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>> Comfort? You want art to be "comfortable?"
Art is a living thing, and is a reflection of the culture that created it. As a living game that isn't an unchanging snapshot of 1990, it's appropriate Gemstone keeps pace with the society it exists in, even if someone like you finds the notion of other people caring more than you do annoying.
When viewed in that lens, it's you, in fact, asking for Gemstone to remain "comfortable" because you don't want to see a change.
So are we changing the policy in addressing hateful, harmful, insidious behavior made on LNet? You know, things that actually hurt and do damage to people rather than not-real races?
If this was your announcement? That you all were going to start removing folks and censoring folks who have, using forums such as Discord + LNet, done harm to people via campaigns of harrassment? I'd be applauding and nodding, about time.
Groups who have abused Feedback in order to stymie things they didnt like and shut down? Who have targetted specific people OOG in order to drive them away from events? Who have in these very forums told others they shouldn't be expressing their opinions because they disagree?
Applauding again.
These are things that actually make a difference. Policy, currently, forbids you from addressing hateful comments and harrassment occuring on other platforms. I hope this means that policy will be changing as well.
Maybe I'm wrong. We'll see.
But this sounds and seems and is coming out as exactly the wrong move, while actual problems are occuring right now on Lnet. Where, you know, ACTUAL PEOPLE rather than pretend characters are consistently hurt and harrassed and targetted.
AuchandToday at 11:28 PM
I would like to reiterate: Whick is my hero.
What is love? BB don't hurt me05/13/2020
Whick's so helpful! He's our villain even in our backchannel chatter as staff. :smile:
If this was your announcement? That you all were going to start removing folks and censoring folks who have, using forums such as Discord + LNet, done harm to people via campaigns of harrassment? I'd be applauding and nodding, about time.
Groups who have abused Feedback in order to stymie things they didnt like and shut down? Who have targetted specific people OOG in order to drive them away from events? Who have in these very forums told others they shouldn't be expressing their opinions because they disagree?
Applauding again.
These are things that actually make a difference. Policy, currently, forbids you from addressing hateful comments and harrassment occuring on other platforms. I hope this means that policy will be changing as well.
Maybe I'm wrong. We'll see.
But this sounds and seems and is coming out as exactly the wrong move, while actual problems are occuring right now on Lnet. Where, you know, ACTUAL PEOPLE rather than pretend characters are consistently hurt and harrassed and targetted.
AuchandToday at 11:28 PM
I would like to reiterate: Whick is my hero.
What is love? BB don't hurt me05/13/2020
Whick's so helpful! He's our villain even in our backchannel chatter as staff. :smile:
<<Gemstone is an escape for a lot of people. In order for it to be an escape for all people, we need to remove the blatant and systemic issues. I'm pleased to be part of a staff that is working towards that.>>
Exactly this, Thandiwe. Thank you!
<<Art is a living thing, and is a reflection of the culture that created it. As a living game that isn't an unchanging snapshot of 1990, it's appropriate Gemstone keeps pace with the society it exists in, even if someone like you finds the notion of other people caring more than you do annoying.
When viewed in that lens, it's you, in fact, asking for Gemstone to remain "comfortable" because you don't want to see a change.>>
Thank you. +1 to this. I thought about responding but you said it much more eloquently than I could have.
<So are we changing the policy in addressing hateful, harmful, insidious behavior made on LNet? You know, things that actually hurt and do damage to people rather than not-real races?
<If this was your announcement? That you all were going to start removing folks and censoring folks who have, using forums such as Discord + LNet, done harm to people via campaigns of harrassment? I'd be applauding and nodding, about time.
<Groups who have abused Feedback in order to stymie things they didnt like and shut down? Who have targetted specific people OOG in order to drive them away from events? Who have in these very forums told others they shouldn't be expressing their opinions because they disagree?
<Applauding again.
<These are things that actually make a difference. Policy, currently, forbids you from addressing hateful comments and harrassment occuring on other platforms. I hope this means that policy will be changing as well.
<Maybe I'm wrong. We'll see.
<But this sounds and seems and is coming out as exactly the wrong move, while actual problems are occuring right now on Lnet. Where, you know, ACTUAL PEOPLE rather than pretend characters are consistently hurt and harrassed and targetted.
ALL OF THIS.
<If this was your announcement? That you all were going to start removing folks and censoring folks who have, using forums such as Discord + LNet, done harm to people via campaigns of harrassment? I'd be applauding and nodding, about time.
<Groups who have abused Feedback in order to stymie things they didnt like and shut down? Who have targetted specific people OOG in order to drive them away from events? Who have in these very forums told others they shouldn't be expressing their opinions because they disagree?
<Applauding again.
