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Would it be possible to bring health levels of bandits more in line with the race the are?
I just killed a gnome bandit with my level 28 warrior.
I stunned the gnome from the initial attack, hit him in the head for 22 damage.
Second attack removed a limb and did 96 health.
Third attack did 111 damage and put a massive hole in his stomach.
Fourth attack did 89 damage and took another limb.
The gnome still didn't die after losing 318 health.
Next and final attack killed him.
A forest gnome bandit had at least 319 health....
Forest gnomes have a max health of 135 and even if the gnome had 3 ranks of Combat Toughness (35 extra health), that's still only 170 health, yet he had close to double that.
If the gnome was a giantman or half-krolvin it would be a bit more believable that the bandit could have taken 318 health loss and not died.
>>Being a "critter" doubles hit points. This results in jarring results when character races are used as critters, but its the way the game is scaled. Maybe 50% redux would be better than 2x hits for character race critters.
Perhaps some NIR should update the wiki in the appropriate spot to document said doubling. That would, perhaps, cut down on the confusion.
Perhaps some NIR should update the wiki in the appropriate spot to document said doubling. That would, perhaps, cut down on the confusion.
>Being a "critter" doubles hit points. This results in jarring results when character races are used as critters, but its the way the game is scaled. Maybe 50% redux would be better than 2x hits for character race critters.
But they're not critters. They're playable races. I give creatures the benefit of the doubt about heaving more health because they're creatures. But when a gnome jumps out and you pummel him/her for 300+ health damage before they die, that's just stupid.
I don't have an issue if the bandits were given a slight health boost over players, but 2x+ is a bit much. Bandits are already a pain in the butt with the cheap "trap" mechanics and the fact you can run into 3 or 4 at a time....one gets you stunned (or a stupid trap stuns you or puts you prone) you're goose is cooked with the hefty penalty that SMR tacks on when the others are doing CMANs.
But they're not critters. They're playable races. I give creatures the benefit of the doubt about heaving more health because they're creatures. But when a gnome jumps out and you pummel him/her for 300+ health damage before they die, that's just stupid.
I don't have an issue if the bandits were given a slight health boost over players, but 2x+ is a bit much. Bandits are already a pain in the butt with the cheap "trap" mechanics and the fact you can run into 3 or 4 at a time....one gets you stunned (or a stupid trap stuns you or puts you prone) you're goose is cooked with the hefty penalty that SMR tacks on when the others are doing CMANs.
>>But they're not critters. They're playable races. I give creatures the benefit of the doubt about heaving more health because they're creatures. But when a gnome jumps out and you pummel him/her for 300+ health damage before they die, that's just stupid.
While bandits can be challenging for certain builds at certain levels, they are by far one of the most convenient and easiest things for the majority of the game to hunt, if not the easiest. They are crittable, generally low defense, and don't tend to have any instant kill abilities. Your root complaint isn't even that they're difficult, but that they survive too long.
They aren't going to get easier.
Viduus
While bandits can be challenging for certain builds at certain levels, they are by far one of the most convenient and easiest things for the majority of the game to hunt, if not the easiest. They are crittable, generally low defense, and don't tend to have any instant kill abilities. Your root complaint isn't even that they're difficult, but that they survive too long.
They aren't going to get easier.
Viduus
<While bandits can be challenging for certain builds at certain levels, they are by far one of the most convenient and easiest things for the majority of the game to hunt, if not the easiest.>
That is complete bunk.
The traps, tendency to stick to the shadows, and ambushing more then makes up for the things you listed to put players in more danger hunting them then most pre-cap hunting grounds.
I don't really care about their health levels, though.
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
That is complete bunk.
The traps, tendency to stick to the shadows, and ambushing more then makes up for the things you listed to put players in more danger hunting them then most pre-cap hunting grounds.
I don't really care about their health levels, though.
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
| While bandits can be challenging for certain builds at certain levels, they are by far one of the most convenient and easiest things for the majority of the game to hunt, if not the easiest. They are crittable, generally low defense, and don't tend to have any instant kill abilities. Your root complaint isn't even that they're difficult, but that they survive too long. |
| They aren't going to get easier. |
| Viduus |
Gonna have to agree to disagree with your opinion. They are not convenient nor are they the easiest things to deal with in the game. I don't have much issue with you stating that they aren't going to get easier since like Reim I tend to avoid having much to do with bandits over all. Bandits like Reim showed me that if you are a character who uses a polearm or two hander, that no matter how many spells I can get I can die in defensive/guarded. So I only will do either with a ohe/shield using character or staff using character. I've not checked how my monk will do versus either, I'll have to get back to you on that one.
Of course maybe your perspective is from cap/post cap game design, which does appear to be the norm for many in GS these days. If so then I can't speak to that, I'll simply say that limiting game design choices to cap+ focus only is an error.(If that is the case) Just as much as it is a problem for GMs not to actually go out and play classes, training paths at various levels and societies etc more often to keep in touch of what it's like to actually hunt in the game. I will say this, there has been some truly great improvements, mechanics changes and additions to the game in recent years. More so than in any point in time. More so than the deICEing, the migration to the web, the move from GSIII to IV etc. So while I'm being critical of your remarks above, I do want to recognize that over all Gemstone is the best version of Gemstone that's ever existed in the last thirty years, in my opinion.*
Jim
*(Well, thirty years for me next year but close enough.)
>> I refuse to deal with bandits because I basically always die to them.
They are build dependent but if you have a build than can survive their initial onslaught they are, in fact, very convenient and easy. At least for post-cap characters. When my wife and I want to do something 'quick and easy' for hunting we tend to hop on and do a round of Krakens Fall bandits - you get this bounty 100% of the time and there is virtually no risk of death for the characters we choose to hunt them with. Done in under 15 minutes (generally even less).
-- Robert
From the pitch of the vibration you determine that the purpose of the shield is as a shield.
They are build dependent but if you have a build than can survive their initial onslaught they are, in fact, very convenient and easy. At least for post-cap characters. When my wife and I want to do something 'quick and easy' for hunting we tend to hop on and do a round of Krakens Fall bandits - you get this bounty 100% of the time and there is virtually no risk of death for the characters we choose to hunt them with. Done in under 15 minutes (generally even less).
