As hybrids, I would like to see equalization of mana share costs ( i'm going to want to have mental mana share to send to monks so I can get their uber magiks aren't I? ) Currently both elemental and spiritual costs are equal but mental mana share is double the cost! As a true hybrid profession, would this not fall in line with the newly released mental circle?

I agree with Robert. Costs discussions are troubling. And recall there are many professions that are going to want the uber magic from the monks -- sorcerers are actually fairly well positioned?

However, I also agree with a direction Rolfard is pointing out -- something V and I debated a while back in the day, and I'm in support -- sorcerers could possibly be granted access to minor mental.

And I would suggest the same for rogues, warriors and bards. . . But that's a tale for a different folder.

Doug

Just because it makes the most sense considering actual spell & guild abilities to put sorcerers in the center of all three spheres, doesn't mean anyone who matters cares.

I've concidered for some time now picking up 24 ranks of mental share simply for this reason, but have decided that the spells and skills I can offer in trade should suffice.

---

For what its worth, around 10 ranks will likely allow you to share with most folks reasonably effectively.

-- Faulkil

Inside a woven copper strand basket with a partially melted handle, you see an indigo shade-newt, a scattering of deathstone granules, a miniature house-shaped topiary, and a carved miniature twisted tree with a jagged burn mark down the trunk.

My only pressing objection to the concept is the immediate issue of the dramatic buff increase due to 4 circles worth of spell buffs which would provide far too much DS, not to mention granting Sorcerers access to powers like that Iron Skin ability which can very easily give chain level armor without spell penalty. Savants will get that in due time, but thats an issue for another day.

My first thought is that if something like this were to happen, Cloak of Shadows would have to lose its DS benefit to even begin balancing out the stats.

Those are my main thoughts on the matter.

"Getting to level 30 OR 5 ranks in Transformation Lore makes this Leather Breastplate, with both making Cuirbouilli." -- IrvineToMoe's analysis of Iron Skin/1202

No.

Monks are the ONLY profession--not even Savants get it--who increase their armor sub-group naturally through gaining levels. Everyone else can benefit only from Mental Lore: Transformation ranks.

Huh! I see it now in the description. So much to take in at once, I must have missed it. Thats good to know, since I have plans for a Savant when such a thing should ever come into existance. That does change things in this discussion . . . some.

>>Why not have a profession that sits smack dab in the middle of the magic system?

So, the arguments against are:

'Too much more DS' -- can't see that as a concern, frankly, 60 DS for a profession that's rarely touched by anything but maneuvers is not the concern it's touted to be. And I don't see anything on the list helping against maneuvers.

'Mental TD' -- increasing a base of 26 to mental TD and claiming it to be too high is the same as saying Voln's 26 to AS / DS, etc is too high. Bunk.

'Stamina use reduction' -- if a sorcerer wants to train to get this benefit, more power to them!

'Disarming opponents with their arms' -- um, only if their hands are empty. And again, if a sorcerer wants to train to get this benefit, more power to them!

'Might avoid a hit' -- good point. And yet, I would say -- this doesn't seem to be active against maneuvers (not sure on this one). If it's not, this is like telling the sorcerer when the sun comes up in the west, she might have to avoid a hit by casting this spell.

'Rebalancing' -- what am I missing? These arguments don't strike fear in my heart in terms of 'overpowering'. Must be something else?

'Re-RPing' -- if there were more than one hybrid class, yes. Since we bailed on that -- um, we did bail on that, didn't we? -- not so significant. If sorcerers are the only hybrid class, let them be the hybrid class -- all spheres of magic.

'Training points' -- Wasn't a part of the request for hybrid to mental. I have no reservations supporting hybrid mental, and keeping this separate.

I say, it's a radical idea and well worth exploring. And don't forget rogues, and warriors need access to the list as well.

Doug

>There would need to be a massive amount of re-balancing to allow for Sorcerers to get another spell circle, let alone re-defining the RP position of the profession. It's simply not in the cards. Getting the TP cost changes is much more likely to happen, and TP changes to any released profession are (unfortunately, but understandably) very unlikely.

I really don't see the rebalancing being any less or more work than fixing spells and fixing TP costs, which is the alternative. Really. There would be pretty much no RP redefining needed. We're already pretty solid mentalists... we had 703 as Forget, we still have 706, 717, 713, 707, 709, and the guild skill illusions, all of which are mental in aspect. I mean, how exactly do guild illusions differ from the mental glamour spell? Would there be some worry sorcerers would suddenly be too good at dodging manuevers? Well we're currently the worst so moving up might just make us middling. DS/TD can be fixed with a tweak to one spell, 712.

And we'd suddenly have a bunch more skills to train in, it isn't like we'd be getting more than the 55/55 max (or is it 57/57, I can't remember, I KNOW it isn't 60/60, afterall, we're sorcerers, there is always a penalty) TPs per level, but we'd, even after a cost change, would need to pick up a fourth lore type, and a third mana control type, even at lower costs that wouldn't be easy. Supposing a sorcerer was able to get to the normal stopping point of 67 ranks in a 4th spell circle, it'd only contribute like 20 some CS, not a huge amount, and considering training costs (meaning sorcerers wouldn't be highly tripled or quadrupled, which might not even necessarily be possible) it'd probably almost be a wash at cap. Way way post cap, yes, your CS would be higher, but is that game breaking? Is it? I mean... if it is... how do you explain pure rangers and pure bards who are way way post cap? If they're okay then a theoretical sorcerer with a game breaking 20 some CS more than now should be okay too, right?

This is a bold move, but maybe we need a bold move, maybe it would energize the player base. It would finally and permanently establish what and where sorcery is. We're not the physical/elemental magic user, we're not the spiritualist priest, we're not the healer, we're the eye in the magical storm, fusion cuisine, captain planet, and the jack of all trades.

Also, pretty killer to have access to all three dispels right?

As opposed to now where we have mental spells, but aren't mentalists, we're some horrid mishmash hodgepodge of bandaids and broken dreams. Spells, abilities, powers, definitions, the justification for any of which is made up on the spot and then seemingly tossed out once it has fulfilled its purpose.

You could also then say cool things like "Demon magic is a magic of all spheres, so of course sorcerers would be the ones to summon them" or something like that. See, it just makes sense.

Fortune favors the bold.

>Didn't mean to double post, but these are the stat gains for being at level 20 in Minor Mental if a Sorcerer were to have access to it, with NO lore training:

>+30 DS
>+30 additional DS which applies to group (60 total DS)
>+26 Mental TD
>20% Stamina use reduction
>25% of disarming opponents if they hit your arms
>25% chance of rerolling a physical hit, like Fasthr's
>Automatic Double Leather armor with no spell hindrance/maneuver penalty. Getting to level 30 OR 5 ranks in Transformation Lore makes this Leather Breastplate, with both making Cuirbouilli.

>A capped 3x Sorcerer could swap out 20 ranks of Minor Spiritual at the loss of -20 DS and -2 CS, then take these for 60 DS (40 net gain), 6.66 CS (paltry net gain of 4.66, I know), and all of the above.

For what it's worth, you can only have either 1213 or 1216 active at a given time (focus spells; one per person), so it's not +60 DS and -20% stam costs. It's either +60 DS or +30 DS and -20% stam cost. Also, Blink is cool, but for the most part, if you're getting hit, you're probably still going to get hit on the second attempt.

oh, by the by, if you gave sorcerers minor mental. I say, let wizards, clerics, and empaths convert to sorcery. I bet you few would take you up on that offer, even with a 4th circle.