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Stealth Armor and Evasion Armor have been great additions. I have enjoyed stealth armor a lot.
I have one bone of contention with these skills. 200 armored ranks to full train just one skill is extreme and limiting.
Perhaps the training cost should be cut in half?
Wolfloner
I can see where 200 was picked so that a single rogue would have to specialize in one or the other if they wanted to max it, but 200 ranks in Armor Use is 1,500 PTPs, AND we can't get there until we're capped.
Paladins and warriors can both triple (to benefit from maxing the skill before cap) AND it's 900 and 600 PTPs for them. That's a big difference.
That's some pretty obvious stuff though - it's possible that the bonuses for the rogue skills are considered greater to account for the higher cost (if this is the goal, I disagree that it was achieved), or, conversely, we're supposed to not be as good with armor so tough luck for us (and if so, I disagree with that design).
-Keleborrn.
Paladins and warriors can both triple (to benefit from maxing the skill before cap) AND it's 900 and 600 PTPs for them. That's a big difference.
That's some pretty obvious stuff though - it's possible that the bonuses for the rogue skills are considered greater to account for the higher cost (if this is the goal, I disagree that it was achieved), or, conversely, we're supposed to not be as good with armor so tough luck for us (and if so, I disagree with that design).
-Keleborrn.
<<I can see where 200 was picked so that a single rogue would have to specialize in one or the other if they wanted to max it, but 200 ranks in Armor Use is 1,500 PTPs, AND we can't get there until we're capped.
Paladins and warriors can both triple (to benefit from maxing the skill before cap) AND it's 900 and 600 PTPs for them. That's a big difference.
That's some pretty obvious stuff though - it's possible that the bonuses for the rogue skills are considered greater to account for the higher cost (if this is the goal, I disagree that it was achieved), or, conversely, we're supposed to not be as good with armor so tough luck for us (and if so, I disagree with that design).
-Keleborrn.>>
Reducing the training cost by half would make armor training more attractive before cap. The cost seems extreme.
You get the full benefit of plate for alot less than 200 ranks. You can only wear armor or stealth but not both.
I think reducing the cost by one half is reasonable.
Wolfloner
Paladins and warriors can both triple (to benefit from maxing the skill before cap) AND it's 900 and 600 PTPs for them. That's a big difference.
That's some pretty obvious stuff though - it's possible that the bonuses for the rogue skills are considered greater to account for the higher cost (if this is the goal, I disagree that it was achieved), or, conversely, we're supposed to not be as good with armor so tough luck for us (and if so, I disagree with that design).
-Keleborrn.>>
Reducing the training cost by half would make armor training more attractive before cap. The cost seems extreme.
You get the full benefit of plate for alot less than 200 ranks. You can only wear armor or stealth but not both.
I think reducing the cost by one half is reasonable.
Wolfloner
>>Paladins and warriors can both triple (to benefit from maxing the skill before cap) AND it's 900 and 600 PTPs for them. That's a big difference.
Remember, though, warriors have 5 options for ARMOR skills - they can train the padding skills or the support skills. (At 140 ranks, my warrior has 3 ranks of padding, and 2 of the minors-not-stacking one.)
Remember, though, warriors have 5 options for ARMOR skills - they can train the padding skills or the support skills. (At 140 ranks, my warrior has 3 ranks of padding, and 2 of the minors-not-stacking one.)
| <<I think the point of that is to make you choose between being open combat or stalk and hide. Of course, you can always get another rogue fully trained in the opposite skill to adjust your armor for you. >> |
| I believe you can either wear stealth or evasion, but not both |
| Wolfloner |
That's true, but my point was that if you trained in stealth and wanted evasion instead (for example, group hunting), you could get another rogue to adjust your armor.
<<That's true, but my point was that if you trained in stealth and wanted evasion instead (for example, group hunting), you could get another rogue to adjust your armor. >>
If you could find another rogue to do that? That is not as easy as you make it sound. A rogue with 200 ranks of armor training is rare.
To be fair, I happen to have 200 ranks of armored training with Stealth armor. I think it could be argued that with those 200 armor ranks I could just wear padded plate for a group hunt in the open and get by very well, perhaps even better than wearing my double leather with evasion armor added?
I would still like the see the training costs cut in half for evasion armor and stealth armor. Even if I was better off in padded plate in the open I still might opt use a lighter armor with evasion to fight in the open.
The main benefit of reducing the training costs is to give rogues something to barter with for spells. My rogue currently knows 107 and 414. He casts minor elementals and adjusts stealth armor for rangers, and minor spirit spells for wizards and bards, and both for rogues and warriors. Combine this with picking skills and there is a lot of interaction between characters that is entertaining. If I could do both evasion and stealth then I could adjust evasion armor for pures and semis in addition to the rangers and rogues I adjust for now.
