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I consider it trolling, when people know that something needs improvement, yet they post about how successful they have been with it. It's the type of thing I hate most about these forums. I can post about how my black double leather is not giving me enough protection, and people will argue about how it's not black but actually dark grey, and completely draw attention away from the main issue - the fact that the leather is not protecting me enough.
The very fact that people argued over the Lancelot thing, instead of discussing the actual point he was trying to make, sums up how counter-productive people are when they make those kinds of posts.
If you're going to post anything on the internet, be prepared for your thread to get taken on tangents. I didn't find his posts to be tangents though, I found them to be insightful and informative. Just because you don't agree with the points doesn't mean they're automatically invalidated.
Dgry
"The reality, is that you have the exact same playstyle, but are forced to play much more conservatively, and have less leeway than you would in plate armor. But someone in plate armor, can (and should) employ the very same tactics, and benefit from it as well. -- CIDHIGHWIND"
LOLWUT?
"Third, I question how many of those are locksmiths, who rarely, if ever, hunt."
As an actively hunting TWC locksmith who knows other actively hunting locksmiths all I can say is... this would be a more productive discussion if you stopped making stuff up. Yes there are some 'pocket' locksmiths about but don't assume that because someone is a locksmith that is all they do or is even predominantly what they do. As has been discussed on one of the other boards it can be pretty boring sitting around waiting on boxes all day.
"The misleading part, was that he said he was worse off in plate. He also pointed out how successful he was in double leather, but this was only due to the fact that he has such a crazy amount of post cap XP, to pull it off so well."
Pretty sure he was using double leathers prior to cap.
"I can post about how my black double leather is not giving me enough protection, and people will argue about how it's not black but actually dark grey, and completely draw attention away from the main issue - the fact that the leather is not protecting me enough."
"The very fact that people argued over the Lancelot thing, instead of discussing the actual point he was trying to make, sums up how counter-productive people are when they make those kinds of posts."
Alternatively, when people post differing viewpoints on the subject backed by relevant experience, you could attack their integrity and misrepresent what they said vs. having an actual discussion on the subject.
"Ultimately, reality speaks for itself. Most rogues end up in MBP or higher. -- CIDHIGHWIND"
"Even split, 8/8 on plate vs. lighter armors. Looking around right now, I see two more rogues who weren't on the initial list. One in brigandine, and one in half-plate, so the even split continues. -- Tamuz"
I'd love to see additional progress towards making lighter armors more desirable for rogues than plate and think the ARMOR addition has helped shift the balance in that direction. A continued and open discussion on the pros and cons of each and better insight into the strategies and tactics employed while wearing different armor types might go a long way towards identifying additional opportunities for improvement.
-- Robert
LOLWUT?
"Third, I question how many of those are locksmiths, who rarely, if ever, hunt."
As an actively hunting TWC locksmith who knows other actively hunting locksmiths all I can say is... this would be a more productive discussion if you stopped making stuff up. Yes there are some 'pocket' locksmiths about but don't assume that because someone is a locksmith that is all they do or is even predominantly what they do. As has been discussed on one of the other boards it can be pretty boring sitting around waiting on boxes all day.
"The misleading part, was that he said he was worse off in plate. He also pointed out how successful he was in double leather, but this was only due to the fact that he has such a crazy amount of post cap XP, to pull it off so well."
Pretty sure he was using double leathers prior to cap.
"I can post about how my black double leather is not giving me enough protection, and people will argue about how it's not black but actually dark grey, and completely draw attention away from the main issue - the fact that the leather is not protecting me enough."
"The very fact that people argued over the Lancelot thing, instead of discussing the actual point he was trying to make, sums up how counter-productive people are when they make those kinds of posts."
Alternatively, when people post differing viewpoints on the subject backed by relevant experience, you could attack their integrity and misrepresent what they said vs. having an actual discussion on the subject.
