pures should be required to obtain blesses (or holy magic essence or whatever) so their magic will hit undead.
> I like the game's treatment of undead. The difficulty of killing them, the backstory of voln, the profession interaction of bless-seeking - these things are not simply game mechanics, but additionally help construct the game world in an abstract sense.
You can say that twice and mean it.
Avaia, player of
You can say that twice and mean it.
Avaia, player of
Looks good, but I have questions,
Questions:
1) Will With the new system, will kroderine soul / Voln Masters still retain the ability to bless their gear and wepaons?
2) Will blessed gear still be prerequisite to using certain cman abilities against undead?
3) Will blessing my cap make my bald spot glow?
Clunk
(Buy your swords at CBD weapons in Zul Logoth.)
>I guess my response to this is, why have melee users been screwed over this whole time?
I have played numerous melee users, including ones that exclusively hunted undead. I never, at any point, felt that I was being 'screwed over'. Did I find it a little annoying at times to seek out a bless? Sure. Was it anything more than an inconvenience? Never. Not ever. Not once. Not even a little bit.
If you wanted to scale your argument back a bit and say that, for example, you think the current bless system is annoying and should be changed, I would say that's reasonable. But to say that it 'screws over' melee users, and that this titanic pendulum swing that makes undead literally easier to kill than non-undead? That sounds to me like yet another piece of Gemstone's game history dying on the altar of convenience and development for development's sake.
I have played numerous melee users, including ones that exclusively hunted undead. I never, at any point, felt that I was being 'screwed over'. Did I find it a little annoying at times to seek out a bless? Sure. Was it anything more than an inconvenience? Never. Not ever. Not once. Not even a little bit.
If you wanted to scale your argument back a bit and say that, for example, you think the current bless system is annoying and should be changed, I would say that's reasonable. But to say that it 'screws over' melee users, and that this titanic pendulum swing that makes undead literally easier to kill than non-undead? That sounds to me like yet another piece of Gemstone's game history dying on the altar of convenience and development for development's sake.
>If you wanted to scale your argument back a bit and say that, for example, you think the current bless system is annoying and should be changed, I would say that's reasonable. But to say that it 'screws over' melee users, and that this titanic pendulum swing that makes undead literally easier to kill than non-undead? That sounds to me like yet another piece of Gemstone's game history dying on the altar of convenience and development for development's sake.
Its handing out attack abilities to undead 50 levels earlier than they get handed out to the living that makes undead hard. Bless changes are trivial compared to this.
It wasn't trouble with bless that got me killed at level 17 on my first GS4 character, it was Torment. You don't get Tormented in level 17 hunting unless its undead. I'd never even heard of that spell before it killed me (twice in quick succession before I realised this was something I had to work out how to deal with). Same with all sorts of stuff. The first thing to kill me with most critter abilities in GS was an undead, because undead tend to get the really lethal stuff at a lower level than other critters.
So I get a slightly better AS against a tree spirit, so its still gonna kill me with 917 given the slightest smidgeon of a chance to act. A little more AS isn't going to change that. The new 309 handing out damage so fast that a tree can't shake 301 before its dead and the oodles of extra mana available to allow 309 to be staple at level 25 changed that balance, but these 304/330 changes are trivial. 309/320 meant I could go back to wights and trees on a cleric, 304/330 isn't going to open them up to me on any class.
Its handing out attack abilities to undead 50 levels earlier than they get handed out to the living that makes undead hard. Bless changes are trivial compared to this.
It wasn't trouble with bless that got me killed at level 17 on my first GS4 character, it was Torment. You don't get Tormented in level 17 hunting unless its undead. I'd never even heard of that spell before it killed me (twice in quick succession before I realised this was something I had to work out how to deal with). Same with all sorts of stuff. The first thing to kill me with most critter abilities in GS was an undead, because undead tend to get the really lethal stuff at a lower level than other critters.
So I get a slightly better AS against a tree spirit, so its still gonna kill me with 917 given the slightest smidgeon of a chance to act. A little more AS isn't going to change that. The new 309 handing out damage so fast that a tree can't shake 301 before its dead and the oodles of extra mana available to allow 309 to be staple at level 25 changed that balance, but these 304/330 changes are trivial. 309/320 meant I could go back to wights and trees on a cleric, 304/330 isn't going to open them up to me on any class.