-- Robert
From the pitch of the vibration you determine that the purpose of the shield is as a shield.
>>Bandits like Reim showed me that if you are a character who uses a polearm or two hander, that no matter how many spells I can get I can die in defensive/guarded
Early on, a good shield will beat THW defense due to enchant bonuses, but there's a point at which they even out and with some builds a THW build can pull ahead.
On bandits, I realize your (generic you) mileage will vary, and difficulty can be subjective, so here's my reasoning on it.
Bandits are generally at their deadliest at their lowest gen levels. Players are usually just relying on AS/DS and CS/TD resolutions for combat at that point, it's GS combat at it's simplest. You're pretty much comparing the difficulty of a group of bandits and their traps to a solo zombie. Skip ahead a bit and you're in the next level of combat which starts mixing in deadly maneuvers and disablers and the bandits are still showing up with the same old bag of tricks.
Take a roa'ter as an example. Both bandits and roa'ters can be hidden so that they get the first attack. With a bandit you're looking at a snare, bind, anti-magic crystal, or regular ambush. All of which are non-lethal, it's generally the followup attacks that end you. Although an anti-magic crystal can wreck a caster, and a bind snare can wreck most people's day, most people do get a small window to turn it around. With a roa'ter, you're looking at a burrow which can disable AND kill. You can't generally salvage a hunt if you're dead.
At this point your simple combat options are starting to dry up. By 50ish you're facing boil earth, condemn, stone hand, and outright deadly cmans. This is on top of more severe and common disablers, like multi-dispel, web, and bind. Meanwhile bandits are still using their same old bag of tricks, and player skills have improved enough to offset them. Magic users are getting mana spellups, certain classes are are getting MO to offset FoF pushdown, perception for traps and ambush, and everyone is gaining defense to offset being disabled.
While it may not feel like it, the halfway point to hit cap is ~level 63, and a decent section of the active player population has spent more time in post-cap than precap. By the halfway point bandits are usually a much safer option for a lot of the population. You're only looking at a window of about 2million experience for bandits to be at the top of the food chain in combat tools, and another 5+ where they're comparable or easier than other like-level options. So, that's my context for making this statement: "they are by far one of the most convenient and easiest things for the majority of the game to hunt, if not the easiest."
One last note on this thread. The OP took issue with having to do 300+ damage on a bandit, but the actual health was most likely 230. Which means the last attack of the sequence only really did 1 point of worthwhile damage. It was mostly bad luck that the previous attacks fell 1 point shy of death, but the fight was really over on his first attack. "I stunned the gnome from the initial attack, hit him in the head for 22 damage."
Viduus
Early on, a good shield will beat THW defense due to enchant bonuses, but there's a point at which they even out and with some builds a THW build can pull ahead.
On bandits, I realize your (generic you) mileage will vary, and difficulty can be subjective, so here's my reasoning on it.
Bandits are generally at their deadliest at their lowest gen levels. Players are usually just relying on AS/DS and CS/TD resolutions for combat at that point, it's GS combat at it's simplest. You're pretty much comparing the difficulty of a group of bandits and their traps to a solo zombie. Skip ahead a bit and you're in the next level of combat which starts mixing in deadly maneuvers and disablers and the bandits are still showing up with the same old bag of tricks.
Take a roa'ter as an example. Both bandits and roa'ters can be hidden so that they get the first attack. With a bandit you're looking at a snare, bind, anti-magic crystal, or regular ambush. All of which are non-lethal, it's generally the followup attacks that end you. Although an anti-magic crystal can wreck a caster, and a bind snare can wreck most people's day, most people do get a small window to turn it around. With a roa'ter, you're looking at a burrow which can disable AND kill. You can't generally salvage a hunt if you're dead.
At this point your simple combat options are starting to dry up. By 50ish you're facing boil earth, condemn, stone hand, and outright deadly cmans. This is on top of more severe and common disablers, like multi-dispel, web, and bind. Meanwhile bandits are still using their same old bag of tricks, and player skills have improved enough to offset them. Magic users are getting mana spellups, certain classes are are getting MO to offset FoF pushdown, perception for traps and ambush, and everyone is gaining defense to offset being disabled.
While it may not feel like it, the halfway point to hit cap is ~level 63, and a decent section of the active player population has spent more time in post-cap than precap. By the halfway point bandits are usually a much safer option for a lot of the population. You're only looking at a window of about 2million experience for bandits to be at the top of the food chain in combat tools, and another 5+ where they're comparable or easier than other like-level options. So, that's my context for making this statement: "they are by far one of the most convenient and easiest things for the majority of the game to hunt, if not the easiest."
One last note on this thread. The OP took issue with having to do 300+ damage on a bandit, but the actual health was most likely 230. Which means the last attack of the sequence only really did 1 point of worthwhile damage. It was mostly bad luck that the previous attacks fell 1 point shy of death, but the fight was really over on his first attack. "I stunned the gnome from the initial attack, hit him in the head for 22 damage."
Viduus
I will simply point out that the character is encountering an ambush. Terms like 'convenient' I am truly struggling to understand in that context. If you mean 'convenient for me, the player', I don't believe I have anything to add.
What surprises me most, though, is the (unspoken?) belief that a character should be immune from an encounter with 4 to 6 opening attacks designed to disable by and large, in a highly differing number of configurations. . .
Solo.
Get your team on and go kick bandit butt. Robert's way wins (this time).
Report scaling problems.
Doug
What surprises me most, though, is the (unspoken?) belief that a character should be immune from an encounter with 4 to 6 opening attacks designed to disable by and large, in a highly differing number of configurations. . .
Solo.
Get your team on and go kick bandit butt. Robert's way wins (this time).
Report scaling problems.
Doug
>>Report scaling problems.
>>Doug
I meant to mention this in my last wall of text. If memory serves, those early level bandits tend to have the same breadth of tools, but severity of results tend to be reduced compared to higher levels. If you feel something is over tweaked or needs a second look you can always bring it up for discussion. The answer may be no, but it's always worthwhile to vocalize concerns.
