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Hello all,
I am a returning player from about 25 or so years ago...whenever Icemule Trace was new, I think. I was surprised to see the existence of the gypsy fortuneteller and other uses of the word Gypsy.
This word has been indicated as a racial slur against the Romani people and is generally considered to be a word that should not be used. I would ask that Simutronics change her into a "Mystical Fortuneteller" or something similar.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_Romani_people#:~:text=However%E2%80%94according%20to%20the%20few,or%20give%20it%20a%20negative
Thank you!
So long as we are using wiki links, this one might be helpful.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspeak
Sweet is the sound of the pouring rain,
And the stream that falls from the hill to plain.
Better than rain or rippling brook,
Is a mug of beer inside this Took.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspeak
Sweet is the sound of the pouring rain,
And the stream that falls from the hill to plain.
Better than rain or rippling brook,
Is a mug of beer inside this Took.
>> I'm only suggesting that we change the name of a character to something that isn't a racial slur according to the people who both the character itself and the slur was based on.
Actually your cited reference doesn't support your statement as it only says 'according to the few who study the Romani people' and in the same article it references 'and use of the word gipsy in modern-day English is so pervasive (and is a legal term under English law—see below) that some Romani organizations use it in their own organizational names.'
So are you saying that because a commonly used word has been used as a racial slur somewhere, at some point, by someone that it should now be considered as a racial slur in all contexts where it is used and banned from literature forever more? Or maybe we could consider the actual context and usage of words instead and stop looking for offenses where none are given or intended.
What else? While we're removing gypsies should 'crackers' be banned as a food item in the game as well?
No hostility intended here but as I suggested in my original post, please just stop...
-- Robert
>> A halfling magistrate picks up a small rock and throws it at a half-elven bandit in a valiant effort to subdue him.
Actually your cited reference doesn't support your statement as it only says 'according to the few who study the Romani people' and in the same article it references 'and use of the word gipsy in modern-day English is so pervasive (and is a legal term under English law—see below) that some Romani organizations use it in their own organizational names.'
So are you saying that because a commonly used word has been used as a racial slur somewhere, at some point, by someone that it should now be considered as a racial slur in all contexts where it is used and banned from literature forever more? Or maybe we could consider the actual context and usage of words instead and stop looking for offenses where none are given or intended.
What else? While we're removing gypsies should 'crackers' be banned as a food item in the game as well?
No hostility intended here but as I suggested in my original post, please just stop...
-- Robert
>> A halfling magistrate picks up a small rock and throws it at a half-elven bandit in a valiant effort to subdue him.
>Hey folks, let's keep things polite and not resort to personal attacks. Thanks in advance.
>Auchand
Thanks for the gentle reminder Auchand, will do.
Sweet is the sound of the pouring rain,
And the stream that falls from the hill to plain.
Better than rain or rippling brook,
Is a mug of beer inside this Took.
>Auchand
Thanks for the gentle reminder Auchand, will do.
Sweet is the sound of the pouring rain,
And the stream that falls from the hill to plain.
Better than rain or rippling brook,
Is a mug of beer inside this Took.
>>Should be an easy fix. Seconded on this.
>+1
+1 To be honest, this was the first thing that came to mind when the whole announcement was made about removing these things from game.
Wee Sleepy Gnomette's player
Cloth-of-eonake: for when you absolutely, positively need to have zombie-impenetrable underwear. - Denil
When my scripts are acting up, I take Modrian with Coding. After a few hours, they feel like new! - MAXMANJ
>+1
+1 To be honest, this was the first thing that came to mind when the whole announcement was made about removing these things from game.
Wee Sleepy Gnomette's player
Cloth-of-eonake: for when you absolutely, positively need to have zombie-impenetrable underwear. - Denil
When my scripts are acting up, I take Modrian with Coding. After a few hours, they feel like new! - MAXMANJ
If we start censoring out everything in the game that might offend someone we won't have a game left.
When you read Mark Twain you think "Oh, that use of words is unfortunate but he wrote the book 125 years ago" not "We need to get rid of The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn."
Avaia, player of
When you read Mark Twain you think "Oh, that use of words is unfortunate but he wrote the book 125 years ago" not "We need to get rid of The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn."
Avaia, player of
Gemstone IV NPCs aren't classic literature written 125 years ago. Is anyone's game enjoyment going to be worse if the gypsy fortuneteller is suddenly the mystical fortuneteller? Mine wouldn't be. I don't see the big deal. For the record I don't care if crackers or any other word is changed if it upsets anyone.