"Ultimately, reality speaks for itself. Most rogues end up in MBP or higher. -- CIDHIGHWIND"
"Even split, 8/8 on plate vs. lighter armors. Looking around right now, I see two more rogues who weren't on the initial list. One in brigandine, and one in half-plate, so the even split continues. -- Tamuz"
I'd love to see additional progress towards making lighter armors more desirable for rogues than plate and think the ARMOR addition has helped shift the balance in that direction. A continued and open discussion on the pros and cons of each and better insight into the strategies and tactics employed while wearing different armor types might go a long way towards identifying additional opportunities for improvement.
-- Robert
"The reality, is that you have the exact same playstyle, but are forced to play much more conservatively" -- CidHighWind
You seriously wrote this in the same sentence? Seriously? With a straight face? "It's the same, except where it's different."? Wouldn't that mean that, you know, you might need to change things? (More things, I mean.)
.
I'll be over here, scrolling past posts again, until there are some more that make sense.
You seriously wrote this in the same sentence? Seriously? With a straight face? "It's the same, except where it's different."? Wouldn't that mean that, you know, you might need to change things? (More things, I mean.)
.
I'll be over here, scrolling past posts again, until there are some more that make sense.
>>As an actively hunting TWC locksmith who knows other actively hunting locksmiths all I can say is... this would be a more productive discussion if you stopped making stuff up. Yes there are some 'pocket' locksmiths about but don't assume that because someone is a locksmith that is all they do or is even predominantly what they do. As has been discussed on one of the other boards it can be pretty boring sitting around waiting on boxes all day.
I am making nothing up. I have seen many rogues give up hunting near and at cap, because they struggled too much. It's true that it's harder to get XP from picking these days, which is why many have quit. But I know there's still some around.
In fact, someone just last week told me they were going to switch to picking, for XP.
>>Pretty sure he was using double leathers prior to cap.
Actually, he was in brig. Partly why I said he was so misleading (obviously you too were misled.).
>>You seriously wrote this in the same sentence? Seriously? With a straight face? "It's the same, except where it's different."? Wouldn't that mean that, you know, you might need to change things? (More things, I mean.)
I guess I wasn't clear enough, about the point I was trying to make.
My main point in all of this, is that plate armor is superior to light armor, and that using light armor will make things a lot more difficult for most melee rogues.
So, it was stated that one of the main reasons people struggle in light armor, when they switch to it, is because they are trying to play the same way they did in heavy armor.
So I am pointing out how that does nothing but prove how superior plate is. Yes, plate armor is more forgiving, if you use a lazy hunting style. But almost all of the skills and strategies that improve your viability in light armor, also improve your viability in plate.
So comparing someone in plate, that is hunting lazily, with less skill, and not trying as hard, to someone who is wearing light armor, but really giving every effort possible to succeed, is NOT a fair comparison.
You have to compare each player trying their hardest to hunt properly, and skilfully.
But the fact that you CAN get away with being more lazy in plate, is also telling of how balanced they are.
I am making nothing up. I have seen many rogues give up hunting near and at cap, because they struggled too much. It's true that it's harder to get XP from picking these days, which is why many have quit. But I know there's still some around.
In fact, someone just last week told me they were going to switch to picking, for XP.
>>Pretty sure he was using double leathers prior to cap.
Actually, he was in brig. Partly why I said he was so misleading (obviously you too were misled.).
>>You seriously wrote this in the same sentence? Seriously? With a straight face? "It's the same, except where it's different."? Wouldn't that mean that, you know, you might need to change things? (More things, I mean.)
I guess I wasn't clear enough, about the point I was trying to make.
My main point in all of this, is that plate armor is superior to light armor, and that using light armor will make things a lot more difficult for most melee rogues.
So, it was stated that one of the main reasons people struggle in light armor, when they switch to it, is because they are trying to play the same way they did in heavy armor.
So I am pointing out how that does nothing but prove how superior plate is. Yes, plate armor is more forgiving, if you use a lazy hunting style. But almost all of the skills and strategies that improve your viability in light armor, also improve your viability in plate.
So comparing someone in plate, that is hunting lazily, with less skill, and not trying as hard, to someone who is wearing light armor, but really giving every effort possible to succeed, is NOT a fair comparison.