Also, players tend to think long standing bugs/"features" are common knowledge. That can be a bad assumption.
Viduus
>>Doug
I meant to mention this in my last wall of text. If memory serves, those early level bandits tend to have the same breadth of tools, but severity of results tend to be reduced compared to higher levels. If you feel something is over tweaked or needs a second look you can always bring it up for discussion. The answer may be no, but it's always worthwhile to vocalize concerns.
Also, players tend to think long standing bugs/"features" are common knowledge. That can be a bad assumption.
Viduus
<Viduus's context>
Doesn't match my experience with them nor does it change my opinion
<Get your team on and go kick bandit butt.>
Anything I have to group up with others to hunt is, by definition, inconvenient. By the time I've found others to go with, waited for them to get to the invoker/Dreavening, take care of whatever else loose ends they have, and actually started out to the location, I could have gone on at least two normal hunts almost anywhere in the lands.
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
Doesn't match my experience with them nor does it change my opinion
<Get your team on and go kick bandit butt.>
Anything I have to group up with others to hunt is, by definition, inconvenient. By the time I've found others to go with, waited for them to get to the invoker/Dreavening, take care of whatever else loose ends they have, and actually started out to the location, I could have gone on at least two normal hunts almost anywhere in the lands.
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
>> <Get your team on and go kick bandit butt.>
>> Anything I have to group up with others to hunt is, by definition, inconvenient.
I used my wife and I as an example but I also hunt post cap bandits solo with my paladin and wizard. NO GROUP REQUIRED. They are great for grinding out weekly essence on my wizard and they are just plain quick and easy pickings for my paladin when he isn't out sailing his ship. My wife plays less frequently than I do and when she wants to hop in and do something quick we also do the post cap bandits.
All that said - I generally avoid bandits with a lot of my lower level characters in favor of other hunting options.
-- Robert
From the pitch of the vibration you determine that the purpose of the shield is as a shield.
>> Anything I have to group up with others to hunt is, by definition, inconvenient.
I used my wife and I as an example but I also hunt post cap bandits solo with my paladin and wizard. NO GROUP REQUIRED. They are great for grinding out weekly essence on my wizard and they are just plain quick and easy pickings for my paladin when he isn't out sailing his ship. My wife plays less frequently than I do and when she wants to hop in and do something quick we also do the post cap bandits.
All that said - I generally avoid bandits with a lot of my lower level characters in favor of other hunting options.
-- Robert
From the pitch of the vibration you determine that the purpose of the shield is as a shield.
>While bandits can be challenging for certain builds at certain levels, they are by far one of the most convenient and easiest things for the majority of the game to hunt, if not the easiest. They are crittable, generally low defense, and don't tend to have any instant kill abilities. Your root complaint isn't even that they're difficult, but that they survive too long.
PSM3 changes to building up extra penalties and tanking of SMR defense made bandit hunting for any of my characters that's not a warrior a pain in the butt.
I've had difficult hunting bandits solo with a wizard and bard so I haven't even tried other semi/pure classes. Granted I only tried the bard a few times and he's in his low 30s, but each time resulted in the first encounter either being dead or having to run away to town because he got the crap kicked out of him on the initial encounter and he didn't even get a chance to fight back.
Wizards, well, I've tried a few times with a pure build over the course of 50+ levels and they all result the same. If he's not dead from the initial encounter, he can't stay to fight because his throat has been slit or head wound or arm wound prevents him from casting....it's just run to town (if not already dead), get healed, go back out....if not dead on the next encounter from the ambushes and CMANs, run to town to heal....repeat ad nauseum.
I've had a little success with bandits with my reduxmage. He's by no means any kind of normal when it comes to his build. He's in +5 CER crit padded studded leather, he has access to 520 (only knows 20 ranks of MjE) so that gives an additional +5 CER crit padding. His armor also has +4 or 5 CER damage padding. With his enhancives his health is just shy of 200 and his redux, with all enhancives (including holding his weapon and shield) is 15%. He can take a moderate hit without too much worry and he can take multiple moderate hits without usually needing to retreat, he can usually stay in the fight still and hold his own. He's full 1x in CM, PF and Perception, yet his SMR defense sucks like all other pures even though he's fully trained in CM (he even has all 5 ranks of Cunning Defense). I've had some success doing bandits with him, but it takes longer. After a couple encounters he tends to become too wounded to continue and has to leave to heal, then there are times after the first encounter he's got the same issues as a normal pure, dead after initial contact or too wounded to actually fight back. By no means are bandits simple for my wizards.
Warriors, at least up to level 35, in my experience have the easiest times. They're usually in chain armor by then, have 25+% redux, know berserk for the odd times they get stunned for long durations and have the best SMR defense.
That upwards of 15 lost points of SMR defense from the PSM3 changes really hurt my pures and that's the same time it became a lot more difficult for my reduxmage to solo bandits. He was getting beat to a pulp on that first encounter a lot easier and he was almost always running way to mend wounds. It's not worth the time for him to hunt them.....
>One last note on this thread. The OP took issue with having to do 300+ damage on a bandit, but the actual health was most likely 230. Which means the last attack of the sequence only really did 1 point of worthwhile damage. It was mostly bad luck that the previous attacks fell 1 point shy of death, but the fight was really over on his first attack. "I stunned the gnome from the initial attack, hit him in the head for 22 damage.
I don't know how his health was more like 230. Do the math. They were consecutive swings on the same bandit. No time gaps. Unless they have massive health regeneration over the course of 20 seconds....
Hits took off 22 + 96 + 111 + 89 health....adds to 319.
It's not the only gnome bandit that's had 300+ health I've come across. I just find it overwhelmingly tedious.
PSM3 changes to building up extra penalties and tanking of SMR defense made bandit hunting for any of my characters that's not a warrior a pain in the butt.
I've had difficult hunting bandits solo with a wizard and bard so I haven't even tried other semi/pure classes. Granted I only tried the bard a few times and he's in his low 30s, but each time resulted in the first encounter either being dead or having to run away to town because he got the crap kicked out of him on the initial encounter and he didn't even get a chance to fight back.