>> For the record I don't care if crackers or any other word is changed if it upsets anyone.
Using your argument... and yet a number of people will be upset if we just start changing names and words in the game all willy-nilly (some people might even call it censorship). Their feelings don't count?
-- Robert
>> A halfling magistrate picks up a small rock and throws it at a half-elven bandit in a valiant effort to subdue him.
Using your argument... and yet a number of people will be upset if we just start changing names and words in the game all willy-nilly (some people might even call it censorship). Their feelings don't count?
-- Robert
>> A halfling magistrate picks up a small rock and throws it at a half-elven bandit in a valiant effort to subdue him.
If the threshold for worthy of removal from the game is that it might offend anyone to any degree or has ever been used as an insult in human history, practically no words will be left. Your willingness to cancel crackers as a food item underlines this point. This endless searching for things to be offended by and then desire to remove them from existence is destructive.
Sweet is the sound of the pouring rain,
And the stream that falls from the hill to plain.
Better than rain or rippling brook,
Is a mug of beer inside this Took.
Sweet is the sound of the pouring rain,
And the stream that falls from the hill to plain.
Better than rain or rippling brook,
Is a mug of beer inside this Took.
Slippery slope arguments rarely come to fruition. Usually there is a gray area but for the most part people can understand if a request is ridiculous or not. This one has several people agreeing with it so I'm going to opine it isn't ridiculous to ask for it to be changed. I would guess no one would be upset about crackers and it was only suggested to worry people about a slippery slope. I've been mostly gone for a while now, is there some constant barrage of people searching for words to be offended by and asking for them to be changed? Most complaining I see has to do with game mechanics and people looking for things they don't like about that.
>Also, are there crackers in game? And if so do they leave cracker crumbs on your clothes when you eat them?
Not sure (on the crumbs part), but there is a tart food script out there that leaves crumbs, so we can only hope the GM owner of it will step forward and make this dream a reality.
Crackers themselves are available on food carts here and there and are the type of mana bread that gnomes produce.
Sweet is the sound of the pouring rain,
And the stream that falls from the hill to plain.
Better than rain or rippling brook,
Is a mug of beer inside this Took.
Not sure (on the crumbs part), but there is a tart food script out there that leaves crumbs, so we can only hope the GM owner of it will step forward and make this dream a reality.
Crackers themselves are available on food carts here and there and are the type of mana bread that gnomes produce.
Sweet is the sound of the pouring rain,
And the stream that falls from the hill to plain.
Better than rain or rippling brook,
Is a mug of beer inside this Took.
I don't care one way or another about the gypsy fortuneteller, but I do think that some stereotypes add color to a game, just as conflict sets the stage for a good story. There's no need to read between the lines. If I analyze a novel written 200 years ago today, using the pop-culture definitions of our own time, I will certainly find parts of it offensive. Should I blame the author for writing of life in his own time, or should I blame myself for reading it today and instead try to read it the way the author intended? I will say this, however:
Keeping the offensive parts in, and acknowledging them, is a far better medicine than trying to rewrite or whitewash them.
The gods and all in-game references to religion are offensive to some people, and generally a hypocrisy of real life religion. After all, we must have source material. Should we go on to list all the words, like wizards and dwarves, that might be considered offensive to people? The story-time concept of a knight in shining armor, or damsel in distress, kings and queens, heroes and villains, or many other components of old fairy tales, are offensive to some people because of stereotypes that have endured over time. Maybe because they teach an important lesson, or maybe because they were entertaining. Removing the things that represent these lessons, whether the lesson was good or bad, causes them to be soon forgotten.
Keeping the offensive parts in, and acknowledging them, is a far better medicine than trying to rewrite or whitewash them.
The gods and all in-game references to religion are offensive to some people, and generally a hypocrisy of real life religion. After all, we must have source material. Should we go on to list all the words, like wizards and dwarves, that might be considered offensive to people? The story-time concept of a knight in shining armor, or damsel in distress, kings and queens, heroes and villains, or many other components of old fairy tales, are offensive to some people because of stereotypes that have endured over time. Maybe because they teach an important lesson, or maybe because they were entertaining. Removing the things that represent these lessons, whether the lesson was good or bad, causes them to be soon forgotten.
>> I've been mostly gone for a while now, is there some constant barrage of people searching for words to be offended by and asking for them to be changed?