You have to compare each player trying their hardest to hunt properly, and skilfully.
But the fact that you CAN get away with being more lazy in plate, is also telling of how balanced they are.
Well, just grabbing ONLY capped rogues on currently, no light armor wearing rogue on right this moment uses archery. The only rogues using archery are the plate-wearing rogues who are over double cap experience. But there were only 6 rogues on when I looked, 4 were plate (either MBP or Full), 1 robes (hunting a warcamp), 1 doubles (hunting a warcamp). This was in Prime.
Platinum doesn't have any capped plate-wearing rogues, and none use archery (only one is currently trained in archery, but does not use it, he can speak up for himself in this thread if he'd like). As the current Platinum Guru, I am sure of this information. There is one player who isn't currently active who used archery, but he also used other weapon styles.
~Wyrom, SGM
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Platinum doesn't have any capped plate-wearing rogues, and none use archery (only one is currently trained in archery, but does not use it, he can speak up for himself in this thread if he'd like). As the current Platinum Guru, I am sure of this information. There is one player who isn't currently active who used archery, but he also used other weapon styles.
~Wyrom, SGM
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So I am pointing out how that does nothing but prove how superior plate is. Yes, plate armor is more forgiving, if you use a lazy hunting style. But almost all of the skills and strategies that improve your viability in light armor, also improve your viability in plate.
So comparing someone in plate, that is hunting lazily, with less skill, and not trying as hard, to someone who is wearing light armor, but really giving every effort possible to succeed, is NOT a fair comparison.
You have to compare each player trying their hardest to hunt properly, and skilfully.
But the fact that you CAN get away with being more lazy in plate, is also telling of how balanced they are.
Some of the strategies pointed out when using lighter armor involved a heavier reliance on spells and stealth. Neither of which are done better (or should be done better) in heavier armor. Agreed that the discussion should assume competent players in each scenario. I'm not interested in playing a game where I smash the EASY button to play.
-- Robert
So comparing someone in plate, that is hunting lazily, with less skill, and not trying as hard, to someone who is wearing light armor, but really giving every effort possible to succeed, is NOT a fair comparison.
You have to compare each player trying their hardest to hunt properly, and skilfully.
But the fact that you CAN get away with being more lazy in plate, is also telling of how balanced they are.
Some of the strategies pointed out when using lighter armor involved a heavier reliance on spells and stealth. Neither of which are done better (or should be done better) in heavier armor. Agreed that the discussion should assume competent players in each scenario. I'm not interested in playing a game where I smash the EASY button to play.
-- Robert
>>Pretty sure he was using double leathers prior to cap.
<<Actually, he was in brig. Partly why I said he was so misleading (obviously you too were misled.).>>
Not true. Re-read his posts and you'll see otherwise. This is a direct quote.
<<He went from 87-100 in double leathers. Yes, you read that right. Double leathers.>>
So unless you want to call him a liar, he was in doubles and not brig.
Gretchen
Meeting Nilandia: http://gsguide.wikia.com/wiki/Nilandia
Nilandia's GS4 Info Repository: http://www.nilandia.com
AIM: Lady Nilandia
<<Actually, he was in brig. Partly why I said he was so misleading (obviously you too were misled.).>>
Not true. Re-read his posts and you'll see otherwise. This is a direct quote.
<<He went from 87-100 in double leathers. Yes, you read that right. Double leathers.>>
So unless you want to call him a liar, he was in doubles and not brig.
Gretchen
Meeting Nilandia: http://gsguide.wikia.com/wiki/Nilandia
Nilandia's GS4 Info Repository: http://www.nilandia.com
AIM: Lady Nilandia
>>So unless you want to call him a liar, he was in doubles and not brig.
Quoting his post when he finally divulged his skills:
>>35 Armor ranks (guess I still had a soft spot for brig)
Now, I don't know if this was during the time period his doubles were converted to brig (Nor am I sure what time period he had them padded.), or if he was using other brig at the time.
And I'd like to point out, that if I had 6x double leather with padding and self mana camo, it would be so godlike, it would even make ME want to switch to light armor.