<These are things that actually make a difference. Policy, currently, forbids you from addressing hateful comments and harrassment occuring on other platforms. I hope this means that policy will be changing as well.
<Maybe I'm wrong. We'll see.
<But this sounds and seems and is coming out as exactly the wrong move, while actual problems are occuring right now on Lnet. Where, you know, ACTUAL PEOPLE rather than pretend characters are consistently hurt and harrassed and targetted.
ALL OF THIS.
| As I gaze over the horizon, the wind tugs at my cloak and whispers, "Adventure" in my ear. |
| A squeaky halfling nearby asks, "Why you playing with orcs heads and troll rearends?!" |
So I guess no more RACE influence for trade, cause it's RACE-ist.
So I guess no more calling someone by his RACE (like " Hey dwarf ". CAuse it's racist.
So I guess all the lores you guys created to justify this and that will be reviewed, cause it contains racism.
So I guess we will all be able to go in a kobold villages to squash their heads with a maul to steal their skin from them. That ain't racism, it's just acceptable, isn't? Cause squashing other races of sentient critters for their skins is really acceptable?
So I guess no more meat cause it's evil since animals are sensible too?
So I guess no more killing rare monsters cause it's exterminations ?
My problem with this, is the concept of RACE is not like IRL. A Black, A White, A whatever is still a HUMAN. People are not "racist per se", they're xenophobe or "hateful of """"""""colors"""""""""" (notice my " here please, I do not simplify pejoratively) . There's no 2 races of human, there's one.
If there was other RACES like in shadowrun/DnD, you BET people would be racist differently, not about color but about really the "race". The origin are not the same, lorewise, some races can't even breed together.
You guys are going in a weird road here and I TRULLY hope you don't fall into obvious traps.
Player of Astrenoir
So I guess no more calling someone by his RACE (like " Hey dwarf ". CAuse it's racist.
So I guess all the lores you guys created to justify this and that will be reviewed, cause it contains racism.
So I guess we will all be able to go in a kobold villages to squash their heads with a maul to steal their skin from them. That ain't racism, it's just acceptable, isn't? Cause squashing other races of sentient critters for their skins is really acceptable?
So I guess no more meat cause it's evil since animals are sensible too?
So I guess no more killing rare monsters cause it's exterminations ?
My problem with this, is the concept of RACE is not like IRL. A Black, A White, A whatever is still a HUMAN. People are not "racist per se", they're xenophobe or "hateful of """"""""colors"""""""""" (notice my " here please, I do not simplify pejoratively) . There's no 2 races of human, there's one.
If there was other RACES like in shadowrun/DnD, you BET people would be racist differently, not about color but about really the "race". The origin are not the same, lorewise, some races can't even breed together.
You guys are going in a weird road here and I TRULLY hope you don't fall into obvious traps.
Player of Astrenoir
<There are no plans to censor anything> -GS4-KVETA
<In order for it to be an escape for all people, we need to remove the blatant and systemic issues.> -GS4-THANDIWE
It is not possible for both of these statements to be true.
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
<In order for it to be an escape for all people, we need to remove the blatant and systemic issues.> -GS4-THANDIWE
It is not possible for both of these statements to be true.
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
You can't remove half-elves because then you're not representing mixed race people because you find their history dirty. I'm sorry my mixed heritage that might be a result of rape and violence makes you uncomfortable and you'd rather forget about it.
| As I gaze over the horizon, the wind tugs at my cloak and whispers, "Adventure" in my ear. |
| A squeaky halfling nearby asks, "Why you playing with orcs heads and troll rearends?!" |
>What, exactly, are these plans?
Unsatisfying answer: I can't tell you, exactly, because the scope is large and we are still working to finalize things. However, I can tell you some of the things that are being discussed or evaluated--with NO PROMISES that this is how they will look when final. IOI: 3.
We are aware of Wizards of the Coast and what they are doing to address similar problems. They have races, like ours, that "have been characterized as monstrous and evil, using descriptions that are painfully reminiscent of how real-world ethnic groups have been and continue to be denigrated." Some of their solutions include portraying those races going forward as just as morally and culturally complex as others, changing text that is racially insensitive, and removing stereotypes to portray people in ways that don't rely on reductive tropes. They are also divorcing ability scores from a character's race--I honestly don't know if that would be a thing that is mechanically possible for us, but it has at least been raised.
We are evaluating how mechanics can catch up and support the direction that many characters' roleplay is already going and which major storylines have supported, such as the repeal of Chaston's Edict or the Valley of Gold. This, for example, might include opening up inns to all races, or removing mechanical NPC discrimination based on race, or revising "flavor" messages that are inconsistent with those storylines. Citizenship may become more open. Ta'Vaalor's paper system may be revised.