Wizards, well, I've tried a few times with a pure build over the course of 50+ levels and they all result the same. If he's not dead from the initial encounter, he can't stay to fight because his throat has been slit or head wound or arm wound prevents him from casting....it's just run to town (if not already dead), get healed, go back out....if not dead on the next encounter from the ambushes and CMANs, run to town to heal....repeat ad nauseum.
I've had a little success with bandits with my reduxmage. He's by no means any kind of normal when it comes to his build. He's in +5 CER crit padded studded leather, he has access to 520 (only knows 20 ranks of MjE) so that gives an additional +5 CER crit padding. His armor also has +4 or 5 CER damage padding. With his enhancives his health is just shy of 200 and his redux, with all enhancives (including holding his weapon and shield) is 15%. He can take a moderate hit without too much worry and he can take multiple moderate hits without usually needing to retreat, he can usually stay in the fight still and hold his own. He's full 1x in CM, PF and Perception, yet his SMR defense sucks like all other pures even though he's fully trained in CM (he even has all 5 ranks of Cunning Defense). I've had some success doing bandits with him, but it takes longer. After a couple encounters he tends to become too wounded to continue and has to leave to heal, then there are times after the first encounter he's got the same issues as a normal pure, dead after initial contact or too wounded to actually fight back. By no means are bandits simple for my wizards.
Warriors, at least up to level 35, in my experience have the easiest times. They're usually in chain armor by then, have 25+% redux, know berserk for the odd times they get stunned for long durations and have the best SMR defense.
That upwards of 15 lost points of SMR defense from the PSM3 changes really hurt my pures and that's the same time it became a lot more difficult for my reduxmage to solo bandits. He was getting beat to a pulp on that first encounter a lot easier and he was almost always running way to mend wounds. It's not worth the time for him to hunt them.....
>One last note on this thread. The OP took issue with having to do 300+ damage on a bandit, but the actual health was most likely 230. Which means the last attack of the sequence only really did 1 point of worthwhile damage. It was mostly bad luck that the previous attacks fell 1 point shy of death, but the fight was really over on his first attack. "I stunned the gnome from the initial attack, hit him in the head for 22 damage.
I don't know how his health was more like 230. Do the math. They were consecutive swings on the same bandit. No time gaps. Unless they have massive health regeneration over the course of 20 seconds....
Hits took off 22 + 96 + 111 + 89 health....adds to 319.
It's not the only gnome bandit that's had 300+ health I've come across. I just find it overwhelmingly tedious.
>> I don't know how his health was more like 230. Do the math. They were consecutive swings on the same bandit. No time gaps. Unless they have massive health regeneration over the course of 20 seconds....
>> Hits took off 22 + 96 + 111 + 89 health....adds to 319.
Mathing it out:
Starting Health: 230
Hit for 22, Remaining Health: 209
Hit for 96, Remaining Health: 113
Hit for 111, Remaining Health: 1
Hit for 89, Now dead
You can't add all of the damage from the last hit to the starting health. It will be anywhere between 1 and the amount of damage done-ish.
-- Robert
From the pitch of the vibration you determine that the purpose of the shield is as a shield.
>> Hits took off 22 + 96 + 111 + 89 health....adds to 319.
Mathing it out:
Starting Health: 230
Hit for 22, Remaining Health: 209
Hit for 96, Remaining Health: 113
Hit for 111, Remaining Health: 1
Hit for 89, Now dead
You can't add all of the damage from the last hit to the starting health. It will be anywhere between 1 and the amount of damage done-ish.
-- Robert
From the pitch of the vibration you determine that the purpose of the shield is as a shield.
>> He wasn't dead on that hit for 89 health. He was still alive.
Thanks for clarifying! Then I agree with your point! :-) Sounds like he had at least 320.
That said - I don't find it terribly immersion shattering to have NPC character races with more health than their PC equivalents can attain. There are lots of RP ways in which this can be explained with a little imagination. I definitely agree with the NIR perspective (at least generally) that bandits are already one of the more convenient and easier things to hunt (at least post cap) so wouldn't really expect a reduction here.
-- Robert
From the pitch of the vibration you determine that the purpose of the shield is as a shield.
Thanks for clarifying! Then I agree with your point! :-) Sounds like he had at least 320.
That said - I don't find it terribly immersion shattering to have NPC character races with more health than their PC equivalents can attain. There are lots of RP ways in which this can be explained with a little imagination. I definitely agree with the NIR perspective (at least generally) that bandits are already one of the more convenient and easier things to hunt (at least post cap) so wouldn't really expect a reduction here.
-- Robert
From the pitch of the vibration you determine that the purpose of the shield is as a shield.
>>Doesn't match my experience with them nor does it change my opinion
I've found in my life that when faced with a discussion of differing views that presenting my facts and reasoning is generally a good way to explain to the other side how I have arrived at the conclusions I've made on topics. Doing so generally allows the opposition insight into why I think the way I do. It allows them to point out any flaws in my reasoning, and even if we ultimately disagree we're a step closer to understanding where the other person is coming from. So long writeups are generally intended to contribute towards that goal.
Of course, I think we can all agree that a firmly stated opinion always trumps logic and reason. I also think it's safe to say that my explanation writeups aren't intended for an audience holding that particular trump card.
Viduus
I've found in my life that when faced with a discussion of differing views that presenting my facts and reasoning is generally a good way to explain to the other side how I have arrived at the conclusions I've made on topics. Doing so generally allows the opposition insight into why I think the way I do. It allows them to point out any flaws in my reasoning, and even if we ultimately disagree we're a step closer to understanding where the other person is coming from. So long writeups are generally intended to contribute towards that goal.
Of course, I think we can all agree that a firmly stated opinion always trumps logic and reason. I also think it's safe to say that my explanation writeups aren't intended for an audience holding that particular trump card.
Viduus
>>Wizards, well, I've tried a few times with a pure build over the course of 50+ levels and they all result the same.