You must have missed out on the pile of posts that were pulled, authored by NIR and players alike, a number of weeks back. I've said my piece on this topic and a few folks have been a lot more eloquent than myself about why we shouldn't spend our time looking for words to be offended by.
-- Robert
>> A halfling magistrate picks up a small rock and throws it at a half-elven bandit in a valiant effort to subdue him.
You must have missed out on the pile of posts that were pulled, authored by NIR and players alike, a number of weeks back. I've said my piece on this topic and a few folks have been a lot more eloquent than myself about why we shouldn't spend our time looking for words to be offended by.
-- Robert
>> A halfling magistrate picks up a small rock and throws it at a half-elven bandit in a valiant effort to subdue him.
<Keeping the offensive parts in, and acknowledging them, is a far better medicine than trying to rewrite or whitewash them.>
It might seem disingenuous to compare this game to a century old book, but GS is certainly old enough that the "preferred" term for at least one RL race has changed multiple times (with the previous term being deemed "offensive" each time) with several others having changed at least once (you can't even call someone from Mexico "Mexican" anymore). Heck, since I started playing GS my group has gone from homosexual to gay to queer to LGB to LGBT to LGBTQ to LGBTQI to LGBTQ+.... the gatekeepers of what is and is not offensive ran out of words that aren't offensive and just started tacking on letters in the spirit of "inclusiveness" to the point that no one uses them all anymore, it lost all meaning, and we lost our identity. But I'm wandering off the point.
Each of us chooses what we are and are not offended by (as is our right), however in recent times we have seen the rise of those that would presume to dictate to society what is and is not offensive and periodically change the list entirely to keep everyone off guard. Is it any wonder divisiveness is reigning supreme when half the country is offended at everything under the sun and the other half has given up on caring about it?
On the topic of "gypsy", the word is used as the OP claims in the real world. However, Elanthia is not the real world and there is an alternative definition that gets at least as much use that the OP seems to have over-looked: "working independently or without a license". Since there are no Roma in Elanthia, that must be what was intended.... calling her "mystical" would not be the same thing.
If you are personally so offended by something you're considering cancelling your account over it, by all means bring it up. However if you are presuming to speak for an entire group, particularly one you are not a part of, you will find that you are offending at least as many as you gain support from.
Starchitin, the OG
Pseudo morals work real well on the news shows for the weak, but selective judgments and good guy badges don't mean a thing to me.
It might seem disingenuous to compare this game to a century old book, but GS is certainly old enough that the "preferred" term for at least one RL race has changed multiple times (with the previous term being deemed "offensive" each time) with several others having changed at least once (you can't even call someone from Mexico "Mexican" anymore). Heck, since I started playing GS my group has gone from homosexual to gay to queer to LGB to LGBT to LGBTQ to LGBTQI to LGBTQ+.... the gatekeepers of what is and is not offensive ran out of words that aren't offensive and just started tacking on letters in the spirit of "inclusiveness" to the point that no one uses them all anymore, it lost all meaning, and we lost our identity. But I'm wandering off the point.
Each of us chooses what we are and are not offended by (as is our right), however in recent times we have seen the rise of those that would presume to dictate to society what is and is not offensive and periodically change the list entirely to keep everyone off guard. Is it any wonder divisiveness is reigning supreme when half the country is offended at everything under the sun and the other half has given up on caring about it?
On the topic of "gypsy", the word is used as the OP claims in the real world. However, Elanthia is not the real world and there is an alternative definition that gets at least as much use that the OP seems to have over-looked: "working independently or without a license". Since there are no Roma in Elanthia, that must be what was intended.... calling her "mystical" would not be the same thing.
If you are personally so offended by something you're considering cancelling your account over it, by all means bring it up. However if you are presuming to speak for an entire group, particularly one you are not a part of, you will find that you are offending at least as many as you gain support from.
Starchitin, the OG
Pseudo morals work real well on the news shows for the weak, but selective judgments and good guy badges don't mean a thing to me.
>Heck, since I started playing GS my group has gone from homosexual to gay to queer to LGB to LGBT to LGBTQ to LGBTQI to LGBTQ+
I've never met anyone who was offended by any of these. I've never met a bunch of homophobes being edgy and calling people gay or homosexual. There's a couple slurs people do use to be offensive and none of them are allowed in Elanthia.
I've never met anyone who was offended by any of these. I've never met a bunch of homophobes being edgy and calling people gay or homosexual. There's a couple slurs people do use to be offensive and none of them are allowed in Elanthia.