<The fact that Gemstone is a roleplaying game is precisely what makes some of us uncomfortable about the bless changes. I like the game's treatment of undead. The difficulty of killing them, the backstory of voln, the profession interaction of bless-seeking - these things are not simply game mechanics, but additionally help construct the game world in an abstract sense.
This entire proposal feels like it should be called *330 - Sanctify: A spell to make killing undead more convenient*. I guess that's where we're at though.>
I guess my response to this is, why have melee users been screwed over this whole time? Even as a GUB owner, I think this change needs to happen to put melee and pures on the same footing. The other change I would fully support is that pures should be required to obtain blesses (or holy magic essence or whatever) so their magic will hit undead.
____________________________________________________________
How, exactly, is melee getting screwed over? Nothing stops you from getting a bless. And for argument sake: Paladins are melee in case you you have forgotten. They still need to ward / hit the creatures though and that still takes mana. Typically they are squishy too. In my experience, most ppk (from an RPing point of view) fight undead because they are part of Voln and thus should be expected to (not to mention have a clear advantage by being able to self bless without the need of a cleric) I get other religions and societies go after undead too... but that isn't exactly their specialty. If anything, maybe change some of the "rules with the undead" when it comes to spells to keep clerics, paladins, Volners as the masters of going after the undead.
This really is just a Quality of Life request that messes with the lore and at the cost of what it means to be a paladin / Volner. It gets rid of the flavor of the metals as well makes people regret spending all the time, effort, and money (for Duskruin entries as an example) acquiring those items that were special if this Bless 2.0 goes live. Truly I hope it doesn't. It would destroy the richness of the game. What was the point of accomplishing goals to get those items that took YEARS to achieve.. just for it to go right down the lava tube at Teras? Is Quality of Life really worth this expense?
I suppose to give a suggestion if this vexing suggestion does happen is due at this point to at least try to salvage it from being a complete train reck. Make the undead 50 percent resistant to melee weapons that arent blesed. Keep the Bless at 25%. Paladins 1625 allows the paladin to have zero resistance. Eonake and White Ora are still the way they still currently are... sanctified naturally in the hands of clerics and paladins and they, too, hit with 0 resistance from the undead. Blades that are both purified by a paladin of Liablo and blessed by a cleric of Liablo have 0 resistance for x amount of swings. Treat Voln blesses the same and again for the pure potions that are poured on them IF they are of Liablo.
Oh but what of Lornon? The reverse. Bane... which is more damage to living. Enter Black Ora and whatever metal is opposite to eonake and treat the same except instead of the "smite bless" it is a bane bless.
Neutral? I would say look at their society at that point. If they are with Voln then obviously go with the smite bless route of Liablo... else bane.
__________________________
- Kobold in Disguise Falvicar, Blade of the Night
You swing a silver-edged black veil iron katana at Sevynne!
* Sevynne drops dead at your feet!
* Sevynne just bit the dust!
This entire proposal feels like it should be called *330 - Sanctify: A spell to make killing undead more convenient*. I guess that's where we're at though.>
I guess my response to this is, why have melee users been screwed over this whole time? Even as a GUB owner, I think this change needs to happen to put melee and pures on the same footing. The other change I would fully support is that pures should be required to obtain blesses (or holy magic essence or whatever) so their magic will hit undead.
____________________________________________________________
How, exactly, is melee getting screwed over? Nothing stops you from getting a bless. And for argument sake: Paladins are melee in case you you have forgotten. They still need to ward / hit the creatures though and that still takes mana. Typically they are squishy too. In my experience, most ppk (from an RPing point of view) fight undead because they are part of Voln and thus should be expected to (not to mention have a clear advantage by being able to self bless without the need of a cleric) I get other religions and societies go after undead too... but that isn't exactly their specialty. If anything, maybe change some of the "rules with the undead" when it comes to spells to keep clerics, paladins, Volners as the masters of going after the undead.