We are challenging ourselves to come up with storylines that are not dependent on tropes relating to the oppression of a particular player race. There are plenty of interesting stories to tell that we think will still challenge and engage the players who participate without relying on racism.
We, as a staff, are generally opposed to retconning. We know there are characters with long histories that stretch back over decades--we have those, too. We want these changes to be forward-looking to the extent possible, and not disruptive to any particular character. It will be up to characters to adjust to their circumstances as people in-game, just as they would to any development in Elanthia, which is always changing.
Further updates to come.
~Kveta
Unsatisfying answer: I can't tell you, exactly, because the scope is large and we are still working to finalize things. However, I can tell you some of the things that are being discussed or evaluated--with NO PROMISES that this is how they will look when final. IOI: 3.
We are aware of Wizards of the Coast and what they are doing to address similar problems. They have races, like ours, that "have been characterized as monstrous and evil, using descriptions that are painfully reminiscent of how real-world ethnic groups have been and continue to be denigrated." Some of their solutions include portraying those races going forward as just as morally and culturally complex as others, changing text that is racially insensitive, and removing stereotypes to portray people in ways that don't rely on reductive tropes. They are also divorcing ability scores from a character's race--I honestly don't know if that would be a thing that is mechanically possible for us, but it has at least been raised.
We are evaluating how mechanics can catch up and support the direction that many characters' roleplay is already going and which major storylines have supported, such as the repeal of Chaston's Edict or the Valley of Gold. This, for example, might include opening up inns to all races, or removing mechanical NPC discrimination based on race, or revising "flavor" messages that are inconsistent with those storylines. Citizenship may become more open. Ta'Vaalor's paper system may be revised.
We are challenging ourselves to come up with storylines that are not dependent on tropes relating to the oppression of a particular player race. There are plenty of interesting stories to tell that we think will still challenge and engage the players who participate without relying on racism.
We, as a staff, are generally opposed to retconning. We know there are characters with long histories that stretch back over decades--we have those, too. We want these changes to be forward-looking to the extent possible, and not disruptive to any particular character. It will be up to characters to adjust to their circumstances as people in-game, just as they would to any development in Elanthia, which is always changing.
Further updates to come.
~Kveta
I think it would be nice to be able to fully separate racism in fantasy from racism in real life. Some of our players do not have that luxury.
Systemic racism has informed some aspects of GemStone IV's development in the past. There's no question or meaningful debate to have about that. Look no further than the topic of "dark elves". It's not enough that darkness is intertwined with being sinister and evil, the documentation goes so far as to essentially say that dark elves are dark-pigmented because of a stain on their race, and that some Faendryl mothers try to lighten the skin of their children to help them better fit in to society.
Scrub the epic fantasy references and replace them with mythic history, and they're straight out of Mormon texts justifying the physical 'stain' on black people.
We're starting with what I see as low-hanging fruit: pieces of lore, like the half-krolvin origins, that are way beyond the pale. I don't think a single person can look at the half-krolvin documentation and say, "Hm. This is fine." Everything that we've discussed addressing on the staff side has been similarly unambiguous. Look: we may not get everything right, but I think it's more important to be kind.
Because that's really what this is about: being kind. This isn't an effort to reward a small group of players complaining about EN mechanics. It's not about trying to make all of the sentient species in GS the same, or to stifle player conflict. It's certainly not about bringing politics into the game. It's about working to make this game more comfortable for players of all colors, sexualities, and genders.
As staff, we have to put our names on this project. I don't want to put my name on something that makes a swathe of players feel dehumanized or demeaned.
Auchand
Systemic racism has informed some aspects of GemStone IV's development in the past. There's no question or meaningful debate to have about that. Look no further than the topic of "dark elves". It's not enough that darkness is intertwined with being sinister and evil, the documentation goes so far as to essentially say that dark elves are dark-pigmented because of a stain on their race, and that some Faendryl mothers try to lighten the skin of their children to help them better fit in to society.
Scrub the epic fantasy references and replace them with mythic history, and they're straight out of Mormon texts justifying the physical 'stain' on black people.
We're starting with what I see as low-hanging fruit: pieces of lore, like the half-krolvin origins, that are way beyond the pale. I don't think a single person can look at the half-krolvin documentation and say, "Hm. This is fine." Everything that we've discussed addressing on the staff side has been similarly unambiguous. Look: we may not get everything right, but I think it's more important to be kind.
Because that's really what this is about: being kind. This isn't an effort to reward a small group of players complaining about EN mechanics. It's not about trying to make all of the sentient species in GS the same, or to stifle player conflict. It's certainly not about bringing politics into the game. It's about working to make this game more comfortable for players of all colors, sexualities, and genders.