People have different tactics, but my mage employs this one to solo bandits.
520 > lightning aura
keep 919 active
Originally 512 two rooms (was updated to 909 when 512 changed)
Alternate between the two rooms for spawns
The 512 method was better than 909, but it still works reasonably well with 909. The only thing this really doesn't protect a mage from is multi-dispel, but I keep a couple of mana spellups available for those.
>>He can take a moderate hit without too much worry and he can take multiple moderate hits without usually needing to retreat, he can usually stay in the fight still and hold his own. He's full 1x in CM, PF and Perception, yet his SMR defense sucks like all other pures even though he's fully trained in CM (he even has all 5 ranks of Cunning Defense). I've had some success doing bandits with him, but it takes longer. After a couple encounters he tends to become too wounded to continue and has to leave to heal, then there are times after the first encounter he's got the same issues as a normal pure, dead after initial contact or too wounded to actually fight back. By no means are bandits simple for my wizards.
Your guy is still missing a lot of defensive tools from your kit. Going up the 500s gets you more padding from 520, faster recovery from RT from 535, outright avoidance with 540, and an emergency button with 550. Those are actually a huge chunk of your overall defense, so your quality of life will greatly improve as you obtain them - though being a reduxmage I'm thinking you probably are voluntarily passing on them?
Viduus
People have different tactics, but my mage employs this one to solo bandits.
520 > lightning aura
keep 919 active
Originally 512 two rooms (was updated to 909 when 512 changed)
Alternate between the two rooms for spawns
The 512 method was better than 909, but it still works reasonably well with 909. The only thing this really doesn't protect a mage from is multi-dispel, but I keep a couple of mana spellups available for those.
>>He can take a moderate hit without too much worry and he can take multiple moderate hits without usually needing to retreat, he can usually stay in the fight still and hold his own. He's full 1x in CM, PF and Perception, yet his SMR defense sucks like all other pures even though he's fully trained in CM (he even has all 5 ranks of Cunning Defense). I've had some success doing bandits with him, but it takes longer. After a couple encounters he tends to become too wounded to continue and has to leave to heal, then there are times after the first encounter he's got the same issues as a normal pure, dead after initial contact or too wounded to actually fight back. By no means are bandits simple for my wizards.
Your guy is still missing a lot of defensive tools from your kit. Going up the 500s gets you more padding from 520, faster recovery from RT from 535, outright avoidance with 540, and an emergency button with 550. Those are actually a huge chunk of your overall defense, so your quality of life will greatly improve as you obtain them - though being a reduxmage I'm thinking you probably are voluntarily passing on them?
Viduus
> Your guy is still missing a lot of defensive tools from your kit. Going up the 500s gets you more padding from 520, faster recovery from RT from 535, outright avoidance with 540, and an emergency button with 550. Those are actually a huge chunk of your overall defense, so your quality of life will greatly improve as you obtain them - though being a reduxmage I'm thinking you probably are voluntarily passing on them?
Can't build up redux on a mage with too many spells. His DS is solid with elementals and wizardly spells. He doesn't really use any outside spells aside from 101 and 107. His TD is okay, but that's not something that matters hunting bandits.
He is limited in known spells and won't progress any further in them (great character backstory on why). Like I said, he's far from any kind of normal, but he is effective at hunting with 7x equipment and plenty of enhancives. However, his SMR defense is piss poor, like all other pures and that's his biggest downfall for hunting bandits. If you're curious these are his skill ranks with all enhancives on and his weapon/shield equipped:
This is his health/redux without enhancives active:
I could do the 909 in rooms and dance between them, but that's not something he can easily do. He is kind of mana restricted (has 208 mana) so he can't just be casting off spell after spell. Also, he's got 9% spell hindrance with studded leather. Keeping 909 actively going between two rooms, recasting it for selfcast use and needed 506 to be active would be too mana intensive for an extended duration of time.
As for bandits, I wouldn't be against them having capped/maxed health for each race. Gnome caps at 135 + 35 for the CMAN that boosts health = 170. Even if it were to flirt with 200 I wouldn't really think about it.
Or, change what bandits look like. Right now I'm given the impression they're just other playable race folks out to get you. If they were creature based I wouldn't really think about it. Orcs, goblins, krolvin, shan....I don't second guess logically what these creatures have for health. However, when I'm fighting a gnome or dwarf, I know how much health they should have and it seems like a cheap tactic for them to have 100-150+ more health than any player of the same race can obtain.
Can't build up redux on a mage with too many spells. His DS is solid with elementals and wizardly spells. He doesn't really use any outside spells aside from 101 and 107. His TD is okay, but that's not something that matters hunting bandits.
He is limited in known spells and won't progress any further in them (great character backstory on why). Like I said, he's far from any kind of normal, but he is effective at hunting with 7x equipment and plenty of enhancives. However, his SMR defense is piss poor, like all other pures and that's his biggest downfall for hunting bandits. If you're curious these are his skill ranks with all enhancives on and his weapon/shield equipped:
| (at level 59), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are: | |
| Skill Name | Current Current |
| Bonus Ranks | |
| Armor Use.......................... | 173 73 |
| Shield Use......................... | 167 67 |
| Combat Maneuvers................... | 160 60 |
| Edged Weapons...................... | 204 104 |
| Physical Fitness................... | 167 67 |
| Magic Item Use..................... | 61 12 |
| Harness Power...................... | 154 54 |
| Elemental Mana Control............. | 2 0 |
| Elemental Lore - Air............... | 136 38 |
| Elemental Lore - Earth............. | 117 29 |
| Stalking and Hiding................ | 10 2 |
| Perception......................... | 155 55 |
| Climbing........................... | 134 37 |
| Swimming........................... | 127 33 |
| Spell Lists | |
| Major Elemental.................... | 20 |
| Spell Lists | |
| Wizard............................. | 13 |
| You seem to be in one piece. |
| Maximum Health Points: 192 |
| Remaining Health Points: 192 |
| Maximum Spirit Points: 9 |
| Remaining Spirit Points: 9 |
| Maximum Stamina Points: 120 |
| Remaining Stamina Points: 120 |
| Physical Damage Reduction: 14.39% |
| Skill Mnemonic Ranks Category Subcategory |
| |
| Armor Use armoruse 5/50 Common Skill |
| Edged Weapons edgedweapons 2/50 Common Skill |
| Physical Fitness physicalfitness 2/50 Common Skill |
This is his health/redux without enhancives active:
| heal |
| You seem to be in one piece. |
| Maximum Health Points: 174 |
| Remaining Health Points: 174 |
| Maximum Spirit Points: 9 |
| Remaining Spirit Points: 9 |
| Maximum Stamina Points: 112 |
| Remaining Stamina Points: 112 |
| Physical Damage Reduction: 11.20% |
I could do the 909 in rooms and dance between them, but that's not something he can easily do. He is kind of mana restricted (has 208 mana) so he can't just be casting off spell after spell. Also, he's got 9% spell hindrance with studded leather. Keeping 909 actively going between two rooms, recasting it for selfcast use and needed 506 to be active would be too mana intensive for an extended duration of time.