This really is just a Quality of Life request that messes with the lore and at the cost of what it means to be a paladin / Volner. It gets rid of the flavor of the metals as well makes people regret spending all the time, effort, and money (for Duskruin entries as an example) acquiring those items that were special if this Bless 2.0 goes live. Truly I hope it doesn't. It would destroy the richness of the game. What was the point of accomplishing goals to get those items that took YEARS to achieve.. just for it to go right down the lava tube at Teras? Is Quality of Life really worth this expense?
I suppose to give a suggestion if this vexing suggestion does happen is due at this point to at least try to salvage it from being a complete train reck. Make the undead 50 percent resistant to melee weapons that arent blesed. Keep the Bless at 25%. Paladins 1625 allows the paladin to have zero resistance. Eonake and White Ora are still the way they still currently are... sanctified naturally in the hands of clerics and paladins and they, too, hit with 0 resistance from the undead. Blades that are both purified by a paladin of Liablo and blessed by a cleric of Liablo have 0 resistance for x amount of swings. Treat Voln blesses the same and again for the pure potions that are poured on them IF they are of Liablo.
Oh but what of Lornon? The reverse. Bane... which is more damage to living. Enter Black Ora and whatever metal is opposite to eonake and treat the same except instead of the "smite bless" it is a bane bless.
Neutral? I would say look at their society at that point. If they are with Voln then obviously go with the smite bless route of Liablo... else bane.
__________________________
- Kobold in Disguise Falvicar, Blade of the Night
You swing a silver-edged black veil iron katana at Sevynne!
* Sevynne drops dead at your feet!
* Sevynne just bit the dust!
<I suppose to give a suggestion if this vexing suggestion does happen is due at this point to at least try to salvage it from being a complete train reck. Make the undead 50 percent resistant to melee weapons that arent blesed. Keep the Bless at 25%. Paladins 1625 allows the paladin to have zero resistance. Eonake and White Ora are still the way they still currently are... sanctified naturally in the hands of clerics and paladins and they, too, hit with 0 resistance from the undead. Blades that are both purified by a paladin of Liablo and blessed by a cleric of Liablo have 0 resistance for x amount of swings. Treat Voln blesses the same and again for the pure potions that are poured on them IF they are of Liablo.>
So.... your solution is to take the proposal from a slight QOL improvement to a to royal pain for anyone that's not a cleric/paladin to hunt undead?
I've got nothing against making sure mechanics and lore are in sync, but making folk track down multiple PCs (one of which is prolly the least played profession) every couple hunts would be a hard no from me. There's enough that's a slog just for the sake of being a slog in GS, we don't need to add more.
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
So.... your solution is to take the proposal from a slight QOL improvement to a to royal pain for anyone that's not a cleric/paladin to hunt undead?
I've got nothing against making sure mechanics and lore are in sync, but making folk track down multiple PCs (one of which is prolly the least played profession) every couple hunts would be a hard no from me. There's enough that's a slog just for the sake of being a slog in GS, we don't need to add more.
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
>So.... your solution is to take the proposal from a slight QOL improvement to a to royal pain for anyone that's not a cleric/paladin to hunt undead?
Yeah I don't agree with this either (I'm chiming in because I was quoted in the response). If anything, I think the original document wherein eonake/white ora was automatically T5 Sanct in the hands of a cleric or paladin made sense. I don't know why they trimmed that. Did you think it was too powerful? It's not too powerful at all. In fact, it retains continuity with how the game has worked for 30 years - you moved around what 'sanctify' meant, but kept its qualitative function in the hands of clerics and paladins the same, and that made sense.
If you (the devs) think that giving clerics and paladins 'free' T5 sanctify is too powerful, you need to step back and evaluate what that means: you are saying "free sanctify is too good for clerics and paladins." That's a crazy statement in the context of Gemstone, and it turns the traditional role of sanctify on its head. I know, I know, they still get a free quasi-sanctify, but you and I both know that every paladin/cleric will want their weapon of choice to be full T5.
Now, you might say giving clerics/paladins free T5 Sanctify is too powerful. Too powerful? In a game with wizards in their current state? Sorry, that doesn't get any traction, if it is indeed the reason that caused the devs to drop this from the proposal.