Also, he had made it sound like he had tried "heavy armor" sometime between 87 and 100, and that it was worse for him. Now I know he meant augmented chain, which is of course not a very good choice at that level!!
I am telling you, from personal experience, hunting OTF from late 80's to 100, that I tried brig (spell build, just like his, but no shield and dodge instead.), switched to torso chain because I struggled too much, then tried augmented chain, and still struggled. As soon as I made the change to PLATE and dropped the spells, my life got sooooo much easier, and I probably started dying a 5th as often, if not less. Changing to plate was the best thing I ever did!
Then someone comes along and says they did the very same thing, and steamrolled through 87 to 100 doing so? I can tell you for a fact, that either they are not divulging information, or they are full of hogwash.
Quoting his post when he finally divulged his skills:
>>35 Armor ranks (guess I still had a soft spot for brig)
Now, I don't know if this was during the time period his doubles were converted to brig (Nor am I sure what time period he had them padded.), or if he was using other brig at the time.
And I'd like to point out, that if I had 6x double leather with padding and self mana camo, it would be so godlike, it would even make ME want to switch to light armor.
Also, he had made it sound like he had tried "heavy armor" sometime between 87 and 100, and that it was worse for him. Now I know he meant augmented chain, which is of course not a very good choice at that level!!
I am telling you, from personal experience, hunting OTF from late 80's to 100, that I tried brig (spell build, just like his, but no shield and dodge instead.), switched to torso chain because I struggled too much, then tried augmented chain, and still struggled. As soon as I made the change to PLATE and dropped the spells, my life got sooooo much easier, and I probably started dying a 5th as often, if not less. Changing to plate was the best thing I ever did!
Then someone comes along and says they did the very same thing, and steamrolled through 87 to 100 doing so? I can tell you for a fact, that either they are not divulging information, or they are full of hogwash.
>>Alternatively, when people post differing viewpoints on the subject backed by relevant experience, you could attack their integrity and misrepresent what they said vs. having an actual discussion on the subject.
This is terrible. Scanning this thread and saw this statement, and thought to myself, 'wow, that ounds like a qualification for going into real-life politics.'
By the way, I checked just now, noted that Thuunk wears full body soft leather, continues to single in armor and CM training, but doubles dodging, ambush, and hide. I rarely take him hunting, but did just now on a 'particularly dangerous' storm giant bounty to see what would happen. He survived.
But, Thuunk spends more time with the Great Gnoll than he does hunting, so armor doesn't matter so much to him.
Thuunk
>>Then someone comes along and says they did the very same thing, and steamrolled through 87 to 100 doing so? I can tell you for a fact, that either they are not divulging information, or they are full of hogwash.
Or they just don't do what you do.
I have a capped rogue, a lot more experience than "just" cap, in 6x fire-flaring cuirbouilli. No spells. But MIU. I hunt with just a small statue. I'm a TWC edged user with a main gauche and a shortsword. I don't worry about getting hit though. I'm 2x armor for ARMORED STEALTH.
The only armor I bumped up to for a short period of time was augmented chain, as I had a pretty killer set. But I've been light armoring it up since well before cap. And I can even count the number of hunting deaths I had on two hands.
So, while I love the discussion/debate, don't rule something out because you can't do it. Every player is different on what they can or can't do.
~Wyrom, SGM
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Or they just don't do what you do.
I have a capped rogue, a lot more experience than "just" cap, in 6x fire-flaring cuirbouilli. No spells. But MIU. I hunt with just a small statue. I'm a TWC edged user with a main gauche and a shortsword. I don't worry about getting hit though. I'm 2x armor for ARMORED STEALTH.
The only armor I bumped up to for a short period of time was augmented chain, as I had a pretty killer set. But I've been light armoring it up since well before cap. And I can even count the number of hunting deaths I had on two hands.
So, while I love the discussion/debate, don't rule something out because you can't do it. Every player is different on what they can or can't do.