As for bandits, I wouldn't be against them having capped/maxed health for each race. Gnome caps at 135 + 35 for the CMAN that boosts health = 170. Even if it were to flirt with 200 I wouldn't really think about it.
Or, change what bandits look like. Right now I'm given the impression they're just other playable race folks out to get you. If they were creature based I wouldn't really think about it. Orcs, goblins, krolvin, shan....I don't second guess logically what these creatures have for health. However, when I'm fighting a gnome or dwarf, I know how much health they should have and it seems like a cheap tactic for them to have 100-150+ more health than any player of the same race can obtain.
>>Can't build up redux on a mage with too many spells.
I'm in favor of playing oddball characters, but I think you're really overestimating the defensive benefit of 10-15% redux in leather compared to what you're sacrificing from spells. Even as a warmage this seems a painful build due to the lack of 425. I took a warmage to 80 in GS3 with 8 health and ~20 mana (aura was tanked so he wasn't getting the standard 3x), but I don't think I could bring myself to play your guy.
Viduus
I'm in favor of playing oddball characters, but I think you're really overestimating the defensive benefit of 10-15% redux in leather compared to what you're sacrificing from spells. Even as a warmage this seems a painful build due to the lack of 425. I took a warmage to 80 in GS3 with 8 health and ~20 mana (aura was tanked so he wasn't getting the standard 3x), but I don't think I could bring myself to play your guy.
Viduus
Been a fascinating thread to read, learning a lot in my game of catch on all the mechanics changes. Lol I don't have much to contribute to the discussion honestly, just that I appreciate all the information and experiences being posted. Carry on. 😀 Oh, though I actually preferred roasters to bandits. Lol I guess I'm odd. Also I'd like to take a moment to blame Krakii for getting my highwayman killed earlier. Lol That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
> I'm in favor of playing oddball characters, but I think you're really overestimating the defensive benefit of 10-15% redux in leather compared to what you're sacrificing from spells. Even as a warmage this seems a painful build due to the lack of 425. I took a warmage to 80 in GS3 with 8 health and ~20 mana (aura was tanked so he wasn't getting the standard 3x), but I don't think I could bring myself to play your guy.
He's viable, you just need to rethink how you approach things. Bandits, however, they get the initial jump on you every encounter. SMR defense getting tanked really took steam out of his ability to survive bandits well.
I fast leveled him on the test server some time ago - his redux at cap is 25.xx% and I also put him in non-enchanted/non-ensorcell/non-padded chainmail then. I ran him around OTF without any issues. He also lacked proper skill ranks for armor he was in, only had 162 Armor Use ranks (+50 ranks from ATP and 11 from enhancives) so his spell hindrance was 50some%. Surprisingly it didn't bother me with having half his casts fail. But, that was also pre-PSM3 changes. So maybe it's different now? When he was there he was taking down Ithzir scouts, seers, heralds and janissaries. He was also taking down greater constructs. He shrugged off most hits, kept things prone with 909 and tore through them with his 7x/T2 perfect gornar falchion that wasn't crit weighted then, either. By the time he caps (if that happens) he'll have 130 Armor Use ranks and be in some nice crit/damage padded brig. Also, ascension may have more flavor other than the common skills that could really let him shine.
I just jumped in the test server and took him to level 100. Here are some clips of hunting OTF and getting hit wearing 5 CER crit + 4 (or 5) CER damage padded, studded leather and 25% redux:
As you can see, he can take hits and with enough ATPs he could eventually boost his redux closer to 30%.
Anyway, enough of him. I still dislike the heavy health that playable races get for bandits. If by some chance it's just oddball ones that are spawning and it gets fixed, cool. If not, perhaps looking to change them to more creature based as I suggested before (goblins, krolvin, shan, orcs, etc....intelligent enough creatures that make sense that could be bandits, trying to loot/kill folks passing by).
He's viable, you just need to rethink how you approach things. Bandits, however, they get the initial jump on you every encounter. SMR defense getting tanked really took steam out of his ability to survive bandits well.
I fast leveled him on the test server some time ago - his redux at cap is 25.xx% and I also put him in non-enchanted/non-ensorcell/non-padded chainmail then. I ran him around OTF without any issues. He also lacked proper skill ranks for armor he was in, only had 162 Armor Use ranks (+50 ranks from ATP and 11 from enhancives) so his spell hindrance was 50some%. Surprisingly it didn't bother me with having half his casts fail. But, that was also pre-PSM3 changes. So maybe it's different now? When he was there he was taking down Ithzir scouts, seers, heralds and janissaries. He was also taking down greater constructs. He shrugged off most hits, kept things prone with 909 and tore through them with his 7x/T2 perfect gornar falchion that wasn't crit weighted then, either. By the time he caps (if that happens) he'll have 130 Armor Use ranks and be in some nice crit/damage padded brig. Also, ascension may have more flavor other than the common skills that could really let him shine.