Now to be clear, I am against this change turning undead from something with an obstacle to hunting into something easier to hunt. But if you (the devs) insist on doing it, please keep sanctify as something that clerics and paladins get 'automatically' when the weapon is in their hands. In the current proposal, a smart cleric would just bless vultite rather than use eonake.
Yeah I don't agree with this either (I'm chiming in because I was quoted in the response). If anything, I think the original document wherein eonake/white ora was automatically T5 Sanct in the hands of a cleric or paladin made sense. I don't know why they trimmed that. Did you think it was too powerful? It's not too powerful at all. In fact, it retains continuity with how the game has worked for 30 years - you moved around what 'sanctify' meant, but kept its qualitative function in the hands of clerics and paladins the same, and that made sense.
If you (the devs) think that giving clerics and paladins 'free' T5 sanctify is too powerful, you need to step back and evaluate what that means: you are saying "free sanctify is too good for clerics and paladins." That's a crazy statement in the context of Gemstone, and it turns the traditional role of sanctify on its head. I know, I know, they still get a free quasi-sanctify, but you and I both know that every paladin/cleric will want their weapon of choice to be full T5.
Now, you might say giving clerics/paladins free T5 Sanctify is too powerful. Too powerful? In a game with wizards in their current state? Sorry, that doesn't get any traction, if it is indeed the reason that caused the devs to drop this from the proposal.
Now to be clear, I am against this change turning undead from something with an obstacle to hunting into something easier to hunt. But if you (the devs) insist on doing it, please keep sanctify as something that clerics and paladins get 'automatically' when the weapon is in their hands. In the current proposal, a smart cleric would just bless vultite rather than use eonake.
>Eonake etc etc metals? What is going to make those special at this point?
-FALAN
>Here are some ideas that don't swing quite as far and preserve some uniqueness for white ora and eonake.
-PEREGRINEFALCON
>quality of life upgrade at the expense of taking away the uniqueness of the paladins and clerics being able to use eonake and white ora and being very good versus the undead (as they should be).
-FALAN
>In the current proposal, a smart cleric would just bless vultite rather than use eonake.
-ZENNSUNNI
I don't understand these concerns at all. I'd like to know if I'm missing something major, but right now I don't see it.
I checked the math and the +50 benefit to 330 when casting on holy metals will save me the cost of (2 fixskills + 2 Spellbound boost potions) if I just do T5s. If I bother with holy water flares, sanctified materials will instead save me (4 boost potions - 2 fixskills), where the potions are what I'd need if the +50 didn't exist.
For less high end items, this should still save people millions of silvers as they can get lower level clerics to work on their items. For example, vanilla +10 and +20 white ora and eonake weapons only have 47 and 96 difficulty respectively, reduced to 0 or 46 for the first cast of 330.
That seems pretty special to me. I've never been happier to have forged some perfect white ora weapons over the past several years and might even try to forge more with the slabs I have left.
If the argument's not about eonake and white ora per se, but more like the uniqueness of paladins and clerics and how these materials can now appeal to all professions, then that I'd at least understand, but:
A) that's not the vibe I'm getting out of people's posts (the middle two might imply it, but also might be implying something else)
B) the profession uniqueness issues run so much deeper than these blessing changes (...but I'll spare everyone my umpteenth monologue about the fuzzy lines between warriors, paladins, empaths, and clerics, and the fuzzy identities of all of them but warriors)
-FALAN
>Here are some ideas that don't swing quite as far and preserve some uniqueness for white ora and eonake.
-PEREGRINEFALCON
>quality of life upgrade at the expense of taking away the uniqueness of the paladins and clerics being able to use eonake and white ora and being very good versus the undead (as they should be).
-FALAN
>In the current proposal, a smart cleric would just bless vultite rather than use eonake.
-ZENNSUNNI
I don't understand these concerns at all. I'd like to know if I'm missing something major, but right now I don't see it.