~Wyrom, SGM
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| >>35 Armor ranks (guess I still had a soft spot for brig) |
| Now, I don't know if this was during the time period his doubles were converted to brig (Nor am I sure what time period he had them padded.), or if he was using other brig at the time. |
Did it not occur to you that he might just possibly have meant that he still had the armor ranks to use brig and hadn't untrained them away while using double leathers?
-Richard/Fjalar.
>>So, while I love the discussion/debate, don't rule something out because you can't do it. Every player is different on what they can or can't do.
Hey, it's very possible I'm not the most talented player in the world.
But I can say that my attention to min/maxing, and not learning picking/disarming, puts me at an above average position.
So are you saying that it takes an exceptionally high amount of skill to make light armor successful? If that's the case, it's not balanced.
That's like trying to claim that the weakest class in any game, is balanced just fine, simply because certain players can succeed with them. But typically, if those players played a more balanced class, they would succeed ever more so.
Also, this made me think about another point:
It has been mentioned that people should give light armor a try, before deciding if plate is better for them. I have already pointed out, in a previous post, that most HAVE.
But I'd to turn things around, and throw out this question, to those who keep trying to say how light armor is just fine:
Have YOU tried wearing plate? And if you have, have you made a decent go of it?
Hey, it's very possible I'm not the most talented player in the world.
But I can say that my attention to min/maxing, and not learning picking/disarming, puts me at an above average position.
So are you saying that it takes an exceptionally high amount of skill to make light armor successful? If that's the case, it's not balanced.
That's like trying to claim that the weakest class in any game, is balanced just fine, simply because certain players can succeed with them. But typically, if those players played a more balanced class, they would succeed ever more so.
Also, this made me think about another point:
It has been mentioned that people should give light armor a try, before deciding if plate is better for them. I have already pointed out, in a previous post, that most HAVE.
But I'd to turn things around, and throw out this question, to those who keep trying to say how light armor is just fine:
Have YOU tried wearing plate? And if you have, have you made a decent go of it?
<<Did it not occur to you that he might just possibly have meant that he still had the armor ranks to use brig and hadn't untrained them away while using double leathers?
He stated that he fixskilled into that build, so he wouldn't have just wasted the points, if he was wearing double leather. It's obvious he was in brig.
He stated that he fixskilled into that build, so he wouldn't have just wasted the points, if he was wearing double leather. It's obvious he was in brig.
| He stated that he fixskilled into that build, so he wouldn't have just wasted the points, if he was wearing double leather. It's obvious he was in brig. |
Obvious, of course to you. To the rest of us, who actually read what people say, he stated flat out he was in doubles. He had the skills for brig, because he wanted to keep that as an option, but he was in doubles.
-Taakhooshi, and Me
For the Story of Taakhooshi:
http://www.gsguide.net/index.php?title=Taakhooshi
>>So are you saying that it takes an exceptionally high amount of skill to make light armor successful? If that's the case, it's not balanced.
Is this directly at my post? If so, what did I say implying that? I've been in light armor most the game (a very small stretch was in chain), and definitely am a light armor advocate.
~Wyrom, SGM
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Is this directly at my post? If so, what did I say implying that? I've been in light armor most the game (a very small stretch was in chain), and definitely am a light armor advocate.
~Wyrom, SGM
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>>Is this directly at my post? If so, what did I say implying that?
It's what I gleaned from your post, yes.
>>I've been in light armor most the game (a very small stretch was in chain), and definitely am a light armor advocate.
So, even you have not tried wearing plate. Part of me is wondering if this is a large part of the problem.
It's what I gleaned from your post, yes.
>>I've been in light armor most the game (a very small stretch was in chain), and definitely am a light armor advocate.
So, even you have not tried wearing plate. Part of me is wondering if this is a large part of the problem.
>>Oh I've been in plate. Adamantine MBP to be exact. And no, I won't be going back to any other plate choices. I'm totally untouchable with combined efforts from CMANs, 3x dodge, and 3x hiding.