I just jumped in the test server and took him to level 100. Here are some clips of hunting OTF and getting hit wearing 5 CER crit + 4 (or 5) CER damage padded, studded leather and 25% redux:
| A greater construct raises its massive foot and attempts to smash you! |
| AS: +443 vs DS: +398 with AvD: +31 + d100 roll: +92 = +168 |
| ... and hits for 2 points of damage! |
| Glancing blow to your right leg! |
| A war griffin rakes at you with a razor-sharp claw! |
| AS: +465 vs DS: +364 with AvD: +25 + d100 roll: +80 = +206 |
| ... and hits for 10 points of damage! |
| Weak slash to your lower back! |
| these next two hits I was knocked prone and stunned, but survived and got back up to continue fighting |
| An Ithzir scout swings a gleaming steel broadsword at you! |
| AS: +412 vs DS: +203 with AvD: +32 + d100 roll: +68 = +309 |
| ... and hits for 26 points of damage! |
| Deft slash across chest draws blood! |
| You take a deep breath. |
| An Ithzir adept thrusts both palms toward you! |
| An Ithzir adept hurls a chunk of ice at you! |
| AS: +379 vs DS: +210 with AvD: +31 + d100 roll: +74 = +274 |
| ... and hits for 41 points of damage! |
| Good blow to your left hand! |
As you can see, he can take hits and with enough ATPs he could eventually boost his redux closer to 30%.
Anyway, enough of him. I still dislike the heavy health that playable races get for bandits. If by some chance it's just oddball ones that are spawning and it gets fixed, cool. If not, perhaps looking to change them to more creature based as I suggested before (goblins, krolvin, shan, orcs, etc....intelligent enough creatures that make sense that could be bandits, trying to loot/kill folks passing by).
<Of course, I think we can all agree that a firmly stated opinion always trumps logic and reason. I also think it's safe to say that my explanation writeups aren't intended for an audience holding that particular trump card.>
That wasn't my intent, I just didn't see the need to type out an exhaustive post when a line would do.
Capped Sorcerer: Maneuvers are the main weakness of the profession regardless of build. I might get lucky and have a combination of 712, 716, and my flaring armor disable bandits long enough to recover from whatever status effects the initial assault puts me in (if an ambush from the shadows doesn't outright kill me). 9 times out of 10, he's not surviving the initial assault, though. A sorcerer's main defense against anything with maneuvers is not allowing them to attempt them in the first place, and that's just not possible with bandits.
98 sniping rogue: Traps won't trigger and bandits either won't spawn or won't leave the shadows when he's sneaking around. He can probably survive their maneuvers at this point, but ambushes from the shadows are still deadly and he has no way to force them from the shadows long enough to snipe them himself.
Late 70's empath: Can probably survive them and kill them with few problems, but it's more convenient and profitable to slip on a ring and slaughter minotaurs en mass (albeit, bandits are prolly one of the few things less profitable then minos).
Late 60's ranger: Has spells that can force them out of hiding and keep them in the open... and does spend less time in the shadows then the rogue, but a slit throat or dispel crystal will make surviving an encounter difficult.
Bandits prolly are the most convenient and easiest things for a few of the professions at near-cap and beyond, esp if they're specifically training to tackle bandits. Stretching that to include most builds and levels is taking it too far, however.
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
That wasn't my intent, I just didn't see the need to type out an exhaustive post when a line would do.
Capped Sorcerer: Maneuvers are the main weakness of the profession regardless of build. I might get lucky and have a combination of 712, 716, and my flaring armor disable bandits long enough to recover from whatever status effects the initial assault puts me in (if an ambush from the shadows doesn't outright kill me). 9 times out of 10, he's not surviving the initial assault, though. A sorcerer's main defense against anything with maneuvers is not allowing them to attempt them in the first place, and that's just not possible with bandits.
98 sniping rogue: Traps won't trigger and bandits either won't spawn or won't leave the shadows when he's sneaking around. He can probably survive their maneuvers at this point, but ambushes from the shadows are still deadly and he has no way to force them from the shadows long enough to snipe them himself.
Late 70's empath: Can probably survive them and kill them with few problems, but it's more convenient and profitable to slip on a ring and slaughter minotaurs en mass (albeit, bandits are prolly one of the few things less profitable then minos).
Late 60's ranger: Has spells that can force them out of hiding and keep them in the open... and does spend less time in the shadows then the rogue, but a slit throat or dispel crystal will make surviving an encounter difficult.
Bandits prolly are the most convenient and easiest things for a few of the professions at near-cap and beyond, esp if they're specifically training to tackle bandits. Stretching that to include most builds and levels is taking it too far, however.
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
>Bandits prolly are the most convenient and easiest things for a few of the professions at near-cap and beyond, esp if they're specifically training to tackle bandits. Stretching that to include most builds and levels is taking it too far, however.
It doesn't need to get to near cap for several professions. They aren't all that tough for monk, warrior and cleric by level 40. I can't speak to when other professions start to find bandits are easy, but its not long after they first become available for those 3.
I needed a mug to hide behind on a 3x smith rogue at level 98, not sure if I still do. Ewave will force them out of hiding, but I'm not sure how the spawning works for a sneaking character, I got into the habit of hiding behind mugs. Bandits are actually very convenient indeed for hunting with regular partners.
It doesn't need to get to near cap for several professions. They aren't all that tough for monk, warrior and cleric by level 40. I can't speak to when other professions start to find bandits are easy, but its not long after they first become available for those 3.
I needed a mug to hide behind on a 3x smith rogue at level 98, not sure if I still do. Ewave will force them out of hiding, but I'm not sure how the spawning works for a sneaking character, I got into the habit of hiding behind mugs. Bandits are actually very convenient indeed for hunting with regular partners.
>> Ewave will force them out of hiding, but I'm not sure how the spawning works for a sneaking character, I got into the habit of hiding behind mugs.
I have the same issue on my wizard when I forget that I am invisible. I go running around looking for bandits and wondering why they aren't spawning.
>> People have different tactics, but my mage employs this one to solo bandits.
>> 520 > lightning aura
>> keep 919 active
>> Originally 512 two rooms (was updated to 909 when 512 changed)
>> Alternate between the two rooms for spawns
I put 520 > Earth aura to good use but my natural default is lightning so I have seen that be very effective against bandits as well.