I checked the math and the +50 benefit to 330 when casting on holy metals will save me the cost of (2 fixskills + 2 Spellbound boost potions) if I just do T5s. If I bother with holy water flares, sanctified materials will instead save me (4 boost potions - 2 fixskills), where the potions are what I'd need if the +50 didn't exist.
For less high end items, this should still save people millions of silvers as they can get lower level clerics to work on their items. For example, vanilla +10 and +20 white ora and eonake weapons only have 47 and 96 difficulty respectively, reduced to 0 or 46 for the first cast of 330.
That seems pretty special to me. I've never been happier to have forged some perfect white ora weapons over the past several years and might even try to forge more with the slabs I have left.
If the argument's not about eonake and white ora per se, but more like the uniqueness of paladins and clerics and how these materials can now appeal to all professions, then that I'd at least understand, but:
A) that's not the vibe I'm getting out of people's posts (the middle two might imply it, but also might be implying something else)
B) the profession uniqueness issues run so much deeper than these blessing changes (...but I'll spare everyone my umpteenth monologue about the fuzzy lines between warriors, paladins, empaths, and clerics, and the fuzzy identities of all of them but warriors)
So.... your solution is to take the proposal from a slight QOL improvement to a to royal pain for anyone that's not a cleric/paladin to hunt undead?
And yet you and Estild;s solution is to destroy the paladin? The QOL is not a slight improvement. It is a train wreck that destroys the whole point of being a paladin. The QOL more or less makes everybody a paladin by just giving them the ability to be a lot more effective at conquering the undead than living.
This is why I would rather NOTHING gets changed and it stays as is since it is a not that much of a pain to get a bless.
__________________________
- Kobold in Disguise Falvicar, Blade of the Night
You swing a silver-edged black veil iron katana at Sevynne!
* Sevynne drops dead at your feet!
* Sevynne just bit the dust!
Just add a sixth tier and have white ora and eonake be naturally +1, but only in the hands of a palacleric. Maybe they start at T1, but they can be sancted up to T6. That way the service would be of value for them, too. And perhaps paladins have feats or weapon techniques that can only be done with white ora or eonake, or having a T6 + 1625 adds special tricks to them.
Going forward I had some thoughts...
1) Eonake... It seems like we are now retconning Eonake. The last few lines under the description state... "This lends credence to the folklore that this very rare metal was used against the Ur-Daemons themselves. It is absolutely devastating to undead beings, often said to burn them greatly on occasion." I'm not sure how "absolute" that devastation really is... as it's a bit more trivialized and equal to pretty much anything else that's sanctified. I want to say that when Eonake was first released, it came with fire flares but I could be wrong... To me, it appears we have trivialized Eonake (a supposedly extremely rare material) vs White Ora.
2) How would undead banes be treated going forward? Are they subjected to the rule of 5's? (if you only have a T2 sanctification is your standard undead bane/any undead bane going forward subjected to the 15% penalty), or added to the final tally at the end. Either way, how does that square when the bane itself is flares? Are they reduced? If so how? In potency, or flare rate? If so, why would I spend all that money to sanctify equipment when I can just Bless my equipment, and bypass the sanctification system completely.
Just some things to mull over...
-Khaell
1) Eonake... It seems like we are now retconning Eonake. The last few lines under the description state... "This lends credence to the folklore that this very rare metal was used against the Ur-Daemons themselves. It is absolutely devastating to undead beings, often said to burn them greatly on occasion." I'm not sure how "absolute" that devastation really is... as it's a bit more trivialized and equal to pretty much anything else that's sanctified. I want to say that when Eonake was first released, it came with fire flares but I could be wrong... To me, it appears we have trivialized Eonake (a supposedly extremely rare material) vs White Ora.
2) How would undead banes be treated going forward? Are they subjected to the rule of 5's? (if you only have a T2 sanctification is your standard undead bane/any undead bane going forward subjected to the 15% penalty), or added to the final tally at the end. Either way, how does that square when the bane itself is flares? Are they reduced? If so how? In potency, or flare rate? If so, why would I spend all that money to sanctify equipment when I can just Bless my equipment, and bypass the sanctification system completely.
Just some things to mull over...