Similarly, if a rogue could learn a skill at half the rate, or even better the first skill at 81 ranks and the second at 122 then rogues would have a maxxed skill that they could apply about the time he or she reached level 50. This in turn should increase the number of rogues that would opt for lighter armor. I do not know what the magic number for plate armor is, but say it is 120 ranks, that makes 81 ranks to get stealth or evasion a better option and in turn would entice rogues to move into lighter.
If old capped rogues were allowed to train both evasion and stealth at 202 ranks then perhaps they might opt for to train the 202 ranks for that instead of the magic number of 120 ( or whatever it is ) for plate armor.
200 ranks of armored training is too severe to master just one skill.
Just my two cents.....
Wolfloner
If you could find another rogue to do that? That is not as easy as you make it sound. A rogue with 200 ranks of armor training is rare.
To be fair, I happen to have 200 ranks of armored training with Stealth armor. I think it could be argued that with those 200 armor ranks I could just wear padded plate for a group hunt in the open and get by very well, perhaps even better than wearing my double leather with evasion armor added?
I would still like the see the training costs cut in half for evasion armor and stealth armor. Even if I was better off in padded plate in the open I still might opt use a lighter armor with evasion to fight in the open.
The main benefit of reducing the training costs is to give rogues something to barter with for spells. My rogue currently knows 107 and 414. He casts minor elementals and adjusts stealth armor for rangers, and minor spirit spells for wizards and bards, and both for rogues and warriors. Combine this with picking skills and there is a lot of interaction between characters that is entertaining. If I could do both evasion and stealth then I could adjust evasion armor for pures and semis in addition to the rangers and rogues I adjust for now.
Similarly, if a rogue could learn a skill at half the rate, or even better the first skill at 81 ranks and the second at 122 then rogues would have a maxxed skill that they could apply about the time he or she reached level 50. This in turn should increase the number of rogues that would opt for lighter armor. I do not know what the magic number for plate armor is, but say it is 120 ranks, that makes 81 ranks to get stealth or evasion a better option and in turn would entice rogues to move into lighter.
If old capped rogues were allowed to train both evasion and stealth at 202 ranks then perhaps they might opt for to train the 202 ranks for that instead of the magic number of 120 ( or whatever it is ) for plate armor.
200 ranks of armored training is too severe to master just one skill.
Just my two cents.....
Wolfloner
Where did I say it was easy to find a rogue with 200 armor ranks? Your argument implies that armor skills are only useful when you completely max them out. They're useful at all ranks and are a free byproduct of training in Armor Use. Do I think it would be great if the costs were lower? Yes. Do I think it's necessary? No.
If your goal is to have more to trade with more professions (as if locksmithing weren't enough), you could get a few ranks in each. If your goal is to maximize your own hunting capabilities with your preferred hunting style, maximize your ranks in whichever one helps you the most.
If your goal is to have more to trade with more professions (as if locksmithing weren't enough), you could get a few ranks in each. If your goal is to maximize your own hunting capabilities with your preferred hunting style, maximize your ranks in whichever one helps you the most.
<<here did I say it was easy to find a rogue with 200 armor ranks? Your argument implies that armor skills are only useful when you completely max them out. They're useful at all ranks and are a free byproduct of training in Armor Use. Do I think it would be great if the costs were lower? Yes. Do I think it's necessary? No.>>
Armor skills something less than rank five do help light armor wearers. My impression is that stealth armor works with any armor level up to brigadine with some effect and evasion works up to hauberk or MBP. Where it becomes less clear is when you come to plated armor. Is 140 ranks of armor, 4 ranks of evasion or stealth armor, and double leather the equal of 120 ranks of armor and full plate? I know of one rogue that hunts OTF in double leather, the rest I have seen opt for the heavier armor route.
Is it necessary? No. But it would it provide an incentive for rogues to move out of heavy armor?
<<If your goal is to have more to trade with more professions (as if locksmithing weren't enough), you could get a few ranks in each. If your goal is to maximize your own hunting capabilities with your preferred hunting style, maximize your ranks in whichever one helps you the most.>>
If the goal is to have rogues move into lighter armor I think mastering one armor skill at 81 ranks and the other at 121 ranks is one possible solution. Allowing a Legend Rogue (level 50) to master one armor skill does not seem out of line to me considering how effective plate armor when properly trained.
At present I have 202 ranks of armor training, maxxed stealth armor and some decent double leather and robes I can hunt with. If I want to hunt in a group in the open I can always wear plate armor and get along well enough. Being able to use evasion armor would afford me the convenience of skipping a locker trip to switch armor. I would only have to adjust my armor :)
Armor skills something less than rank five do help light armor wearers. My impression is that stealth armor works with any armor level up to brigadine with some effect and evasion works up to hauberk or MBP. Where it becomes less clear is when you come to plated armor. Is 140 ranks of armor, 4 ranks of evasion or stealth armor, and double leather the equal of 120 ranks of armor and full plate? I know of one rogue that hunts OTF in double leather, the rest I have seen opt for the heavier armor route.