As staff, we have to put our names on this project. I don't want to put my name on something that makes a swathe of players feel dehumanized or demeaned.
Auchand
<<You know it's funny. Two people now resort to ad hominem attacks on my character. The real me, not some fictitious character in a fantasy story. But you know they are expressing support for the GMs decision so I doubt they will be reprimanded in any way. Go figure.>>
<<Comfort? You want art to be "comfortable?" Something tells me I should introduce you to the photography of Robert Mapplethorpe.>>
Sort of how you started a conversation about it and insisted that YOU (the player) should introduce ME (the player) to some real life comparison?
<<Comfort? You want art to be "comfortable?" Something tells me I should introduce you to the photography of Robert Mapplethorpe.>>
Sort of how you started a conversation about it and insisted that YOU (the player) should introduce ME (the player) to some real life comparison?
>So are we changing the policy in addressing hateful, harmful, insidious behavior made on LNet? You know, things that actually hurt and do damage to people rather than not-real races?
We do not have the ability to moderate LNet. It also doesn't seem germane to this specific conversation.
Auchand
We do not have the ability to moderate LNet. It also doesn't seem germane to this specific conversation.
Auchand
I just want to know one thing. Hypothetically speaking of course, but if my character was a half-elven Tehir person of color that primarily uses Japanese named weaponry as well as the occasional tomahawk; prefers to drink 'scotch', dresses a bit like a cowboy, and is a prolific cross-dresser... and I've played this character to the tune of 15+ years.
How much trouble am I about to be in with ya'all?
Asking for a friend.
.jaired
>LIKE A BOSS
Please rephrase that command.
How much trouble am I about to be in with ya'all?
Asking for a friend.
.jaired
>LIKE A BOSS
Please rephrase that command.
Let me know if said character needs more hooker boots. The gnomette is always up for making more hooker boots.
Wee Sleepy Gnomette's player
Cloth-of-eonake: for when you absolutely, positively need to have zombie-impenetrable underwear. - Denil
When my scripts are acting up, I take Modrian with Coding. After a few hours, they feel like new! - MAXMANJ
Wee Sleepy Gnomette's player
Cloth-of-eonake: for when you absolutely, positively need to have zombie-impenetrable underwear. - Denil
When my scripts are acting up, I take Modrian with Coding. After a few hours, they feel like new! - MAXMANJ
>>I just want to know one thing. Hypothetically speaking of course, but if my character was a half-elven Tehir person of color that primarily uses Japanese named weaponry as well as the occasional tomahawk; prefers to drink 'scotch', dresses a bit like a cowboy, and is a prolific cross-dresser... and I've played this character to the tune of 15+ years.
..Weeb.
jk
~You remove a pair of oval ora-framed spectacles with pale grey lenses from in your ebon linen vest. You unfold the earpieces of your spectacles. You put on a pair of oval ora-framed spectacles with pale grey lenses. You think to yourself, "Deal with it."
..Weeb.
jk
~You remove a pair of oval ora-framed spectacles with pale grey lenses from in your ebon linen vest. You unfold the earpieces of your spectacles. You put on a pair of oval ora-framed spectacles with pale grey lenses. You think to yourself, "Deal with it."
>I just want to know one thing. Hypothetically speaking of course, but if my character was a half-elven Tehir person of color that primarily uses Japanese named weaponry as well as the occasional tomahawk; prefers to drink 'scotch', dresses a bit like a cowboy, and is a prolific cross-dresser... and I've played this character to the tune of 15+ years.
You go on with your bad self. What we're trying to do is make sure that the "system," such as NPCs, mechanics, official documentation, etc., doesn't stop you from being you.
~Kveta
You go on with your bad self. What we're trying to do is make sure that the "system," such as NPCs, mechanics, official documentation, etc., doesn't stop you from being you.
~Kveta
I was going to say, it might be beneficial to stop with the hyperbolic knee-jerk reactions until we find out what's actually being considered for change.
Mad respect to Kveta and Auchand, very well-said.
-- Wheels & Skulls Department
You see Blood Mayor Cruxophim the Blood Reaver.
“Blood for the Blood Mayor! Skulls for the Skull Office!”
[ Storyline: https://goo.gl/HNbwpC ]
[ Order of the Shadow: https://goo.gl/88Ojff ]
Mad respect to Kveta and Auchand, very well-said.
-- Wheels & Skulls Department
You see Blood Mayor Cruxophim the Blood Reaver.
“Blood for the Blood Mayor! Skulls for the Skull Office!”