-Khaell
Thought crossed my mind as I was traveling today, but a great Quality of Life improvement would be to "rebless" a weapon. For example running through reim with a blessed weapon you do not want the bless to expire during the engagement with the emperor and empress so you bless your weapon(s) again which just "reblesses" the weapon. Either that or a way to force the bless expiration to allow for the similar end result. This change would be a huge QoL update to go along with the proposal.
Well, this discussion blew up on Discord after Estild started a thread. I ran back through it and jotted down notes for myself, but once I had them already, I figured I'd put them here for those who don't keep up with Discord.
Fair warning that it's long since it's covering probably thousands of messages. It started with this:
And I've summarized a lot of the responses (though there are probably more that I missed) here:
https://pastebin.com/v3KnViVg
Fair warning that it's long since it's covering probably thousands of messages. It started with this:
| Estild — 07/29/2021 |
| One last concern I have with update is spell bots. We're currently planning to allow every weapon to be temporarily blessed, but with that, I'm not a fan of trivializing it with spell not that uses 1604 + 304 script to grant something like 1,300 swings. Ideas? |
| Estild — 07/29/2021 |
| [...] No issue if the cleric is in your group and hunting with you, but don't want to diminish active clerics vs. spell bots. |
And I've summarized a lot of the responses (though there are probably more that I missed) here:
https://pastebin.com/v3KnViVg
There are a lot of good ideas here.
After reading through this, I would state the problem differently. This isn't really about bots, no more than how they impact the rest of the game. However, hunting without sanctify must be less convenient than it is now if the service is to be of any real value. (Consider that less convenient and more difficult aren't always the same thing.) To take away a small thing from clerics and give them back a big thing is easy and reasonable. To take something away from everyone else who depends on a blessed weapon to hunt likely is complicated.
I'd change 1604 to something else. There are some good ideas in this list for 1604, too. Cap the number of blesses for 304 at a lower number, really something like 300 swings. I understand this is a monstrous and unpopular suggestion, but people who don't want to deal with it will carry multiple regular weapons out. People who want to use their cooler weapons will get them sanctified, or locate a cleric to join them. It would be nice if the cleric wasn't a bot, but there's no good way to govern that. It is a nerf but it will give bless more parity with Voln bless and make having a cleric around really useful, besides just for raising the dead. And it will make the T1 sanctify much more valuable.
After reading through this, I would state the problem differently. This isn't really about bots, no more than how they impact the rest of the game. However, hunting without sanctify must be less convenient than it is now if the service is to be of any real value. (Consider that less convenient and more difficult aren't always the same thing.) To take away a small thing from clerics and give them back a big thing is easy and reasonable. To take something away from everyone else who depends on a blessed weapon to hunt likely is complicated.
I'd change 1604 to something else. There are some good ideas in this list for 1604, too. Cap the number of blesses for 304 at a lower number, really something like 300 swings. I understand this is a monstrous and unpopular suggestion, but people who don't want to deal with it will carry multiple regular weapons out. People who want to use their cooler weapons will get them sanctified, or locate a cleric to join them. It would be nice if the cleric wasn't a bot, but there's no good way to govern that. It is a nerf but it will give bless more parity with Voln bless and make having a cleric around really useful, besides just for raising the dead. And it will make the T1 sanctify much more valuable.
Falvicar, that mind set is not good. If you chose to play a paladin simply to circumvent annoying mechanics that seems a poor choice to base a character on.
| As I gaze over the horizon, the wind tugs at my cloak and whispers, "Adventure" in my ear. |
| A squeaky halfling nearby asks, "Why you playing with orcs heads and troll rearends?!" |
Combo spells require at least one of the casters to be IN the group.
Paladin + Cleric == gobs of swings, leave town... not so much.
One of them is a pet but the other travels with the weapon, fine.
Also, all mass-spells should be like Bard, Paladin, Cleric are tending: no caster, no benefit.
Also, most buffs should be self-cast. Want to use them, train the skills to use Items or read Scrolls.
Paladin + Cleric == gobs of swings, leave town... not so much.
One of them is a pet but the other travels with the weapon, fine.
Also, all mass-spells should be like Bard, Paladin, Cleric are tending: no caster, no benefit.