Is it necessary? No. But it would it provide an incentive for rogues to move out of heavy armor?
<<If your goal is to have more to trade with more professions (as if locksmithing weren't enough), you could get a few ranks in each. If your goal is to maximize your own hunting capabilities with your preferred hunting style, maximize your ranks in whichever one helps you the most.>>
If the goal is to have rogues move into lighter armor I think mastering one armor skill at 81 ranks and the other at 121 ranks is one possible solution. Allowing a Legend Rogue (level 50) to master one armor skill does not seem out of line to me considering how effective plate armor when properly trained.
At present I have 202 ranks of armor training, maxxed stealth armor and some decent double leather and robes I can hunt with. If I want to hunt in a group in the open I can always wear plate armor and get along well enough. Being able to use evasion armor would afford me the convenience of skipping a locker trip to switch armor. I would only have to adjust my armor :)
Armored Stealth provides no benefit to plate armor (anything above hauberk).
>armor help stealth
Skill Name: Armored Stealth
Mnemonic: stealth
Other Requirements: None.
Available to: Rogues.
Prerequisites:
None
Armor Point Cost:
Rank 1: 20
Rank 2: 30
Rank 3: 40
Rank 4: 50
Rank 5: 60
Description: Adjusts a person's armor so that it can help mask their movements. Provides a bonus to Stealth rolls equal to (Rank * 2 * (5 - Armor Group)).
>armor help stealth
Skill Name: Armored Stealth
Mnemonic: stealth
Other Requirements: None.
Available to: Rogues.
Prerequisites:
None
Armor Point Cost:
Rank 1: 20
Rank 2: 30
Rank 3: 40
Rank 4: 50
Rank 5: 60
Description: Adjusts a person's armor so that it can help mask their movements. Provides a bonus to Stealth rolls equal to (Rank * 2 * (5 - Armor Group)).
For what it is worth, as it pertains to armored stealth, I have noticed a huge difference between robes and scale class armor (with 5 ranks of armored stealth).
In robes I feel like a ghost, in LBP I find that certain creatures still manage to search me out on fairly a regular basis. Namely grimswarm guards, war griffins, and triton sentries. In robes, the only things that search me out on occasion are grim guards. Against war griffins and sentries? I'm not even there. Its great. Outside of a fumble, they aren't searching me out.
Throw in divert and vanish? Hiding as defense FTW.
I can't speak for soft leather, as I've not spent any amount of time in a set to ascertain any differences.
As far as armored evasion goes, we did a lot of testing over on the Plat side and we found that chain class armor actually saw the greatest benefit, then scale, then plate. Robes and soft leather saw no benefit. Can't do any better than zero AP, and you can drop the AP off of soft leather simply by over training armor use.
.jaired
W.W.O.P.D.
In robes I feel like a ghost, in LBP I find that certain creatures still manage to search me out on fairly a regular basis. Namely grimswarm guards, war griffins, and triton sentries. In robes, the only things that search me out on occasion are grim guards. Against war griffins and sentries? I'm not even there. Its great. Outside of a fumble, they aren't searching me out.
Throw in divert and vanish? Hiding as defense FTW.
I can't speak for soft leather, as I've not spent any amount of time in a set to ascertain any differences.
As far as armored evasion goes, we did a lot of testing over on the Plat side and we found that chain class armor actually saw the greatest benefit, then scale, then plate. Robes and soft leather saw no benefit. Can't do any better than zero AP, and you can drop the AP off of soft leather simply by over training armor use.
.jaired
W.W.O.P.D.
>I forget which James Bond movie it is, but there is an opening scene where he has to garrote a few people in a certain amount of time for training or something..
Fremie, you're thinking of "From Russia With Love", one of my favorites. It's actually not Bond doing the garotting in the opening sequence, it's the uber-thug being trained to kill Bond (and does so in the opening scene, only for the audience to learn it was just a guy in a Bond mask).
He doesn't do so well in the end.
Hi my name is Moo, and I'm a recovering Bond fanatic.
Um...Armored Stealth woo?
-Anorian
"Now who's the old man?"
Fremie, you're thinking of "From Russia With Love", one of my favorites. It's actually not Bond doing the garotting in the opening sequence, it's the uber-thug being trained to kill Bond (and does so in the opening scene, only for the audience to learn it was just a guy in a Bond mask).
He doesn't do so well in the end.
Hi my name is Moo, and I'm a recovering Bond fanatic.
Um...Armored Stealth woo?
-Anorian
"Now who's the old man?"