[ Storyline: https://goo.gl/HNbwpC ]
[ Order of the Shadow: https://goo.gl/88Ojff ]
> Now that is just insulting. You know absolutely nothing about me, my life, or how I think. Keep the personal attacks out of this discussion. Thankyouverymuch.
> You know it's funny. Two people now resort to ad hominem attacks on my character. The real me, not some fictitious character in a fantasy story. But you know they are expressing support for the GMs decision so I doubt they will be reprimanded in any way. Go figure.
I was going to let it drop, but since you're not, and continue to post about it: I addressed your core argument about the comfortability of art, so no, my post wasn't an "ad hominem," even if you found my characterization of your opposition to the GMs' stated intent to review existing systems insulting.
For someone ostensibly decrying "personal attacks" and "ad hominems," out of the other side of your mouth, you've described supporters of the GMs' intent as "censorious," which makes absolutely no sense. Simutronics' own decision to change their game isn't "censorship" of their game. It's their property to do with as they please.
> You know it's funny. Two people now resort to ad hominem attacks on my character. The real me, not some fictitious character in a fantasy story. But you know they are expressing support for the GMs decision so I doubt they will be reprimanded in any way. Go figure.
I was going to let it drop, but since you're not, and continue to post about it: I addressed your core argument about the comfortability of art, so no, my post wasn't an "ad hominem," even if you found my characterization of your opposition to the GMs' stated intent to review existing systems insulting.
For someone ostensibly decrying "personal attacks" and "ad hominems," out of the other side of your mouth, you've described supporters of the GMs' intent as "censorious," which makes absolutely no sense. Simutronics' own decision to change their game isn't "censorship" of their game. It's their property to do with as they please.
>But this sounds and seems and is coming out as exactly the wrong move, while actual problems are occuring right now on Lnet. Where, you know, ACTUAL PEOPLE rather than pretend characters are consistently hurt and harrassed and targetted.
I, personally, would love if we could fix LNet, but we can't. It is literally a third-party service that we cannot control, and LNet identity is not authenticated in any real way. You can send messages under any name. The only thing I can do is suggest you turn it off.
That said, we are working on ESP changes that will hopefully provide an alternative to LNet that we can actually monitor.
~Kveta
I, personally, would love if we could fix LNet, but we can't. It is literally a third-party service that we cannot control, and LNet identity is not authenticated in any real way. You can send messages under any name. The only thing I can do is suggest you turn it off.
That said, we are working on ESP changes that will hopefully provide an alternative to LNet that we can actually monitor.
~Kveta
It's natural that groups of people will have competing interests, and that people will band together with others along various pathways, such as culture, race, religion, etc. Trying to pretend that there is no conflict along these lines makes elanthia a world that is simply not believable.
I hope that efforts to revamp things will look for egregious situations, rather than trying to completely dumb down the lore and history of elanthia to create a perfect harmonious world with no strife or hurt feelings.
I think it's ok for there to be characters with reprehensible beliefs, because it creates more meaning with in game interactions, and ups the stakes on storylines. For example, I think it's fine that Chaston and the Blameless hated half elves and non-believers, etc, because it provided a rallying cry for players to fight injustice.
Try having any of that storyline without bigotry and racism. The fact is, if there are no bad guys, then there are also no good guys.
>>We, as a staff, are generally opposed to retconning. We know there are characters with long histories that stretch back over decades--we have those, too. We want these changes to be forward-looking to the extent possible, and not disruptive to any particular character. It will be up to characters to adjust to their circumstances as people in-game, just as they would to any development in Elanthia, which is always changing.
I have faith in the creativity of our GM staff, who are as Kveta said, also longtime players to handle the next steps in the life cycle of Gemstone without straight up retconning. The incredible development that's been rolling out at frankly breakneck speed lately should be taken as evidence that the staff is listening, and they love the game as much as the rest of us.
The sky isn't falling, guys. It's opening up to let the sun shine a little brighter.
/seo, wheels and skulls department/
I have faith in the creativity of our GM staff, who are as Kveta said, also longtime players to handle the next steps in the life cycle of Gemstone without straight up retconning. The incredible development that's been rolling out at frankly breakneck speed lately should be taken as evidence that the staff is listening, and they love the game as much as the rest of us.
The sky isn't falling, guys. It's opening up to let the sun shine a little brighter.
/seo, wheels and skulls department/
>There are no plans to censor anything. There is no plan to require any character to rewrite their own story. There is no plan to force any character to behave in any certain way going forward.
>Interesting choice of words. There is no "plan" to do any of this, can you say for sure none of this will ever happen?
Guess no GM will commit to this then so I guess it's a possibility in the future. Interesting.
>As staff, we have to put our names on this project. I don't want to put my name on something that makes a swathe of players feel dehumanized or demeaned.