<I've never met anyone who was offended by any of these. I've never met a bunch of homophobes being edgy and calling people gay or homosexual. There's a couple slurs people do use to be offensive and none of them are allowed in Elanthia.>
And yet I can't blink without the term changing.
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
And yet I can't blink without the term changing.
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
>And yet I can't blink without the term changing.
Change can be hard but if you really look at it, it's not really changing that much. The G in LGBTQ still means gay, they are just joining others who face similar challenges so they don't have to have a long list with each individual group listed. It's like POC(people of color)it's a list of all groups that would fall under that. It doesn't mean each individual group can no longer be called what they are called.
Change can be hard but if you really look at it, it's not really changing that much. The G in LGBTQ still means gay, they are just joining others who face similar challenges so they don't have to have a long list with each individual group listed. It's like POC(people of color)it's a list of all groups that would fall under that. It doesn't mean each individual group can no longer be called what they are called.
<Change can be hard but if you really look at it, it's not really changing that much. The G in LGBTQ still means gay, they are just joining others who face similar challenges so they don't have to have a long list with each individual group listed. It's like POC(people of color)it's a list of all groups that would fall under that. It doesn't mean each individual group can no longer be called what they are called.>
If you want to discuss this point you can email my play.net.... I'm not going to drag this thread off course by engaging here, however. It was included to illustrate a point, not be the point... and this is not an appropriate place to discuss it.
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
If you want to discuss this point you can email my play.net.... I'm not going to drag this thread off course by engaging here, however. It was included to illustrate a point, not be the point... and this is not an appropriate place to discuss it.
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
I've never liked the moniker from way back; totally aside from racial or ethnic slurs (which is a big thing to put aside), where does a "Gypsy" even come from in Elanthia? It's a jarring and OOC term. Add me to the list of people who are fine with a title change for her.
Yes, I am also aware that we have things like scotch, Champagne, and Brie in the game and that these are also out of place. I'd do away with those too, but they're lower in the priority list as they don't wander around town telling me they know many things unseen.
--- Lauren, Lylia's player
Yes, I am also aware that we have things like scotch, Champagne, and Brie in the game and that these are also out of place. I'd do away with those too, but they're lower in the priority list as they don't wander around town telling me they know many things unseen.
--- Lauren, Lylia's player
"they don't wander around town telling me they know many things unseen." -- Lylia
Wait, you mean that you have NOT seen the rounds of cheese wheeling through the town streets?!? That's a gouda thing for you!
.
.
Then again... maybe there is too much Scotch involved in my reading of GemStone screens....
Wait, you mean that you have NOT seen the rounds of cheese wheeling through the town streets?!? That's a gouda thing for you!
.
.
Then again... maybe there is too much Scotch involved in my reading of GemStone screens....
I see this as a situation where as certain terms have become more politically charged, their continued existence in the game has started to break immersion. It isn't that people are deliberately looking for terms to get offended by; the discomfort has always been there, it is merely stronger now so some are being more vocal about it. Personally the term has bothered me for many years not because of any recent culture change, but because one of my schoolteachers frequently used 'gypped' as a synonym for 'cheated'. I've never complained about it here though perhaps the setting would be more cohesive if she belonged to one of the existing in-world cultures known for divination practices.
(I would also make a distinction between writing slurs as a deliberate artistic choice to challenge the reader, as Mark Twain did, vs. unintended ones coming from genre convention like in this game that has never tried to be transgressive. You don't even have to go with the 'old classics' defense or out of the video game genre -- Disco Elysium won plenty of writing awards just last year.)
(I would also make a distinction between writing slurs as a deliberate artistic choice to challenge the reader, as Mark Twain did, vs. unintended ones coming from genre convention like in this game that has never tried to be transgressive. You don't even have to go with the 'old classics' defense or out of the video game genre -- Disco Elysium won plenty of writing awards just last year.)
I can well understand personal issues with words or phrasing. I was (possibly disproportionately) bothered by all the movie references in the unarmed combat crits. Nothing politically charged I will grant you, but it really bothered my enjoyment of the game. I asked for them to be changed as I thought it set a bad example for people to stay in character. I am still not convinced I was wrong, but it was not changed. So, I have since made use of the squelch features in stormfront to remove the offending words.