So then I must ask these questions:
Was this with a lot of post cap XP? I noticed you said you are 2x in armor, which is beyond the means of most rogues until VERY well into post cap. It sounds to me like you are in the same type of position as the previous poster, which I have pointed out is an unfair comparison. By that point, light armor IS the better choice, depending on what you hunt. But you could wear anything, including no armor, and still be very successful, at that point (I'm starting to sound like a broken record.)
Also, did you try plate as you were leveling up to cap, and/or soon after cap? I have a feeling, just like the other poster, that you too tried the MBP AFTER you accrued all that post cap XP.
And lastly, what do you hunt? Hunting warcamps, and hunting the Scatter, are two totally different things.
So then I must ask these questions:
Was this with a lot of post cap XP? I noticed you said you are 2x in armor, which is beyond the means of most rogues until VERY well into post cap. It sounds to me like you are in the same type of position as the previous poster, which I have pointed out is an unfair comparison. By that point, light armor IS the better choice, depending on what you hunt. But you could wear anything, including no armor, and still be very successful, at that point (I'm starting to sound like a broken record.)
Also, did you try plate as you were leveling up to cap, and/or soon after cap? I have a feeling, just like the other poster, that you too tried the MBP AFTER you accrued all that post cap XP.
And lastly, what do you hunt? Hunting warcamps, and hunting the Scatter, are two totally different things.
Yep. Jaired had 35 ranks for the option of brig... but he wore doubles, because they were self-mana camo, and they were indeed godlike. Until they cursed the hell out of him on a fumble. Man those were some good times. It burned mana, though... so I only used it to hide on a war griffin after they had swooped into range.
I thought I had mentioned that the only reason I went to the doubles in the first place was because of that ability... but it was during that time that it kind of dawned on me that I was on to something. Mainly zero spell hindrance... followed by the fact that I just wasn't dying all that much at all. Not as much as I was told I would, anyway. It really is kind of funny to look back at how things were back then, because now it is real easy to say, "Just get imbeds instead. You don't need to be able to cast the spell. Save the TPs for something else."
I think this is, in a small sort of way, where the rift between Prime and Plat thinking begins to fork off from one another. Back when I was capping, for the most part, no one was casting mass spells outside of prime-time hours. There certainly wasn't anyone imbedding. Sure, sure, I could have probably asked someone and commissioned some whenever it was convenient for them to whip up a batch... but ain't nobody got time for that. Also, e-wave off of a wearable item is only about half as effective and half as reliable as the self-cast version.
If I wanted spells, and if I wanted to get my DS up via them... I had to cast them myself. I didn't have a second account or a pocket wizard. I certainly took blurs, thurfels ward, and colors whenever I could. Small statues? Heck yeah. And just to stoke the flames a bit? Yes, I hunted with airwall up for a while until it was no longer necessary. Because as I said, I treated OTF as a DS game... and no. I did not sit out on the sidelines when I was missing those extra spells. Just watched my buns.
Was the high 80s too early to be hunting the main area of OTF? Heck yeah it was! And man, there was this Wizard and Cleric team that would scold the heck out of me every time I died. Luckily that wasn't too often. You also don't need that much mana when you're over-hunting that much, so the hunts were quick ins and outs. Bag a few scouts, a couple initiates, a herald or two... and avoid seers and griffins. Run for the exit on a fade and lay low. Hit and run. E-wave, hide, sweep, swift kick, dispel, and ambush... all a growing hybrid needs. It was a rush. By the mid 90s everything got pretty tame and only the freak accident or the occasional Ithzir Gang Up kept me on my toes. 98-100 was so boring and uneventful I almost didn't make it.
True. I had to eat a CS spell now and again. Either I wasn't fast enough with the dispel or was stuck in RT, but here is the thing... they didn't usually kill. They might have sent me running for a healer, but not every CS spell an Ithzir casts necessarily results in death. Stun stand, stun stance, stun move. Heck, sometimes if I was alone with the creature, in offensive with the right weapon in hand (not a dagger), I would just stun attack it. If lady luck was on my side it'd kill the thing, or at the very least stun it to buy some time. I could usually weather a bind, or drop a weapon fired weapon quick enough. Those flaring weapons, though. Screw them. 101 endroll, instant death flare. Every friggin' time, I swear.