Agree 919 is pretty key here - you don't mind being put into RT for a bit when they cannot otherwise hit you (outside of their initial maneuvers)
535 with 60% RT reduction is also key for my wizard - he just doesn't spend enough time in RT lock for the bandits to finish the job they start.
I don't use 909 or 512 in these situations but interesting ideas! My wife is a huge fan of 909 on her wizard though (as is my warmage).
I find running back and forth between two rooms to be somewhat... off-putting (looking for a word here) so prefer to 'walk the trail' instead. That said, I can see how that would be beneficial to get the additional advantage that 909 provides.
On the paladin side, he's sword and board and doesn't need to do anything special except to stand there in defensive with his shield out until the initial onslaught passes.
-- Robert
From the pitch of the vibration you determine that the purpose of the shield is as a shield.
I have the same issue on my wizard when I forget that I am invisible. I go running around looking for bandits and wondering why they aren't spawning.
>> People have different tactics, but my mage employs this one to solo bandits.
>> 520 > lightning aura
>> keep 919 active
>> Originally 512 two rooms (was updated to 909 when 512 changed)
>> Alternate between the two rooms for spawns
I put 520 > Earth aura to good use but my natural default is lightning so I have seen that be very effective against bandits as well.
Agree 919 is pretty key here - you don't mind being put into RT for a bit when they cannot otherwise hit you (outside of their initial maneuvers)
535 with 60% RT reduction is also key for my wizard - he just doesn't spend enough time in RT lock for the bandits to finish the job they start.
I don't use 909 or 512 in these situations but interesting ideas! My wife is a huge fan of 909 on her wizard though (as is my warmage).
I find running back and forth between two rooms to be somewhat... off-putting (looking for a word here) so prefer to 'walk the trail' instead. That said, I can see how that would be beneficial to get the additional advantage that 909 provides.
On the paladin side, he's sword and board and doesn't need to do anything special except to stand there in defensive with his shield out until the initial onslaught passes.
-- Robert
From the pitch of the vibration you determine that the purpose of the shield is as a shield.
Bandits have always been difficult for my build, but I'm finally at a point where I can mostly survive them. My issue with bandits is with the spawn rate. When you go solo, they spawn painfully slow. Is this something dev would ever consider adjusting? Folks who opt to take it slow can still rest in-between moving rooms. The difference between grouped and solo bandits is vast, and I feel this disadvantages me as a single account holder.
~Land Pirate Maylan~
~Land Pirate Maylan~
>Bandits have always been difficult for my build, but I'm finally at a point where I can mostly survive them. My issue with bandits is with the spawn rate. When you go solo, they spawn painfully slow. Is this something dev would ever consider adjusting? Folks who opt to take it slow can still rest in-between moving rooms. The difference between grouped and solo bandits is vast, and I feel this disadvantages me as a single account holder.
I've had it on both ends of the spectrum for spawning bandits. Usually it's okay, move 10-12 rooms and they spawn. This tends to be how the hunt goes, every 10-12 rooms they'd spawn.
On the other hand, I have ran through a large amount of rooms - looking at 24+ - before they spawn and it tends to be that way for the entire bounty.
On the low end I've had a bounty for 24 bandit kills complete in about a 30 room span because bandits would spawn almost every other room. Kill them, walk two rooms (sometimes one or three) and more would be jumping out at me.
I've had it on both ends of the spectrum for spawning bandits. Usually it's okay, move 10-12 rooms and they spawn. This tends to be how the hunt goes, every 10-12 rooms they'd spawn.
On the other hand, I have ran through a large amount of rooms - looking at 24+ - before they spawn and it tends to be that way for the entire bounty.
On the low end I've had a bounty for 24 bandit kills complete in about a 30 room span because bandits would spawn almost every other room. Kill them, walk two rooms (sometimes one or three) and more would be jumping out at me.
>> When you go solo, they spawn painfully slow. Is this something dev would ever consider adjusting? Folks who opt to take it slow can still rest in-between moving rooms. The difference between grouped and solo bandits is vast, and I feel this disadvantages me as a single account holder.
I agree the bandit spawn rate for solo characters does seem low - especially as compared to the group bandit hunting experience.
Adding to this, it seems like when the solo bandits do finally spawn it is because you just walked into a room with a group of 6 people (another group). This typically means that you move on and let the group that was already there take care of them which extends the time even longer between spawns for the solo hunter (this may sound like a minor point but it happens ALL THE TIME in Krakens Fall where there are frequently more groups hunting bandits than there are rooms. Note: Only slightly bending the truth here!
Can the spawn test be modified to NOT consider non-grouped characters in the room so as to increase the liklihood of spawning for your group in an otherwise open room and not when multiple groups are in the same room?
-- Robert
From the pitch of the vibration you determine that the purpose of the shield is as a shield.
I agree the bandit spawn rate for solo characters does seem low - especially as compared to the group bandit hunting experience.
Adding to this, it seems like when the solo bandits do finally spawn it is because you just walked into a room with a group of 6 people (another group). This typically means that you move on and let the group that was already there take care of them which extends the time even longer between spawns for the solo hunter (this may sound like a minor point but it happens ALL THE TIME in Krakens Fall where there are frequently more groups hunting bandits than there are rooms. Note: Only slightly bending the truth here!
Can the spawn test be modified to NOT consider non-grouped characters in the room so as to increase the liklihood of spawning for your group in an otherwise open room and not when multiple groups are in the same room?
-- Robert
From the pitch of the vibration you determine that the purpose of the shield is as a shield.
Solo hunting Bandits are very odd for my capped ranger. I can get 2 or 3 really easy rounds of hunting them. Then maybe 1 or 2 a bit challenging where I come back with a scratch or two. Then I have a challenging hunt or two where I have to stop early, get really healed and respelled. Then about 1 out of 10 I die, usually from a take down (trap or maneuver) and my dumb butt forgets to sigil escape. In a group its never a chance to die. I see no reason to really change them unless a GM would like to make a bandit cap similar to warcamps :D