I'm going to say, if you are bothered by the name, go ahead and make use of the same workaround to convert her to just "a fortuneteller". For my part, when I see gypsy fortuneteller it does not suggest a real world racial groups because this is a fantasy game without those. I figure it just refers to her nomadic and care free life style and it paints a nice little picture in my mind. It does this much more succinctly than if it was some Erithian Dai that I had to go look up (now or as a new player) to figure out what the heck it implied. Real world terms and words, because they are things we can relate to past experience and context, offer descriptive power that kut'zikokra and mekya ne'rutka never will. That isn't to say there is no place for made up gibberish or purely in game descriptions, but that both should be present.
Or to put it another way related to past examples in this thread, if I see a plate with Cheddar cheese on it in the game, I do not think the writer is implying that it came from Cheddar, England but that it is a hard probably sharp tasting yellow cheese. Champaign is fine for me too, even if someone from France may think it insults their national character to imply it could be made in Illistim when all true Champaign comes from france.
If a word in the game is not being used in a way that it is directed at actual human players in a derogatory way, canceling those words is just removing tools to describe the world. If the bar is set lower than that, we get to the situation where words very clearly being used for their non-offensive meanings start getting removed. This is not an idle concern, it happened to my profession's title a couple months ago.
Now I need to go over to twitter and complain about the Dune trailer replacing the word Jihad with Crusade.
Sweet is the sound of the pouring rain,
And the stream that falls from the hill to plain.
Better than rain or rippling brook,
Is a mug of beer inside this Took.
I'm going to say, if you are bothered by the name, go ahead and make use of the same workaround to convert her to just "a fortuneteller". For my part, when I see gypsy fortuneteller it does not suggest a real world racial groups because this is a fantasy game without those. I figure it just refers to her nomadic and care free life style and it paints a nice little picture in my mind. It does this much more succinctly than if it was some Erithian Dai that I had to go look up (now or as a new player) to figure out what the heck it implied. Real world terms and words, because they are things we can relate to past experience and context, offer descriptive power that kut'zikokra and mekya ne'rutka never will. That isn't to say there is no place for made up gibberish or purely in game descriptions, but that both should be present.
Or to put it another way related to past examples in this thread, if I see a plate with Cheddar cheese on it in the game, I do not think the writer is implying that it came from Cheddar, England but that it is a hard probably sharp tasting yellow cheese. Champaign is fine for me too, even if someone from France may think it insults their national character to imply it could be made in Illistim when all true Champaign comes from france.
If a word in the game is not being used in a way that it is directed at actual human players in a derogatory way, canceling those words is just removing tools to describe the world. If the bar is set lower than that, we get to the situation where words very clearly being used for their non-offensive meanings start getting removed. This is not an idle concern, it happened to my profession's title a couple months ago.
Now I need to go over to twitter and complain about the Dune trailer replacing the word Jihad with Crusade.
Sweet is the sound of the pouring rain,
And the stream that falls from the hill to plain.
Better than rain or rippling brook,
Is a mug of beer inside this Took.
<Now I need to go over to twitter and complain about the Dune trailer replacing the word Jihad with Crusade.>
That should be your signature.
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
That should be your signature.
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
>Real world terms and words, because they are things we can relate to past experience and context, offer descriptive power that kut'zikokra and mekya ne'rutka never will. That isn't to say there is no place for made up gibberish or purely in game descriptions, but that both should be present.
Some things in the game world convey what your character would see or sense, usually from up close. Others convey what the item is, even if they couldn't possibly be known. This has been one of the root issues with alteration policy. My only recourse to a kut'zikokra is that it looks like a crossbow, and shoots like one, so it is probably a crossbow. When I see someone else carrying a kut'zikokra around, it doesn't resemble a crossbow, even it if should, until I memorize what it means. To say this a different way, most people don't have the training to tell an uncut diamond from another shiny rock until they've found a lot of them. But to call all gemstones shiny rocks would not help the game, even if it would help our immersion.
Some things in the game world convey what your character would see or sense, usually from up close. Others convey what the item is, even if they couldn't possibly be known. This has been one of the root issues with alteration policy. My only recourse to a kut'zikokra is that it looks like a crossbow, and shoots like one, so it is probably a crossbow. When I see someone else carrying a kut'zikokra around, it doesn't resemble a crossbow, even it if should, until I memorize what it means. To say this a different way, most people don't have the training to tell an uncut diamond from another shiny rock until they've found a lot of them. But to call all gemstones shiny rocks would not help the game, even if it would help our immersion.