The one main advantage I had, which I would not have given up for all the redux and crit reduction in the world, was the crowd control. Heck, not to toot my own horn (isn't this whole post a horn toot at this point?), but Jaired was such a force during invasions that he more or less got put in charge of leading them... and this was well before he capped. WHEN he capped, I eventually got to pick a custom pre-name title (a plat perk). J's accomplishments were recognized enough that the title of Lord Marshal was granted without any arguments. Not that he'd ever wear such a title... especially now that he is "retired", but it was a pretty nice pat on the back.
All while wearing unviable and inferior light armor. I used to get robed, er roped into these discussions way back when, too. Yes, I did try heavier armors at certain points (never plate except for that one crazy experiment). Especially during my days in Nelemar. I've always had a very love hate relationship with my character's skills and would fixskill a few times a year (AG Potions) to try different things. Because boredom. Augmented chain was okay, double chain was a bit better, brig was 'meh'. It all seemed clumsy, though, and sometimes worked against the tactics I employed. Looking back, the more I think about it, I played in LBP for a very long time. I converted the camo doubles to brig, hated it after a while, then converted them to LBP (same ASG, not as big of a service, had to wait a long time to win a chance to turn them back into doubles. Waiting for the opportunity to convert them to robes now).
But hey, that is post-cap experiences and moot...
Again. Again again again. I am all for enhancements to light armor and making it a more welcoming option. I'm not guarding my play-style or my training choice to try and remain special and unique. Heck, I'm here advertising it. But trust me, I am just as sick of hearing about how rogues should be in plate as others are sick of hearing from post-cap rogues that light armor is fine. I get it, I really do. One kindred spirit to another. I'm not trying to stand in the way of any progress, it has just been my intent to illustrate that it isn't impossible and it isn't a struggle if done certain ways. It isn't necessarily inferior.
Especially when you're playing your rogue more like a semi. <3
I'll leave it up to others that have played more traditional rogue archetypes to cap to voice how they did it, as I can only speak for myself.
My experiences are what they are and I just want them taken as such. I'm not making anything up, I'm not living in some sweet delusional dream world, and the history of my character and his training is not 'hogwash'. It just sort of happened.
.jaired
>LIKE A BOSS
Please rephrase that command.
I thought I had mentioned that the only reason I went to the doubles in the first place was because of that ability... but it was during that time that it kind of dawned on me that I was on to something. Mainly zero spell hindrance... followed by the fact that I just wasn't dying all that much at all. Not as much as I was told I would, anyway. It really is kind of funny to look back at how things were back then, because now it is real easy to say, "Just get imbeds instead. You don't need to be able to cast the spell. Save the TPs for something else."
I think this is, in a small sort of way, where the rift between Prime and Plat thinking begins to fork off from one another. Back when I was capping, for the most part, no one was casting mass spells outside of prime-time hours. There certainly wasn't anyone imbedding. Sure, sure, I could have probably asked someone and commissioned some whenever it was convenient for them to whip up a batch... but ain't nobody got time for that. Also, e-wave off of a wearable item is only about half as effective and half as reliable as the self-cast version.
If I wanted spells, and if I wanted to get my DS up via them... I had to cast them myself. I didn't have a second account or a pocket wizard. I certainly took blurs, thurfels ward, and colors whenever I could. Small statues? Heck yeah. And just to stoke the flames a bit? Yes, I hunted with airwall up for a while until it was no longer necessary. Because as I said, I treated OTF as a DS game... and no. I did not sit out on the sidelines when I was missing those extra spells. Just watched my buns.
Was the high 80s too early to be hunting the main area of OTF? Heck yeah it was! And man, there was this Wizard and Cleric team that would scold the heck out of me every time I died. Luckily that wasn't too often. You also don't need that much mana when you're over-hunting that much, so the hunts were quick ins and outs. Bag a few scouts, a couple initiates, a herald or two... and avoid seers and griffins. Run for the exit on a fade and lay low. Hit and run. E-wave, hide, sweep, swift kick, dispel, and ambush... all a growing hybrid needs. It was a rush. By the mid 90s everything got pretty tame and only the freak accident or the occasional Ithzir Gang Up kept me on my toes. 98-100 was so boring and uneventful I almost didn't make it.