Also, most buffs should be self-cast. Want to use them, train the skills to use Items or read Scrolls.
Some followups since I last posted, notably with Estild updating on where considerations stand at the moment: https://pastebin.com/XNLd6RTs
I'll leave it there for now and probably give it some days to not just spam up the forum, but that's where we're at.
| Estild — Today at 3:03 PM |
| Thanks for the suggestions so far. These are definitely moving the discussion forward. |
I'll leave it there for now and probably give it some days to not just spam up the forum, but that's where we're at.
| Estild — Today at 2:43 PM [up to 2:54 PM] |
| Let me be clear: if you don't think botting is a problem in the game, you can continue to believe that. But I can literally almost always find a spell bot in the game at any given time. If you want to shape the discussion and design of the spell, offer solutions to the problem. You're not going to convince me that spell bots (or even exclusively cleric spell bots) don't exist. They absolutely do. |
| Any future buff spells will almost assuredly require the caster to be in the group to maintain due to the issue. |
| But to guide the discussion, we don't really plan to down tweak existing 304, but I am apprehensive about any up tweaks to it given the concern I stated. Offer solutions to that instead of outright denial. |
| 1300 swings isn't a problem. Spell bots are. |
| 1300 swings from your group cleric member is awesome. 1300 swings from a cleric who sits at a table and offers it to anyone is a clear difference. |
| It very well could be that all the enhancements to 304 are reserved if the cleric who blesses your armament is in your group and otherwise, the spell continues to work like it does now. I hate to do that, but I also refuse to buff spell bots more. |
I don't see the problem.
You hunt with a cleric, he blesses you as they wear off.
You don't hunt with a cleric so you run to town/voln/wherever you can meet up and a cleric blesses your weapon as you need.
Clearly, either option is exactly how it was before. What the hell is a spell bot going to do here that's any different than how things are now?
You seem to be making a big deal out of a molehill.
The problem you created is not how 304 functions, but how you plan on changing combat with undead. Go back to the drawing board with what 330 will do and how combat will go forward with undead if you feel 304 is somehow going to be overpowered.
I'll just keep doing what I've been doing and no change to how melee weapons can hit undead will deter my methods: If I swing weapons I avoid undead. If I cast spells, I don't care if it's undead or not. If I really want to hunt undead, I'll log in with my TWC paladin that swings two eonake weapons and casts 1604 on them to get flares.
<But I can literally almost always find a spell bot in the game at any given time.>
Ok, this has me wondering exactly what's being meant by the term "spell bot". If it's "a character that's scripted to cast spells on someone when another activates a trigger" (as I assumed) and they can be identified as easily/are as common as that comment suggests, it makes me wonder why they have a TOS at all.... doesn't sound like anyone is doing anything to enforce it other then design systems to be a bigger PITA then they need to be for everyone that plays by the rules. Might as well install lich and run bigshot while I'm at work, I'll meet my goal of capping a character by the end of the year for sure that way.
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
Ok, this has me wondering exactly what's being meant by the term "spell bot". If it's "a character that's scripted to cast spells on someone when another activates a trigger" (as I assumed) and they can be identified as easily/are as common as that comment suggests, it makes me wonder why they have a TOS at all.... doesn't sound like anyone is doing anything to enforce it other then design systems to be a bigger PITA then they need to be for everyone that plays by the rules. Might as well install lich and run bigshot while I'm at work, I'll meet my goal of capping a character by the end of the year for sure that way.
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
I understand the issue with spell bots, but the invoker has been running as a game-sanctioned spell bot in the Landing for months now. The critical reasons for it are now gone, and it continues to set a bad example. Also, Dreavenings were not really addressed in a way that matches game policy. Even if it is a semi-social event that many players like, this is clearly still spell botting. And I don't particularly care if policy goes one way or the other, but I think most players are aware of this.
Making 304 group-only doesn't seem like a very good solution, unless the goal is to eventually get all buff spells as group-only spells. Just reduce the number of swings low enough to give people a reason to want 330, and to make spell botting less useful.