Vegans exist, they would probably be horrified to learn that the Adventurer's Guild has people go out and kill dozens of coyotes for their tails.
Is this going to change too? Or are vegans not people? There really is no wrong answer here, I'm just curious.
>Interesting choice of words. There is no "plan" to do any of this, can you say for sure none of this will ever happen?
Guess no GM will commit to this then so I guess it's a possibility in the future. Interesting.
>As staff, we have to put our names on this project. I don't want to put my name on something that makes a swathe of players feel dehumanized or demeaned.
Vegans exist, they would probably be horrified to learn that the Adventurer's Guild has people go out and kill dozens of coyotes for their tails.
Is this going to change too? Or are vegans not people? There really is no wrong answer here, I'm just curious.
>Try having any of that storyline without bigotry and racism. The fact is, if there are no bad guys, then there are also no good guys.
It seems to me that a bit of the problem is that the game itself (documentation, mechanics, messaging, storylines) mostly regards bigotry and racism as a good thing.
~Kveta
It seems to me that a bit of the problem is that the game itself (documentation, mechanics, messaging, storylines) mostly regards bigotry and racism as a good thing.
~Kveta
>I was going to say, it might be beneficial to stop with the hyperbolic knee-jerk reactions until we find out what's actually being considered for change.
Eh, I'm sure some of you will laugh at me for this but I consider this game, in some sense, a form of artistic expression. What this announcement is saying is "That form of Art is no longer allowed." You better believe I am going to stand up and start shouting. From the get'.
Avaia, player of
Eh, I'm sure some of you will laugh at me for this but I consider this game, in some sense, a form of artistic expression. What this announcement is saying is "That form of Art is no longer allowed." You better believe I am going to stand up and start shouting. From the get'.
Avaia, player of
<It's about working to make this game more comfortable for players of all colors, sexualities, and genders.>
In the 25 years I've played GS I've never once felt the need to confirm or deny anything about my RL race, sexuality, gender, or religion and I'm not about to now.
But as someone that falls into "minority" categories for 3 of the 4, I would much rather be uncomfortable then allow ANYONE to dictate what does or does not make me comfortable.
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
In the 25 years I've played GS I've never once felt the need to confirm or deny anything about my RL race, sexuality, gender, or religion and I'm not about to now.
But as someone that falls into "minority" categories for 3 of the 4, I would much rather be uncomfortable then allow ANYONE to dictate what does or does not make me comfortable.
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
>It seems to me that a bit of the problem is that the game itself (documentation, mechanics, messaging, storylines) mostly regards bigotry and racism as a good thing.
I have literally never taken anything I have read about the history or lore of the game to mean bigotry and racism were a GOOD thing. Can you point to any examples of this?
I have literally never taken anything I have read about the history or lore of the game to mean bigotry and racism were a GOOD thing. Can you point to any examples of this?
<Systemic racism has informed some aspects of GemStone IV's development in the past. There's no question or meaningful debate to have about that. Look no further than the topic of "dark elves". It's not enough that darkness is intertwined with being sinister and evil, the documentation goes so far as to essentially say that dark elves are dark-pigmented because of a stain on their race, and that some Faendryl mothers try to lighten the skin of their children to help them better fit in to society.
<Scrub the epic fantasy references and replace them with mythic history, and they're straight out of Mormon texts justifying the physical 'stain' on black people.
<We're starting with what I see as low-hanging fruit: pieces of lore, like the half-krolvin origins, that are way beyond the pale. I don't think a single person can look at the half-krolvin documentation and say, "Hm. This is fine." Everything that we've discussed addressing on the staff side has been similarly unambiguous. Look: we may not get everything right, but I think it's more important to be kind.
Man you just don't get it.
If you whitewash everything and make it all rainbows I don't feel included at all. Where is the race or history that I feel resonates with my experiences in the real world?
As a black guy, I love being a dark elf where DESPITE being black skinned THEY'RE FRICKEN COOL! And they're arrogant as hell and treat everyone else like they're the inferior ones.
I have a female half-krolvin that I leveled to 91 and enjoyed RP'ing quite a bit for a time because DESPITE the lore she could be respected by the community and have worth.
<Scrub the epic fantasy references and replace them with mythic history, and they're straight out of Mormon texts justifying the physical 'stain' on black people.
<We're starting with what I see as low-hanging fruit: pieces of lore, like the half-krolvin origins, that are way beyond the pale. I don't think a single person can look at the half-krolvin documentation and say, "Hm. This is fine." Everything that we've discussed addressing on the staff side has been similarly unambiguous. Look: we may not get everything right, but I think it's more important to be kind.
Man you just don't get it.