True. I had to eat a CS spell now and again. Either I wasn't fast enough with the dispel or was stuck in RT, but here is the thing... they didn't usually kill. They might have sent me running for a healer, but not every CS spell an Ithzir casts necessarily results in death. Stun stand, stun stance, stun move. Heck, sometimes if I was alone with the creature, in offensive with the right weapon in hand (not a dagger), I would just stun attack it. If lady luck was on my side it'd kill the thing, or at the very least stun it to buy some time. I could usually weather a bind, or drop a weapon fired weapon quick enough. Those flaring weapons, though. Screw them. 101 endroll, instant death flare. Every friggin' time, I swear.
The one main advantage I had, which I would not have given up for all the redux and crit reduction in the world, was the crowd control. Heck, not to toot my own horn (isn't this whole post a horn toot at this point?), but Jaired was such a force during invasions that he more or less got put in charge of leading them... and this was well before he capped. WHEN he capped, I eventually got to pick a custom pre-name title (a plat perk). J's accomplishments were recognized enough that the title of Lord Marshal was granted without any arguments. Not that he'd ever wear such a title... especially now that he is "retired", but it was a pretty nice pat on the back.
All while wearing unviable and inferior light armor. I used to get robed, er roped into these discussions way back when, too. Yes, I did try heavier armors at certain points (never plate except for that one crazy experiment). Especially during my days in Nelemar. I've always had a very love hate relationship with my character's skills and would fixskill a few times a year (AG Potions) to try different things. Because boredom. Augmented chain was okay, double chain was a bit better, brig was 'meh'. It all seemed clumsy, though, and sometimes worked against the tactics I employed. Looking back, the more I think about it, I played in LBP for a very long time. I converted the camo doubles to brig, hated it after a while, then converted them to LBP (same ASG, not as big of a service, had to wait a long time to win a chance to turn them back into doubles. Waiting for the opportunity to convert them to robes now).
But hey, that is post-cap experiences and moot...
Again. Again again again. I am all for enhancements to light armor and making it a more welcoming option. I'm not guarding my play-style or my training choice to try and remain special and unique. Heck, I'm here advertising it. But trust me, I am just as sick of hearing about how rogues should be in plate as others are sick of hearing from post-cap rogues that light armor is fine. I get it, I really do. One kindred spirit to another. I'm not trying to stand in the way of any progress, it has just been my intent to illustrate that it isn't impossible and it isn't a struggle if done certain ways. It isn't necessarily inferior.
Especially when you're playing your rogue more like a semi. <3
I'll leave it up to others that have played more traditional rogue archetypes to cap to voice how they did it, as I can only speak for myself.
My experiences are what they are and I just want them taken as such. I'm not making anything up, I'm not living in some sweet delusional dream world, and the history of my character and his training is not 'hogwash'. It just sort of happened.
.jaired
>LIKE A BOSS
Please rephrase that command.
>I did a quick, informal look at high level rogues on Monday (levels 90 to 100), and noted down the armor selected by each. The breakdown is as follows:
3 in robes.
2 in double leathers.
3 in brigandine.
1 in chain hauberk.
1 in metal breastplate.
1 in augmented breastplate.
5 in full plate.
>Even split, 8/8 on plate vs. lighter armors. Looking around right now, I see two more rogues who weren't on the initial list. One in brigandine, and one in half-plate, so the even split continues.
Those numbers are interesting, but IMHO they don't provide the whole story: do those rogues have the minimal armor training required for the armor they're wearing, or are they overtrained to reduce the maneuver penalty to something lighter?
Looking at the metal breastplate, for example: being trained for full plate plus another 20 ranks lowers the maneuver penalty to that of brigadine: essentially, a 'traditional' scale armor for a traditional GS3 rogue, but with the df of plate and crit divisor of chain, and extra CvA to boot. (This is without applying armored evasion effects)