Making 304 group-only doesn't seem like a very good solution, unless the goal is to eventually get all buff spells as group-only spells. Just reduce the number of swings low enough to give people a reason to want 330, and to make spell botting less useful.
I hate any move to make grouping even stronger. All it ultimately does is promote more MAing. I used to be all for group incentives, but turns out they're not effective from what I've seen. I'd rather just move everything to self-cast only rather than add more buffs to grouping (which is already great enough as it is).
But really, I'd much rather make everyone have a separate (exp-linked) resource pool for casting any beneficial spell on others. This would promote active characters, but not limit their ability to contribute to an active community to only hunting together.
But really, I'd much rather make everyone have a separate (exp-linked) resource pool for casting any beneficial spell on others. This would promote active characters, but not limit their ability to contribute to an active community to only hunting together.
(Spell-bot discussion has little to do with Bless proposal directly, but it's a good discussion.)
I still like my own suggestion of allowing someone to USE UP one of their own "mana spellup" uses for the day in order to create a pill for someone ELSE to make use of.
Get the pill from a 49th level Cleric with 25 minor/40 major/45 Cleric, and eat it? Boom! Spells (and durations) as though you were built like that and did a 'mana spellup' (valid only for spells that can be other-cast, non-refundable, recyclable only in certain states).
OH LOOK! The store even already sells items specifically made to encompass a 'mana spellup'. Take one of those. Put your spell-icious magic juicee into it. Allow someone else to make use of it. Spells.
I still like my own suggestion of allowing someone to USE UP one of their own "mana spellup" uses for the day in order to create a pill for someone ELSE to make use of.
Get the pill from a 49th level Cleric with 25 minor/40 major/45 Cleric, and eat it? Boom! Spells (and durations) as though you were built like that and did a 'mana spellup' (valid only for spells that can be other-cast, non-refundable, recyclable only in certain states).
OH LOOK! The store even already sells items specifically made to encompass a 'mana spellup'. Take one of those. Put your spell-icious magic juicee into it. Allow someone else to make use of it. Spells.
<The problem you created is not how 304 functions, but how you plan on changing combat with undead. Go back to the drawing board with what 330 will do and how combat will go forward with undead if you feel 304 is somehow going to be overpowered.>
This exactly!
Why does everything have to be more convenient and have fewer consequences? Somethings should be difficult based on your build choices. I made plans years ago go have certain characters go voln with blessing abilities (since rubbing the griffin sword went away) and they do a lot of undead hunting and others don't hunt undead much because of the inconvenience.
--Regwen
A silver glow surrounds Regwen briefly.
Lheren says, "The Lord of Night has heard you, it seems."
This exactly!
Why does everything have to be more convenient and have fewer consequences? Somethings should be difficult based on your build choices. I made plans years ago go have certain characters go voln with blessing abilities (since rubbing the griffin sword went away) and they do a lot of undead hunting and others don't hunt undead much because of the inconvenience.
--Regwen
A silver glow surrounds Regwen briefly.
Lheren says, "The Lord of Night has heard you, it seems."
I still dont understand this huge concern in regard to 304 when hunting undead is trivial for all pures and even semis have better toolkits for dealing with them. When playing my wizard, sorcerer, cleric, empath, paladin, or bard its not a concern in the slightest but if i play a monk or rogue or warrior i have to make some decisions. Its not meaningful choice if it only impacts a small percentage of the playerbase.
With psm finally done this bless review is the other piece to finally bring squares up to par with pures.
With psm finally done this bless review is the other piece to finally bring squares up to par with pures.
| As I gaze over the horizon, the wind tugs at my cloak and whispers, "Adventure" in my ear. |
| A squeaky halfling nearby asks, "Why you playing with orcs heads and troll rearends?!" |
With regards to Ironwight/LUB, if the proposed changes go through, will the bless component still be required for them to function? Or will the flares now function against undead without the requirement for a bless? i.e. Is the bless required for the "logic" to work regardless of the proposed bless system changes.
The bless design proposal available at https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dHwFm8BQidYis6DwsLSR2Ue3CkzXjHOaFh_PObdJQJc/edit# has been updated for 09/17/2021.