If you whitewash everything and make it all rainbows I don't feel included at all. Where is the race or history that I feel resonates with my experiences in the real world?
As a black guy, I love being a dark elf where DESPITE being black skinned THEY'RE FRICKEN COOL! And they're arrogant as hell and treat everyone else like they're the inferior ones.
I have a female half-krolvin that I leveled to 91 and enjoyed RP'ing quite a bit for a time because DESPITE the lore she could be respected by the community and have worth.
| As I gaze over the horizon, the wind tugs at my cloak and whispers, "Adventure" in my ear. |
| A squeaky halfling nearby asks, "Why you playing with orcs heads and troll rearends?!" |
>After reading the thread in the other topic and this announcement I have to say I'm disappointed. I come here to get away from RL politics, not have it further shoved down my throat.
Can you clarify how it's "political" for GameMasters to reevaluate systems and lore in GS that are informed by real-life racism and update them?
Basic decency and respect for others is not a political issue. If it is, then I don't think I'd want to be part of a party that's anti-decency or pro-racism.
Auchand
Can you clarify how it's "political" for GameMasters to reevaluate systems and lore in GS that are informed by real-life racism and update them?
Basic decency and respect for others is not a political issue. If it is, then I don't think I'd want to be part of a party that's anti-decency or pro-racism.
Auchand
>In the 25 years I've played GS I've never once felt the need to confirm or deny anything about my RL race, sexuality, gender, or religion and I'm not about to now.
No one is asking you to.
The GameMaster staff is not asking any players to change their roleplay or do anything different. We are looking into the systems for which we are responsible. I don't think we've expressed anywhere that we're going to demand players to take any actions at all.
Auchand
No one is asking you to.
The GameMaster staff is not asking any players to change their roleplay or do anything different. We are looking into the systems for which we are responsible. I don't think we've expressed anywhere that we're going to demand players to take any actions at all.
Auchand
Basic decency and respect for others is not a political issue. If it is, then I don't think I'd want to be part of a party that's anti-decency or pro-racism.
Once more for the people in the back.
You can be on the right side of history, or the wrong side; it's your choice, but there's nothing wrong with changing your mind upon reflection.
-- Wheels & Skulls Department
You see Blood Mayor Cruxophim the Blood Reaver.
“Blood for the Blood Mayor! Skulls for the Skull Office!”
[ Storyline: https://goo.gl/HNbwpC ]
[ Order of the Shadow: https://goo.gl/88Ojff ]
Once more for the people in the back.
You can be on the right side of history, or the wrong side; it's your choice, but there's nothing wrong with changing your mind upon reflection.
-- Wheels & Skulls Department
You see Blood Mayor Cruxophim the Blood Reaver.
“Blood for the Blood Mayor! Skulls for the Skull Office!”
[ Storyline: https://goo.gl/HNbwpC ]
[ Order of the Shadow: https://goo.gl/88Ojff ]
>Basic decency and respect for others is not a political issue.
Of course it's not, now you're just engaging in some serious appeal to emotion fallacy to shame anyone who disagrees with your position.
The point is you are talking about changing a fictional history based on what's happening in real life. That is what is political.
Do you think we're dumb? Do you think the timing of your announcement is just a coincidence?
Of course it's not, now you're just engaging in some serious appeal to emotion fallacy to shame anyone who disagrees with your position.
The point is you are talking about changing a fictional history based on what's happening in real life. That is what is political.
Do you think we're dumb? Do you think the timing of your announcement is just a coincidence?
Real Life left-leaning progressive here. Odd that should matter in an online Fantasy game but these are the times we live in.
If Gemstone, which is set in a FANTASY realm based on races that do not exist, magic, the undead and so on and so on can be viewed as systemically racist, encouraging racism in a way that bleeds into real life, implicit bias that bleeds into real life or the issue of mixed races which include...Elves and Krovlin then I would suspect you all think most Fantasy novels should be banned from public libraries and removed from any form of academia. Lord of the Rings by itself should be thrown in the ring with Ayn Rand and worst.
Sorry, since anyone can chose to be any race or sex they want in this game, unlike real life, the playing field is even. Real life race and gender is not an even playing field which is not only a key difference, it makes all the difference in the world.
The only post I have seen in this entire thread that might have some level of value is to give players a non-bianary option for gender identification.
This is a fantasy game where we all have a choice to be whomever want as an escape which is 100 percent different than real life in which no one has a choice, they are born who they are (some taking longer to figure that part out but I digress) and thus these ideas of racism and bias are horrid.
You are trying to find a problem where one does not exist.
My two cents.
Playing since 1995 with a big break between 2002 and 2017.
<<Basic decency and respect for others is not a political issue. If it is, then I don't think I'd want to be part of a party that's anti-decency or pro-racism.
Once more for the people in the back.
You can be on the right side of history, or the wrong side; it's your choice, but there's nothing wrong with changing your mind upon reflection.>>
This +1000. Thank you Cruxophim.
Once more for the people in the back.
You can be on the right side of history, or the wrong side; it's your choice, but there's nothing wrong with changing your mind upon reflection.>>
This +1000. Thank you Cruxophim.
<It seems to me that a bit of the problem is that the game itself (documentation, mechanics, messaging, storylines) mostly regards bigotry and racism as a good thing.>
And this is what makes it horrific. I say that in the best way. It showcases a world where racism is considered okay and acceptable. People should be made uncomfortable by it. Removing it is a mistake. Showcasing the harm it does, with storylines and through interaction, is good.
Some people are here for escapism. SOME are here to tell a beautiful story. We need all stripes.
One thing I will agree with: The timeline for Elanthia has been stagnant for far too long. We've resisted real change to the world for years and years. The Valley was a great time to advance it, too, I agree. It just did not happen.
But one warning: The storyline cannot advance only one way toward peace. There has to be tension, conflict and such to remain interesting to those of us not looking for escapism but are here specifically to tell a great story.
I can only speak for myself, mind you.
AuchandToday at 11:28 PM
I would like to reiterate: Whick is my hero.
What is love? BB don't hurt me05/13/2020
Whick's so helpful! He's our villain even in our backchannel chatter as staff. :smile:
And this is what makes it horrific. I say that in the best way. It showcases a world where racism is considered okay and acceptable. People should be made uncomfortable by it. Removing it is a mistake. Showcasing the harm it does, with storylines and through interaction, is good.
Some people are here for escapism. SOME are here to tell a beautiful story. We need all stripes.
One thing I will agree with: The timeline for Elanthia has been stagnant for far too long. We've resisted real change to the world for years and years. The Valley was a great time to advance it, too, I agree. It just did not happen.
But one warning: The storyline cannot advance only one way toward peace. There has to be tension, conflict and such to remain interesting to those of us not looking for escapism but are here specifically to tell a great story.
I can only speak for myself, mind you.
AuchandToday at 11:28 PM
I would like to reiterate: Whick is my hero.
What is love? BB don't hurt me05/13/2020
Whick's so helpful! He's our villain even in our backchannel chatter as staff. :smile:
>If you whitewash everything and make it all rainbows I don't feel included at all.
I'm sorry, but I just don't buy this at all. If I felt like my only way to generate conflict in the game was predicated on racial clashes, I'd be suffering from a major failure of imagination.
We're not eliminating conflict from the game. Struggles will still happen, and Elanthia will still be a flawed place.
Auchand
I'm sorry, but I just don't buy this at all. If I felt like my only way to generate conflict in the game was predicated on racial clashes, I'd be suffering from a major failure of imagination.
We're not eliminating conflict from the game. Struggles will still happen, and Elanthia will still be a flawed place.
Auchand
What a wonderfully roundabout way of insulting my character, Auchand.
I'm stepping away now before I give in to the urge to return the favor.
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
When will you realize you're already there?
So watered-down, your feelings have turned to mud.
"Love everybody" is destroying the value of
All hate has got me nowhere
I know I'm slipping, I know I'm slipping, I know I'm slipping away
I know I'm slipping, I know I'm slipping, I know I'm slipping away
Oh no, it is everything they said it was
Oh no, I am all the things they said I was
Oh no, it is everything they said it was
Oh no, I am all the things they said I was
When you you get to heaven you will wish you're in hell
When you you get to heaven you will wish you're in hell
When will you realize you're already here?
You'll thank us now that you have crossed over
Don't pick the scabs or you will never heal
The world shudders as the worm gets its wings
When you get to heaven you will wish you're in hell
When you get to heaven you will wish you're in hell
I'm stepping away now before I give in to the urge to return the favor.
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
When will you realize you're already there?
So watered-down, your feelings have turned to mud.
"Love everybody" is destroying the value of
All hate has got me nowhere
I know I'm slipping, I know I'm slipping, I know I'm slipping away
I know I'm slipping, I know I'm slipping, I know I'm slipping away
Oh no, it is everything they said it was
Oh no, I am all the things they said I was
Oh no, it is everything they said it was
Oh no, I am all the things they said I was
When you you get to heaven you will wish you're in hell
When you you get to heaven you will wish you're in hell
When will you realize you're already here?
You'll thank us now that you have crossed over
Don't pick the scabs or you will never heal
The world shudders as the worm gets its wings
When you get to heaven you will wish you're in hell
When you get to heaven you will wish you're in hell
